OT: My daughters binaural pure tone audiometry test, opinion

Hi

My daughter at 10 years old has some challenges in hearing a message from the teacher in a noise environment (could just be that she just don't want to listen)

Anyway, we found a clinic doing binaural pure tone audiometry test (BPTA) and optical tests, since the suspicion is that she has a hearing disorder that muddles up sound in her head

So we paid 300 USD and they conducted a test:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5z9otpweiew5civ/Hearing%20Test_08_2019.pdf?dl=0

The hearing test is on page 1 and is a binaural pure tone audiometry test:

https://www.dizziness-and-balance.com/testing/hearing/audiogram.html

Afterwards we had a consultation in which the responsible person told us that the speech recognition was caused by differences in the amplitude between the left and right ear, which caused interference. But AFAIK only phase difference can create interference

Also, they told us that the headphones that we bought that should be used for some audio treatment (how that works is beyond me), should be a specific model due to the length of the cable to the headphones (sigh)

I am a little skeptical about the test, if they really report the right numbers and since the other baloney I would like to reproduce the test myself

I have good headphones in my home lab, good signal generator, so I could try to reproduce the test

I have a suspecion that they just put the dots to show there is a problem, even though there might not be (maybe I am overly skeptical)

Anyone ever done this, and heard about this BPTA test?

Thanks

Klaus

 

[amdx]

On 8/13/2019 7:27 AM, klaus.kragelund@gmail.com wrote:

Hi

My daughter at 10 years old has some challenges in hearing a message from the teacher in a noise environment (could just be that she just don't want to listen)

Anyway, we found a clinic doing binaural pure tone audiometry test (BPTA) and optical tests, since the suspicion is that she has a hearing disorder that muddles up sound in her head

So we paid 300 USD and they conducted a test:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5z9otpweiew5civ/Hearing%20Test_08_2019.pdf?dl=0

The hearing test is on page 1 and is a binaural pure tone audiometry test:

https://www.dizziness-and-balance.com/testing/hearing/audiogram.html

Afterwards we had a consultation in which the responsible person told us that the speech recognition was caused by differences in the amplitude between the left and right ear, which caused interference. But AFAIK only phase difference can create interference

Also, they told us that the headphones that we bought that should be used for some audio treatment (how that works is beyond me), should be a specific model due to the length of the cable to the headphones (sigh)

I am a little skeptical about the test, if they really report the right numbers and since the other baloney I would like to reproduce the test myself

I have good headphones in my home lab, good signal generator, so I could try to reproduce the test

I have a suspecion that they just put the dots to show there is a problem, even though there might not be (maybe I am overly skeptical)

Anyone ever done this, and heard about this BPTA test?

Thanks

Klaus

The full article may be difficult to get, and I'm not 100% sure they
are comparing the same two tests as you are, but here's the conclusion.

Conclusions: The proportion of partial audibility data in a given data
set may influence the relative strength of the relationship between BPTA
and HINT Noise Front thresholds. This brings into question the
convention of using pure-tone average as a predictor of speech
recognition in noise ability.

> https://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/aaa/jaaa/pre-prints/content-aaa-jaaa-19-031

Mikek

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Tue, 13 Aug 2019 05:27:07 -0700 (PDT)) it happened
klaus.kragelund@gmail.com wrote in
<0fc7c24a-ed29-4e1f-b3b9-e62ce4a509ba@googlegroups.com>:

Hi

My daughter at 10 years old has some challenges in hearing a message from the
teacher in a noise environment (could just be that she just don't want to
listen)

Anyway, we found a clinic doing binaural pure tone audiometry test (BPTA) and
optical tests, since the suspicion is that she has a hearing disorder that
muddles up sound in her head

So we paid 300 USD and they conducted a test:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5z9otpweiew5civ/Hearing%20Test_08_2019.pdf?dl=3D0

The hearing test is on page 1 and is a binaural pure tone audiometry test:

https://www.dizziness-and-balance.com/testing/hearing/audiogram.html

Afterwards we had a consultation in which the responsible person told us that
the speech recognition was caused by differences in the amplitude between
the left and right ear, which caused interference. But AFAIK only phase difference
can create interference

Also, they told us that the headphones that we bought that should be used for
some audio treatment (how that works is beyond me), should be a specific
model due to the length of the cable to the headphones (sigh)

I am a little skeptical about the test, if they really report the right numbers
and since the other baloney I would like to reproduce the test myself

I have good headphones in my home lab, good signal generator, so I could try
to reproduce the test

I have a suspecion that they just put the dots to show there is a problem, even
though there might not be (maybe I am overly skeptical)

Anyone ever done this, and heard about this BPTA test?

