[OT] Photos from Brother Bush's Rape Room

[Scott Stephens]

I hate hypocrisy. So did Jesus. Did Bush forgive that murderer in Texas,
that found Jesus in jail and repented? No, he didn't. What does it mean
to forgive?

http://www.aztlan.net/iraqi_women_raped.htm

--
Scott

**********************************

DIY Piezo-Gyro, PCB Drill Bot & More Soon!

http://home.comcast.net/~scottxs/

**********************************

 

[Gilbert Mouget]

In article <Fajmc.28720$Ia6.4539796@attbi_s03>,
dated Thu, 06 May 2004 04:29:25 GMT,
Scott Stephens, <scottxs@comcast.net> says...

I hate hypocrisy. So did Jesus. Did Bush forgive that murderer in Texas,
that found Jesus in jail and repented? No, he didn't. What does it mean
to forgive?

http://www.aztlan.net/iraqi_women_raped.htm

According to James E.Thompson, P.E., you must not blame Bush,
but the "dumb-assed French"(sic)



--
"We, citizens of the world, call for the universal abolition of
the death penalty and for an immediate halt to executions of those
condemned to death throughout the world."

<URL:http://www.moratorium2000.org/action/petition.lasso>

 

[John S. Dyson]

In article <409a13a1$0$20748$626a14ce@news.free.fr>,
Gilbert Mouget <prenom.nom@free.fr.invalid> writes:

In article <Fajmc.28720$Ia6.4539796@attbi_s03>,
dated Thu, 06 May 2004 04:29:25 GMT,
Scott Stephens, <scottxs@comcast.net> says...


I hate hypocrisy. So did Jesus. Did Bush forgive that murderer in Texas,
that found Jesus in jail and repented? No, he didn't. What does it mean
to forgive?

http://www.aztlan.net/iraqi_women_raped.htm

According to James E.Thompson, P.E., you must not blame Bush,
but the "dumb-assed French"(sic)

Frankly, we need to blame those who disobeyed the

higher millitary and governmental officials. There is always
an implication to obey the Geneva convention and act lawfully
as a legitimate member of the legitimate American military. If
intelligence officers or rent-a-spooks led our young, immature
military people astray, then they are also to blame. Note
that the young idiot girl in some of those pictures was
a specialist private of some kind, and her position was that
of a paper pusher.

From what I have heard, the young girl shouldn't even have
been directly interrogating the prisoners, and it seems like
she was guilty of taking advantage of a photo-op. In fact,
those people who had the Iraqi prisoners in custody are likely
to blame for letting her interact with the prisoners. Perhaps
UCMJ needs to have a new set of rules and punishments for
'being stooopud.' If that young girl 'Lyndie' or somesuch
was really innocent of anything other than being stupid, then
I do regret the damage that will be done to her life anyway.
*She is a small town girl from WVa.

It really does look like there was a serious breakdown of
command structure somewhere at the level of the female
general, and she appeared not to be 'hands on' enough about
management.

If you want to blame the cause of the understaffing of the
military in general (and don't assume that we have enough people
without alot of pain to staff up Iraq very much more than it already
is), then lets look for the reasons why the military was understaffed
and the reasons why the intelligence organizations had been so
incompetent in dealing with the situation. (Hint: it takes more
than three years to build up the military and intelligence services,
but it only takes a few idiotic downsizing decisions at high levels.)

John

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Fri, 7 May 2004 04:32:08 +0000 (UTC), toor@iquest.net (John S.
Dyson) wrote:

In article <409a13a1$0$20748$626a14ce@news.free.fr>,
Gilbert Mouget <prenom.nom@free.fr.invalid> writes:
[snip]
but the "dumb-assed French"
but the "dumb-assed French"
but the "dumb-assed French"
but the "dumb-assed French"
but the "dumb-assed French"
but the "dumb-assed French"

[snip]
I do regret the damage that will be done to her life anyway.
*She is a small town girl from WVa.

[snip]

I've been quite busy this week and haven't read the papers (one left,
one right).

Is she really "a small town girl from WVa"?

That must be my problem ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[Rich Grise]

"Gilbert Mouget" <prenom.nom@free.fr.invalid> wrote in message
news:409a13a1$0$20748$626a14ce@news.free.fr...

--
"We, citizens of the world, call for the universal abolition of
the death penalty and for an immediate halt to executions of those
condemned to death throughout the world."

