OT:Prevent Airline Hijacking

[Luhan Monat]

Hey, lots of brainpower in this ng. What about this...

In "Wrath of Kahn", they took back control of the Enterprise by a secret
override code known only to bridge officers.

Put this in every airliner, each with a unique and very secret code to
take control of it. Now, you just have to keep a few thousand codes
secret (1 floppy disc?) to protect the entire airline industry. This
prevents ever having to shoot down one of our own airliners.

--
Luhan Monat (luhanis 'at' yahoo 'dot' com)
"The future is not what it used to be..."
http://members.cox.net/berniekm

 

[Roger Hamlett]

"Luhan Monat" <x@y.z> wrote in message
news:R9vge.14860$tQ.2513@fed1read06...

Hey, lots of brainpower in this ng. What about this...

In "Wrath of Kahn", they took back control of the Enterprise by a secret
override code known only to bridge officers.

Put this in every airliner, each with a unique and very secret code to
take control of it. Now, you just have to keep a few thousand codes
secret (1 floppy disc?) to protect the entire airline industry. This
prevents ever having to shoot down one of our own airliners.
Firstly, you are assuming that the plane is controlled completely by

electronics. This is simply not true on most of the current fleet.
Then you assume that the control system will be able to work (jamming
radio signals is not hard).
Then you assume that it will be possible to keep something 'secret'. There
have been many bank robberies, where it was people at the bank, who
organised the crime.
'Very secret', just does not exist. If something has to be secret at this
level, you need it to be split into multiple parts, so that several people
are needed to get the complete code. This then raises the problem of
assembling all the people in the situation where this is needed.
A 'few thousand' codes!. This underestimates the aviation fleet by several
orders of magnitude.
it adds another failure point to potentially cause a crash. Can you
imagine the report after a plane hits a city, where the pilot was unable
to control the craft, because the software had decided there was a
lockout....

Best Wishes

 

[Bob Monsen]

Luhan Monat wrote:

Hey, lots of brainpower in this ng. What about this...

In "Wrath of Kahn", they took back control of the Enterprise by a secret
override code known only to bridge officers.

Put this in every airliner, each with a unique and very secret code to
take control of it. Now, you just have to keep a few thousand codes
secret (1 floppy disc?) to protect the entire airline industry. This
prevents ever having to shoot down one of our own airliners.

A 16 year old swedish kid was just arrested for organizing the breakins
to hundreds of classified systems, NASA, DOD, etc. We don't know enough
about security to protect important information. The codes would leak,
and we'd have terrorists flying planes into buildings by remote control.

The best way to prevent hijacking is to physically seal the
pilot/copilot off from the rest of the passengers, and to have armed
undercover marshalls amongst the passengers on random flights. Cheap and
effective.

---
Regards,
Bob Monsen

 

[John Fields]

On Wed, 11 May 2005 14:53:11 -0700, Luhan Monat <x@y.z> wrote:

Hey, lots of brainpower in this ng. What about this...

In "Wrath of Kahn", they took back control of the Enterprise by a secret
override code known only to bridge officers.

Put this in every airliner, each with a unique and very secret code to
take control of it. Now, you just have to keep a few thousand codes
secret (1 floppy disc?) to protect the entire airline industry. This
prevents ever having to shoot down one of our own airliners.

---
So what's to prevent the bridge crew from revealing the code at the
point of death or, if they're killed during the takeover, from
invoking it?

--
John Fields
Professional Circuit Designer

 

[Luhan Monat]

John Fields wrote:

On Wed, 11 May 2005 14:53:11 -0700, Luhan Monat <x@y.z> wrote:


Hey, lots of brainpower in this ng. What about this...

In "Wrath of Kahn", they took back control of the Enterprise by a secret
override code known only to bridge officers.

Put this in every airliner, each with a unique and very secret code to
take control of it. Now, you just have to keep a few thousand codes
secret (1 floppy disc?) to protect the entire airline industry. This
prevents ever having to shoot down one of our own airliners.


---
So what's to prevent the bridge crew from revealing the code at the
point of death or, if they're killed during the takeover, from
invoking it?

