OT: Other aspects of health

On Wednesday, 1 April 2020 11:26:28 UTC+1, Rick C wrote:

On Wednesday, April 1, 2020 at 5:35:15 AM UTC-4, tabby wrote:
On Tuesday, 31 March 2020 02:06:12 UTC+1, Rick C wrote:
On Monday, March 30, 2020 at 7:28:26 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:
On 3/27/2020 1:14 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Friday, March 27, 2020 at 1:35:16 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:

3 oz of lettuce or romaine is only 1 gram of Carbs,

It also has only 10 calories most of which are carbs. This is another water food only providing vitamin K in useful amounts.


1.2oz of cauliflower is 1 gram of carb,

Another water vegetable with only 5 g of carbs and 2 g of protein in 100 grams. The rest is mostly water.


1 oz of broccoli is 1 gram of carb,

Same story a cup (91 g) only providing 2% of the daily calorie intake and 5% of the protein. A tasty food, but not the type of veggie you can limit yourself to unless you want to eat a LOT of it. A single serving is good for Vit C, K and folate though.


3- 7" celery stalks is 1 gram of carb,
3 med spears of asparagus is 1 carb,
1oz of cabbage is 1 gram of carbs,
2.7oz of spinach is 1 gram of carb,

The list goes on. These foods are all similar with a high water content the actual amount of most nutrients is low in a serving other than vitamin K and folate. The total amount of nutrients (carb, fat, protein) in these veggies is less than 10%. Compare to beans, potatoes and beef which have much higher ratios of nutrition to total weight. Or better yet, don't compare by weight. Look at the nutritional value of the servings you are suggesting.

Carbs per 100g are what count, as total veg quantity is the deciding factor on veg intake.

100 g of what? So water is an important part of the veggie?

Who cares how much the food weighs??? What is important is the nutrition content.

Lol. Sorry but really.

> I saw in your other posts you talk about "filling up" on veg. Are you talking about fiber? Then why not focus on the carb/fiber ratio rather than the water weight?

neither

Look at the nutrition content in veggies vs. meat. Veggies are a combo of carb, protein and varying amounts of fat. But the total of these three to the total weight of the food is low in veggies (<10 to ~20%) and even lower in fruits. Meet is usually protein and fat with very little carb and over 30% of the total weight of the food.

Are you only eating the veggies for the carbs?

no

1 avocado is 2.4 grams of carbs.

This one is different with a much higher percentage non-carb to carb calories... because they are full of fat. Mono-saturated, but also lots of omega-6 which is not so good for you.


So it can be done, it's just not easy.

It might be possible, but getting proper nutrition is not so easy when you limit yourself in carb intake.

it's trivial

Most meats are not nutritionally complete. A variety of veggies are needed to be fully nutritious. That is very hard to do when restricting carbs.

it's trivial


I would love to lose 30 lbs., but I'm not going to wreck my nutrition to do it.

You shouldn't need a scale to tell that you've lost weight. Actually weight shouldn't be your goal, losing body fat should be the goal and I find I tend to exercise more when dieting and gain muscle which can even reverse the weight direction, but I end up feeling great. All my clothes fit so much better too.

Keto does improve weight but it goes a lot further for health than that..

Ok, if you say so. But I didn't see one item of proof. You just make statements without support.

Yes - if you want to look at the evidence behind it all it takes hours of reading. If you cba to read there are youtubers that explain stuff. I'm certainly not sitting here for hours for the sake of someone that cba to get informed on the basics.


> Mike was saying he uses supplements for vitamin and mineral intake. So why eat the veggies at all?

Try that test I mentioned & see. Or accept someone else's experience on it. Or something else, it's not my problem.


NT

 

On Wednesday, 1 April 2020 11:15:40 UTC+1, Rick C wrote:

On Wednesday, April 1, 2020 at 4:51:41 AM UTC-4, tabby wrote:
On Monday, 30 March 2020 23:58:20 UTC+1, Rick C wrote:
On Monday, March 30, 2020 at 6:31:22 PM UTC-4, tabby wrote:
On Friday, 27 March 2020 18:14:14 UTC, Rick C wrote:
On Friday, March 27, 2020 at 1:35:16 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:
On 3/26/2020 2:04 PM, amdx wrote:

During the last 7 weeks I lost 11 lbs, I have much more energy and I'm
walking 5 miles daily.
 I recently had blood tests. My previous blood tests were on 6/19.
All test were while on a cholesterol med.

My Total Cholesterol dropped from 195 to 109.
My Triglycerides dropped from 397 to 82.
My LDL dropped from 106 to 54.
My HDL rose from 36 to 39.

 I went on a Keto Diet 7 weeks ago, low Carbs and high Fat, medium
Protein. I shot for 20 grams of Carbs, but was generally under 30 grams.
  The blood test results were what I had read would happen, but
I was curious if it would happen for me! It did, big time.
About 50% of people find their LDL goes up, but then you need to have an
LDL particle count, because often the size gets larger with lower count
and this has less danger.
  It has been easy as I haven't had any hunger, I did do a 46 hr fast
without hunger pains. I think that is easier if your body is using
ketones instead of glucose. I did buy a Keto-Mojo meter to monitor my
Ketones and glucose.
 Just food for thought if you need to change your lipid numbers.

                                               Mikek

Ah, everyone's concern is Covid 19 right now.

Note, above I changed the word Protein to Carbs, it was an error.
So my target was 20 grams of carbs and I came in under 30 grams..

Mikek

Nothing to do with the virus, I've never been interested in the low carb diets. I have friends who have done well with them, but I'm not sure how to get full, proper nutrition while on them.

When you cut your carbs so low, are you able to acquire sufficient vitamins?

Covering all the vits & mins is trivial with supplementation.

30 grams is roughly an ounce. With just an ounce of carbs how much veggies can you take in, three ounces, four ounces? That's not even one serving a day.

Many veg are around 5% carb. The few high carb ones (potato, corn) are best avoided.

(171 gram) of boiled pinto beans offers Carbs: 45 grams

There are others, but you must be considering the proportion by weight. Most veggies are mostly water. The largest percentage of calories come from carbs. So it is hard to eat much of your calories from veggies and keep keto. Maybe you can get by with some veggies in your diet, but mostly it has to be meat and refined items like fats.

that is completely confused

No, it is completely realistic.

With all due respect you can either go and get informed on the keto diet or you can just argue.

> You can't look at a food just one nutrient at a time. All food is calorie limited. That is you can only eat so many calories in a day to match your calorie burn rate. A diet needs to be a mixture of foods that provide the right amounts of nutrients without requiring too many calories being consumed.

I'm not seeing any useful info there

> So looking at carbs per weight is meaningless if it is light in the other nutrients as well. That is a food that is water heavy and nutrient light. Eating a portion based on weight because it keeps your carbs low means it doesn't provide much other nutrients, so you might as well not eat it unless it is rich in some particular nutrient.

Tell you what, why don't you try it. Eat fat, protein & vitamin tabs. Try this with and without veg and see what the difference is. Then get back to us when you have some understanding of this stuff.

As I pointed out about the only nutrients these foods are high in are vit K and folates. Don't focus on weight of the portion. Worry about the nutrients.


What would a non-meat keto diet look like?

I don't know if you mean pescetarian, vegetarian, or not a meat only diet

Vegetarian or even vegan.

Protein: egg, cheese, perhaps tvp. Add vegetables in numerous styles, low carb fruits, cream etc etc.


> That was my original point, everyone I know who is on this diet eats lots of meat.

incorrect

I don't. I eat seafood, but I'd like to cut that out. The only real problem is I have a killer shrimp recipe for the grill.


A friend needed to cut his glycemic intake and complained that after a few days he dreamed of eating donuts. This is not a tubbo in any way. He was just sugar deprived and had a hard time figuring out how to reduce his blood sugar. Even eating 100% rye bread (which is not so appealing) would spike his blood sugar.

of course, all carbs turn to sugar

The focus is on processed white flour, etc. The problem is not having the carbs, but how quickly they turn to sugar. Complex carbs are supposed to be ok. My friend's issue was pretty severe.