URL:http://www.moratorium2000.org/action/petition.lasso

I thought up the perfect punishment instead of death. And for any

heinous crime, for that matter.

One of the bad things about any kind of "punishment" is that
it's inflicted on the person's body, when the mind is actually
the culprit.

So, here's my idea. A certain amount of time in solitary,
up to life.

And I mean _solitary._ Not even guards. Just a food dispenser.
And give him all the creature comforts - at least, don't inflict
physical discomfort on the criminal, but don't let him have
any communication with any living human. And for varying
degrees of heinousness, there could be varying degrees of
isolation. Nowadays, they can read books, and I guess some
of them can watch TV, or get visistors, and they have recreation
with the other prisoners, and I've heard some of them even can
get on the internet!

So, for varying degrees of punishment, take away those things
in stages, as it were. And for the very worst, the ones that
we used to kill, absolutely no contact with anything. No
magazines, no mail, nothing to write with or on, no nothing.

They'd probably end up dead anyway. Well, they certainly would
eventually, but I imagine if I were in that situation, with
no hope of getting out, I'd just quit eating and let myself
fade away.

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Scott Stephens]

Rich Grise wrote:

I thought up the perfect punishment instead of death. And for any
heinous crime, for that matter.
....
And I mean _solitary._ Not even guards. Just a food dispenser.
And give him all the creature comforts - at least, don't inflict
physical discomfort on the criminal, but don't let him have
any communication with any living human.
....
They'd probably end up dead anyway. Well, they certainly would
eventually, but I imagine if I were in that situation, with
no hope of getting out, I'd just quit eating and let myself
fade away.

I think that's the original concept behind the "penitentiary", which the
Quakers came up with around the turn of the century.

http://www.northstargallery.com/ESP/ :
"PROJECT CONCEPT – Eastern State Penitentiary embodied Quaker ideals
about the nature of man and the redemptive powers of solitary reflection
and penitence. The Founders of Eastern State believed that solitary
confinement would heal the soul and allow time and opportunity to
reflect on a life of crime and to repent of past sins, transitioning the
individual from sinner to saint. Within the "house of repentance," it
was believed that prisoners would be able to reform themselves through
solitude, work and penance. Practice and architecture reinforced the
requirement to "die to self" an inherent requirement for transformation."

I find it much easier to loath the system that allowed people to get out
of hand, than the sadistic guards. Bad systems degrade people without
objective values into monsters:

---

Fine Line Between 'Normal' and 'Monster'
'71 Simulation Turned College Students Into Guards, Prisoners for Two Weeks

By JOHN SCHWARTZ, The New York Times

(May 6) - In 1971 researchers at Stanford University created a simulated prison
in the basement of the campus psychology building. They randomly assigned 24
students to be either prison guards or prisoners for two weeks.

Within days the "guards" had become swaggering and sadistic, to the point of
placing bags over the prisoners' heads, forcing them to strip naked and
encouraging them to perform sexual acts.

The landmark Stanford experiment and studies like it give insight into how
ordinary people can, under the right circumstances, do horrible things —
including the mistreatment of prisoners at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.

What is the distance between "normal" and "monster"? Can anyone become a
torturer?

Such questions, explored over the decades by philosophers and social
scientists, come up anew whenever shocking cases of abuse burst upon the
national consciousness, whether in the interrogation room, the police station
or the high school locker room.

Hannah Arendt coined the phrase "banality of evil" to describe the very
averageness of the Nazi leader Adolf Eichmann. Social psychologists pursued the
question more systematically, conducting experiments that demonstrated the
power of situations to determine human behavior.

Dr. Philip G. Zimbardo, a leader of the Stanford prison study, said that while
the rest of the world was shocked by the images from Iraq, "I was not surprised
that it happened."

"I have exact, parallel pictures of prisoners with bags over their heads," from
the 1971 study, he said.

At one point, he said, the guards in the fake prison ordered their prisoners to
strip and used a rudimentary sex joke to humiliate them.

Professor Zimbardo ended the experiment the next day, more than a week earlier
than planned.

Prisons, where the balance of power is so unequal, tend to be brutal and
abusive places unless great effort is made to control the guards' base
impulses, he said. At Stanford and in Iraq, he added: "It's not that we put bad
apples in a good barrel. We put good apples in a bad barrel. The barrel
corrupts anything that it touches."

