OT: UK \"price cap\"...

[Don Y]

On 8/31/2022 1:43 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:

On 2022-08-31 09:22, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
onsdag den 31. august 2022 kl. 02.34.03 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
On 8/30/2022 4:58 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 08/30/2022 03:16 PM, Don Y wrote:
I have never been fond of laptops -- small screens, small keyboards
and a PITA to maintain (hardware-wise). I have two \"small screen\"
machines that I\'ve kept -- mainly for backward support (old hardware
and/or software/apps).

I\'m not fond of them but when you\'re mobile and/or powering it from a small PV
panel a tower with a 25\" 4HD monitor doesn\'t cut it.
I try not to do any \"work\" when away from home. When traveling, I
carry a small laptop that doesn\'t even have an optical drive!

most likely place to find a laptop with an optical drive is the recycling bin
or a maybe a museum

When will we stop throwing away so much perfectly working hardware?
Sustainability? Sheesh!

Actually, I try to rescue as much kit as possible.
There\'s a *lot* to choose from! (one of the nonprofits
I work with processes over a million pounds of \"discards\"
annually; it\'s *really* hard to find homes for all that
stuff -- even giving it away!)

Each of my (6) Z800 workstations were rescues. Along
with all the RAM, disks, optical drives, HBAs, etc.
contained within. *And* the UPS-per-workstation!

My (30) monitors were all rescues. Recap or replace FETs in
the inverter and you\'ve got a \"new\" monitor!

I use a rescued netbook to maintain my \"distfiles\" copy;
drag out an external USB drive (with my present distfiles
collection) and let it rsync(1) to the master repository.
When done, close the netbook and but everything away!

But, this is not a sustainable rescue plan. I\'d never have
*purchased* this much kit so my efforts are artificially
reducing waste as having this much kit is inherently
wasteful (of a different sort). If we give laptops/computers
to disadvantaged kids, what happens when each of them *has*
a laptop/computer? What do we do with the *next* group of
discards??

When does the (lack of) demand feed back to the manufacturers?

 

[server]

On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 00:22:18 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
<langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

onsdag den 31. august 2022 kl. 02.34.03 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
On 8/30/2022 4:58 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 08/30/2022 03:16 PM, Don Y wrote:
I have never been fond of laptops -- small screens, small keyboards
and a PITA to maintain (hardware-wise). I have two \"small screen\"
machines that I\'ve kept -- mainly for backward support (old hardware
and/or software/apps).

I\'m not fond of them but when you\'re mobile and/or powering it from a small PV
panel a tower with a 25\" 4HD monitor doesn\'t cut it.
I try not to do any \"work\" when away from home. When traveling, I
carry a small laptop that doesn\'t even have an optical drive!

most likely place to find a laptop with an optical drive is the recycling bin or a maybe a museum

Can anyone recommend a good cd/bluray player, usb external to a
laptop? Ideally just something to plug in without a lot of software
install nonsense. This is a Win10 laptop.

Just for watching movies. Amazon preferred.

 

[Ricky]

On Monday, August 29, 2022 at 10:42:04 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Mon, 29 Aug 2022 09:51:19 +0100, Martin Brown
\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

On 28/08/2022 15:58, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sun, 28 Aug 2022 10:04:58 +0100, Martin Brown
\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:


The spineless and toothless UK regulator Offgem is as much use as a
chocolate fireguard.
[snip]

I would hope that you don\'t have anything like it. Although the Enron
scam failure suggests that you probably do in some fashion but that it
is geared to ensuring that suppliers can price gouge their customers.

Most states in the US have one or more regulated utilities, which
agree to supply power and gas for a guaranteed return on investment.
That has worked well for about a century, but politicians and greenies
are working hard to break it.

That sounds very socialist to me. Why aren\'t they allowed to obtain the
full market value for the product that they are selling?
It was recognized that some public services were fundamentally
monopolies, like the roads and the army, so the regulated,
guaranteed-return public service was invented.

The end-user price is probably similar to what it would be with
multiple competing providers, and likely less. It wouldn\'t make sense
to have competing power lines and water and sewer pipes.

Telecom/internet does now make sense to have competition, and that
drives down prices and profit.

Interesting. First you say the regulated monopoly provides prices as good as competition, then you say competition drives down prices. The reality is monopolistic utilities are allowed profit based on capital investment. As a result, they maximize investment to gain higher profits. Competitive services, like cable, push *expenses* down, including capital investment, meanwhile charging what the market will bear, to maximize profits. It is only competition that keeps the prices down.