Learn about keto then try that again.

Extreme diets in general are not so good for you.

Those that prescribe them & have benefitted from them might say otherwise


I haven't found anything saying a keto diet is harmful, but I haven't looked all that hard either.

You sure haven't. There's an army of people saying it's terrible, but in reality a lot of people have solved a lot of quite serious medical problems with a keto diet.

I'm not talking about people who just rant. I mean something verifiable. It's one of those things that picks up a LOT of noise and very little signal.

sure is

> I'm not interested enough to weed through all the crap.

then you're unlikely to find the good info. Keto remains controversial, there are plenty of studies that claim to demonstrate it's bad news, but from what I've seen they have flaws too major to make their conclusions useful.

I did that for the protein thing and found that other than a handful of particular veggies (like sweet potatoes) you can eat 100% of a single vegetable (white potato for example) and without going over your caloric intake you will fill your protein requirements 100% including all the essential amino acids. There is no reason to think of veggies as "inferior" protein sources unless you are body building and even then, the protein supplements they typically take are made from veggies too.

It took a LOT of work to thoroughly research that and prove to myself that it was true. I had to track down the essential amino acid levels in a number of foods (often provided in different measures) along with the calorie content and RDAs and do my own calculations.

So you're capable but not willing. OK.


NT

 

[amdx]

On 4/1/2020 3:59 AM, tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, 31 March 2020 00:28:26 UTC+1, amdx wrote:
On 3/27/2020 1:14 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Friday, March 27, 2020 at 1:35:16 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:

Nothing to do with the virus, I've never been interested in the low carb diets. I have friends who have done well with them, but I'm not sure how to get full, proper nutrition while on them.

When you cut your carbs so low, are you able to acquire sufficient vitamins? 30 grams is roughly an ounce. With just an ounce of carbs how much veggies can you take in, three ounces, four ounces? That's not even one >serving a day.

It is a challenge, and I'm not good at it yet. There are several
veggies you can eat and because they have non digestible fiber, 10 grams
counts a little less. I use a program/app called Chronometer to keep
track of all my food intake, (I weigh all my food). I do take a
multivitamin daily.
3 oz of lettuce or romaine is only 1 gram of Carbs, 1.2oz of
cauliflower is 1 gram of carb, 1 oz of broccoli is 1 gram of carb,
3- 7" celery stalks is 1 gram of carb, 3 med spears of asparagus is 1
carb, 1oz of cabbage is 1 gram of carbs, 2.7oz of spinach is 1 gram of
carb, 1 avocado is 2.4 grams of carbs.
So it can be done, it's just not easy.

yes it is What people find difficult is the transition from SAD, keto eating requires a different approach. An easy as pie way to start with is to get enough fat & protein from meat/fish/egg/cheese then add enough veg to fill you up. Tweak from there to perfect & increase variety.

Don't overlook getting enough salt & potassium, low salt thing causes symptoms for some keto beginners (keto flu etc). Keto requires more salt than SAD.


I'm at the end of 8 weeks and I am losing my interest, weighing
everything is a pain and because this last week I lost 7 lbs. I thought
I had plateaued. I weigh every Sunday and I lost 7 lbs, I didn't believe
it, I thought the scale had a problem, so I drive to another one and it
was 1/4 lb lower. I have also been doing 8hr eating window 16 hr fast.
I'm going skip the fast and get some more calories.
But the blood test results were fantastic.
Mikek

16 hour daily fast really helps with the results and is practical once you get the diet right. If you're finding it a struggle you might need to look at carb & fat intake, then whether you have enough veg.


NT

I'm sure the 8/16 helped with the weight loss. As I said I'm logging
food into chronometer so I see my macro ratios everyday, and If I need
fat, I'll have bouillon broth with 2 tbls of Olive oil, If I need
protein I'll have a whey drink.
I hope to get to the point where I recognize, how much of what to eat
without weighing it all, and just monitor my ketones to be sure.
On the salt, yes you need more, and I get mine with 1 or 2 cups of broth.
Moving the subject a little, Have you read the benefits of Metformin,
regarding reduced cancer, CVD, atherosclerosis, alzheimers,inflamation
and slowed aging?
Mikek

 

[Rick C]

On Wednesday, April 1, 2020 at 7:21:24 AM UTC-4, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, 1 April 2020 11:15:40 UTC+1, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, April 1, 2020 at 4:51:41 AM UTC-4, tabby wrote:
On Monday, 30 March 2020 23:58:20 UTC+1, Rick C wrote:
On Monday, March 30, 2020 at 6:31:22 PM UTC-4, tabby wrote:
On Friday, 27 March 2020 18:14:14 UTC, Rick C wrote:
On Friday, March 27, 2020 at 1:35:16 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:
On 3/26/2020 2:04 PM, amdx wrote:

During the last 7 weeks I lost 11 lbs, I have much more energy and I'm
walking 5 miles daily.
 I recently had blood tests. My previous blood tests were on 6/19.
All test were while on a cholesterol med.

My Total Cholesterol dropped from 195 to 109.
My Triglycerides dropped from 397 to 82.
My LDL dropped from 106 to 54.
My HDL rose from 36 to 39.

 I went on a Keto Diet 7 weeks ago, low Carbs and high Fat, medium
Protein. I shot for 20 grams of Carbs, but was generally under 30 grams.
  The blood test results were what I had read would happen, but
I was curious if it would happen for me! It did, big time.
About 50% of people find their LDL goes up, but then you need to have an
LDL particle count, because often the size gets larger with lower count
and this has less danger.
  It has been easy as I haven't had any hunger, I did do a 46 hr fast
without hunger pains. I think that is easier if your body is using
ketones instead of glucose. I did buy a Keto-Mojo meter to monitor my
Ketones and glucose.
 Just food for thought if you need to change your lipid numbers.

                                               Mikek

Ah, everyone's concern is Covid 19 right now.

Note, above I changed the word Protein to Carbs, it was an error.
So my target was 20 grams of carbs and I came in under 30 grams.

Mikek

Nothing to do with the virus, I've never been interested in the low carb diets. I have friends who have done well with them, but I'm not sure how to get full, proper nutrition while on them.

When you cut your carbs so low, are you able to acquire sufficient vitamins?

Covering all the vits & mins is trivial with supplementation.

30 grams is roughly an ounce. With just an ounce of carbs how much veggies can you take in, three ounces, four ounces? That's not even one serving a day.

Many veg are around 5% carb. The few high carb ones (potato, corn) are best avoided.

(171 gram) of boiled pinto beans offers Carbs: 45 grams

There are others, but you must be considering the proportion by weight. Most veggies are mostly water. The largest percentage of calories come from carbs. So it is hard to eat much of your calories from veggies and keep keto. Maybe you can get by with some veggies in your diet, but mostly it has to be meat and refined items like fats.

that is completely confused

No, it is completely realistic.

With all due respect you can either go and get informed on the keto diet or you can just argue.

I'm just responding to what you are posting. If you don't want to discuss it, that's fine, but you keep responding.

You can't look at a food just one nutrient at a time. All food is calorie limited. That is you can only eat so many calories in a day to match your calorie burn rate. A diet needs to be a mixture of foods that provide the right amounts of nutrients without requiring too many calories being consumed.

I'm not seeing any useful info there

I think that's because you aren't listening really. You seem to be used to thinking of nutrition in sound bites. Nutrition comes down to amounts of nutrients. Worrying about grams of carbs per cup/oz of lettuce/peas/beans is not of much value in determining proper nutrition.

So looking at carbs per weight is meaningless if it is light in the other nutrients as well. That is a food that is water heavy and nutrient light. Eating a portion based on weight because it keeps your carbs low means it doesn't provide much other nutrients, so you might as well not eat it unless it is rich in some particular nutrient.

Tell you what, why don't you try it. Eat fat, protein & vitamin tabs. Try this with and without veg and see what the difference is. Then get back to us when you have some understanding of this stuff.

