OT: My daughters binaural pure tone audiometry test, opinion

[Tom Gardner]

On 13/08/19 20:39, Jan Panteltje wrote:

On a sunny day (Tue, 13 Aug 2019 11:35:19 -0700) it happened John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
3d06le583il6snkr2ugfnttn2k735buv9h@4ax.com>:

My wife is a speech pathologist; I'll ask her.

I have the same "problem", the inability to separate sounds, the lack
of "cocktail party" ability. Mine's not a hearing problem, it's a
signal processing thing that can't be fixed. It's not a big deal.

She might actually have a problem in one ear, which would certainly
make it harder to separate sound sources.


From my experience, and I think a lot is misunderstood about speech and how we process it, it works like this:

Everybody has brain wave frequencies (some for sleep some for awake etc)
Every sound you make, EVERY sound you make,
either by saying something, tapping on the table, moving around, or playing an instrument
is in some way phase locked to your brain wave pattern,

To decode we do the reverse: the brain does PLL from the higher frequency components
decoded in the ear down, to re-construct the source (speaking person's) brain wave pattern (synchronization).
If the 'sender' is chaotic then reconstruction is very hard and may fail.
Decoding = Understanding becomes hard.


If the receiver PLL has a problem and cannot lock reconstruction will fail.

I can still hear things I should not be able to hear,
for example I can hear if my 44 kHz ultrasonic anti fouling system is on.
Sort of a whistle,..
This sort of whistle that most people ignore tells me
even how many people are around moving (I hear a tone for every one).
Great intruder detection in the wild,.
It is based on the alien problem, per person you only need 3 ticks,
The ratio holds the base frequency of the other ones brain waves,

This is translated in the brain to a frequency at the extreme high end (where I do perceive it)
And for example the 44 kHz I can still detect with wax ear plugs, so is mostly detected
via skull I think, same for very low frequency vibrations.

No f*ck what everybody else think they know
this works for me.
Science will figure it out one of those days, maybe already has, maybe it is kept secret,
you are more transparent than you can ever imagine.

So a noisy teacher (brain pattern) makes listing and learning very very difficult.

eh

Frequency characteristic is of very little importance for understanding I think,
as long as some basic audio band (remember 300 to 3000 Hz phone works great) is present.

For direction you need 2 ears, but direction is not essential for understanding.
We just had lightning storms coming over and I changed from wired headphones to a bluetooth wireless one ear set
and watched a long documentary about what was it .. OK volcanos and deserts...
One ear no problem understanding it in German (not my native language) speaker very clear,
plenty of crap noise, thunder, silly music track, barking dogs, what have you.
To tune in to some person in a crowd is simply PLL to their brain waves.
not so much a direction issue.

OK my Usenet blob for today.

I have no comment on what you can and cannot perceive.

However, there are many unjustified assumptions and
incorrect statements in that.

One very small example is that one ear is -120dB, but I
can still perceive direction, albeit to a limited extent.
All I do is rotate my head and listen to the intensity
changes.

 

>I have the same "problem", the inability to separate sounds, the >lack of "cocktail party" ability. Mine's not a hearing problem, >it's a signal processing thing that can't be fixed.

I had that before my hearing loss. I used to be able to hear, up until almost 40 I could hear 15,734Hz. Certain models of TVs actually bothered me.

Get me in a room wit alot of people and you might as well use a megaphone these days.

 

[Phil Allison]

John Larkin wrote:

I have the same "problem", the inability to separate sounds, the lack
of "cocktail party" ability. Mine's not a hearing problem, it's a
signal processing thing that can't be fixed.

** One of my pet peeves is that many people have no idea how one sound masks the audibility of another. In situations that are very noisy or when a loud sound arises (ie jet aircraft flies overhead) they do not alter their speech one iota to take account.

If you move your head closer to hear them more clearly, they back off and drop their voice. If you say "I can't hear you" - they just look puzzled and still make no effort. The same folk make no distinction between an indoor conversation and an outdoor one - where you need to always face the person you are speaking with or they can barely hear you.

Same thing when on the telephone, saying "I can't hear you" or "I am missing words" has little effect on them.

A woman I spoke with recently via her mobile ( ie cell phone )must have had her finger over the microphone hole, her voice was very muffled and weak - not something I associate with bad reception. Despite repeated requests from me for her to take he finger away from the mic nothing changed.

Most sensible folk do the exact opposite, in noisy environments they speak ( but do not shout) directly into you ear, or wait for the noise to stop or agree to both move to a better location.

When talking with someone, I like to be sure that we can both hear each other well - straining to hear what is being said or having to shout ruins any conversation. Tone of voice implications and other nuances of normal speech go missing and meanings can become misconstrued.



..... Phil

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Tue, 13 Aug 2019 21:22:26 +0100) it happened Tom Gardner
<spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in <7_E4F.3162$665.931@fx28.am4>:

On 13/08/19 20:39, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Tue, 13 Aug 2019 11:35:19 -0700) it happened John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
3d06le583il6snkr2ugfnttn2k735buv9h@4ax.com>:

My wife is a speech pathologist; I'll ask her.

I have the same "problem", the inability to separate sounds, the lack
of "cocktail party" ability. Mine's not a hearing problem, it's a
signal processing thing that can't be fixed. It's not a big deal.

She might actually have a problem in one ear, which would certainly
make it harder to separate sound sources.


From my experience, and I think a lot is misunderstood about speech and how we process it, it works like this:

Everybody has brain wave frequencies (some for sleep some for awake etc)
Every sound you make, EVERY sound you make,
either by saying something, tapping on the table, moving around, or playing an instrument
is in some way phase locked to your brain wave pattern,

To decode we do the reverse: the brain does PLL from the higher frequency components
decoded in the ear down, to re-construct the source (speaking person's) brain wave pattern (synchronization).
If the 'sender' is chaotic then reconstruction is very hard and may fail.
Decoding = Understanding becomes hard.


If the receiver PLL has a problem and cannot lock reconstruction will fail.