Thanks

Klaus

I tested my ears many times with Sennheiser headphones and signal generator.
It was also done when I started to work for some company,
they had some frequencies and for each frequency asked if you could still hear it
when they turned down the volume some percentage (3 dB or so I assume).

Was 100% OK (I have 'super ears', my colleagues did not score so good ).
But am older now and do not hear much above 10 kHz.
But you can of course test the same way yourself,
The rest you quote of them makes no sense whatsoever to me,
In my school days I would in SOME classes just fall asleep,
or doze away, teacher would notice and call me in front and asked questions
and I would have NO CLUE, lots of hilarity.
Depends on the teacher trust me, later got an other teacher and I has the highest notes
and did not fall asleep.

 

[amdx]

On 8/13/2019 7:27 AM, klaus.kragelund@gmail.com wrote:

Hi

My daughter at 10 years old has some challenges in hearing a message from the teacher in a noise environment (could just be that she just don't want to listen)

Anyway, we found a clinic doing binaural pure tone audiometry test (BPTA) and optical tests, since the suspicion is that she has a hearing disorder that muddles up sound in her head

So we paid 300 USD and they conducted a test:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5z9otpweiew5civ/Hearing%20Test_08_2019.pdf?dl=0

The hearing test is on page 1 and is a binaural pure tone audiometry test:

https://www.dizziness-and-balance.com/testing/hearing/audiogram.html

Afterwards we had a consultation in which the responsible person told us that the speech recognition was caused by differences in the amplitude between the left and right ear, which caused interference. But AFAIK only phase difference can create interference

Also, they told us that the headphones that we bought that should be used for some audio treatment (how that works is beyond me), should be a specific model due to the length of the cable to the headphones (sigh)

I am a little skeptical about the test, if they really report the right numbers and since the other baloney I would like to reproduce the test myself

I have good headphones in my home lab, good signal generator, so I could try to reproduce the test

I have a suspecion that they just put the dots to show there is a problem, even though there might not be (maybe I am overly skeptical)

Anyone ever done this, and heard about this BPTA test?

Thanks

Klaus

Not related to your case, I found this line in an article.
" Presbycusis or age-related hearing loss for example is characterized
by a high frequency roll-off (increase in thresholds). Noise-induced
hearing loss has a characteristic notch at 4000 Hz."
Last time I did a home test, I stopped hearing at 4000Hz in one ear
and 4,300Hz in the other.
Maybe if i went to 4600Hz or 4800Hz, I would have started hearing again.
Need to try that.

Mikek

 

[John Robertson]

On 2019/08/13 5:27 a.m., klaus.kragelund@gmail.com wrote:

Hi

My daughter at 10 years old has some challenges in hearing a message from the teacher in a noise environment (could just be that she just don't want to listen)

Anyway, we found a clinic doing binaural pure tone audiometry test (BPTA) and optical tests, since the suspicion is that she has a hearing disorder that muddles up sound in her head

So we paid 300 USD and they conducted a test:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5z9otpweiew5civ/Hearing%20Test_08_2019.pdf?dl=0

The hearing test is on page 1 and is a binaural pure tone audiometry test:

https://www.dizziness-and-balance.com/testing/hearing/audiogram.html

Afterwards we had a consultation in which the responsible person told us that the speech recognition was caused by differences in the amplitude between the left and right ear, which caused interference. But AFAIK only phase difference can create interference

Possible Snake Oil - do more research.

I have a friend who is deaf in one ear, he can distinguish speech quite
well as long as his good ear is turned to the speaker.

Also, they told us that the headphones that we bought that should be used for some audio treatment (how that works is beyond me), should be a specific model due to the length of the cable to the headphones (sigh)

Yeah, Snake Oil.