So far no one has explained to me how I can go low carb without eating meat and fat in large amounts.

As I pointed out about the only nutrients these foods are high in are vit K and folates. Don't focus on weight of the portion. Worry about the nutrients.


What would a non-meat keto diet look like?

I don't know if you mean pescetarian, vegetarian, or not a meat only diet

Vegetarian or even vegan.

Protein: egg, cheese, perhaps tvp. Add vegetables in numerous styles, low carb fruits, cream etc etc.

Egg, cheese and cream are not vegan. Which low carb fruits are you referring to? I don't know of any unless you mean fruits that have so much water in them that the total weight swamps out the carb. But these fruits have far too little protein and fat to be useful.

That was my original point, everyone I know who is on this diet eats lots of meat.

incorrect

You can say that all day long and it still is not true. Please show me a realistic low carb, vegan diet.

I don't. I eat seafood, but I'd like to cut that out. The only real problem is I have a killer shrimp recipe for the grill.


A friend needed to cut his glycemic intake and complained that after a few days he dreamed of eating donuts. This is not a tubbo in any way. He was just sugar deprived and had a hard time figuring out how to reduce his blood sugar. Even eating 100% rye bread (which is not so appealing) would spike his blood sugar.

of course, all carbs turn to sugar

The focus is on processed white flour, etc. The problem is not having the carbs, but how quickly they turn to sugar. Complex carbs are supposed to be ok. My friend's issue was pretty severe.

Learn about keto then try that again.

Hmmm..... I'll pass on your advice.

Extreme diets in general are not so good for you.

Those that prescribe them & have benefitted from them might say otherwise


I haven't found anything saying a keto diet is harmful, but I haven't looked all that hard either.

You sure haven't. There's an army of people saying it's terrible, but in reality a lot of people have solved a lot of quite serious medical problems with a keto diet.

I'm not talking about people who just rant. I mean something verifiable. It's one of those things that picks up a LOT of noise and very little signal.

sure is

I'm not interested enough to weed through all the crap.

then you're unlikely to find the good info. Keto remains controversial, there are plenty of studies that claim to demonstrate it's bad news, but from what I've seen they have flaws too major to make their conclusions useful..


I did that for the protein thing and found that other than a handful of particular veggies (like sweet potatoes) you can eat 100% of a single vegetable (white potato for example) and without going over your caloric intake you will fill your protein requirements 100% including all the essential amino acids. There is no reason to think of veggies as "inferior" protein sources unless you are body building and even then, the protein supplements they typically take are made from veggies too.

It took a LOT of work to thoroughly research that and prove to myself that it was true. I had to track down the essential amino acid levels in a number of foods (often provided in different measures) along with the calorie content and RDAs and do my own calculations.

So you're capable but not willing. OK.

If there was a way for me to eat keto with my food preferences I would be happy to investigate it. But it isn't possible, so why waste so much time researching it?

--

Rick C.

--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Wednesday, April 1, 2020 at 7:26:05 AM UTC-4, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:

Try that test I mentioned & see. Or accept someone else's experience on it. Or something else, it's not my problem.

Exactly. It's not your problem. You have no supporting information, just anecdotal. But the real issue is I won't eat a ton of meat, so there is no keto diet available.

Hell, you can't even explain the damn thing in terms of nutrition. This all started because I asked about eating keto without meat. Foods were discussed with low carb to weight ratios. I pointed out that if I don't add meat this would still be a high carb diet by the time I meet my nutritional needs (calories). You jump in and wave your arms around crying "try it", "read about it" rather than offering any useful info. I have to assume you don't actually have anything useful to say about the matter.

The problem with a veggie keto diet is that a keto diet depends on getting most calories from protein putting you into ketosis. Because the vast majority of fruits and veggies may have adequate amounts of protein for nutrition, they don't have enough relative to carbs to put the body into ketosis. So no keto diet for veggies unless you want to be seriously extreme and so far, I haven't seen any info that says it's even possible.

You can play the "do your research" card all you want. Bottom line is I *have* looked at the nutritional contents of veggies and they won't support a keto diet.

--

Rick C.

-+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Wednesday, April 1, 2020 at 8:25:37 AM UTC-4, amdx wrote:

On 4/1/2020 3:59 AM, tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:
On Tuesday, 31 March 2020 00:28:26 UTC+1, amdx wrote:
On 3/27/2020 1:14 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Friday, March 27, 2020 at 1:35:16 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:

Nothing to do with the virus, I've never been interested in the low carb diets. I have friends who have done well with them, but I'm not sure how to get full, proper nutrition while on them.

When you cut your carbs so low, are you able to acquire sufficient vitamins? 30 grams is roughly an ounce. With just an ounce of carbs how much veggies can you take in, three ounces, four ounces? That's not even one >serving a day.

It is a challenge, and I'm not good at it yet. There are several
veggies you can eat and because they have non digestible fiber, 10 grams
counts a little less. I use a program/app called Chronometer to keep
track of all my food intake, (I weigh all my food). I do take a
multivitamin daily.
3 oz of lettuce or romaine is only 1 gram of Carbs, 1.2oz of
cauliflower is 1 gram of carb, 1 oz of broccoli is 1 gram of carb,
3- 7" celery stalks is 1 gram of carb, 3 med spears of asparagus is 1
carb, 1oz of cabbage is 1 gram of carbs, 2.7oz of spinach is 1 gram of
carb, 1 avocado is 2.4 grams of carbs.
So it can be done, it's just not easy.

yes it is What people find difficult is the transition from SAD, keto eating requires a different approach. An easy as pie way to start with is to get enough fat & protein from meat/fish/egg/cheese then add enough veg to fill you up. Tweak from there to perfect & increase variety.

Don't overlook getting enough salt & potassium, low salt thing causes symptoms for some keto beginners (keto flu etc). Keto requires more salt than SAD.


I'm at the end of 8 weeks and I am losing my interest, weighing
everything is a pain and because this last week I lost 7 lbs. I thought
I had plateaued. I weigh every Sunday and I lost 7 lbs, I didn't believe
it, I thought the scale had a problem, so I drive to another one and it
was 1/4 lb lower. I have also been doing 8hr eating window 16 hr fast.
I'm going skip the fast and get some more calories.
But the blood test results were fantastic.
Mikek

16 hour daily fast really helps with the results and is practical once you get the diet right. If you're finding it a struggle you might need to look at carb & fat intake, then whether you have enough veg.


NT

I'm sure the 8/16 helped with the weight loss. As I said I'm logging
food into chronometer so I see my macro ratios everyday, and If I need
fat, I'll have bouillon broth with 2 tbls of Olive oil, If I need
protein I'll have a whey drink.
I hope to get to the point where I recognize, how much of what to eat
without weighing it all, and just monitor my ketones to be sure.
On the salt, yes you need more, and I get mine with 1 or 2 cups of broth.
Moving the subject a little, Have you read the benefits of Metformin,
regarding reduced cancer, CVD, atherosclerosis, alzheimers,inflamation
and slowed aging?

As to the weighing, don't you eat similar stuff most of the time so once you've weighed things, you know the nutritional content?

No, I've not heard of metaformin.

--

Rick C.

-++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[amdx]

On 4/1/2020 2:51 PM, Rick C wrote:

On Wednesday, April 1, 2020 at 8:25:37 AM UTC-4, amdx wrote:
On 4/1/2020 3:59 AM, tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:
On Tuesday, 31 March 2020 00:28:26 UTC+1, amdx wrote:
On 3/27/2020 1:14 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Friday, March 27, 2020 at 1:35:16 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:

Nothing to do with the virus, I've never been interested in the low carb diets. I have friends who have done well with them, but I'm not sure how to get full, proper nutrition while on them.

When you cut your carbs so low, are you able to acquire sufficient vitamins? 30 grams is roughly an ounce. With just an ounce of carbs how much veggies can you take in, three ounces, four ounces? That's not even one >serving a day.