To the extent that the Abu Ghraib guards acted, as some have said, at the
request of intelligence officers, other studies, performed 40 years ago by Dr.
Stanley Milgram, then a psychology professor at Yale, can also offer some
explanation, researchers said. In a series of experiments, he told test
subjects that they were taking part in a study about teaching through
punishment.


"I was not surprised that it happened."
-Dr. Philip G. Zimbardo, a leader of the Stanford prison study

The subjects were instructed by a researcher in a white lab coat to deliver
electric shocks to another participant, the "student."

Every time the student gave an incorrect answer to a question, the subject was
ordered to deliver a shock. The shocks started small but became progressively
stronger at the researcher's insistence, with labels on the machine indicating
jolts of increasing intensity — up to a whopping 450 volts.

The shock machine was a cleverly designed fake, though, and the victims were
actors who moaned and wailed. But to the test subjects the experience was all
too real.

Most showed anguish as they carried out the instructions. A stunning 65 percent
of those taking part obeyed the commands to administer the electric shocks all
the way up to the last, potentially lethal switch, marked "XXX."

Dr. Charles B. Strozier, director of the Center on Terrorism and Public Safety
at John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York, said the prison guards in
Iraq might feel that the emotions of war and the threat of terrorism gave them
permission to dehumanize the prisoners.

"There has been a serious, siesmic change in attitude after 9/11 in the country
in its attitude about torture," Dr. Strozier said, a shift that is evident in
polling and in public debate. In the minds of many Americans, he said, "it's
O.K. to torture now, to get information that will save us from terrorism."

Craig W. Haney, a professor of psychology at the University of California,
Santa Cruz, who was one of the lead researchers in the Stanford experiment,
says prison abuses can be prevented by regular training and discipline, along
with outside monitoring.

Without outsiders watching, Professor Haney said, "what's regarded as
appropriate treatment can shift over time," so "they don't realize how badly
they're behaving."

"If anything," he said, "the smiling faces in those pictures suggest a total
loss of perspective, a drift in the standard of humane treatment."

Experiments like those at Stanford and Yale are no longer done, in part because
researchers have decided that they involved so much deception and such high
levels of stress — four of the Stanford prisoners suffered emotional
breakdowns — that the experiments are unethical.


05-06-04 11:18 EDT

Copyright Š 2004 The New York Times Company.

--
Scott

**********************************

DIY Piezo-Gyro, PCB Drill Bot & More Soon!

http://home.comcast.net/~scottxs/

**********************************

 

[John Fields]

On Fri, 07 May 2004 23:55:12 GMT, "Rich Grise" <null@example.net>
wrote:

"Gilbert Mouget" <prenom.nom@free.fr.invalid> wrote in message
news:409a13a1$0$20748$626a14ce@news.free.fr...

--
"We, citizens of the world, call for the universal abolition of
the death penalty and for an immediate halt to executions of those
condemned to death throughout the world."

URL:http://www.moratorium2000.org/action/petition.lasso

I thought up the perfect punishment instead of death. And for any
heinous crime, for that matter.

One of the bad things about any kind of "punishment" is that
it's inflicted on the person's body, when the mind is actually
the culprit.

So, here's my idea. A certain amount of time in solitary,
up to life.

And I mean _solitary._ Not even guards. Just a food dispenser.
And give him all the creature comforts - at least, don't inflict
physical discomfort on the criminal, but don't let him have
any communication with any living human. And for varying
degrees of heinousness, there could be varying degrees of
isolation. Nowadays, they can read books, and I guess some
of them can watch TV, or get visistors, and they have recreation
with the other prisoners, and I've heard some of them even can
get on the internet!

So, for varying degrees of punishment, take away those things
in stages, as it were. And for the very worst, the ones that
we used to kill, absolutely no contact with anything. No
magazines, no mail, nothing to write with or on, no nothing.

They'd probably end up dead anyway. Well, they certainly would
eventually, but I imagine if I were in that situation, with
no hope of getting out, I'd just quit eating and let myself
fade away.

---
Not bad, but how about this one:

Let's say you did some particularly horrible thing and you've been
condemned to death for it, and that the method of execution is the
administration of a particularly painful, slow acting gas. Yeah,
yeah, I know. Cruel and unusual, blah, blah, blah...