I am a little skeptical about the test, if they really report the right numbers and since the other baloney I would like to reproduce the test myself

I have good headphones in my home lab, good signal generator, so I could try to reproduce the test

I have a suspecion that they just put the dots to show there is a problem, even though there might not be (maybe I am overly skeptical)

Anyone ever done this, and heard about this BPTA test?

Sounds to me like a company with an agenda to sell their products. Ask
your doctor about this.

John :-#(#

PS, you should black out her name and birth date on the PDF...

Thanks

Klaus

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 13 Aug 2019 05:27:07 -0700 (PDT), klaus.kragelund@gmail.com
wrote:

CDIS 4027 Hearing Assessment Puretone Audiometry Pt 3
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHgvcm31lOw>
More:
<https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=CDIS+4027>
There's quite a bit on acceptable standards, symbols used, etc.
There's an example of bilateral hearing loss starting at about 16:30.
For a 10 year old, a 15dB variation is considered normal. Offhand, I
would say her results are at the lower edge of normal.

Does she have an ear wax problem? Did you clean out any ear wax
before running the test?

I am a little skeptical about the test, if they really report
the right numbers and since the other baloney I would like to
reproduce the test myself

In the USA, Costco stores will do free hearing tests for hearing aid
candidates.

Most of the online tests are rather crude. I just ran this test:
https://www.resound.com/en-us/online-hearing-test/
It indicated that I have almost no hearing loss and do not need a
hearing aid. I have it my email address and am awaiting the test
results.

Ooops. I'm late. More later....
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

On Tuesday, 13 August 2019 17:18:09 UTC+2, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Tue, 13 Aug 2019 05:27:07 -0700 (PDT), klaus.kragelund@gmail.com
wrote:

CDIS 4027 Hearing Assessment Puretone Audiometry Pt 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHgvcm31lOw
More:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=CDIS+4027
There's quite a bit on acceptable standards, symbols used, etc.
There's an example of bilateral hearing loss starting at about 16:30.
For a 10 year old, a 15dB variation is considered normal. Offhand, I
would say her results are at the lower edge of normal.

Does she have an ear wax problem? Did you clean out any ear wax
before running the test?

That's hilarious, actually she didn't.

Reminds me of my wifes grandfather, who wanted hearing aids, could not hear anything. They came pretty far before they checked his ear wax ;-)

 

On Tuesday, 13 August 2019 16:07:57 UTC+2, amdx wrote:

On 8/13/2019 7:27 AM, klaus.kragelund@gmail.com wrote:
Hi

My daughter at 10 years old has some challenges in hearing a message from the teacher in a noise environment (could just be that she just don't want to listen)

Anyway, we found a clinic doing binaural pure tone audiometry test (BPTA) and optical tests, since the suspicion is that she has a hearing disorder that muddles up sound in her head

So we paid 300 USD and they conducted a test:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5z9otpweiew5civ/Hearing%20Test_08_2019.pdf?dl=0

The hearing test is on page 1 and is a binaural pure tone audiometry test:

https://www.dizziness-and-balance.com/testing/hearing/audiogram.html

Afterwards we had a consultation in which the responsible person told us that the speech recognition was caused by differences in the amplitude between the left and right ear, which caused interference. But AFAIK only phase difference can create interference

Also, they told us that the headphones that we bought that should be used for some audio treatment (how that works is beyond me), should be a specific model due to the length of the cable to the headphones (sigh)

I am a little skeptical about the test, if they really report the right numbers and since the other baloney I would like to reproduce the test myself

I have good headphones in my home lab, good signal generator, so I could try to reproduce the test

I have a suspecion that they just put the dots to show there is a problem, even though there might not be (maybe I am overly skeptical)

Anyone ever done this, and heard about this BPTA test?

Thanks

Klaus


The full article may be difficult to get, and I'm not 100% sure they
are comparing the same two tests as you are, but here's the conclusion.