I can still hear things I should not be able to hear,
for example I can hear if my 44 kHz ultrasonic anti fouling system is on.
Sort of a whistle,..
This sort of whistle that most people ignore tells me
even how many people are around moving (I hear a tone for every one).
Great intruder detection in the wild,.
It is based on the alien problem, per person you only need 3 ticks,
The ratio holds the base frequency of the other ones brain waves,

This is translated in the brain to a frequency at the extreme high end (where I do perceive it)
And for example the 44 kHz I can still detect with wax ear plugs, so is mostly detected
via skull I think, same for very low frequency vibrations.

No f*ck what everybody else think they know
this works for me.
Science will figure it out one of those days, maybe already has, maybe it is kept secret,
you are more transparent than you can ever imagine.

So a noisy teacher (brain pattern) makes listing and learning very very difficult.

eh

Frequency characteristic is of very little importance for understanding I think,
as long as some basic audio band (remember 300 to 3000 Hz phone works great) is present.

For direction you need 2 ears, but direction is not essential for understanding.
We just had lightning storms coming over and I changed from wired headphones to a bluetooth wireless one ear set
and watched a long documentary about what was it .. OK volcanos and deserts...
One ear no problem understanding it in German (not my native language) speaker very clear,
plenty of crap noise, thunder, silly music track, barking dogs, what have you.
To tune in to some person in a crowd is simply PLL to their brain waves.
not so much a direction issue.

OK my Usenet blob for today.

I have no comment on what you can and cannot perceive.

However, there are many unjustified assumptions and
incorrect statements in that.

One very small example is that one ear is -120dB, but I
can still perceive direction, albeit to a limited extent.
All I do is rotate my head and listen to the intensity
changes.

Of course.
I think you miss the point of what I am saying

Let's go back to simple organisms, and communications,
And efficiency,
To communicate what is in your head, and now we are before language even existed,
is basically data transfer.
What is in your head is there as 'ripples' in the brain wave pattern.
Make a noise (any noise) and this is important, you must have noticed in nature that most animals make specific
noises, let's stay with birds, screech, some people think that is a language
good luck with that, no, that noise is modulated by the brain wave patterns
like the SIDEBANDS of the radio transmission, double sideband, and the receiver (receiving animal)
must decode that and can only decode that by regenerating the carrier.
When it does it creates the same brain wave pattern 'Oh I see'.
This is universal.
Living beings (or living beans sometimes) ah to stay on topic
for those it is not efficient to send the carrier (brain waves, impossible too)
so nature being very efficient just modulates those and sends the sidebands,

I have been in nature far away from other noises and listened to birds,
If you let it happen you can see what they visualize in their heads, think about,
All of the sudden you see feathers and nests for example,,,
Not every body can do that, but that is how communication started before 'language'
was formed
As simple as that,


Maybe for me a little light went up when learning about SSB radio, single and double sideband, OF COURSE
THAT is how it works.
You can take that even further down to basics, little multi-cell creatures in water,
creating wave disturbances received and decoded by other similar creatures.
But all living systems have the same basic structures, and that language is universal.
Well to me old hat, some I penned down in my blog when I still updated that
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/blog/index.html
scroll down to Thursday, March 9. 2006 and read about the start of life,,,

'tronics is fun as it always tries to recreate what already exists, well we try,
nature was first,
But we learn slowly the hard way
Well evolution takes time.

Wed Aug 14 03:55:48 CEST 2019
I should be sleeping now.. ? Well time deletion?

It is however very important to understand these basic principals.
A bit different from all the crap that goes round on the subject,
My opinion.

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 14/08/19 07:25, Tom Gardner wrote:

Analogies are dangerous when used where they don't
apply, and your reply is revealing.

Today's dilbert is vaguely relevant
https://dilbert.com/strip/2019-08-14

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 14/08/19 03:04, Jan Panteltje wrote:

On a sunny day (Tue, 13 Aug 2019 21:22:26 +0100) it happened Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in <7_E4F.3162$665.931@fx28.am4>:

On 13/08/19 20:39, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Tue, 13 Aug 2019 11:35:19 -0700) it happened John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
3d06le583il6snkr2ugfnttn2k735buv9h@4ax.com>:

My wife is a speech pathologist; I'll ask her.

I have the same "problem", the inability to separate sounds, the lack
of "cocktail party" ability. Mine's not a hearing problem, it's a
signal processing thing that can't be fixed. It's not a big deal.

She might actually have a problem in one ear, which would certainly
make it harder to separate sound sources.


From my experience, and I think a lot is misunderstood about speech and how we process it, it works like this:

Everybody has brain wave frequencies (some for sleep some for awake etc)
Every sound you make, EVERY sound you make,
either by saying something, tapping on the table, moving around, or playing an instrument
is in some way phase locked to your brain wave pattern,

To decode we do the reverse: the brain does PLL from the higher frequency components
decoded in the ear down, to re-construct the source (speaking person's) brain wave pattern (synchronization).
If the 'sender' is chaotic then reconstruction is very hard and may fail.
Decoding = Understanding becomes hard.


If the receiver PLL has a problem and cannot lock reconstruction will fail.

I can still hear things I should not be able to hear,
for example I can hear if my 44 kHz ultrasonic anti fouling system is on.
Sort of a whistle,..
This sort of whistle that most people ignore tells me
even how many people are around moving (I hear a tone for every one).
Great intruder detection in the wild,.
It is based on the alien problem, per person you only need 3 ticks,
The ratio holds the base frequency of the other ones brain waves,

This is translated in the brain to a frequency at the extreme high end (where I do perceive it)
And for example the 44 kHz I can still detect with wax ear plugs, so is mostly detected
via skull I think, same for very low frequency vibrations.

No f*ck what everybody else think they know
this works for me.
Science will figure it out one of those days, maybe already has, maybe it is kept secret,
you are more transparent than you can ever imagine.

So a noisy teacher (brain pattern) makes listing and learning very very difficult.

eh

Frequency characteristic is of very little importance for understanding I think,
as long as some basic audio band (remember 300 to 3000 Hz phone works great) is present.