On top of it all, your execution date isn't firmly defined, but is
read to you, in court, as "Not sooner than (some date) and not later
than (some date)."

Then you're led away, processed, and eventually led to and locked into
your cell on death row, which you notice is air-conditioned and quite
comfortable with the shower and all. Unusual too, in that you notice
that when you try to reach out into the hallway, past the bars, you
can't because of the thick polycarbonate sheet extending from floor to
ceiling across the entire front of the cell... There's even a seal
around the sheet covering the door.

"Hmm..." you think, "they must really be worried about me escaping!"

Then you hear this funny sound coming from the shower and when you go
to see what it is you see this green cloud coming out of the shower
head which falls toward the floor and you notice that the air coming
out of the A/C has stopped and that the cloud on the floor is rising.

Frantically, you turn the faucet on the shower back and forth to try
to make the green cloud stop, but to no avail. It just keeps rising,
and in an attept to get the attention of the guards you start beating
on the cell door, which brings the guards around, but they just smile
at you as the gas slowly rises to the ceiling.

After you've held your breath as long as you can and you finally have
to let go and breathe, "Dirtyrottenmotherfuckingsonsofbitches" is all
you can think of as your lungs explode and the lights go out.

Later on, when you wake up and your breakfast is on the floor, waiting
for you, you start to think about that the "Not later than" date is
ten years away...

--
John Fields

 

[Winfield Hill]

John Fields wrote...

After you've held your breath as long as you can and you finally have
to let go and breathe, "Dirtyrottenmotherfuckingsonsofbitches" is all
you can think of as your lungs explode and the lights go out.

Later on, when you wake up and your breakfast is on the floor, waiting
for you, you start to think about that the "Not later than" date is
ten years away...

Perhaps you missed your calling John, as a mystery writer.

Thanks,
- Win

(email: use hill_at_rowland-dot-org for now)

 

[Paul Burridge]

On Fri, 07 May 2004 23:55:12 GMT, "Rich Grise" <null@example.net>
wrote:

So, here's my idea. A certain amount of time in solitary,
up to life.

And I mean _solitary._ Not even guards. Just a food dispenser.

It's already been done, I believe - and in America. Some guy who
committed the 'ultimate sin' of killing a warden has just such a
regime - sine die!
--

"What is now proved was once only imagin'd." - William Blake, 1793.

 

[Nico Coesel]

"Rich Grise" <null@example.net> wrote:

"Gilbert Mouget" <prenom.nom@free.fr.invalid> wrote in message
news:409a13a1$0$20748$626a14ce@news.free.fr...

--
"We, citizens of the world, call for the universal abolition of
the death penalty and for an immediate halt to executions of those
condemned to death throughout the world."

URL:http://www.moratorium2000.org/action/petition.lasso

I thought up the perfect punishment instead of death. And for any
heinous crime, for that matter.

One of the bad things about any kind of "punishment" is that
it's inflicted on the person's body, when the mind is actually
the culprit.

So, here's my idea. A certain amount of time in solitary,
up to life.

And I mean _solitary._ Not even guards. Just a food dispenser.
And give him all the creature comforts - at least, don't inflict
isolation. Nowadays, they can read books, and I guess some
of them can watch TV, or get visistors, and they have recreation
with the other prisoners, and I've heard some of them even can
get on the internet!

Hmm, over here prisoners can even have S** with their partner (or paid
companion) from outside prison.

--
Reply to nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
Bedrijven en winkels vindt U op www.adresboekje.nl

 

[Ralph Christopher]

John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Fri, 07 May 2004 23:55:12 GMT, "Rich Grise" <null@example.net
wrote:

"Gilbert Mouget" <prenom.nom@free.fr.invalid> wrote in message
news:409a13a1$0$20748$626a14ce@news.free.fr...

--
"We, citizens of the world, call for the universal abolition of
the death penalty and for an immediate halt to executions of those
condemned to death throughout the world."

URL:http://www.moratorium2000.org/action/petition.lasso

I thought up the perfect punishment instead of death. And for any
heinous crime, for that matter.

One of the bad things about any kind of "punishment" is that
it's inflicted on the person's body, when the mind is actually
the culprit.

So, here's my idea. A certain amount of time in solitary,
up to life.