Conclusions: The proportion of partial audibility data in a given data
set may influence the relative strength of the relationship between BPTA
and HINT Noise Front thresholds. This brings into question the
convention of using pure-tone average as a predictor of speech
recognition in noise ability.

https://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/aaa/jaaa/pre-prints/content-aaa-jaaa-19-031

Mikek

Yeah, I read some papers also, that discusses if the test results can be trusted at all

 

On Tuesday, 13 August 2019 17:16:54 UTC+2, John Robertson wrote:

On 2019/08/13 5:27 a.m., klaus.kragelund@gmail.com wrote:
Hi

My daughter at 10 years old has some challenges in hearing a message from the teacher in a noise environment (could just be that she just don't want to listen)

Anyway, we found a clinic doing binaural pure tone audiometry test (BPTA) and optical tests, since the suspicion is that she has a hearing disorder that muddles up sound in her head

So we paid 300 USD and they conducted a test:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5z9otpweiew5civ/Hearing%20Test_08_2019.pdf?dl=0

The hearing test is on page 1 and is a binaural pure tone audiometry test:

https://www.dizziness-and-balance.com/testing/hearing/audiogram.html

Afterwards we had a consultation in which the responsible person told us that the speech recognition was caused by differences in the amplitude between the left and right ear, which caused interference. But AFAIK only phase difference can create interference

Possible Snake Oil - do more research.

I have a friend who is deaf in one ear, he can distinguish speech quite
well as long as his good ear is turned to the speaker.


Also, they told us that the headphones that we bought that should be used for some audio treatment (how that works is beyond me), should be a specific model due to the length of the cable to the headphones (sigh)

Yeah, Snake Oil.

I just found frequency response of the suggested headphones. Test done by some unknown source:

https://4.files.edl.io/2cf4/07/27/18/174013-09dd33c4-819d-483f-80cc-c5607d6c96cb.pdf

Page 2, bottom, K77 type

Shows 7dB difference between left and right

These are the ones used for the playback, so they are playing back the wrong level. Of course not those used for the test, but this is almost equally as bad since it is the sound used to "correct" the ears (HOW?)

Cheers

Klaus

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 13/08/19 13:27, klaus.kragelund@gmail.com wrote:

Hi

My daughter at 10 years old has some challenges in hearing a message from the teacher in a noise environment (could just be that she just don't want to listen)

Anyway, we found a clinic doing binaural pure tone audiometry test (BPTA) and optical tests, since the suspicion is that she has a hearing disorder that muddles up sound in her head

So we paid 300 USD and they conducted a test:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5z9otpweiew5civ/Hearing%20Test_08_2019.pdf?dl=0

The hearing test is on page 1 and is a binaural pure tone audiometry test:

https://www.dizziness-and-balance.com/testing/hearing/audiogram.html

Afterwards we had a consultation in which the responsible person told us that the speech recognition was caused by differences in the amplitude between the left and right ear, which caused interference. But AFAIK only phase difference can create interference

Also, they told us that the headphones that we bought that should be used for some audio treatment (how that works is beyond me), should be a specific model due to the length of the cable to the headphones (sigh)

I am a little skeptical about the test, if they really report the right numbers and since the other baloney I would like to reproduce the test myself

I have good headphones in my home lab, good signal generator, so I could try to reproduce the test

I have a suspecion that they just put the dots to show there is a problem, even though there might not be (maybe I am overly skeptical)

Anyone ever done this, and heard about this BPTA test?

Well, the ear-brain system is horribly non-linear in every
dimension you can think of, and then some. Hence it would
be rash to rule out more than you might expect. On the
plus side, mp3s are possible.

The tests done on my ears are:
- eyeball to check external obstructions
- tones
- tones with masking (severe/profound deafness)
- bone conduction to see if cochlea is working
- TDR to spot otosclerosis and glue ear
- and soon an MRI to check for acoustic neuroma
which I think is unlikely

If my hearing gets a little worse, I'll be eligible
for a cochlea implant. I didn't know that oldies
could benefit from them. Old dogs and new tricks
etc.

Fortunately there are no commercial incentives, so
that's one very real problem I don't have to worry
about.

 

Another thing you might try which costs almost nothing is to use an earplug in one ear. Let her pick which.