It is a challenge, and I'm not good at it yet. There are several
veggies you can eat and because they have non digestible fiber, 10 grams
counts a little less. I use a program/app called Chronometer to keep
track of all my food intake, (I weigh all my food). I do take a
multivitamin daily.
3 oz of lettuce or romaine is only 1 gram of Carbs, 1.2oz of
cauliflower is 1 gram of carb, 1 oz of broccoli is 1 gram of carb,
3- 7" celery stalks is 1 gram of carb, 3 med spears of asparagus is 1
carb, 1oz of cabbage is 1 gram of carbs, 2.7oz of spinach is 1 gram of
carb, 1 avocado is 2.4 grams of carbs.
So it can be done, it's just not easy.

yes it is What people find difficult is the transition from SAD, keto eating requires a different approach. An easy as pie way to start with is to get enough fat & protein from meat/fish/egg/cheese then add enough veg to fill you up. Tweak from there to perfect & increase variety.

Don't overlook getting enough salt & potassium, low salt thing causes symptoms for some keto beginners (keto flu etc). Keto requires more salt than SAD.


I'm at the end of 8 weeks and I am losing my interest, weighing
everything is a pain and because this last week I lost 7 lbs. I thought
I had plateaued. I weigh every Sunday and I lost 7 lbs, I didn't believe
it, I thought the scale had a problem, so I drive to another one and it
was 1/4 lb lower. I have also been doing 8hr eating window 16 hr fast.
I'm going skip the fast and get some more calories.
But the blood test results were fantastic.
Mikek

16 hour daily fast really helps with the results and is practical once you get the diet right. If you're finding it a struggle you might need to look at carb & fat intake, then whether you have enough veg.


NT

I'm sure the 8/16 helped with the weight loss. As I said I'm logging
food into chronometer so I see my macro ratios everyday, and If I need
fat, I'll have bouillon broth with 2 tbls of Olive oil, If I need
protein I'll have a whey drink.
I hope to get to the point where I recognize, how much of what to eat
without weighing it all, and just monitor my ketones to be sure.
On the salt, yes you need more, and I get mine with 1 or 2 cups of broth.
Moving the subject a little, Have you read the benefits of Metformin,
regarding reduced cancer, CVD, atherosclerosis, alzheimers,inflamation
and slowed aging?

As to the weighing, don't you eat similar stuff most of the time so once you've weighed things, you know the nutritional content?

No, I've not heard of metaformin.

Google does nothing with Metaformin, except ask, do you mean Metformin?
I got into a little discussion with my doc about Keto, IF and Mtor,
that was the opening I needed to ask him what he thought about Metformin.
He said it's a great drug! I ask, will you put me on it? He did and
also gave me a list of what he takes for increased health span and life
span.
Here's a guy I follow on Youtube and his podcast, Peter Attia, he
spends his life studying health and life extension.
Here's one video I found interesting, if you lose interest, jump to
40:00. Although, if you lose interest, might not be for you!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDFxdkck354&t=247s

Mikek

 

[amdx]

On 4/1/2020 2:32 PM, Rick C wrote:

On Wednesday, April 1, 2020 at 7:21:24 AM UTC-4, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, 1 April 2020 11:15:40 UTC+1, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, April 1, 2020 at 4:51:41 AM UTC-4, tabby wrote:
On Monday, 30 March 2020 23:58:20 UTC+1, Rick C wrote:
On Monday, March 30, 2020 at 6:31:22 PM UTC-4, tabby wrote:
On Friday, 27 March 2020 18:14:14 UTC, Rick C wrote:
On Friday, March 27, 2020 at 1:35:16 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:
On 3/26/2020 2:04 PM, amdx wrote:

During the last 7 weeks I lost 11 lbs, I have much more energy and I'm
walking 5 miles daily.
 I recently had blood tests. My previous blood tests were on 6/19.
All test were while on a cholesterol med.

My Total Cholesterol dropped from 195 to 109.
My Triglycerides dropped from 397 to 82.
My LDL dropped from 106 to 54.
My HDL rose from 36 to 39.

 I went on a Keto Diet 7 weeks ago, low Carbs and high Fat, medium
Protein. I shot for 20 grams of Carbs, but was generally under 30 grams.
  The blood test results were what I had read would happen, but
I was curious if it would happen for me! It did, big time.
About 50% of people find their LDL goes up, but then you need to have an
LDL particle count, because often the size gets larger with lower count
and this has less danger.
  It has been easy as I haven't had any hunger, I did do a 46 hr fast
without hunger pains. I think that is easier if your body is using
ketones instead of glucose. I did buy a Keto-Mojo meter to monitor my
Ketones and glucose.
 Just food for thought if you need to change your lipid numbers.

                                               Mikek

Ah, everyone's concern is Covid 19 right now.

Note, above I changed the word Protein to Carbs, it was an error.
So my target was 20 grams of carbs and I came in under 30 grams.

Mikek

Nothing to do with the virus, I've never been interested in the low carb diets. I have friends who have done well with them, but I'm not sure how to get full, proper nutrition while on them.

When you cut your carbs so low, are you able to acquire sufficient vitamins?

Covering all the vits & mins is trivial with supplementation.

30 grams is roughly an ounce. With just an ounce of carbs how much veggies can you take in, three ounces, four ounces? That's not even one serving a day.

Many veg are around 5% carb. The few high carb ones (potato, corn) are best avoided.

(171 gram) of boiled pinto beans offers Carbs: 45 grams

There are others, but you must be considering the proportion by weight. Most veggies are mostly water. The largest percentage of calories come from carbs. So it is hard to eat much of your calories from veggies and keep keto. Maybe you can get by with some veggies in your diet, but mostly it has to be meat and refined items like fats.

that is completely confused

No, it is completely realistic.

With all due respect you can either go and get informed on the keto diet or you can just argue.

I'm just responding to what you are posting. If you don't want to discuss it, that's fine, but you keep responding.


You can't look at a food just one nutrient at a time. All food is calorie limited. That is you can only eat so many calories in a day to match your calorie burn rate. A diet needs to be a mixture of foods that provide the right amounts of nutrients without requiring too many calories being consumed.

You need to separate macros from micros. Macros are Carbs, Protein and
Fat. Then you can break down the micros within those macros.
Take a look at Chronometer, I think it does a great job of giving you
the breakdown of soo many foods. It tells me what I missed in my diet.
With a little more work, I could poke in foods to try to find what foods
I need to get 100% of the micro nutrients I need, but I would probably
go over the carbs and calories I want/need. The multivitamin fills it
all in.
I'm not eating a great deal of meat to get my protein, an occasional
steak and I split 1lb of hamburg into quarters for 4 meals, some
chicken, and a chocolate whey drink.
Fat is from olive oil, eggs, avocado, butter, and sour cream.

I will give you some credit in that you must be eating a much better
diet than the Standard American Diet (SAD). If you compare SAD to the
keto diet, I suggest your better on a Keto diet.

Mikek

I'm not seeing any useful info there

I think that's because you aren't listening really. You seem to be used to thinking of nutrition in sound bites. Nutrition comes down to amounts of nutrients. Worrying about grams of carbs per cup/oz of lettuce/peas/beans is not of much value in determining proper nutrition.


So looking at carbs per weight is meaningless if it is light in the other nutrients as well. That is a food that is water heavy and nutrient light. Eating a portion based on weight because it keeps your carbs low means it doesn't provide much other nutrients, so you might as well not eat it unless it is rich in some particular nutrient.

Tell you what, why don't you try it. Eat fat, protein & vitamin tabs. Try this with and without veg and see what the difference is. Then get back to us when you have some understanding of this stuff.

So far no one has explained to me how I can go low carb without eating meat and fat in large amounts.


As I pointed out about the only nutrients these foods are high in are vit K and folates. Don't focus on weight of the portion. Worry about the nutrients.


What would a non-meat keto diet look like?

I don't know if you mean pescetarian, vegetarian, or not a meat only diet

Vegetarian or even vegan.