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Monday, August 29, 2022 at 11:03:09 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Mon, 29 Aug 2022 00:40:15 -0700, Don Y
blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote:

On 8/28/2022 7:50 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 08/28/2022 05:08 PM, Don Y wrote:
I think dead pool affects the Navajo nation and places like Vegas, most
-- at
least in terms of electricity generation.

Two of the plants at Four Corners were retrofitted and are operational but
Navajoland has deeper problems:

https://www.indiancountryextension.org/how-are-navajo-people-getting-electricity-now

Native Americans are essentially screwed, regardless.
They now have houses, farms, trucks, horses, guns, medicine,
universities, written language, internet, and no more tribal warfare.

Not many seem to be returning to their pre-Columbian lifestyles.

Yes, the white man has been very good for Tonto! What was that thing we gave the Indians along with blankets? Oh, yeah, smallpox. We were very generous with that. That, and genocide. We can be very generous when we put our hearts and souls into it.

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 3:22:22 AM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:

onsdag den 31. august 2022 kl. 02.34.03 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
On 8/30/2022 4:58 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 08/30/2022 03:16 PM, Don Y wrote:
I have never been fond of laptops -- small screens, small keyboards
and a PITA to maintain (hardware-wise). I have two \"small screen\"
machines that I\'ve kept -- mainly for backward support (old hardware
and/or software/apps).

I\'m not fond of them but when you\'re mobile and/or powering it from a small PV
panel a tower with a 25\" 4HD monitor doesn\'t cut it.
I try not to do any \"work\" when away from home. When traveling, I
carry a small laptop that doesn\'t even have an optical drive!
most likely place to find a laptop with an optical drive is the recycling bin or a maybe a museum

I paid the higher price for a legitimate serial cable, but it needed drivers to be installed. They came on a mini-CD which I had no way of reading. WTF?

--

Rick C.

+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 4:43:42 AM UTC-4, Jeroen Belleman wrote:

On 2022-08-31 09:22, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
onsdag den 31. august 2022 kl. 02.34.03 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
On 8/30/2022 4:58 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 08/30/2022 03:16 PM, Don Y wrote:
I have never been fond of laptops -- small screens, small keyboards
and a PITA to maintain (hardware-wise). I have two \"small screen\"
machines that I\'ve kept -- mainly for backward support (old hardware
and/or software/apps).

I\'m not fond of them but when you\'re mobile and/or powering it from a small PV
panel a tower with a 25\" 4HD monitor doesn\'t cut it.
I try not to do any \"work\" when away from home. When traveling, I
carry a small laptop that doesn\'t even have an optical drive!

most likely place to find a laptop with an optical drive is the recycling bin or a maybe a museum

When will we stop throwing away so much perfectly working hardware?
Sustainability? Sheesh!

Working? Computer hardware has a shelf life like many other products. It doesn\'t matter if it is \"working\", it gets slower with age, because the tasks it has to perform become harder and require different hardware. My last laptop had at least four USB ports, all 2.0. My new one has USB 3.0 as well as one, a C type connector. There are times when the C connector is the only one that will work with a given device because that\'s what\'s on the cable it uses. Not interested in maintaining a fleet of adapters.

Requirements change. Computers don\'t have PCMCIA ports anymore either, or hard drives. They use flash drives. No, I don\'t look back nostalgically at all. Good riddance. Sometimes, I\'m sorry I waited for the old machine to break.

--

Rick C.

++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Jeroen Belleman]

On 2022-08-31 13:02, Ricky wrote:

On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 4:43:42 AM UTC-4, Jeroen Belleman
wrote:
On 2022-08-31 09:22, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
onsdag den 31. august 2022 kl. 02.34.03 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
On 8/30/2022 4:58 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 08/30/2022 03:16 PM, Don Y wrote:
I have never been fond of laptops -- small screens, small
keyboards and a PITA to maintain (hardware-wise). I have
two \"small screen\" machines that I\'ve kept -- mainly for
backward support (old hardware and/or software/apps).

I\'m not fond of them but when you\'re mobile and/or powering
it from a small PV panel a tower with a 25\" 4HD monitor
doesn\'t cut it.
I try not to do any \"work\" when away from home. When traveling,
I carry a small laptop that doesn\'t even have an optical
drive!

most likely place to find a laptop with an optical drive is the
recycling bin or a maybe a museum

When will we stop throwing away so much perfectly working
hardware? Sustainability? Sheesh!