 

On Tuesday, 13 August 2019 17:16:54 UTC+2, John Robertson wrote:

On 2019/08/13 5:27 a.m., klaus.kragelund@gmail.com wrote:
Hi

My daughter at 10 years old has some challenges in hearing a message from the teacher in a noise environment (could just be that she just don't want to listen)

Anyway, we found a clinic doing binaural pure tone audiometry test (BPTA) and optical tests, since the suspicion is that she has a hearing disorder that muddles up sound in her head

So we paid 300 USD and they conducted a test:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5z9otpweiew5civ/Hearing%20Test_08_2019.pdf?dl=0

The hearing test is on page 1 and is a binaural pure tone audiometry test:

https://www.dizziness-and-balance.com/testing/hearing/audiogram.html

Afterwards we had a consultation in which the responsible person told us that the speech recognition was caused by differences in the amplitude between the left and right ear, which caused interference. But AFAIK only phase difference can create interference

Possible Snake Oil - do more research.

I have a friend who is deaf in one ear, he can distinguish speech quite
well as long as his good ear is turned to the speaker.


Also, they told us that the headphones that we bought that should be used for some audio treatment (how that works is beyond me), should be a specific model due to the length of the cable to the headphones (sigh)

Yeah, Snake Oil.


I am a little skeptical about the test, if they really report the right numbers and since the other baloney I would like to reproduce the test myself

I have good headphones in my home lab, good signal generator, so I could try to reproduce the test

I have a suspecion that they just put the dots to show there is a problem, even though there might not be (maybe I am overly skeptical)

Anyone ever done this, and heard about this BPTA test?

Sounds to me like a company with an agenda to sell their products. Ask
your doctor about this.

We are getting a second opinion from the school hearing consultant

PS, you should black out her name and birth date on the PDF...

Good point, just did that

 

[Rick C]

On Tuesday, August 13, 2019 at 8:27:12 AM UTC-4, klaus.k...@gmail.com wrote:

Hi

My daughter at 10 years old has some challenges in hearing a message from the teacher in a noise environment (could just be that she just don't want to listen)

Anyway, we found a clinic doing binaural pure tone audiometry test (BPTA) and optical tests, since the suspicion is that she has a hearing disorder that muddles up sound in her head

So we paid 300 USD and they conducted a test:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5z9otpweiew5civ/Hearing%20Test_08_2019.pdf?dl=0

The hearing test is on page 1 and is a binaural pure tone audiometry test:

https://www.dizziness-and-balance.com/testing/hearing/audiogram.html

Afterwards we had a consultation in which the responsible person told us that the speech recognition was caused by differences in the amplitude between the left and right ear, which caused interference. But AFAIK only phase difference can create interference

Lol! I think you are confusing audiology and electronics. "Interference" can mean different things in different contexts. They aren't talking about the mixing of sine waves.


> Also, they told us that the headphones that we bought that should be used for some audio treatment (how that works is beyond me), should be a specific model due to the length of the cable to the headphones (sigh)

That's rather bs of course. Did you explain the difference in the speed of light and the speed of sound? The travel time in the wire is around a million times faster than the sound from the headphone to the ear.

I am a little skeptical about the test, if they really report the right numbers and since the other baloney I would like to reproduce the test myself

I have good headphones in my home lab, good signal generator, so I could try to reproduce the test

I have a suspecion that they just put the dots to show there is a problem, even though there might not be (maybe I am overly skeptical)

Anyone ever done this, and heard about this BPTA test?

No, but there may be some validity. Remember, this is not just physics and it's not just frequency response either. Hearing is complex and mostly a phenomenon of the brain.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

>Afterwards we had a consultation in which the responsible person >told us that the speech recognition was caused by differences in >the amplitude between the left and right ear, which caused >interference. But AFAIK only phase difference can create >interference

Tell that person about my beachfront property in Belin, New Mexico. While you are at it ask them how come people who are totally deaf in one ear can understand.

Also, phase difference, take and reverse one of the speaker polarities on your stereo. Is it hard to understand ?
I know many people find it irritating but they can understand it.

About the test, she has a pretty unusual frequency response. I would fix the frequency response first, and it is not like normal, I wonder if they might have to customize something. In one ear she has 10dB boost at 8KHz, I am not sure the means to attenuate that it not even in normal hearing aids.