For direction you need 2 ears, but direction is not essential for understanding.
We just had lightning storms coming over and I changed from wired headphones to a bluetooth wireless one ear set
and watched a long documentary about what was it .. OK volcanos and deserts...
One ear no problem understanding it in German (not my native language) speaker very clear,
plenty of crap noise, thunder, silly music track, barking dogs, what have you.
To tune in to some person in a crowd is simply PLL to their brain waves.
not so much a direction issue.

OK my Usenet blob for today.

I have no comment on what you can and cannot perceive.

However, there are many unjustified assumptions and
incorrect statements in that.

One very small example is that one ear is -120dB, but I
can still perceive direction, albeit to a limited extent.
All I do is rotate my head and listen to the intensity
changes.

Of course.
I think you miss the point of what I am saying

Let's go back to simple organisms, and communications,
And efficiency,
To communicate what is in your head, and now we are before language even existed,
is basically data transfer.
What is in your head is there as 'ripples' in the brain wave pattern.
Make a noise (any noise) and this is important, you must have noticed in nature that most animals make specific
noises, let's stay with birds, screech, some people think that is a language
good luck with that, no, that noise is modulated by the brain wave patterns
like the SIDEBANDS of the radio transmission, double sideband, and the receiver (receiving animal)
must decode that and can only decode that by regenerating the carrier.
When it does it creates the same brain wave pattern 'Oh I see'.
This is universal.
Living beings (or living beans sometimes) ah to stay on topic
for those it is not efficient to send the carrier (brain waves, impossible too)
so nature being very efficient just modulates those and sends the sidebands,

I have been in nature far away from other noises and listened to birds,
If you let it happen you can see what they visualize in their heads, think about,
All of the sudden you see feathers and nests for example,,,
Not every body can do that, but that is how communication started before 'language'
was formed
As simple as that,


Maybe for me a little light went up when learning about SSB radio, single and double sideband, OF COURSE
THAT is how it works.
You can take that even further down to basics, little multi-cell creatures in water,
creating wave disturbances received and decoded by other similar creatures.
But all living systems have the same basic structures, and that language is universal.
Well to me old hat, some I penned down in my blog when I still updated that
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/blog/index.html
scroll down to Thursday, March 9. 2006 and read about the start of life,,,

'tronics is fun as it always tries to recreate what already exists, well we try,
nature was first,
But we learn slowly the hard way
Well evolution takes time.

Wed Aug 14 03:55:48 CEST 2019
I should be sleeping now.. ? Well time deletion?

It is however very important to understand these basic principals.
A bit different from all the crap that goes round on the subject,
My opinion.

Analogies are dangerous when used where they don't
apply, and your reply is revealing.

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Wed, 14 Aug 2019 07:25:16 +0100) it happened Tom Gardner
<spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in <gPN4F.840$Nw3.192@fx40.am4>:

On 14/08/19 03:04, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Tue, 13 Aug 2019 21:22:26 +0100) it happened Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in <7_E4F.3162$665.931@fx28.am4>:

On 13/08/19 20:39, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Tue, 13 Aug 2019 11:35:19 -0700) it happened John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
3d06le583il6snkr2ugfnttn2k735buv9h@4ax.com>:

My wife is a speech pathologist; I'll ask her.

I have the same "problem", the inability to separate sounds, the lack
of "cocktail party" ability. Mine's not a hearing problem, it's a
signal processing thing that can't be fixed. It's not a big deal.

She might actually have a problem in one ear, which would certainly
make it harder to separate sound sources.


From my experience, and I think a lot is misunderstood about speech and how we process it, it works like this:

Everybody has brain wave frequencies (some for sleep some for awake etc)
Every sound you make, EVERY sound you make,
either by saying something, tapping on the table, moving around, or playing an instrument
is in some way phase locked to your brain wave pattern,

To decode we do the reverse: the brain does PLL from the higher frequency components
decoded in the ear down, to re-construct the source (speaking person's) brain wave pattern (synchronization).
If the 'sender' is chaotic then reconstruction is very hard and may fail.
Decoding = Understanding becomes hard.


If the receiver PLL has a problem and cannot lock reconstruction will fail.

I can still hear things I should not be able to hear,
for example I can hear if my 44 kHz ultrasonic anti fouling system is on.
Sort of a whistle,..
This sort of whistle that most people ignore tells me
even how many people are around moving (I hear a tone for every one).
Great intruder detection in the wild,.
It is based on the alien problem, per person you only need 3 ticks,
The ratio holds the base frequency of the other ones brain waves,

This is translated in the brain to a frequency at the extreme high end (where I do perceive it)
And for example the 44 kHz I can still detect with wax ear plugs, so is mostly detected
via skull I think, same for very low frequency vibrations.

No f*ck what everybody else think they know
this works for me.
Science will figure it out one of those days, maybe already has, maybe it is kept secret,
you are more transparent than you can ever imagine.

So a noisy teacher (brain pattern) makes listing and learning very very difficult.

eh

Frequency characteristic is of very little importance for understanding I think,
as long as some basic audio band (remember 300 to 3000 Hz phone works great) is present.

For direction you need 2 ears, but direction is not essential for understanding.
We just had lightning storms coming over and I changed from wired headphones to a bluetooth wireless one ear set
and watched a long documentary about what was it .. OK volcanos and deserts...
One ear no problem understanding it in German (not my native language) speaker very clear,
plenty of crap noise, thunder, silly music track, barking dogs, what have you.
To tune in to some person in a crowd is simply PLL to their brain waves.
not so much a direction issue.

OK my Usenet blob for today.

I have no comment on what you can and cannot perceive.

However, there are many unjustified assumptions and
incorrect statements in that.

One very small example is that one ear is -120dB, but I
can still perceive direction, albeit to a limited extent.
All I do is rotate my head and listen to the intensity
changes.