That was for reference only, was not trying to start a Star Trek thread
here.

--
Luhan Monat (luhanis 'at' yahoo 'dot' com)
"The future is not what it used to be..."
http://members.cox.net/berniekm

 

[John Fields]

On Wed, 11 May 2005 15:39:40 -0700, Bob Monsen <rcsurname@comcast.net>
wrote:

Luhan Monat wrote:
Hey, lots of brainpower in this ng. What about this...

In "Wrath of Kahn", they took back control of the Enterprise by a secret
override code known only to bridge officers.

Put this in every airliner, each with a unique and very secret code to
take control of it. Now, you just have to keep a few thousand codes
secret (1 floppy disc?) to protect the entire airline industry. This
prevents ever having to shoot down one of our own airliners.


A 16 year old swedish kid was just arrested for organizing the breakins
to hundreds of classified systems, NASA, DOD, etc. We don't know enough
about security to protect important information. The codes would leak,
and we'd have terrorists flying planes into buildings by remote control.

The best way to prevent hijacking is to physically seal the
pilot/copilot off from the rest of the passengers, and to have armed
undercover marshalls amongst the passengers on random flights. Cheap and
effective.

---
I agree. Passengers should also be informed that, if they're taken
hostage, their safety will become secondary to the effort required to
curtail the terrorist hijackers. As such, if you're going to die
anyway, why not kill the worthtless bastard sons of bitches who want
you to die before they try to kill you?

--
John Fields
Professional Circuit Designer

 

[Jim Yanik]

Bob Monsen <rcsurname@comcast.net> wrote in
news:5bmdneOLQeUvFB_fRVn-uw@comcast.com:

Luhan Monat wrote:
Hey, lots of brainpower in this ng. What about this...

In "Wrath of Kahn", they took back control of the Enterprise by a
secret override code known only to bridge officers.

Put this in every airliner, each with a unique and very secret code
to take control of it. Now, you just have to keep a few thousand
codes secret (1 floppy disc?) to protect the entire airline industry.
This prevents ever having to shoot down one of our own airliners.


A 16 year old swedish kid was just arrested for organizing the
breakins to hundreds of classified systems, NASA, DOD, etc. We don't
know enough about security to protect important information. The codes
would leak, and we'd have terrorists flying planes into buildings by
remote control.

The best way to prevent hijacking is to physically seal the
pilot/copilot off from the rest of the passengers, and to have armed
undercover marshalls amongst the passengers on random flights. Cheap
and effective.

---
Regards,
Bob Monsen

Armed Pilots would be even more effective.(one flies,one shoots)

Air Marshalls are neither cheap or plentiful,not even enough to cover the
East Coast flights.They also are EASILY spotted,they MUST wear a suit,even
on frights from hot climates.

Sealing off the cockpit;the current reinforced door was already breached by
cabin cleaners using a beverage cart,knocked it clear off the hinges.
Plus the door must be opened for toilet breaks,or for other reasons.
IOW,not practical.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

 

[Jim Yanik]

John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote in
news:2v25811eouoll1tqirin67q9qm7fo1tr3e@4ax.com:

On Wed, 11 May 2005 14:53:11 -0700, Luhan Monat <x@y.z> wrote:

Hey, lots of brainpower in this ng. What about this...

In "Wrath of Kahn", they took back control of the Enterprise by a secret
override code known only to bridge officers.

Put this in every airliner, each with a unique and very secret code to
take control of it. Now, you just have to keep a few thousand codes
secret (1 floppy disc?) to protect the entire airline industry. This
prevents ever having to shoot down one of our own airliners.

---
So what's to prevent the bridge crew from revealing the code at the
point of death or, if they're killed during the takeover, from
invoking it?

The terrorists would just learn avionics maintenance,or hire someone
knowledgable to give them the details.
(they had people smart enough to take flight schools for 9-11)

Aircraft are made in countries other than the US,too. Airbus is a
common,popular one.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

 

[RST Engineering (jw)]

A cut from a 1961 Bob Newhart comedy album:

"Ladies and Gentlemen, this is the inaugural flight of a completely
automated flight system. Every pain has been taken to ensure your safety
and we can promise you that nothing will go wrong ... go wrong ... go wrong
.... go wrong."