Over on the audio crazies group people have been know to not bat an eyelash paying six grand an ear for ones that actually sound good. Hope it doesn't cost that much.

 

On Tuesday, 13 August 2019 19:35:51 UTC+2, klaus.k...@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, 13 August 2019 18:21:53 UTC+2, Rick C wrote:
On Tuesday, August 13, 2019 at 8:27:12 AM UTC-4, klaus.k...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi

My daughter at 10 years old has some challenges in hearing a message from the teacher in a noise environment (could just be that she just don't want to listen)

Anyway, we found a clinic doing binaural pure tone audiometry test (BPTA) and optical tests, since the suspicion is that she has a hearing disorder that muddles up sound in her head

So we paid 300 USD and they conducted a test:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5z9otpweiew5civ/Hearing%20Test_08_2019.pdf?dl=0

The hearing test is on page 1 and is a binaural pure tone audiometry test:

https://www.dizziness-and-balance.com/testing/hearing/audiogram.html

Afterwards we had a consultation in which the responsible person told us that the speech recognition was caused by differences in the amplitude between the left and right ear, which caused interference. But AFAIK only phase difference can create interference

Lol! I think you are confusing audiology and electronics. "Interference" can mean different things in different contexts. They aren't talking about the mixing of sine waves.



Correct, can just mean a "disturbance", difficult to locate the sound or center located

Also, they told us that the headphones that we bought that should be used for some audio treatment (how that works is beyond me), should be a specific model due to the length of the cable to the headphones (sigh)

That's rather bs of course. Did you explain the difference in the speed of light and the speed of sound? The travel time in the wire is around a million times faster than the sound from the headphone to the ear.

I didn't go there, since I tried to contain myself


I am a little skeptical about the test, if they really report the right numbers and since the other baloney I would like to reproduce the test myself

I have good headphones in my home lab, good signal generator, so I could try to reproduce the test

I have a suspecion that they just put the dots to show there is a problem, even though there might not be (maybe I am overly skeptical)

Anyone ever done this, and heard about this BPTA test?

No, but there may be some validity. Remember, this is not just physics and it's not just frequency response either. Hearing is complex and mostly a phenomenon of the brain.


Yes, and that is true. We will likely proceed even if some mistakes has been made in what they tell us, and how they measure. Odds are that their treatment may help

I just wanted to let them know the mistakes, so they do not do it again. Problem for me is that if the let out BS like the cable length, how can they be trusted in other areas where I have no clue to know if they are right or wrong?

Oh, and the sound test is done regularly at 200 USD per pop, so if I can do something simelar at my lab, I can remove that cost at least

 

On Tuesday, 13 August 2019 18:21:53 UTC+2, Rick C wrote:

On Tuesday, August 13, 2019 at 8:27:12 AM UTC-4, klaus.k...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi

My daughter at 10 years old has some challenges in hearing a message from the teacher in a noise environment (could just be that she just don't want to listen)

Anyway, we found a clinic doing binaural pure tone audiometry test (BPTA) and optical tests, since the suspicion is that she has a hearing disorder that muddles up sound in her head

So we paid 300 USD and they conducted a test:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5z9otpweiew5civ/Hearing%20Test_08_2019.pdf?dl=0

The hearing test is on page 1 and is a binaural pure tone audiometry test:

https://www.dizziness-and-balance.com/testing/hearing/audiogram.html

Afterwards we had a consultation in which the responsible person told us that the speech recognition was caused by differences in the amplitude between the left and right ear, which caused interference. But AFAIK only phase difference can create interference

Lol! I think you are confusing audiology and electronics. "Interference" can mean different things in different contexts. They aren't talking about the mixing of sine waves.

Correct, can just mean a "disturbance", difficult to locate the sound or center located

Also, they told us that the headphones that we bought that should be used for some audio treatment (how that works is beyond me), should be a specific model due to the length of the cable to the headphones (sigh)

That's rather bs of course. Did you explain the difference in the speed of light and the speed of sound? The travel time in the wire is around a million times faster than the sound from the headphone to the ear.