Of course.
I think you miss the point of what I am saying

Let's go back to simple organisms, and communications,
And efficiency,
To communicate what is in your head, and now we are before language even existed,
is basically data transfer.
What is in your head is there as 'ripples' in the brain wave pattern.
Make a noise (any noise) and this is important, you must have noticed in nature that most animals make specific
noises, let's stay with birds, screech, some people think that is a language
good luck with that, no, that noise is modulated by the brain wave patterns
like the SIDEBANDS of the radio transmission, double sideband, and the receiver (receiving animal)
must decode that and can only decode that by regenerating the carrier.
When it does it creates the same brain wave pattern 'Oh I see'.
This is universal.
Living beings (or living beans sometimes) ah to stay on topic
for those it is not efficient to send the carrier (brain waves, impossible too)
so nature being very efficient just modulates those and sends the sidebands,

I have been in nature far away from other noises and listened to birds,
If you let it happen you can see what they visualize in their heads, think about,
All of the sudden you see feathers and nests for example,,,
Not every body can do that, but that is how communication started before 'language'
was formed
As simple as that,


Maybe for me a little light went up when learning about SSB radio, single and double sideband, OF COURSE
THAT is how it works.
You can take that even further down to basics, little multi-cell creatures in water,
creating wave disturbances received and decoded by other similar creatures.
But all living systems have the same basic structures, and that language is universal.
Well to me old hat, some I penned down in my blog when I still updated that
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/blog/index.html
scroll down to Thursday, March 9. 2006 and read about the start of life,,,

'tronics is fun as it always tries to recreate what already exists, well we try,
nature was first,
But we learn slowly the hard way
Well evolution takes time.

Wed Aug 14 03:55:48 CEST 2019
I should be sleeping now.. ? Well time deletion?

It is however very important to understand these basic principals.
A bit different from all the crap that goes round on the subject,
My opinion.


Analogies are dangerous when used where they don't
apply, and your reply is revealing.

I fully understand you are formed into some concepts by being brainwashed, be open.
;-)

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 14/08/19 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:

On a sunny day (Wed, 14 Aug 2019 07:25:16 +0100) it happened Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in <gPN4F.840$Nw3.192@fx40.am4>:

On 14/08/19 03:04, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Tue, 13 Aug 2019 21:22:26 +0100) it happened Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in <7_E4F.3162$665.931@fx28.am4>:

On 13/08/19 20:39, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Tue, 13 Aug 2019 11:35:19 -0700) it happened John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
3d06le583il6snkr2ugfnttn2k735buv9h@4ax.com>:

My wife is a speech pathologist; I'll ask her.

I have the same "problem", the inability to separate sounds, the lack
of "cocktail party" ability. Mine's not a hearing problem, it's a
signal processing thing that can't be fixed. It's not a big deal.

She might actually have a problem in one ear, which would certainly
make it harder to separate sound sources.


From my experience, and I think a lot is misunderstood about speech and how we process it, it works like this:

Everybody has brain wave frequencies (some for sleep some for awake etc)
Every sound you make, EVERY sound you make,
either by saying something, tapping on the table, moving around, or playing an instrument
is in some way phase locked to your brain wave pattern,

To decode we do the reverse: the brain does PLL from the higher frequency components
decoded in the ear down, to re-construct the source (speaking person's) brain wave pattern (synchronization).
If the 'sender' is chaotic then reconstruction is very hard and may fail.
Decoding = Understanding becomes hard.


If the receiver PLL has a problem and cannot lock reconstruction will fail.

I can still hear things I should not be able to hear,
for example I can hear if my 44 kHz ultrasonic anti fouling system is on.
Sort of a whistle,..
This sort of whistle that most people ignore tells me
even how many people are around moving (I hear a tone for every one).
Great intruder detection in the wild,.
It is based on the alien problem, per person you only need 3 ticks,
The ratio holds the base frequency of the other ones brain waves,

This is translated in the brain to a frequency at the extreme high end (where I do perceive it)
And for example the 44 kHz I can still detect with wax ear plugs, so is mostly detected
via skull I think, same for very low frequency vibrations.

No f*ck what everybody else think they know
this works for me.
Science will figure it out one of those days, maybe already has, maybe it is kept secret,
you are more transparent than you can ever imagine.

So a noisy teacher (brain pattern) makes listing and learning very very difficult.

eh

Frequency characteristic is of very little importance for understanding I think,
as long as some basic audio band (remember 300 to 3000 Hz phone works great) is present.

For direction you need 2 ears, but direction is not essential for understanding.
We just had lightning storms coming over and I changed from wired headphones to a bluetooth wireless one ear set
and watched a long documentary about what was it .. OK volcanos and deserts...
One ear no problem understanding it in German (not my native language) speaker very clear,
plenty of crap noise, thunder, silly music track, barking dogs, what have you.
To tune in to some person in a crowd is simply PLL to their brain waves.
not so much a direction issue.

OK my Usenet blob for today.

I have no comment on what you can and cannot perceive.

However, there are many unjustified assumptions and
incorrect statements in that.

One very small example is that one ear is -120dB, but I
can still perceive direction, albeit to a limited extent.
All I do is rotate my head and listen to the intensity
changes.

Of course.
I think you miss the point of what I am saying

Let's go back to simple organisms, and communications,
And efficiency,
To communicate what is in your head, and now we are before language even existed,
is basically data transfer.
What is in your head is there as 'ripples' in the brain wave pattern.
Make a noise (any noise) and this is important, you must have noticed in nature that most animals make specific
noises, let's stay with birds, screech, some people think that is a language
good luck with that, no, that noise is modulated by the brain wave patterns
like the SIDEBANDS of the radio transmission, double sideband, and the receiver (receiving animal)
must decode that and can only decode that by regenerating the carrier.
When it does it creates the same brain wave pattern 'Oh I see'.
This is universal.
Living beings (or living beans sometimes) ah to stay on topic
for those it is not efficient to send the carrier (brain waves, impossible too)
so nature being very efficient just modulates those and sends the sidebands,

I have been in nature far away from other noises and listened to birds,
If you let it happen you can see what they visualize in their heads, think about,
All of the sudden you see feathers and nests for example,,,
Not every body can do that, but that is how communication started before 'language'
was formed
As simple as that,


Maybe for me a little light went up when learning about SSB radio, single and double sideband, OF COURSE
THAT is how it works.
You can take that even further down to basics, little multi-cell creatures in water,
creating wave disturbances received and decoded by other similar creatures.
But all living systems have the same basic structures, and that language is universal.
Well to me old hat, some I penned down in my blog when I still updated that
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/blog/index.html
scroll down to Thursday, March 9. 2006 and read about the start of life,,,

'tronics is fun as it always tries to recreate what already exists, well we try,
nature was first,
But we learn slowly the hard way
Well evolution takes time.