And I mean _solitary._ Not even guards. Just a food dispenser.
And give him all the creature comforts - at least, don't inflict
physical discomfort on the criminal, but don't let him have
any communication with any living human. And for varying
degrees of heinousness, there could be varying degrees of
isolation. Nowadays, they can read books, and I guess some
of them can watch TV, or get visistors, and they have recreation
with the other prisoners, and I've heard some of them even can
get on the internet!

So, for varying degrees of punishment, take away those things
in stages, as it were. And for the very worst, the ones that
we used to kill, absolutely no contact with anything. No
magazines, no mail, nothing to write with or on, no nothing.

They'd probably end up dead anyway. Well, they certainly would
eventually, but I imagine if I were in that situation, with
no hope of getting out, I'd just quit eating and let myself
fade away.

---
Not bad, but how about this one:

Let's say you did some particularly horrible thing and you've been
condemned to death for it, and that the method of execution is the
administration of a particularly painful, slow acting gas. Yeah,
yeah, I know. Cruel and unusual, blah, blah, blah...

On top of it all, your execution date isn't firmly defined, but is
read to you, in court, as "Not sooner than (some date) and not later
than (some date)."

Then you're led away, processed, and eventually led to and locked into
your cell on death row, which you notice is air-conditioned and quite
comfortable with the shower and all. Unusual too, in that you notice
that when you try to reach out into the hallway, past the bars, you
can't because of the thick polycarbonate sheet extending from floor to
ceiling across the entire front of the cell... There's even a seal
around the sheet covering the door.

"Hmm..." you think, "they must really be worried about me escaping!"

Then you hear this funny sound coming from the shower and when you go
to see what it is you see this green cloud coming out of the shower
head which falls toward the floor and you notice that the air coming
out of the A/C has stopped and that the cloud on the floor is rising.

Frantically, you turn the faucet on the shower back and forth to try
to make the green cloud stop, but to no avail. It just keeps rising,
and in an attept to get the attention of the guards you start beating
on the cell door, which brings the guards around, but they just smile
at you as the gas slowly rises to the ceiling.

After you've held your breath as long as you can and you finally have
to let go and breathe, "Dirtyrottenmotherfuckingsonsofbitches" is all
you can think of as your lungs explode and the lights go out.

Later on, when you wake up and your breakfast is on the floor, waiting
for you, you start to think about that the "Not later than" date is
ten years away...

Not so new.

When reading this vivid description, the showers of death at Auschwitz
immediately came to my mind.

I find it scary to read this exactly 59 years after the end of WW II
from an American.

Is America finally taking technological leadership also in this
respect?

Der Tod war (?) ein Meister aus Deutschland.

Ralph, Berlin

--
Ralph Christopher

 

[John Fields]

On Sun, 09 May 2004 19:25:07 +0200, Ralph Christopher
<ralphc@snafu.de> wrote:

When reading this vivid description, the showers of death at Auschwitz
immediately came to my mind.

---
A fantasy where a condemned piece of shit is tortured by being made to
live and relive his last moments of terror and, perhaps, reflect on
the terror which he caused innocents to suffer is vastly different
from the reality the innocents suffered in Auschwitz.

Perhaps you would be happier if the condemned prisoner was Aichmann?

Go for it; write your own "politically correct" story and stop whining
because I write something which makes you squirm.
---

I find it scary to read this exactly 59 years after the end of WW II
from an American.

---
Get over it. It was US who closed the death camps and have done
everything in our power to bring the Jews back into a sovereign
position in the world since then, so I hardly think your fear is
justified.
---

Is America finally taking technological leadership also in this
respect?

---
What do you think?

--
John Fields

 

[S.M.Taylor]

John Fields wrote:

Get over it. It was US who closed the death camps and have done
everything in our power to bring the Jews back into a sovereign
position in the world since then, so I hardly think your fear is
justified.
Ahem. The UK was there with you then, and liberated several camps, as

did the Russians. We were with you then, and we are with you now.

Steve

 

[John Fields]

On Sun, 09 May 2004 23:18:53 +0100, "S.M.Taylor" <smtaylor@iee.org>
wrote:

John Fields wrote:

Get over it. It was US who closed the death camps and have done
everything in our power to bring the Jews back into a sovereign
position in the world since then, so I hardly think your fear is
justified.
Ahem. The UK was there with you then, and liberated several camps, as
did the Russians. We were with you then, and we are with you now.

---
Thank you, and I apologize for the slight. It was unintended, and
you're right, of course.