Protein: egg, cheese, perhaps tvp. Add vegetables in numerous styles, low carb fruits, cream etc etc.

Egg, cheese and cream are not vegan. Which low carb fruits are you referring to? I don't know of any unless you mean fruits that have so much water in them that the total weight swamps out the carb. But these fruits have far too little protein and fat to be useful.


That was my original point, everyone I know who is on this diet eats lots of meat.

incorrect

You can say that all day long and it still is not true. Please show me a realistic low carb, vegan diet.


I don't. I eat seafood, but I'd like to cut that out. The only real problem is I have a killer shrimp recipe for the grill.


A friend needed to cut his glycemic intake and complained that after a few days he dreamed of eating donuts. This is not a tubbo in any way. He was just sugar deprived and had a hard time figuring out how to reduce his blood sugar. Even eating 100% rye bread (which is not so appealing) would spike his blood sugar.

of course, all carbs turn to sugar

The focus is on processed white flour, etc. The problem is not having the carbs, but how quickly they turn to sugar. Complex carbs are supposed to be ok. My friend's issue was pretty severe.

Learn about keto then try that again.

Hmmm..... I'll pass on your advice.


Extreme diets in general are not so good for you.

Those that prescribe them & have benefitted from them might say otherwise


I haven't found anything saying a keto diet is harmful, but I haven't looked all that hard either.

You sure haven't. There's an army of people saying it's terrible, but in reality a lot of people have solved a lot of quite serious medical problems with a keto diet.

I'm not talking about people who just rant. I mean something verifiable. It's one of those things that picks up a LOT of noise and very little signal.

sure is

I'm not interested enough to weed through all the crap.

then you're unlikely to find the good info. Keto remains controversial, there are plenty of studies that claim to demonstrate it's bad news, but from what I've seen they have flaws too major to make their conclusions useful.


I did that for the protein thing and found that other than a handful of particular veggies (like sweet potatoes) you can eat 100% of a single vegetable (white potato for example) and without going over your caloric intake you will fill your protein requirements 100% including all the essential amino acids. There is no reason to think of veggies as "inferior" protein sources unless you are body building and even then, the protein supplements they typically take are made from veggies too.

It took a LOT of work to thoroughly research that and prove to myself that it was true. I had to track down the essential amino acid levels in a number of foods (often provided in different measures) along with the calorie content and RDAs and do my own calculations.

So you're capable but not willing. OK.

If there was a way for me to eat keto with my food preferences I would be happy to investigate it. But it isn't possible, so why waste so much time researching it?

 

[Rick C]

On Wednesday, April 1, 2020 at 6:34:32 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:

On 4/1/2020 2:32 PM, Rick C wrote:

You can't look at a food just one nutrient at a time. All food is calorie limited. That is you can only eat so many calories in a day to match your calorie burn rate. A diet needs to be a mixture of foods that provide the right amounts of nutrients without requiring too many calories being consumed.

You need to separate macros from micros. Macros are Carbs, Protein and
Fat. Then you can break down the micros within those macros.
Take a look at Chronometer, I think it does a great job of giving you
the breakdown of soo many foods. It tells me what I missed in my diet.
With a little more work, I could poke in foods to try to find what foods
I need to get 100% of the micro nutrients I need, but I would probably
go over the carbs and calories I want/need. The multivitamin fills it
all in.
I'm not eating a great deal of meat to get my protein, an occasional
steak and I split 1lb of hamburg into quarters for 4 meals, some
chicken, and a chocolate whey drink.
Fat is from olive oil, eggs, avocado, butter, and sour cream.

I will give you some credit in that you must be eating a much better
diet than the Standard American Diet (SAD). If you compare SAD to the
keto diet, I suggest your better on a Keto diet.

Why do you post in the middle of the post you are replying to without trimming? I almost gave up when I couldn't find your post in the tangle.

You are going at this in a different way. You are eating what you need to eat to be keto. My priority is I don't want to eat meat. I've said that many times. The response was that there are veggies that are "low" in carbs.. But it turns out they are low in carbs because they are low in everything (by weight) because the weight is inflated by a high percentage of water.

I'm not just talking about nutrients in general. I'm mainly talking about the fact that if i don't eat meat and get my calories from the huge excess of protein in meat, I can't be keto by eating the veggies you listed. They have more calories in carbs than they do fat and protein combined.

Eating keto means you take in far more protein than you require for nutrition and keep your carb intake low enough that your body is forced to metabolize the protein for energy. This is the literal definition of the keto diet. You can't do that eating the foods you listed other than possibly avocado which is very high in fat (but still doesn't have much protein).

I'm not saying anything about the keto diet one way or the other. I'm just saying I can't do it without eating a lot of meat and I don't want to do that right now.

On a humorous note, a friend would come by and always bring something. So he brings a pound of bacon one day. I point out to him that I mostly eat veggie and he says to put it in the freezer. lol So I did thinking someone might eat it eventually. A few years later I was cleaning out the freezer and found it. So I said the pig had been dead long enough that I was eating it. I fried up the whole pound in two batches and had a skillet FULL of grease. Ever hear of fried bread? I'd only heard of it on TV. So I cut off a slice of bread and fried it up in the grease and it was great! The fat doesn't soak in because of the moisture boiling out. It tastes like toast with bacon grease rather than butter, very good. lol

A few weeks after bringing the bacon he brought turkey bacon thinking that would be better, lol. Still in the freezer. Maybe some day I'll have some bread I don't know what to do with and have turkey fried bread.

BTW, I don't think my diet is any better than what you call the SAD. I just don't eat the meat. I eat way too much peanut butter and far too little fruits. Even though fruits don't have much nutrition, they have significant amounts of some nutrients that are otherwise hard to come by, like vit C. I think I read that broccoli has significant quantities though. But you need to have vit C every day, it's water soluble, so orange/grapefruit juice is a good daily drink. Watch out for grapefruit juice though. It can much with the absorption of some medicines. I think it actually enhances the absorption so it can result in overdoses. Seems it interferes with an enzyme that limits the absorption or breaks down some medicines in the gut... something like that. So go with the OJ every day.

How do you get your vit C, a pill? Nothing wrong with that.

--

Rick C.

+-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Dave Platt]

In article <6c900533-3e9a-4292-9a5f-eb256d758c29@googlegroups.com>,
Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

A few weeks after bringing the bacon he brought turkey bacon thinking that would be better, lol.
Still in the freezer. Maybe some day I'll have some bread I don't know what to do with and have
turkey fried bread.

I doubt that will work... or at least, work well. The turkey bacon
we've gotten at the Big Box Store is quite lean... by the time it's
browned there's essentially no fat or other liquid in the pan.

 

[Michael Terrell]

On Wednesday, April 1, 2020 at 4:52:42 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:

Google does nothing with Metaformin, except ask, do you mean Metformin?
I got into a little discussion with my doc about Keto, IF and Mtor,
that was the opening I needed to ask him what he thought about Metformin.
He said it's a great drug! I ask, will you put me on it? He did and
also gave me a list of what he takes for increased health span and life
span.
Here's a guy I follow on Youtube and his podcast, Peter Attia, he
spends his life studying health and life extension.
Here's one video I found interesting, if you lose interest, jump to
40:00. Although, if you lose interest, might not be for you!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDFxdkck354&t=247s

Metformin is a really nasty drug. It is the first drug prescribed for Diabetics. Its main side affect is weaponized Diarrhea. You don't even get five seconds of warning. It plays hell with your Glucose levels, as well. I am now on Gliptzide and insulin, because it is so bad.