Wed Aug 14 03:55:48 CEST 2019
I should be sleeping now.. ? Well time deletion?

It is however very important to understand these basic principals.
A bit different from all the crap that goes round on the subject,
My opinion.


Analogies are dangerous when used where they don't
apply, and your reply is revealing.

I fully understand you are formed into some concepts by being brainwashed, be open.
;-)

Nah. My PLL is locked onto a different harmonic.

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Wed, 14 Aug 2019 07:56:04 +0100) it happened Tom Gardner
<spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in <8gO4F.6897$4F2.2148@fx26.am4>:

On 14/08/19 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Wed, 14 Aug 2019 07:25:16 +0100) it happened Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in <gPN4F.840$Nw3.192@fx40.am4>:

On 14/08/19 03:04, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Tue, 13 Aug 2019 21:22:26 +0100) it happened Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in <7_E4F.3162$665.931@fx28.am4>:

On 13/08/19 20:39, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Tue, 13 Aug 2019 11:35:19 -0700) it happened John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
3d06le583il6snkr2ugfnttn2k735buv9h@4ax.com>:

My wife is a speech pathologist; I'll ask her.

I have the same "problem", the inability to separate sounds, the lack
of "cocktail party" ability. Mine's not a hearing problem, it's a
signal processing thing that can't be fixed. It's not a big deal.

She might actually have a problem in one ear, which would certainly
make it harder to separate sound sources.


From my experience, and I think a lot is misunderstood about speech and how we process it, it works like this:

Everybody has brain wave frequencies (some for sleep some for awake etc)
Every sound you make, EVERY sound you make,
either by saying something, tapping on the table, moving around, or playing an instrument
is in some way phase locked to your brain wave pattern,

To decode we do the reverse: the brain does PLL from the higher frequency components
decoded in the ear down, to re-construct the source (speaking person's) brain wave pattern (synchronization).
If the 'sender' is chaotic then reconstruction is very hard and may fail.
Decoding = Understanding becomes hard.


If the receiver PLL has a problem and cannot lock reconstruction will fail.

I can still hear things I should not be able to hear,
for example I can hear if my 44 kHz ultrasonic anti fouling system is on.
Sort of a whistle,..
This sort of whistle that most people ignore tells me
even how many people are around moving (I hear a tone for every one).
Great intruder detection in the wild,.
It is based on the alien problem, per person you only need 3 ticks,
The ratio holds the base frequency of the other ones brain waves,

This is translated in the brain to a frequency at the extreme high end (where I do perceive it)
And for example the 44 kHz I can still detect with wax ear plugs, so is mostly detected
via skull I think, same for very low frequency vibrations.

No f*ck what everybody else think they know
this works for me.
Science will figure it out one of those days, maybe already has, maybe it is kept secret,
you are more transparent than you can ever imagine.

So a noisy teacher (brain pattern) makes listing and learning very very difficult.

eh

Frequency characteristic is of very little importance for understanding I think,
as long as some basic audio band (remember 300 to 3000 Hz phone works great) is present.

For direction you need 2 ears, but direction is not essential for understanding.
We just had lightning storms coming over and I changed from wired headphones to a bluetooth wireless one ear set
and watched a long documentary about what was it .. OK volcanos and deserts...
One ear no problem understanding it in German (not my native language) speaker very clear,
plenty of crap noise, thunder, silly music track, barking dogs, what have you.
To tune in to some person in a crowd is simply PLL to their brain waves.
not so much a direction issue.

OK my Usenet blob for today.

I have no comment on what you can and cannot perceive.

However, there are many unjustified assumptions and
incorrect statements in that.

One very small example is that one ear is -120dB, but I
can still perceive direction, albeit to a limited extent.
All I do is rotate my head and listen to the intensity
changes.

Of course.
I think you miss the point of what I am saying

Let's go back to simple organisms, and communications,
And efficiency,
To communicate what is in your head, and now we are before language even existed,
is basically data transfer.
What is in your head is there as 'ripples' in the brain wave pattern.
Make a noise (any noise) and this is important, you must have noticed in nature that most animals make specific
noises, let's stay with birds, screech, some people think that is a language
good luck with that, no, that noise is modulated by the brain wave patterns
like the SIDEBANDS of the radio transmission, double sideband, and the receiver (receiving animal)
must decode that and can only decode that by regenerating the carrier.
When it does it creates the same brain wave pattern 'Oh I see'.
This is universal.
Living beings (or living beans sometimes) ah to stay on topic
for those it is not efficient to send the carrier (brain waves, impossible too)
so nature being very efficient just modulates those and sends the sidebands,

I have been in nature far away from other noises and listened to birds,
If you let it happen you can see what they visualize in their heads, think about,
All of the sudden you see feathers and nests for example,,,
Not every body can do that, but that is how communication started before 'language'
was formed
As simple as that,


Maybe for me a little light went up when learning about SSB radio, single and double sideband, OF COURSE
THAT is how it works.
You can take that even further down to basics, little multi-cell creatures in water,
creating wave disturbances received and decoded by other similar creatures.
But all living systems have the same basic structures, and that language is universal.
Well to me old hat, some I penned down in my blog when I still updated that
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/blog/index.html
scroll down to Thursday, March 9. 2006 and read about the start of life,,,

'tronics is fun as it always tries to recreate what already exists, well we try,
nature was first,
But we learn slowly the hard way
Well evolution takes time.

Wed Aug 14 03:55:48 CEST 2019
I should be sleeping now.. ? Well time deletion?