--
John Fields

 

[Paul Burridge]

On Sun, 09 May 2004 19:25:07 +0200, Ralph Christopher
<ralphc@snafu.de> wrote:

Not so new.

When reading this vivid description, the showers of death at Auschwitz
immediately came to my mind.

As I'm sure it did to all of us.
Here's a similar outlandish idea that's not loaded with such
remembrances:
Take convicted prisoner and place in cell (solitary of course). The
sentence being death, by means being impaled on foot-long steel
spikes and left to die on them. The spikes are located 10 feet below
the cell floor, which at any time in the next three months can simply
drop away without a second's warning, leaving the captive to fall to
his fate. During the three month period, there will be "high-risk"
days and "low-risk" days of the floor disappearing and made known to
the captive, but even on low risk days, the threat still remains a
distinct possibility. Of course, just to be even nastier, although you
tell the prisoner that the floor can fall in at any time in the next 3
months, you actually leave it until say, the penultimate day to
activate the floor drop. Nasty.
Oh yeah, and then get Lindy England to pose pointing at the dying
man's genitals for a few photos.
--

"What is now proved was once only imagin'd." - William Blake, 1793.

 

[Product developer]

nico@puntnl.niks (Nico Coesel) wrote in message news:<409e55f2.702894468@news.planet.nl>...

"Rich Grise" <null@example.net> wrote:

"Gilbert Mouget" <prenom.nom@free.fr.invalid> wrote in message
news:409a13a1$0$20748$626a14ce@news.free.fr...

--
"We, citizens of the world, call for the universal abolition of
the death penalty and for an immediate halt to executions of those
condemned to death throughout the world."

URL:http://www.moratorium2000.org/action/petition.lasso

I thought up the perfect punishment instead of death. And for any
heinous crime, for that matter.

One of the bad things about any kind of "punishment" is that
it's inflicted on the person's body, when the mind is actually
the culprit.

So, here's my idea. A certain amount of time in solitary,
up to life.

And I mean _solitary._ Not even guards. Just a food dispenser.
And give him all the creature comforts - at least, don't inflict
isolation. Nowadays, they can read books, and I guess some
of them can watch TV, or get visistors, and they have recreation
with the other prisoners, and I've heard some of them even can
get on the internet!

Hmm, over here prisoners can even have S** with their partner (or paid
companion) from outside prison.

I have the ultimate punishment. Force the prisioner to watch Spike Lee
and Micheal Moore movies until hi head pops off.

 

[John Fields]

On 8 May 2004 12:13:28 -0700, Winfield Hill
<Winfield_member@newsguy.com> wrote:

John Fields wrote...

After you've held your breath as long as you can and you finally have
to let go and breathe, "Dirtyrottenmotherfuckingsonsofbitches" is all
you can think of as your lungs explode and the lights go out.

Later on, when you wake up and your breakfast is on the floor, waiting
for you, you start to think about that the "Not later than" date is
ten years away...

Perhaps you missed your calling John, as a mystery writer.

---
Perhaps. I tried writing fiction when I was younger, but it was all
pretty awful.

Now that I'm older I seem to be able to stretch an idea into a story
with a beginning, a middle, and an end, and commit it to paper in a
way that keeps the reader entertained.

Matter of fact, I've got a story I'm trying to turn into a screenplay,
and if it works it's going to be _very_ interesting, I'm sure!

--
John Fields

 

[Ralph Christopher]

John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Sun, 09 May 2004 19:25:07 +0200, Ralph Christopher
ralphc@snafu.de> wrote:


When reading this vivid description, the showers of death at Auschwitz
immediately came to my mind.

---
A fantasy where a condemned piece of shit is tortured by being made to
live and relive his last moments of terror and, perhaps, reflect on
the terror which he caused innocents to suffer is vastly different
from the reality the innocents suffered in Auschwitz.

This depends on if you want it to become reality. Eichmann did. Do
you?

Perhaps you would be happier if the condemned prisoner was Aichmann?

He would have loved your fantasy...

Go for it; write your own "politically correct" story and stop whining
because I write something which makes you squirm.

I won`t. I have read and learned from sci.electronics.* for 15 years
now and what really disturbs me is the rude and sometimes offensive
and inhumane language that is being used here in political discussions
lately. I think that some of the greatest talents in the field are
contributing to this group technically and I would hate to see some
of them go away.