 

[amdx]

On 4/1/2020 8:06 PM, Michael Terrell wrote:

On Wednesday, April 1, 2020 at 4:52:42 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:

Google does nothing with Metaformin, except ask, do you mean Metformin?
I got into a little discussion with my doc about Keto, IF and Mtor,
that was the opening I needed to ask him what he thought about Metformin.
He said it's a great drug! I ask, will you put me on it? He did and
also gave me a list of what he takes for increased health span and life
span.
Here's a guy I follow on Youtube and his podcast, Peter Attia, he
spends his life studying health and life extension.
Here's one video I found interesting, if you lose interest, jump to
40:00. Although, if you lose interest, might not be for you!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDFxdkck354&t=247s


Metformin is a really nasty drug. It is the first drug prescribed for Diabetics. Its main side affect is weaponized Diarrhea. You don't even get five seconds of warning. It plays hell with your Glucose levels, as well. I am now on Gliptzide and insulin, because it is so bad.

I'll give you that some people have intestinal issues with it. But, it
i generally a safe drug that has had many years of wide use without
major side effects. I did read some people can have an upset stomach.
MY doc said he takes 1000mg in the morning, I said, why don't you
break it in to two does, because of the stomach upset side effect? He
said, I don't have any problem taking 1000 mg in the morning. We are all
different.
I'll be monitoring my glucose and Ketones, daily for a while.

Mikek

 

[amdx]

On 4/1/2020 6:10 PM, Rick C wrote:

On Wednesday, April 1, 2020 at 6:34:32 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:
On 4/1/2020 2:32 PM, Rick C wrote:

You can't look at a food just one nutrient at a time. All food is calorie limited. That is you can only eat so many calories in a day to match your calorie burn rate. A diet needs to be a mixture of foods that provide the right amounts of nutrients without requiring too many calories being consumed.

You need to separate macros from micros. Macros are Carbs, Protein and
Fat. Then you can break down the micros within those macros.
Take a look at Chronometer, I think it does a great job of giving you
the breakdown of soo many foods. It tells me what I missed in my diet.
With a little more work, I could poke in foods to try to find what foods
I need to get 100% of the micro nutrients I need, but I would probably
go over the carbs and calories I want/need. The multivitamin fills it
all in.
I'm not eating a great deal of meat to get my protein, an occasional
steak and I split 1lb of hamburg into quarters for 4 meals, some
chicken, and a chocolate whey drink.
Fat is from olive oil, eggs, avocado, butter, and sour cream.

I will give you some credit in that you must be eating a much better
diet than the Standard American Diet (SAD). If you compare SAD to the
keto diet, I suggest your better on a Keto diet.


Why do you post in the middle of the post you are replying to without trimming? I almost gave up when I couldn't find your post in the tangle.

You are going at this in a different way. You are eating what you need to eat to be keto. My priority is I don't want to eat meat. I've said that many times. The response was that there are veggies that are "low" in carbs. But it turns out they are low in carbs because they are low in everything (by weight) because the weight is inflated by a high percentage of water.

I'm not just talking about nutrients in general. I'm mainly talking about the fact that if i don't eat meat and get my calories from the huge excess of protein in meat, I can't be keto by eating the veggies you listed. They have more calories in carbs than they do fat and protein combined.

Eating keto means you take in far more protein than you require for nutrition and keep your carb intake low enough that your body is forced to metabolize the protein for energy. This is the literal definition of the keto diet. You can't do that eating the foods you listed other than possibly avocado which is very high in fat (but still doesn't have much protein).

I'm not saying anything about the keto diet one way or the other. I'm just saying I can't do it without eating a lot of meat and I don't want to do that right now.

On a humorous note, a friend would come by and always bring something. So he brings a pound of bacon one day. I point out to him that I mostly eat veggie and he says to put it in the freezer. lol So I did thinking someone might eat it eventually. A few years later I was cleaning out the freezer and found it. So I said the pig had been dead long enough that I was eating it. I fried up the whole pound in two batches and had a skillet FULL of grease. Ever hear of fried bread? I'd only heard of it on TV. So I cut off a slice of bread and fried it up in the grease and it was great! The fat doesn't soak in because of the moisture boiling out. It tastes like toast with bacon grease rather than butter, very good. lol

A few weeks after bringing the bacon he brought turkey bacon thinking that would be better, lol. Still in the freezer. Maybe some day I'll have some bread I don't know what to do with and have turkey fried bread.

BTW, I don't think my diet is any better than what you call the SAD. I just don't eat the meat. I eat way too much peanut butter and far too little fruits. Even though fruits don't have much nutrition, they have significant amounts of some nutrients that are otherwise hard to come by, like vit C. I think I read that broccoli has significant quantities though. But you need to have vit C every day, it's water soluble, so orange/grapefruit juice is a good daily drink. Watch out for grapefruit juice though. It can much with the absorption of some medicines. I think it actually enhances the absorption so it can result in overdoses. Seems it interferes with an enzyme that limits the absorption or breaks down some medicines in the gut... something like that. So go with the OJ every day.

How do you get your vit C, a pill? Nothing wrong with that.

You said, "Eating keto means you take in far more protein than you
require for nutrition and keep your carb intake low enough that your
body is forced to metabolize the protein for energy. This is the
literal definition of the keto diet."

I disagree, Keto high fat, medium protein and low carbs. The Macros
have a range, depending on if you want fat loss or if you are trying to
build muscle. 65% to 80% of your calories from Fat, 15% to 30% Protein
and 5% carbs. Keep in mind fat is 9 calories per gram and the other 4
calories per gram.

Yes, I am taking a Vit C supplement.

If you have Glucose concerns, orange juice will spike your Glucose,
the friend you mentioned, should not drink it. Many are coming to
recognize the Diabetes association diet recommendations are really poor
advice for diabetics. I read they have recently made some changes to
their recommendations, but have not yet said, some diabetics can get off
insulin if the are on a strict Keto diet.

As I understand it, grapefruit reduces the livers ability to
metabolize drugs, thus they stick around longer and the levels can
build up.

Mikek

 

[amdx]

If anyone cares to dig deep into Ketosis, this paper and Part 2 is a
good intro. Google will be useful to clarify acronyms and terms.


> https://peterattiamd.com/ketosis-advantaged-or-misunderstood-state-part-i/

Mikek

 

[Rick C]

On Thursday, April 2, 2020 at 9:49:08 AM UTC-4, amdx wrote:

On 4/1/2020 6:10 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, April 1, 2020 at 6:34:32 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:
On 4/1/2020 2:32 PM, Rick C wrote:

You can't look at a food just one nutrient at a time. All food is calorie limited. That is you can only eat so many calories in a day to match your calorie burn rate. A diet needs to be a mixture of foods that provide the right amounts of nutrients without requiring too many calories being consumed.

You need to separate macros from micros. Macros are Carbs, Protein and
Fat. Then you can break down the micros within those macros.
Take a look at Chronometer, I think it does a great job of giving you
the breakdown of soo many foods. It tells me what I missed in my diet.
With a little more work, I could poke in foods to try to find what foods
I need to get 100% of the micro nutrients I need, but I would probably
go over the carbs and calories I want/need. The multivitamin fills it
all in.
I'm not eating a great deal of meat to get my protein, an occasional
steak and I split 1lb of hamburg into quarters for 4 meals, some
chicken, and a chocolate whey drink.
Fat is from olive oil, eggs, avocado, butter, and sour cream.

I will give you some credit in that you must be eating a much better
diet than the Standard American Diet (SAD). If you compare SAD to the
keto diet, I suggest your better on a Keto diet.


Why do you post in the middle of the post you are replying to without trimming? I almost gave up when I couldn't find your post in the tangle.

You are going at this in a different way. You are eating what you need to eat to be keto. My priority is I don't want to eat meat. I've said that many times. The response was that there are veggies that are "low" in carbs. But it turns out they are low in carbs because they are low in everything (by weight) because the weight is inflated by a high percentage of water.

I'm not just talking about nutrients in general. I'm mainly talking about the fact that if i don't eat meat and get my calories from the huge excess of protein in meat, I can't be keto by eating the veggies you listed. They have more calories in carbs than they do fat and protein combined.

Eating keto means you take in far more protein than you require for nutrition and keep your carb intake low enough that your body is forced to metabolize the protein for energy. This is the literal definition of the keto diet. You can't do that eating the foods you listed other than possibly avocado which is very high in fat (but still doesn't have much protein).