Working? Computer hardware has a shelf life like many other
products. It doesn\'t matter if it is \"working\", it gets slower with
age, because the tasks it has to perform become harder and require
different hardware. My last laptop had at least four USB ports, all
2.0. My new one has USB 3.0 as well as one, a C type connector.
There are times when the C connector is the only one that will work
with a given device because that\'s what\'s on the cable it uses. Not
interested in maintaining a fleet of adapters.

Requirements change. Computers don\'t have PCMCIA ports anymore
either, or hard drives. They use flash drives. No, I don\'t look
back nostalgically at all. Good riddance. Sometimes, I\'m sorry I
waited for the old machine to break.

Requirements change, not for technical but for commercial reasons.
New ways to push lambda computer users into various incompatibility
alleys are invented all the time, just to convince them they need
new hardware. Oh, and new software too, in a never ending vicious
cycle.

USB was invented for that exact same reason.

Jeroen Belleman

 

[Don Y]

On 8/31/2022 5:12 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
> Requirements change, not for technical but for commercial reasons.

Exactly. A 20 year old computer *still* performs exactly the way it
did, 20 years ago. The instruction decoder hasn\'t worn out. Adding
2 + 3 doesn\'t give 4.9. Entering \"Hello, World!\" into a document
doesn\'t get stored as \"Wello, Horld!\".

Do you replace all of the appliances in your kitchen because stainless
is \"out\", nowadays?

And, repurchase your entire wardrobe each year because lapels are
now wider/narrower, hemlines higher/shorter, etc.?

If you encountered someone doing either of those things, wouldn\'t
you likely shake your head and mumble \"what an idiot!\"?

[For a real eye-opener, run a 1980-vintage app on a modern
computer. Then, realize how much you have LOST over the years
by chasing bloatware! \"Are the new features worth the lost
performance?\"]

New ways to push lambda computer users into various incompatibility
alleys are invented all the time, just to convince them they need
new hardware. Oh, and new software too, in a never ending vicious
cycle.

It\'s always amusing to compare what you can do *now* with what you
could do \"then\" (for some value of \'then\'). This will include new
capabilities GAINED as well as others LOST (OhMiGosh!)

And, ask yourself if those changes are worth the hassle to adopt.
What *new* set of bugs does version N+1 contain that I will now
have to identify vs. the *old* set of bugs in version N that
I\'ve already identified and developed workarounds for?

Sadly, most computer owners can only see the computer as a \"PC\";
they lack the skillsets to repurpose them for other uses.

> USB was invented for that exact same reason.

No, I think USB tried to address an interconnect issue that was
poorly handled with SCSI/FW/serial/parallel adapters -- without
incurring the costs of a network connection. It\'s definitely a
lot easier to plug a USB disk into a machine than a SCSI or FW
device.

Additionally, USB can be used on the motherboard to tie devices
to the core without the need to run a full address/data bus to
each peripheral (ditto SATA streamlining the old PATA interface)

OTOH, the cable mess hasn\'t really improved so wireless seems to
be the more appropriate solution (barring bandwidth constraints).

But, we\'ve already been through several major rehashes of USB
and there doesn\'t appear to be an end in sight. And, purchasing
devices for the \"current\" version often forces upgrades on hosts
(\"oh, gee, I don\'t have an xhci(4) driver installed!\")

[E.g., my scanner has a USB2 interface. I opted NOT to purchase the
model with the USB3 interface -- because I don\'t plan on using the
USB interface for anything other than basic configuration (e.g.,
setting up the ethernet port). So, I can scan documents to machines
that don\'t even *have* USB ports -- and certainly don\'t have DRIVERS
for a device that targets windows users! (and, when Windows 492 is
released, I don\'t expect the software/driver that runs presently
to be supported -- should I buy a new scanner??? Oh, my...) And,
I can do so at a sustained 100MB/s -- even if the target device is
in someone else\'s house!]

Designing products without \"ethernet\" (or other wireless) interfaces
nowadays is a losing proposition. Unless your market strategy is
to keep releasing incremental upgrades of the same basic device
(to customers who will foolishly keep repurchasing the same old kit)

 

[rbowman]

On 08/31/2022 12:18 AM, Don Y wrote:
> Don\'t cars still have CD drives?

I think mine does, or that may have been the last car. If it does it\'s
never been used.

 

[rbowman]

On 08/31/2022 02:43 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:

On 2022-08-31 09:22, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
onsdag den 31. august 2022 kl. 02.34.03 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
On 8/30/2022 4:58 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 08/30/2022 03:16 PM, Don Y wrote:
I have never been fond of laptops -- small screens, small keyboards
and a PITA to maintain (hardware-wise). I have two \"small screen\"
machines that I\'ve kept -- mainly for backward support (old hardware
and/or software/apps).

I\'m not fond of them but when you\'re mobile and/or powering it from
a small PV
panel a tower with a 25\" 4HD monitor doesn\'t cut it.
I try not to do any \"work\" when away from home. When traveling, I
carry a small laptop that doesn\'t even have an optical drive!

most likely place to find a laptop with an optical drive is the
recycling bin or a maybe a museum


When will we stop throwing away so much perfectly working hardware?
Sustainability? Sheesh!

It\'s been a long time and I can\'t remember the specifics but I picked up
an old computer to hack around with. The BIOS only N MB\'s. Small hard
drives were much more expensive than the current generation so I hit the
local computer shops looking for old drives. \'If we get them, we just
toss them in the dumpster.\'

That statement also defines the era; throwing electronics in the trash
wasn\'t a capital crime.

 

[rbowman]

On 08/31/2022 06:12 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
> USB was invented for that exact same reason.

Replacing RS-232 and DB-25 connectors didn\'t break my heart. Of course,
like everything else, they couldn\'t do it without spawning 4 or 5
incompatible connectors.

 

[rbowman]

On 08/31/2022 03:22 AM, Don Y wrote:

The \"laptop without an optical drive\" *predates* laptops
with optical drives. It has an *external* optical drive
(CD only as DVD didn\'t yet see mainstream use) that
connects to the laptop via a hardwired PCMCIA card.

And I still have the PCMCIA optical drive that goes with the Concerto...

 

[Jeroen Belleman]

On 2022-08-31 15:59, rbowman wrote:

On 08/31/2022 06:12 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
USB was invented for that exact same reason.

Replacing RS-232 and DB-25 connectors didn\'t break my heart. Of
course, like everything else, they couldn\'t do it without spawning 4
or 5 incompatible connectors.

Not to mention a whole zoo of opaque bespoke drivers.
I think the \'U\' needs to be revoked. What a mess.

Jeroen Belleman

 

[Don Y]

On 8/31/2022 6:55 AM, rbowman wrote:

On 08/31/2022 02:43 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
When will we stop throwing away so much perfectly working hardware?
Sustainability? Sheesh!

It\'s been a long time and I can\'t remember the specifics but I picked up an old
computer to hack around with. The BIOS only N MB\'s. Small hard drives were much
more expensive than the current generation so I hit the local computer shops
looking for old drives. \'If we get them, we just toss them in the dumpster.\'

I keep \"select\" old components for particular pieces of kit. E.g., 30 pin
SIMMs for the Voyager, FC/AL drives for the SB2000, IDE (pre-PATA) drives for
the Portable 386, etc.

That statement also defines the era; throwing electronics in the trash wasn\'t a
capital crime.

It\'s not a capital crime but highly wasteful. If you visit a e-waste recycler
you will be *stunned* (STUNNED!) by the amount of e-waste that even small
communities generate! If you take the time to actually pull items out of
the waste stream and \"plug them in\", you will discover than the majority
likely still work -- or, have minor problems.

Somebody just wanted to treat themselves to a newer model!

I used to spend a fair bit of time trying to find new homes for discarded
kit -- electric wheelchairs, DSOs, ARBs, programmable loads, PCs, laptops,
cell phones, etc.

But, soon realized that was a full-time job and there are only so many people
that I know, contacts that I have, etc.

[And there\'s only so much stuff I can personally find a legitimate use for!]

 

[Don Y]

On 8/31/2022 6:59 AM, rbowman wrote:

On 08/31/2022 06:12 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
USB was invented for that exact same reason.

Replacing RS-232 and DB-25 connectors didn\'t break my heart. Of course, like
everything else, they couldn\'t do it without spawning 4 or 5 incompatible
connectors.

Sadly, the amount of software required for a USB stack is considerably
more than even a full-featured serial port driver (and most folks probably
don\'t even bother with a formal driver).

And, they are flimsier *and* suffer from the same \"hard to insert
without looking, carefully\" problem that plagued earlier connectors.

Why can\'t everything be like a phone plug? (no top or bottom, left
or right, easy to locate the mating connector and align \"blind\")

 

[Don Y]

On 8/31/2022 6:47 AM, rbowman wrote:

On 08/31/2022 12:18 AM, Don Y wrote:
Don\'t cars still have CD drives?

I think mine does, or that may have been the last car. If it does it\'s never
been used.

We used the CD drive in the car to load all of SWMBO\'s music into the
internal disk drive -- more convenient than dealing with individual
CDs. But, it\'s not been used, since.

I keep my music collections on thumb drives (plugged into USB connector
hidden in the console) or phones (paired via bluetooth).

I have a pair of half-height CD/DVD writers in each workstation and
a CD/DVD writer in most laptops. So, ripping CD\'s isn\'t a problem.

[I\'m not sure the laptop drives can handle the \"small\" CD\'s -- or
irregular shaped ones. But, the half-height drives have no problems.]

But, *listening* to CDs is obsolescent. Transfer all the content onto a
server and access it \"randomly\", there (from multiple clients!)

 

[Don Y]

On 8/31/2022 7:03 AM, rbowman wrote:

On 08/31/2022 03:22 AM, Don Y wrote:
The \"laptop without an optical drive\" *predates* laptops
with optical drives. It has an *external* optical drive
(CD only as DVD didn\'t yet see mainstream use) that
connects to the laptop via a hardwired PCMCIA card.

And I still have the PCMCIA optical drive that goes with the Concerto...

I have a large collection of PCMCIA cards: modems, NICs, \"flash\"
cards, IDE adapters, even 300MB disk drives!

But, I\'ve not used any of them in ages (so, more candidates for
housecleaning!)

[I should check to see if all of my laptops support them and
set aside a small subset, just in case]

 

[Don Y]

On 8/31/2022 7:22 AM, Don Y wrote:

But, *listening* to CDs is obsolescent. Transfer all the content onto a
server and access it \"randomly\", there (from multiple clients!)

That\'s the point of the media server I\'m designing to replace SWMBOs
\"bookshelf hifis\"

 

[Mike Monett VE3BTI]

Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

When will we stop throwing away so much perfectly working hardware?
Sustainability? Sheesh!

Jeroen Belleman

As you state nearby, requirements change, hardware becomes faster, software
becomes more capable, etc. I had some computers from the Win95/98 era, but
the motherboards became so obsolete they were not worth keeping. I salvaged
the case and power supply, but the hard disc and most other accessories
were junk.

Some effort could be given to donating old equipment to charitable
organizations, but most kids nowadays only want cellphones. A few may want
laptops, and practically none want desktops.

There are organizations that resell Amazon returns, but they are not
interested in one or two units.

There are companies that specialize in reselling used computers at
attractive prices, such as Canada Computers:

https://www.canadacomputers.com/promotions/back-to-school-refurbished-
products

I have dealt with them in the past. Their equipment is good, but it may be
impossible to upgrade them with more memory or an additional disc drive.
The Dell computers I bought were useless, and I suspect the HP would be
also.

I am about to switch over to a new computer that uses a faster, more
capable CPU. My current computer will be a backup, but over time it will
become so far behind it is not worth keeping.

I could try to find someone interested in taking it, but it would take so
much time showing them how to run the programs it is not worth it. Also, I
would be at their beck and call every time they run into a slight problem
that the gift would become a liability.

So off to the dumpster it will go. It will eventually get there anyway.




--
MRM

 

[Martin Brown]

On 31/08/2022 11:48, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 00:22:18 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

onsdag den 31. august 2022 kl. 02.34.03 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
On 8/30/2022 4:58 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 08/30/2022 03:16 PM, Don Y wrote:
I have never been fond of laptops -- small screens, small keyboards
and a PITA to maintain (hardware-wise). I have two \"small screen\"
machines that I\'ve kept -- mainly for backward support (old hardware
and/or software/apps).

I\'m not fond of them but when you\'re mobile and/or powering it from a small PV
panel a tower with a 25\" 4HD monitor doesn\'t cut it.
I try not to do any \"work\" when away from home. When traveling, I
carry a small laptop that doesn\'t even have an optical drive!

most likely place to find a laptop with an optical drive is the recycling bin or a maybe a museum

Can anyone recommend a good cd/bluray player, usb external to a
laptop? Ideally just something to plug in without a lot of software
install nonsense. This is a Win10 laptop.

Best idea is buy one on holiday in a UK supermarket. Most of them are
chipped to be region free or can be trivially made so. They are cheap
consumer items now. Mine is a noname generic chosen for size and because
it was on offer at a ridiculously low price.

Enough movie buffs wanted to watch USA media that the UK became *the*
place to go for DVD players to be made region free. Even NASA used them!

If you want a burner it may need two USB ports to gain enough power.

Just for watching movies. Amazon preferred.

Rip the movie to the disk or a USB stick instead.


--
Regards,
Martin Brown