It is however very important to understand these basic principals.
A bit different from all the crap that goes round on the subject,
My opinion.


Analogies are dangerous when used where they don't
apply, and your reply is revealing.

I fully understand you are formed into some concepts by being brainwashed, be open.
;-)

Nah. My PLL is locked onto a different harmonic.

OIC

 

[Martin Brown]

On 13/08/2019 20:39, Jan Panteltje wrote:

On a sunny day (Tue, 13 Aug 2019 11:35:19 -0700) it happened John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
3d06le583il6snkr2ugfnttn2k735buv9h@4ax.com>:

My wife is a speech pathologist; I'll ask her.

I have the same "problem", the inability to separate sounds, the lack
of "cocktail party" ability. Mine's not a hearing problem, it's a
signal processing thing that can't be fixed. It's not a big deal.

I tend to have the opposite problem at a cocktail party if someone
nearby is boring me I tune into another more distant conversation.

She might actually have a problem in one ear, which would certainly
make it harder to separate sound sources.

From my experience, and I think a lot is misunderstood about speech and how we process it, it works like this:

Everybody has brain wave frequencies (some for sleep some for awake etc)
Every sound you make, EVERY sound you make,
either by saying something, tapping on the table, moving around, or playing an instrument
is in some way phase locked to your brain wave pattern,

To decode we do the reverse: the brain does PLL from the higher frequency components
decoded in the ear down, to re-construct the source (speaking person's) brain wave pattern (synchronization).
If the 'sender' is chaotic then reconstruction is very hard and may fail.
Decoding = Understanding becomes hard.

This is utter mumbo-jumbo gibberish. We had a lecture theatre which was
notorious for sending students to sleep. It had been built as a high
voltage research lab big and rectangular with copper conductive walls.
It rang like a bathroom only more so and at lower frequencies.

Some people had difficulty lecturing in it since the echo from the back
wall was so strong and delayed by just enough to be really off putting
and the long room reverberation time made the lecturers speech almost
unintelligible particularly if they talked quickly. In the end they had
to repanel it with proper acoustic baffles to scatter and diffuse sound.
The repurposed copper walls looked great but were a disaster.

Hearing is a pattern matching game but the ear and cochlea is a
dedicated hardware Fourier transform device and impulse detector. You
can hear pure tones directly. I have never worked out how the folk with
perfect pitch do it but most of us only have relative pitch sensitivity.
The impulse detector is different and pure timing based so that you can
turn to face an adversary or prey that makes a sudden sound.

I think the basic two ear audiometry test would be doable with a quiet
room and a PC or even a smartphone app provided you can live with some
systematic errors due to earbud resonances. If you use exactly the same
setup every time then you should be able to detect changes.

I am amazed that you get a handwritten report like that - all the UK
audiology tests I have seen for nearly a decade have been computer
generated. I did some work for an audiologist a while back turning his
machines raw data into the exact form he wanted for his reports.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Jan Panteltje]

BTW do you actually know about the alien problem?

Alien comes to earth, finds everything very interesting,
wants to take all that knowless^H^H^H^Hledge home,
but all the books do not fit into his little flying saucer.

So he takes Encyclopedia Britannica and writes the text out as one long ASCII number,

He then does 1 / number that gives him a ratio.
He then takes a stick and puts a mark on the stick at exactly that ratio, and flies home with it.


In our world the resolution in the stick is limited by the molecules and atoms in it,
so it does not work for such a large data set.

If you however look at the granularity of time things become very different.
In the dimension of time 3 ticks give all the info about you.

 

[boB]

On Tue, 13 Aug 2019 05:27:07 -0700 (PDT), klaus.kragelund@gmail.com
wrote:

Hi

My daughter at 10 years old has some challenges in hearing a message from the teacher in a noise environment (could just be that she just don't want to listen)

Anyway, we found a clinic doing binaural pure tone audiometry test (BPTA) and optical tests, since the suspicion is that she has a hearing disorder that muddles up sound in her head

So we paid 300 USD and they conducted a test:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5z9otpweiew5civ/Hearing%20Test_08_2019.pdf?dl=0

The hearing test is on page 1 and is a binaural pure tone audiometry test:

https://www.dizziness-and-balance.com/testing/hearing/audiogram.html

Afterwards we had a consultation in which the responsible person told us that the speech recognition was caused by differences in the amplitude between the left and right ear, which caused interference. But AFAIK only phase difference can create interference

Also, they told us that the headphones that we bought that should be used for some audio treatment (how that works is beyond me), should be a specific model due to the length of the cable to the headphones (sigh)

I am a little skeptical about the test, if they really report the right numbers and since the other baloney I would like to reproduce the test myself

I have good headphones in my home lab, good signal generator, so I could try to reproduce the test

I have a suspecion that they just put the dots to show there is a problem, even though there might not be (maybe I am overly skeptical)

Anyone ever done this, and heard about this BPTA test?

Thanks

Klaus

I went to the ear-nose and throat doctor a couple of years ago when I
thought I had high pressure in one or both ears and they confirmed
that. It got better..... But...
I also had a hearing test and it looks like the one you uploaded, kind
of. Only tested upn to 8kHz. I thought I remembered MANY years ago
having a hearing test that went higher at the U of W.

In my followup, I asked the doctor why they only tested up to 8kHz. He
said that people can typically only hear up to 8 or 9 kHz ! Even
young childred can only hear up to around 10 kHz he said !

Geesh ! Where are these doctors getting their licenses from ?

I will NOT be going back to him again for a hearing test !

 

On Wednesday, August 14, 2019 at 2:56:25 AM UTC-5, Jan Panteltje wrote:

BTW do you actually know about the alien problem?

Alien comes to earth, finds everything very interesting,
wants to take all that knowless^H^H^H^Hledge home,
but all the books do not fit into his little flying saucer.

So he takes Encyclopedia Britannica and writes the text out as one long ASCII number,

He then does 1 / number that gives him a ratio.
He then takes a stick and puts a mark on the stick at exactly that ratio, and flies home with it.