I'm not saying anything about the keto diet one way or the other. I'm just saying I can't do it without eating a lot of meat and I don't want to do that right now.

On a humorous note, a friend would come by and always bring something. So he brings a pound of bacon one day. I point out to him that I mostly eat veggie and he says to put it in the freezer. lol So I did thinking someone might eat it eventually. A few years later I was cleaning out the freezer and found it. So I said the pig had been dead long enough that I was eating it. I fried up the whole pound in two batches and had a skillet FULL of grease. Ever hear of fried bread? I'd only heard of it on TV. So I cut off a slice of bread and fried it up in the grease and it was great! The fat doesn't soak in because of the moisture boiling out. It tastes like toast with bacon grease rather than butter, very good. lol

A few weeks after bringing the bacon he brought turkey bacon thinking that would be better, lol. Still in the freezer. Maybe some day I'll have some bread I don't know what to do with and have turkey fried bread.

BTW, I don't think my diet is any better than what you call the SAD. I just don't eat the meat. I eat way too much peanut butter and far too little fruits. Even though fruits don't have much nutrition, they have significant amounts of some nutrients that are otherwise hard to come by, like vit C. I think I read that broccoli has significant quantities though. But you need to have vit C every day, it's water soluble, so orange/grapefruit juice is a good daily drink. Watch out for grapefruit juice though. It can much with the absorption of some medicines. I think it actually enhances the absorption so it can result in overdoses. Seems it interferes with an enzyme that limits the absorption or breaks down some medicines in the gut.... something like that. So go with the OJ every day.

How do you get your vit C, a pill? Nothing wrong with that.


You said, "Eating keto means you take in far more protein than you
require for nutrition and keep your carb intake low enough that your
body is forced to metabolize the protein for energy. This is the
literal definition of the keto diet."

I disagree, Keto high fat, medium protein and low carbs. The Macros
have a range, depending on if you want fat loss or if you are trying to
build muscle. 65% to 80% of your calories from Fat, 15% to 30% Protein
and 5% carbs. Keep in mind fat is 9 calories per gram and the other 4
calories per gram.

Nothing you wrote contradicts what I wrote, in fact you support my statements.

Let's say I'm a typical male, 150 lbs/68 kg. My calorie needs are around 2000. 15% of that is 300 which equals 75 g. The dietary requirement for protein is 0.8 g/kg or 54 g. So your low end protein intake is 50% above the structural protein requirement being burned for energy, not used to build the body. If the amount of protein burned for energy is high enough the body secretes enough ketones to be considered in "ketosis". Your upper level of protein intake is 3 times the RDA, so ketosis in spades.

Yes, I am taking a Vit C supplement.

If you have Glucose concerns, orange juice will spike your Glucose,
the friend you mentioned, should not drink it.

My friend has things very well under control. Not sure about orange juice, but he says eating fruits don't don't spike his blood sugar. He thinks it's because there's not actually a lot of sugar in fruits, as I've pointed out, they are mostly water.

Many are coming to
recognize the Diabetes association diet recommendations are really poor
advice for diabetics. I read they have recently made some changes to
their recommendations, but have not yet said, some diabetics can get off
insulin if the are on a strict Keto diet.

Authorities in many areas are off the mark.

As I understand it, grapefruit reduces the livers ability to
metabolize drugs, thus they stick around longer and the levels can
build up.

What I read had to do with the absorption in the intestines. An enzyme in your gut degrades various drugs or prevents absorption (can't remember which) and something in the grapefruit juice interferes with that. This was from when I was taking a drug and did some research into it. There was a food supplement that was prescription only which had an augmentation effect on the drug I was taking. In reading about that I found out about the grapefruit thing which applies to multiple drugs.

--

Rick C.

+-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

On Wednesday, 1 April 2020 20:49:16 UTC+1, Ricky C wrote:

On Wednesday, April 1, 2020 at 7:26:05 AM UTC-4, tabby wrote:

Try that test I mentioned & see. Or accept someone else's experience on it. Or something else, it's not my problem.

Exactly. It's not your problem. You have no supporting information, just anecdotal.

lol.

But the real issue is I won't eat a ton of meat, so there is no keto diet available.

Hell, you can't even explain the damn thing in terms of nutrition. This all started because I asked about eating keto without meat. Foods were discussed with low carb to weight ratios. I pointed out that if I don't add meat this would still be a high carb diet by the time I meet my nutritional needs (calories). You jump in and wave your arms around crying "try it", "read about it" rather than offering any useful info. I have to assume you don't actually have anything useful to say about the matter.

The problem with a veggie keto diet is that a keto diet depends on getting most calories from protein putting you into ketosis. Because the vast majority of fruits and veggies may have adequate amounts of protein for nutrition, they don't have enough relative to carbs to put the body into ketosis.. So no keto diet for veggies unless you want to be seriously extreme and so far, I haven't seen any info that says it's even possible.

You can play the "do your research" card all you want. Bottom line is I *have* looked at the nutritional contents of veggies and they won't support a keto diet.

Christ you're stupid. If you wanted to discover something about it you'd at least refrain from being a stupid jerk then people would continue to explain, but that is beyond you. Bye bye.

 

On Wednesday, 1 April 2020 20:32:14 UTC+1, Ricky C wrote:

On Wednesday, April 1, 2020 at 7:21:24 AM UTC-4, tabby wrote:
On Wednesday, 1 April 2020 11:15:40 UTC+1, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, April 1, 2020 at 4:51:41 AM UTC-4, tabby wrote:

There are others, but you must be considering the proportion by weight. Most veggies are mostly water. The largest percentage of calories come from carbs. So it is hard to eat much of your calories from veggies and keep keto. Maybe you can get by with some veggies in your diet, but mostly it has to be meat and refined items like fats.

that is completely confused

No, it is completely realistic.

With all due respect you can either go and get informed on the keto diet or you can just argue.

I'm just responding to what you are posting. If you don't want to discuss it, that's fine, but you keep responding.


You can't look at a food just one nutrient at a time. All food is calorie limited. That is you can only eat so many calories in a day to match your calorie burn rate. A diet needs to be a mixture of foods that provide the right amounts of nutrients without requiring too many calories being consumed.

I'm not seeing any useful info there

I think that's because you aren't listening really. You seem to be used to thinking of nutrition in sound bites. Nutrition comes down to amounts of nutrients. Worrying about grams of carbs per cup/oz of lettuce/peas/beans is not of much value in determining proper nutrition.

I guessed you'd be stupid.

So looking at carbs per weight is meaningless if it is light in the other nutrients as well. That is a food that is water heavy and nutrient light. Eating a portion based on weight because it keeps your carbs low means it doesn't provide much other nutrients, so you might as well not eat it unless it is rich in some particular nutrient.

Tell you what, why don't you try it. Eat fat, protein & vitamin tabs. Try this with and without veg and see what the difference is. Then get back to us when you have some understanding of this stuff.

So far no one has explained to me how I can go low carb without eating meat and fat in large amounts.

Yet again you show your failure to understand even the most basic aspects of keto diets yet want to argue your opinion. Have fun without me.


NT

 

[amdx]

On 4/2/2020 2:02 PM, Rick C wrote:

On Thursday, April 2, 2020 at 9:49:08 AM UTC-4, amdx wrote:
On 4/1/2020 6:10 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, April 1, 2020 at 6:34:32 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:
On 4/1/2020 2:32 PM, Rick C wrote:

You can't look at a food just one nutrient at a time. All food is calorie limited. That is you can only eat so many calories in a day to match your calorie burn rate. A diet needs to be a mixture of foods that provide the right amounts of nutrients without requiring too many calories being consumed.