Remember that probably a few thousend people are following these
discussions worldwide, maybe even some students at Baghdad university
who are wondering if this is the way things are dicussed in a free
democracy.

---

I find it scary to read this exactly 59 years after the end of WW II
from an American.

---
Get over it. It was US who closed the death camps and have done
everything in our power to bring the Jews back into a sovereign
position in the world since then, so I hardly think your fear is
justified.

I hope you are right but just a few remarks: It took Hitler 9 years
after writing his famous book to become elected in a free and
democratic election by the majority of the generation of my
grandparents of which some became the monsters who built the death
camps.
After the war it took us 50 years to become the pacifist, whining,
illoyal and unthankful people that some of you consider us.

My point: as you can see societies will change. By using a certain
kind of language you can break moral barriers making way for extremist
views.

We have seen it happening.

---

Is America finally taking technological leadership also in this
respect?

---
What do you think?

Ralph, Berlin

--
Ralph Christopher

 

[John Fields]

On Mon, 10 May 2004 20:59:05 +0200, Ralph Christopher
<ralphc@snafu.de> wrote:

John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Sun, 09 May 2004 19:25:07 +0200, Ralph Christopher
ralphc@snafu.de> wrote:


When reading this vivid description, the showers of death at Auschwitz
immediately came to my mind.

---
A fantasy where a condemned piece of shit is tortured by being made to
live and relive his last moments of terror and, perhaps, reflect on
the terror which he caused innocents to suffer is vastly different
from the reality the innocents suffered in Auschwitz.

This depends on if you want it to become reality. Eichmann did. Do
you?

---
Stop trying to put me on the defensive. I wrote a little story about
a way to make a single deserving individual live a recurring nightmare
and you're trying to equate that to Eichmann's authoring the death of
millions.
---

Perhaps you would be happier if the condemned prisoner was Aichmann?

He would have loved your fantasy...

---
You didn't answer the question.

Perhaps he would have, and perhaps he also loved a good bottle of
wine. I know I do; does that make me a mass murderer also?
---

Go for it; write your own "politically correct" story and stop whining
because I write something which makes you squirm.

I won`t. I have read and learned from sci.electronics.* for 15 years
now and what really disturbs me is the rude and sometimes offensive
and inhumane language that is being used here in political discussions
lately.

---
If you've been around here for 15 years and you're still as
thin-skinned as you profess to be, I suggest your visits are far from
frequent.
---

I think that some of the greatest talents in the field are
contributing to this group technically and I would hate to see some
of them go away.

---
Not only technically, but socially as well and if you've been around
here for 15 years you should know who's hard-core and who isn't and
who isn't going to get spooked by language and run away.
---

Remember that probably a few thousend people are following these
discussions worldwide, maybe even some students at Baghdad university
who are wondering if this is the way things are dicussed in a free
democracy.

---
As strange as it may seem to you, this is _exactly_ how things are
discussed in a free society. Who the fuck do you think you are,
anyway, to tell _anyone_ to stop writing about what they want to or
in the way they want to because it upsets your sensibilities?
---

I find it scary to read this exactly 59 years after the end of WW II
from an American.

---
Get over it. It was US who closed the death camps and have done
everything in our power to bring the Jews back into a sovereign
position in the world since then, so I hardly think your fear is
justified.

I hope you are right but just a few remarks: It took Hitler 9 years
after writing his famous book to become elected in a free and
democratic election by the majority of the generation of my
grandparents of which some became the monsters who built the death
camps.
After the war it took us 50 years to become the pacifist, whining,
illoyal and unthankful people that some of you consider us.
My point: as you can see societies will change. By using a certain
kind of language you can break moral barriers making way for extremist
views.

---
And by _not_ using certain kinds of language you can hasten the
collapse of those moral barriers and allow the extremist views to
become real. Case in point, had your grandparents' generation been
outraged and vocal instead of silently buying into Hitler's "We're
better than they are" trap, Auschwitz would never have happened.
---

We have seen it happening.

---
We all have. You _allowed_ it to happen.

--
John Fields

 

[Tom Del Rosso]

In news:Fajmc.28720$Ia6.4539796@attbi_s03,
Scott Stephens typed:

http://www.aztlan.net/iraqi_women_raped.htm

In the heading: "US based Jewish pornographers".

This new set of pictures may be real, but that kind of puts the source
into question.