In our world the resolution in the stick is limited by the molecules and atoms in it,
so it does not work for such a large data set.

If you however look at the granularity of time things become very different.
In the dimension of time 3 ticks give all the info about you.

I want your dealer's number after that...

 

I might take this to audioasylum. Then people are pretty sharp on the subject no matter what you think of their (non sexual)fetish.

It is not that crazy for them to have twelve grand in their ears, some people spend that on a pair of earrings. (hopefully for their girl) It makes sens when you have a $10,000 stereo for which you build a $40,000 addition on your house not including audio enhancement. (like bass absorbers in the walls and all kinds of shit, plus the entire construction, along with brand new electrical which costs a fortune these days).

All names will be redacted, I won't even give the URL of the thread, I will just pull in the text, remove the URLS and just add s screenshot - of course with the name redacted because I got it before you modified. My browser always downloads PDFs, never open. That is how I want it.

 

On Wednesday, 14 August 2019 19:20:39 UTC+1, boB wrote:

In my followup, I asked the doctor why they only tested up to 8kHz. He
said that people can typically only hear up to 8 or 9 kHz ! Even
young childred can only hear up to around 10 kHz he said !

Geesh ! Where are these doctors getting their licenses from ?

I will NOT be going back to him again for a hearing test !

The reality is that it becomes very difficult to calibrate audiometric
headphones much above 8kHz and also the very high frequencies are
not considered clinically significant.
Researchers who are interested in very accurate measurements use
probe microphones in the ear canal close to the eardrum for calibration.
This is not practical for routine clinical use.

John

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 14 Aug 2019 11:20:37 -0700, boB <boB@K7IQ.com> wrote:

On Tue, 13 Aug 2019 05:27:07 -0700 (PDT), klaus.kragelund@gmail.com
wrote:

Hi

My daughter at 10 years old has some challenges in hearing a message from the teacher in a noise environment (could just be that she just don't want to listen)

Anyway, we found a clinic doing binaural pure tone audiometry test (BPTA) and optical tests, since the suspicion is that she has a hearing disorder that muddles up sound in her head

So we paid 300 USD and they conducted a test:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5z9otpweiew5civ/Hearing%20Test_08_2019.pdf?dl=0

The hearing test is on page 1 and is a binaural pure tone audiometry test:

https://www.dizziness-and-balance.com/testing/hearing/audiogram.html

Afterwards we had a consultation in which the responsible person told us that the speech recognition was caused by differences in the amplitude between the left and right ear, which caused interference. But AFAIK only phase difference can create interference

Also, they told us that the headphones that we bought that should be used for some audio treatment (how that works is beyond me), should be a specific model due to the length of the cable to the headphones (sigh)

I am a little skeptical about the test, if they really report the right numbers and since the other baloney I would like to reproduce the test myself

I have good headphones in my home lab, good signal generator, so I could try to reproduce the test

I have a suspecion that they just put the dots to show there is a problem, even though there might not be (maybe I am overly skeptical)

Anyone ever done this, and heard about this BPTA test?

Thanks

Klaus


I went to the ear-nose and throat doctor a couple of years ago when I
thought I had high pressure in one or both ears and they confirmed
that. It got better..... But...
I also had a hearing test and it looks like the one you uploaded, kind
of. Only tested upn to 8kHz. I thought I remembered MANY years ago
having a hearing test that went higher at the U of W.

In my followup, I asked the doctor why they only tested up to 8kHz. He
said that people can typically only hear up to 8 or 9 kHz ! Even
young childred can only hear up to around 10 kHz he said !

Geesh ! Where are these doctors getting their licenses from ?

I will NOT be going back to him again for a hearing test !

I could hear 22 KHz when I was a teenager.

I could hear a TV set horizontal deflection, 15.750 KHz, walking past
a house with a window open.

In my experience, ENTs are the worst doctors.

 

[Phil Allison]

jrwal...@gmail.com wrote:

In my followup, I asked the doctor why they only tested up to 8kHz. He
said that people can typically only hear up to 8 or 9 kHz ! Even
young childred can only hear up to around 10 kHz he said !

Geesh ! Where are these doctors getting their licenses from ?

I will NOT be going back to him again for a hearing test !


The reality is that it becomes very difficult to calibrate audiometric
headphones much above 8kHz and also the very high frequencies are
not considered clinically significant.

** Yes, it a silly mindset based on long practice in the hearing test game.

" We do it this way so it MUST be the only way to do it" stuff. Anyone with even basic audio gear ( sig gen and decent headphones ) knows it is false. The audio band has been defined as 20-20kHz for a great many decades.

It has also long been known that the upper limit of hearing falls with age, for someone in their 60s the figure is about 12kHz, females scoring a bit higher than males, on average.


FYI:

Long ago, when suitable standards for digital audio were being devised, researchers worked on finding the threshold of audibility for a low pass filter inserted in an audio chain.

Using live sound sources and equipment with response beyond hum hearing, sharp cut of filters were tried, in steps, from about 25kHz downwards.

The group of listeners that were best able to reliably detect the presence or not of such filters were teenage girls, most of whom could hear 22kHz or above in sine wave checks.

IIRC, a sharp filter at 18kHz was just detectable by some of the teenage girl group.



...... Phil

 

[amdx]

On 8/14/2019 4:11 PM, John Larkin wrote:

On Wed, 14 Aug 2019 11:20:37 -0700, boB <boB@K7IQ.com> wrote:

On Tue, 13 Aug 2019 05:27:07 -0700 (PDT), klaus.kragelund@gmail.com
wrote:

Hi

My daughter at 10 years old has some challenges in hearing a message from the teacher in a noise environment (could just be that she just don't want to listen)

Anyway, we found a clinic doing binaural pure tone audiometry test (BPTA) and optical tests, since the suspicion is that she has a hearing disorder that muddles up sound in her head

So we paid 300 USD and they conducted a test:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5z9otpweiew5civ/Hearing%20Test_08_2019.pdf?dl=0

The hearing test is on page 1 and is a binaural pure tone audiometry test:

https://www.dizziness-and-balance.com/testing/hearing/audiogram.html

Afterwards we had a consultation in which the responsible person told us that the speech recognition was caused by differences in the amplitude between the left and right ear, which caused interference. But AFAIK only phase difference can create interference

Also, they told us that the headphones that we bought that should be used for some audio treatment (how that works is beyond me), should be a specific model due to the length of the cable to the headphones (sigh)

I am a little skeptical about the test, if they really report the right numbers and since the other baloney I would like to reproduce the test myself

I have good headphones in my home lab, good signal generator, so I could try to reproduce the test

I have a suspecion that they just put the dots to show there is a problem, even though there might not be (maybe I am overly skeptical)

Anyone ever done this, and heard about this BPTA test?