I didn't go there, since I tried to contain myself

I am a little skeptical about the test, if they really report the right numbers and since the other baloney I would like to reproduce the test myself

I have good headphones in my home lab, good signal generator, so I could try to reproduce the test

I have a suspecion that they just put the dots to show there is a problem, even though there might not be (maybe I am overly skeptical)

Anyone ever done this, and heard about this BPTA test?

No, but there may be some validity. Remember, this is not just physics and it's not just frequency response either. Hearing is complex and mostly a phenomenon of the brain.

Yes, and that is true. We will likely proceed even if some mistakes has been made in what they tell us, and how they measure. Odds are that their treatment may help

I just wanted to let them know the mistakes, so they do not do it again. Problem for me is that if the let out BS like the cable length, how can they be trusted in other areas where I have no clue to know if they are right or wrong?

Cheers

Klaus

 

On Tuesday, 13 August 2019 17:52:40 UTC+2, jurb...@gmail.com wrote:

Afterwards we had a consultation in which the responsible person >told us that the speech recognition was caused by differences in >the amplitude between the left and right ear, which caused >interference. But AFAIK only phase difference can create >interference

Tell that person about my beachfront property in Belin, New Mexico. While you are at it ask them how come people who are totally deaf in one ear can understand.

Also, phase difference, take and reverse one of the speaker polarities on your stereo. Is it hard to understand ?
I know many people find it irritating but they can understand it.

About the test, she has a pretty unusual frequency response. I would fix the frequency response first, and it is not like normal, I wonder if they might have to customize something. In one ear she has 10dB boost at 8KHz, I am not sure the means to attenuate that it not even in normal hearing aids.

One thing to consider also is the human factor. If my daughter makes a mistake or somehow misses a step, it's 5dB, since they find the level with a 5dB step size

Cheers

Klaus

 

[John Larkin]

On Tue, 13 Aug 2019 05:27:07 -0700 (PDT), klaus.kragelund@gmail.com
wrote:

Hi

My daughter at 10 years old has some challenges in hearing a message from the teacher in a noise environment (could just be that she just don't want to listen)

Anyway, we found a clinic doing binaural pure tone audiometry test (BPTA) and optical tests, since the suspicion is that she has a hearing disorder that muddles up sound in her head

So we paid 300 USD and they conducted a test:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5z9otpweiew5civ/Hearing%20Test_08_2019.pdf?dl=0

The hearing test is on page 1 and is a binaural pure tone audiometry test:

https://www.dizziness-and-balance.com/testing/hearing/audiogram.html

Afterwards we had a consultation in which the responsible person told us that the speech recognition was caused by differences in the amplitude between the left and right ear, which caused interference. But AFAIK only phase difference can create interference

Also, they told us that the headphones that we bought that should be used for some audio treatment (how that works is beyond me), should be a specific model due to the length of the cable to the headphones (sigh)

I am a little skeptical about the test, if they really report the right numbers and since the other baloney I would like to reproduce the test myself

I have good headphones in my home lab, good signal generator, so I could try to reproduce the test

I have a suspecion that they just put the dots to show there is a problem, even though there might not be (maybe I am overly skeptical)

Anyone ever done this, and heard about this BPTA test?

Thanks

Klaus

My wife is a speech pathologist; I'll ask her.

I have the same "problem", the inability to separate sounds, the lack
of "cocktail party" ability. Mine's not a hearing problem, it's a
signal processing thing that can't be fixed. It's not a big deal.

She might actually have a problem in one ear, which would certainly
make it harder to separate sound sources.

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Tue, 13 Aug 2019 11:35:19 -0700) it happened John Larkin
<jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
<3d06le583il6snkr2ugfnttn2k735buv9h@4ax.com>:

My wife is a speech pathologist; I'll ask her.

I have the same "problem", the inability to separate sounds, the lack
of "cocktail party" ability. Mine's not a hearing problem, it's a
signal processing thing that can't be fixed. It's not a big deal.

She might actually have a problem in one ear, which would certainly
make it harder to separate sound sources.