"Luhan Monat" <x@y.z> wrote in message
news:R9vge.14860$tQ.2513@fed1read06...

Hey, lots of brainpower in this ng. What about this...

"The future is not what it used to be..."

If you are going to quote Yogi Berra, quote him correctly: "The future
ain't what it used to be."

Jim

 

[Clifford Heath]

Luhan Monat wrote:

I believe that already happened once.

I don't, but that it was shot down. It was the right
thing to do, but also right to tell the public that
the pax were the heroes. Figure that!

 

[Bob Monsen]

Jim Yanik wrote:

Bob Monsen <rcsurname@comcast.net> wrote in
news:5bmdneOLQeUvFB_fRVn-uw@comcast.com:


Luhan Monat wrote:

Hey, lots of brainpower in this ng. What about this...

In "Wrath of Kahn", they took back control of the Enterprise by a
secret override code known only to bridge officers.

Put this in every airliner, each with a unique and very secret code
to take control of it. Now, you just have to keep a few thousand
codes secret (1 floppy disc?) to protect the entire airline industry.
This prevents ever having to shoot down one of our own airliners.


A 16 year old swedish kid was just arrested for organizing the
breakins to hundreds of classified systems, NASA, DOD, etc. We don't
know enough about security to protect important information. The codes
would leak, and we'd have terrorists flying planes into buildings by
remote control.

The best way to prevent hijacking is to physically seal the
pilot/copilot off from the rest of the passengers, and to have armed
undercover marshalls amongst the passengers on random flights. Cheap
and effective.

---
Regards,
Bob Monsen



Armed Pilots would be even more effective.(one flies,one shoots)

Perhaps, but pilots shouldn't really be worried about security, they
should be worried about flying. Making them into security guards is not
an effective use of talent. Perhaps hiring a few private security
guards, that could dress so as not to be noticed, who were armed with
non-lethal weapons might be a better way to go.

Sealing off the cockpit;the current reinforced door was already breached by
cabin cleaners using a beverage cart,knocked it clear off the hinges.
Plus the door must be opened for toilet breaks,or for other reasons.
IOW,not practical.

Actually, I was thinking total isolation of the pilots; no physical path
between cockpit and passenger zone, with no communication forward except
a single button in the passenger area, secured with a code, that meant
'emergency, land as soon as possible'. They would need their own
bathroom...

---
Regards,
Bob Monsen

 

[Luhan Monat]

"The future is not what it used to be..."


If you are going to quote Yogi Berra, quote him correctly: "The future
ain't what it used to be."

Jim

Well Jim, never knew that or ever heard the expression, made it up when
asked what I was thinking at the end of an EST seminar. The course
leader joked about getting t-shirts made.

Years later, heard the line (my version) quoted exactly in the series
Babylon 5. That seminar had a lot of people there, some from hollywood.

I'll look up the referece to Yogo Berra, thanks.


--
Luhan Monat (luhanis 'at' yahoo 'dot' com)
"The future is not what it used to be..."
http://members.cox.net/berniekm

 

[Luhan Monat]

Pooh Bear wrote:

Luhan Monat wrote:


Hey, lots of brainpower in this ng. What about this...

In "Wrath of Kahn", they took back control of the Enterprise by a secret
override code known only to bridge officers.

Put this in every airliner, each with a unique and very secret code to
take control of it. Now, you just have to keep a few thousand codes
secret (1 floppy disc?) to protect the entire airline industry. This
prevents ever having to shoot down one of our own airliners.


Oi !

Put your tin-foil hat back on.

Graham

Hey science fiction has many times come to spark an idea. Nuclear
submarines (US Navy) and matter-antimatter conversions (Fermi Lab) come
to mind.


--
Luhan Monat (luhanis 'at' yahoo 'dot' com)
"The future is not what it used to be..."
http://members.cox.net/berniekm

 

[Pooh Bear]

Luhan Monat wrote:

Hey, lots of brainpower in this ng. What about this...

In "Wrath of Kahn", they took back control of the Enterprise by a secret
override code known only to bridge officers.

Put this in every airliner, each with a unique and very secret code to
take control of it. Now, you just have to keep a few thousand codes
secret (1 floppy disc?) to protect the entire airline industry. This
prevents ever having to shoot down one of our own airliners.

Oi !

Put your tin-foil hat back on.

Graham

 

[Mac]

On Wed, 11 May 2005 22:13:22 +0000, Roger Hamlett wrote:

"Luhan Monat" <x@y.z> wrote in message
news:R9vge.14860$tQ.2513@fed1read06...
Hey, lots of brainpower in this ng. What about this...

In "Wrath of Kahn", they took back control of the Enterprise by a secret
override code known only to bridge officers.

Put this in every airliner, each with a unique and very secret code to
take control of it. Now, you just have to keep a few thousand codes
secret (1 floppy disc?) to protect the entire airline industry.

[snip]

A 'few thousand' codes!. This underestimates the aviation fleet by
several orders of magnitude.

Several, to me, means at least three. If a few thousand airplanes is three
orders of magnitude low, then you are saying that there are several
million large airplanes? This sounds a bit high to me.

Of course if you include small airplanes and general aviation and business
jets, then, yeah, there probably are millions. But I just don't believe
there are millions of large jet-powered airliners out there.

--Mac

 

[Mac]

On Wed, 11 May 2005 17:56:43 -0700, Bob Monsen wrote:

Jim Yanik wrote:
Bob Monsen <rcsurname@comcast.net> wrote in
news:5bmdneOLQeUvFB_fRVn-uw@comcast.com:


Luhan Monat wrote:

Hey, lots of brainpower in this ng. What about this...

In "Wrath of Kahn", they took back control of the Enterprise by a
secret override code known only to bridge officers.

Put this in every airliner, each with a unique and very secret code
to take control of it. Now, you just have to keep a few thousand
codes secret (1 floppy disc?) to protect the entire airline industry.
This prevents ever having to shoot down one of our own airliners.


A 16 year old swedish kid was just arrested for organizing the
breakins to hundreds of classified systems, NASA, DOD, etc. We don't
know enough about security to protect important information. The codes
would leak, and we'd have terrorists flying planes into buildings by
remote control.

The best way to prevent hijacking is to physically seal the
pilot/copilot off from the rest of the passengers, and to have armed
undercover marshalls amongst the passengers on random flights. Cheap
and effective.

---
Regards,
Bob Monsen



Armed Pilots would be even more effective.(one flies,one shoots)


Perhaps, but pilots shouldn't really be worried about security, they
should be worried about flying. Making them into security guards is not
an effective use of talent.

Maybe not, but there is no room in the cockpit for security guards, and I
think almost everyone would feel safer knowing the pilots are or might be
armed.

Perhaps hiring a few private security
guards, that could dress so as not to be noticed, who were armed with
non-lethal weapons might be a better way to go.

Why non-lethal? If there is a minor problem such as a drunk or rowdy
passenger, the other passengers can deal with it just fine. An undercover
security guard should reveal his or herself only when there is a
probability of hijacking or serious bodily injury, and in that situation,
it seems to me that lethal force might be the way to go. Especially if
there is only one guard and several hijackers.

Sealing off the cockpit;the current reinforced door was already breached by
cabin cleaners using a beverage cart,knocked it clear off the hinges.
Plus the door must be opened for toilet breaks,or for other reasons.
IOW,not practical.


Well, as part of a multi-tiered effort, it is probably not a bad idea. But

arming the pilots and or putting under-cover feds on the airplanes could
also be part of the solution.

Sometimes I joke that instead of taking away sharp things from passengers
they should give knives to every passenger as they board. Think about it.
The good guys always outnumber the bad guys. What we need is to make sure
the bad guys can't overcome this numerical superiority with weapons.

Strangely, I have never found anyone who agrees with me. ;-)

Actually, I was thinking total isolation of the pilots; no physical path
between cockpit and passenger zone, with no communication forward except
a single button in the passenger area, secured with a code, that meant
'emergency, land as soon as possible'. They would need their own
bathroom...

This would necessitate a redesign of the airplane interiors, I think. It
might even cause the airplane entrances to be moved. I'm pretty sure
that would be prohibitively expensive. I think this idea has about as much
chance as my idea of arming every passenger. ;-)

---
Regards,
Bob Monsen

--Mac

 

[Paul Hovnanian P.E.]

If you want to minimize the risk of your airplane being blown up by a
terrorist's bomb, bring a bomb of your own. The probability of there
being two bombs on board any one airplane are vanishingly small.

;-)

--
Paul Hovnanian mailtoaul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged
demo.

 

[Paul Hovnanian P.E.]

Jim Yanik wrote:

[snip]

Armed Pilots would be even more effective.(one flies,one shoots)

Air Marshalls are neither cheap or plentiful,not even enough to cover the
East Coast flights.They also are EASILY spotted,they MUST wear a suit,even
on frights from hot climates.

Why must they wear a suit? As a uniform? Not likely. If its to conceal a
weapon, there are numerous ways to carry concealed weapons that don't
require a suit.

OTOH, air marshalls are quite easy to spot (suit or not) if you know how
to identify someone carrying a weapon.

--
Paul Hovnanian mailtoaul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Ban the bomb. Save the world for conventional warfare.

 

[Paul Hovnanian P.E.]

Mac wrote:

[snip]

Why non-lethal? If there is a minor problem such as a drunk or rowdy
passenger, the other passengers can deal with it just fine. An undercover
security guard should reveal his or herself only when there is a
probability of hijacking or serious bodily injury, and in that situation,
it seems to me that lethal force might be the way to go. Especially if
there is only one guard and several hijackers.

That's standard operating procedure. It would be trivial for one
hijacker to start a commotion and have the marshalls try to break it up,
revealing themselves in the process.

Have members of the cabin crew equipped with cattle prods or something
similar to put down obnoxious passengers.

Sealing off the cockpit;the current reinforced door was already breached by
cabin cleaners using a beverage cart,knocked it clear off the hinges.
Plus the door must be opened for toilet breaks,or for other reasons.
IOW,not practical.


Well, as part of a multi-tiered effort, it is probably not a bad idea. But
arming the pilots and or putting under-cover feds on the airplanes could
also be part of the solution.

Sometimes I joke that instead of taking away sharp things from passengers
they should give knives to every passenger as they board. Think about it.
The good guys always outnumber the bad guys. What we need is to make sure
the bad guys can't overcome this numerical superiority with weapons.

Strangely, I have never found anyone who agrees with me. ;-)

A friend of mine (ex military intelligence) suggested allowing people
with concealed weapons permits to carry onboard aircraft. Aside from the
problem that there is no guarantee of a minimum level of competence
among civilians permitted to carry weapons (there really isn't for
police either), I don't think its a bad idea.

--
Paul Hovnanian mailtoaul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
At some point it becomes necessary to behead all the architects and
begin construction. -- Abi-Bar-Shim (Project Mgr. - Great Pyramid)

 

[Pooh Bear]

Luhan Monat wrote:

Pooh Bear wrote:


Luhan Monat wrote:


Hey, lots of brainpower in this ng. What about this...

In "Wrath of Kahn", they took back control of the Enterprise by a secret
override code known only to bridge officers.

Put this in every airliner, each with a unique and very secret code to
take control of it. Now, you just have to keep a few thousand codes
secret (1 floppy disc?) to protect the entire airline industry. This
prevents ever having to shoot down one of our own airliners.


Oi !

Put your tin-foil hat back on.

Graham


Hey science fiction has many times come to spark an idea. Nuclear
submarines (US Navy) and matter-antimatter conversions (Fermi Lab) come
to mind.

Most aircraft still have some form of mechanical linkage to the control
surfaces.

Dream on.