Thanks

Klaus


I went to the ear-nose and throat doctor a couple of years ago when I
thought I had high pressure in one or both ears and they confirmed
that. It got better..... But...
I also had a hearing test and it looks like the one you uploaded, kind
of. Only tested upn to 8kHz. I thought I remembered MANY years ago
having a hearing test that went higher at the U of W.

In my followup, I asked the doctor why they only tested up to 8kHz. He
said that people can typically only hear up to 8 or 9 kHz ! Even
young childred can only hear up to around 10 kHz he said !

Geesh ! Where are these doctors getting their licenses from ?

I will NOT be going back to him again for a hearing test !

I could hear 22 KHz when I was a teenager.

I could hear a TV set horizontal deflection, 15.750 KHz, walking past
a house with a window open.

In my experience, ENTs are the worst doctors.



Found this test, FWIW.
https://hearingtest.online/

Says I have severe hearing loss at 8K both ears.
At 4k Moderate loss in left ear, mild in right ear.
normal below that.
I would think the graphs would be marked in DB but they say DBhl.
I think that means db down from your initial calibration level.
So, from initial calibration, left ear down 60db @ 4kHz and 80db @ 8kHz.
Really? yikes!
Mikek

 

[amdx]

On 8/14/2019 11:04 PM, amdx wrote:

On 8/14/2019 4:11 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 14 Aug 2019 11:20:37 -0700, boB <boB@K7IQ.com> wrote:

On Tue, 13 Aug 2019 05:27:07 -0700 (PDT), klaus.kragelund@gmail.com
wrote:

Hi

My daughter at 10 years old has some challenges in hearing a message
from the teacher in a noise environment (could just be that she just
don't want to listen)

Anyway, we found a clinic doing binaural pure tone audiometry test
(BPTA) and optical tests, since the suspicion is that she has a
hearing disorder that muddles up sound in her head

So we paid 300 USD and they conducted a test:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5z9otpweiew5civ/Hearing%20Test_08_2019.pdf?dl=0


The hearing test is on page 1 and is a binaural pure tone audiometry
test:

https://www.dizziness-and-balance.com/testing/hearing/audiogram.html

Afterwards we had a consultation in which the responsible person
told us that the speech recognition was caused by differences in the
amplitude between the left and right ear, which caused interference.
But AFAIK only phase difference can create interference

Also, they told us that the headphones that we bought that should be
used for some audio treatment (how that works is beyond me), should
be a specific model due to the length of the cable to the headphones
(sigh)

I am a little skeptical about the test, if they really report the
right numbers and since the other baloney I would like to reproduce
the test myself

I have good headphones in my home lab, good signal generator, so I
could try to reproduce the test

I have a suspecion that they just put the dots to show there is a
problem, even though there might not be (maybe I am overly skeptical)

Anyone ever done this, and heard about this BPTA test?

Thanks

Klaus


I went to the ear-nose and throat doctor a couple of years ago when I
thought I had high pressure in one or both ears and they confirmed
that.  It got better..... But...
I also had a hearing test and it looks like the one you uploaded, kind
of.  Only tested upn to 8kHz.  I thought I remembered MANY years ago
having a hearing test that went higher at the U of W.

In my followup, I asked the doctor why they only tested up to 8kHz. He
said that people can typically only hear up to 8 or 9 kHz !  Even
young childred can only hear up to around 10 kHz he said !

Geesh !  Where are these doctors getting their licenses from ?

I will NOT be going back to him again for a hearing test !

I could hear 22 KHz when I was a teenager.

I could hear a TV set horizontal deflection, 15.750 KHz, walking past
a house with a window open.

In my experience, ENTs are the worst doctors.


 Found this test, FWIW.
https://hearingtest.online/

Says I have severe hearing loss at 8K both ears.
At 4k Moderate loss in left ear, mild in right ear.
normal below that.
 I would think the graphs would be marked in DB but they say DBhl.
I think that means db down from your initial calibration level.
So, from initial calibration, left ear down 60db @ 4kHz and 80db @ 8kHz.
Really? yikes!
                                 Mikek

10 useful hearing tests,
> https://mynoise.net/bestOnlineHearingTests.php

Mikek

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 13 Aug 2019 09:31:32 -0700 (PDT), klaus.kragelund@gmail.com
wrote:

On Tuesday, 13 August 2019 17:18:09 UTC+2, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Does she have an ear wax problem? Did you clean out any ear wax
before running the test?

That's hilarious, actually she didn't.

You should clean out the ear wax before a hearing test. I'm told that
it has a big effect on the test results. Get some medical advice from
a pediatrician if you suspect that there is substantial quantity of
ear wax involved.

Reminds me of my wifes grandfather, who wanted hearing aids, could
not hear anything. They came pretty far before they checked his
ear wax ;-)

Yes, that happens. One of my friends generates huge quantities of ear
wax. He was recently fitted with hearing aids. He had the
audiologist confused because he claimed that his hearing was
acceptable in the morning, but deteriorates in the afternoon and
evening. It seems he cleans the ear wax in the morning, but generates
enough ear wax during the afternoon and evening to affect his hearing.
This is also a problem with the new hearing aid. He has to clean or
replace the wax guards on his hearing aid regularly or the wax buildup
will clog the wax guard and render the hearing aid useless.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558