From my experience, and I think a lot is misunderstood about speech and how we process it, it works like this:

Everybody has brain wave frequencies (some for sleep some for awake etc)
Every sound you make, EVERY sound you make,
either by saying something, tapping on the table, moving around, or playing an instrument
is in some way phase locked to your brain wave pattern,

To decode we do the reverse: the brain does PLL from the higher frequency components
decoded in the ear down, to re-construct the source (speaking person's) brain wave pattern (synchronization).
If the 'sender' is chaotic then reconstruction is very hard and may fail.
Decoding = Understanding becomes hard.


If the receiver PLL has a problem and cannot lock reconstruction will fail.

I can still hear things I should not be able to hear,
for example I can hear if my 44 kHz ultrasonic anti fouling system is on.
Sort of a whistle,..
This sort of whistle that most people ignore tells me
even how many people are around moving (I hear a tone for every one).
Great intruder detection in the wild,.
It is based on the alien problem, per person you only need 3 ticks,
The ratio holds the base frequency of the other ones brain waves,

This is translated in the brain to a frequency at the extreme high end (where I do perceive it)
And for example the 44 kHz I can still detect with wax ear plugs, so is mostly detected
via skull I think, same for very low frequency vibrations.

No f*ck what everybody else think they know
this works for me.
Science will figure it out one of those days, maybe already has, maybe it is kept secret,
you are more transparent than you can ever imagine.

So a noisy teacher (brain pattern) makes listing and learning very very difficult.

<eh>

Frequency characteristic is of very little importance for understanding I think,
as long as some basic audio band (remember 300 to 3000 Hz phone works great) is present.

For direction you need 2 ears, but direction is not essential for understanding.
We just had lightning storms coming over and I changed from wired headphones to a bluetooth wireless one ear set
and watched a long documentary about what was it .. OK volcanos and deserts...
One ear no problem understanding it in German (not my native language) speaker very clear,
plenty of crap noise, thunder, silly music track, barking dogs, what have you.
To tune in to some person in a crowd is simply PLL to their brain waves.
not so much a direction issue.

OK my Usenet blob for today.

 

[Rick C]

On Tuesday, August 13, 2019 at 3:39:20 PM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:

On a sunny day (Tue, 13 Aug 2019 11:35:19 -0700) it happened John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
3d06le583il6snkr2ugfnttn2k735buv9h@4ax.com>:

My wife is a speech pathologist; I'll ask her.

I have the same "problem", the inability to separate sounds, the lack
of "cocktail party" ability. Mine's not a hearing problem, it's a
signal processing thing that can't be fixed. It's not a big deal.

She might actually have a problem in one ear, which would certainly
make it harder to separate sound sources.


From my experience, and I think a lot is misunderstood about speech and how we process it, it works like this:

Everybody has brain wave frequencies (some for sleep some for awake etc)
Every sound you make, EVERY sound you make,
either by saying something, tapping on the table, moving around, or playing an instrument
is in some way phase locked to your brain wave pattern,

To decode we do the reverse: the brain does PLL from the higher frequency components
decoded in the ear down, to re-construct the source (speaking person's) brain wave pattern (synchronization).
If the 'sender' is chaotic then reconstruction is very hard and may fail.
Decoding = Understanding becomes hard.


If the receiver PLL has a problem and cannot lock reconstruction will fail.

I can still hear things I should not be able to hear,
for example I can hear if my 44 kHz ultrasonic anti fouling system is on.
Sort of a whistle,..
This sort of whistle that most people ignore tells me
even how many people are around moving (I hear a tone for every one).
Great intruder detection in the wild,.
It is based on the alien problem, per person you only need 3 ticks,
The ratio holds the base frequency of the other ones brain waves,

This is translated in the brain to a frequency at the extreme high end (where I do perceive it)
And for example the 44 kHz I can still detect with wax ear plugs, so is mostly detected
via skull I think, same for very low frequency vibrations.

No f*ck what everybody else think they know
this works for me.
Science will figure it out one of those days, maybe already has, maybe it is kept secret,
you are more transparent than you can ever imagine.

So a noisy teacher (brain pattern) makes listing and learning very very difficult.

Wow! I don't think I've heard so much BS since I listened to someone talk about homeopathic medicine.

What do you think, too many drugs? Not enough drugs?

Maybe it is kept secret. It would have been better that way. Too bad he shared.

--

Rick C.

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