You need to separate macros from micros. Macros are Carbs, Protein and
Fat. Then you can break down the micros within those macros.
Take a look at Chronometer, I think it does a great job of giving you
the breakdown of soo many foods. It tells me what I missed in my diet.
With a little more work, I could poke in foods to try to find what foods
I need to get 100% of the micro nutrients I need, but I would probably
go over the carbs and calories I want/need. The multivitamin fills it
all in.
I'm not eating a great deal of meat to get my protein, an occasional
steak and I split 1lb of hamburg into quarters for 4 meals, some
chicken, and a chocolate whey drink.
Fat is from olive oil, eggs, avocado, butter, and sour cream.

I will give you some credit in that you must be eating a much better
diet than the Standard American Diet (SAD). If you compare SAD to the
keto diet, I suggest your better on a Keto diet.


Why do you post in the middle of the post you are replying to without trimming? I almost gave up when I couldn't find your post in the tangle.

You are going at this in a different way. You are eating what you need to eat to be keto. My priority is I don't want to eat meat. I've said that many times. The response was that there are veggies that are "low" in carbs. But it turns out they are low in carbs because they are low in everything (by weight) because the weight is inflated by a high percentage of water.

I'm not just talking about nutrients in general. I'm mainly talking about the fact that if i don't eat meat and get my calories from the huge excess of protein in meat, I can't be keto by eating the veggies you listed. They have more calories in carbs than they do fat and protein combined.

Eating keto means you take in far more protein than you require for nutrition and keep your carb intake low enough that your body is forced to metabolize the protein for energy. This is the literal definition of the keto diet. You can't do that eating the foods you listed other than possibly avocado which is very high in fat (but still doesn't have much protein).

I'm not saying anything about the keto diet one way or the other. I'm just saying I can't do it without eating a lot of meat and I don't want to do that right now.

On a humorous note, a friend would come by and always bring something. So he brings a pound of bacon one day. I point out to him that I mostly eat veggie and he says to put it in the freezer. lol So I did thinking someone might eat it eventually. A few years later I was cleaning out the freezer and found it. So I said the pig had been dead long enough that I was eating it. I fried up the whole pound in two batches and had a skillet FULL of grease. Ever hear of fried bread? I'd only heard of it on TV. So I cut off a slice of bread and fried it up in the grease and it was great! The fat doesn't soak in because of the moisture boiling out. It tastes like toast with bacon grease rather than butter, very good. lol

A few weeks after bringing the bacon he brought turkey bacon thinking that would be better, lol. Still in the freezer. Maybe some day I'll have some bread I don't know what to do with and have turkey fried bread.

BTW, I don't think my diet is any better than what you call the SAD. I just don't eat the meat. I eat way too much peanut butter and far too little fruits. Even though fruits don't have much nutrition, they have significant amounts of some nutrients that are otherwise hard to come by, like vit C. I think I read that broccoli has significant quantities though. But you need to have vit C every day, it's water soluble, so orange/grapefruit juice is a good daily drink. Watch out for grapefruit juice though. It can much with the absorption of some medicines. I think it actually enhances the absorption so it can result in overdoses. Seems it interferes with an enzyme that limits the absorption or breaks down some medicines in the gut... something like that. So go with the OJ every day.

How do you get your vit C, a pill? Nothing wrong with that.


You said, "Eating keto means you take in far more protein than you
require for nutrition and keep your carb intake low enough that your
body is forced to metabolize the protein for energy. This is the
literal definition of the keto diet."

I disagree, Keto high fat, medium protein and low carbs. The Macros
have a range, depending on if you want fat loss or if you are trying to
build muscle. 65% to 80% of your calories from Fat, 15% to 30% Protein
and 5% carbs. Keep in mind fat is 9 calories per gram and the other 4
calories per gram.

Nothing you wrote contradicts what I wrote, in fact you support my statements.

Let's say I'm a typical male, 150 lbs/68 kg. My calorie needs are around 2000. 15% of that is 300 which equals 75 g. The dietary requirement for protein is 0.8 g/kg or 54 g. So your low end protein intake is 50% above the structural protein requirement being burned for energy, not used to build the body. If the amount of protein burned for energy is high enough the body secretes enough ketones to be considered in "ketosis". Your upper level of protein intake is 3 times the RDA, so ketosis in spades.


Yes, I am taking a Vit C supplement.

If you have Glucose concerns, orange juice will spike your Glucose,
the friend you mentioned, should not drink it.

My friend has things very well under control. Not sure about orange juice, but he says eating fruits don't don't spike his blood sugar. He thinks it's because there's not actually a lot of sugar in fruits, as I've pointed out, they are mostly water.


Many are coming to
recognize the Diabetes association diet recommendations are really poor
advice for diabetics. I read they have recently made some changes to
their recommendations, but have not yet said, some diabetics can get off
insulin if the are on a strict Keto diet.

Authorities in many areas are off the mark.


As I understand it, grapefruit reduces the livers ability to
metabolize drugs, thus they stick around longer and the levels can
build up.

What I read had to do with the absorption in the intestines. An enzyme in your gut degrades various drugs or prevents absorption (can't remember which) and something in the grapefruit juice interferes with that. This was from when I was taking a drug and did some research into it. There was a food supplement that was prescription only which had an augmentation effect on the drug I was taking. In reading about that I found out about the grapefruit thing which applies to multiple drugs.

As with all of the biological stuff, it's complicated!
Both the gut and the liver have the CYP3A4 enzyme. Grapefruit
interferes with CYP3A4 action. And, depending on what drug the CYP3A4 is
reacting with, it can up or down regulate.

"Although CYP3A4 is predominantly found in the liver, it is also present
in other organs and tissues of the body, where it may play an important
role in metabolism. CYP3A4 in the intestine plays an important role in
the metabolism of certain drugs."

It's all fun!
Mikek

 

tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote in
news:b7617ebe-e338-489b-9a02-7ed0d878c9a9@googlegroups.com:

On Wednesday, 1 April 2020 20:49:16 UTC+1, Ricky C wrote:
On Wednesday, April 1, 2020 at 7:26:05 AM UTC-4, tabby wrote:

Try that test I mentioned & see. Or accept someone else's
experience on
it. Or something else, it's not my problem.

Exactly. It's not your problem. You have no supporting
information, jus
t anecdotal.

lol.

But the real issue is I won't eat a ton of meat, so there is no
keto diet
available.

Hell, you can't even explain the damn thing in terms of
nutrition. This
all started because I asked about eating keto without meat. Foods
were discussed with low carb to weight ratios. I pointed out that
if I don't add meat this would still be a high carb diet by the
time I meet my nutritional needs (calories). You jump in and wave
your arms around crying "try it", "read about it" rather than
offering any useful info. I have to assume you don't actually
have anything useful to say about the matter.

The problem with a veggie keto diet is that a keto diet depends
on gettin
g most calories from protein putting you into ketosis. Because
the vast majority of fruits and veggies may have adequate amounts
of protein for nutrition, they don't have enough relative to carbs
to put the body into ketosis. So no keto diet for veggies unless
you want to be seriously extreme and so far, I haven't seen any
info that says it's even possible.

You can play the "do your research" card all you want. Bottom
line is I
*have* looked at the nutritional contents of veggies and they
won't support a keto diet.

Christ you're stupid. If you wanted to discover something about it
you'd at least refrain from being a stupid jerk then people would
continue to explain, but that is beyond you. Bye bye.

Well, that doesn't sound like purring at all.

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Saturday, April 4, 2020 at 1:09:21 AM UTC+11, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:

tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote in
news:b7617ebe-e338-489b-9a02-7ed0d878c9a9@googlegroups.com:

On Wednesday, 1 April 2020 20:49:16 UTC+1, Ricky C wrote:
On Wednesday, April 1, 2020 at 7:26:05 AM UTC-4, tabby wrote:

<snip>

Christ you're stupid. If you wanted to discover something about it
you'd at least refrain from being a stupid jerk then people would
continue to explain, but that is beyond you. Bye bye.

Well, that doesn't sound like purring at all.

NT is a waste of space. He wants a platform where he can pontificate and be taken seriously, but he doesn't know enough to have anything useful to say,and gets resentful when this pointed out.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney