OT: How life came to Earth...

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
news:2pan0htbn41nj86ncsfr9jh9bmu3tb9tum@4ax.com:

People. Designer. Not soup.

Dahmer Gezpacho?
 
On 13/02/22 03:56, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 00:44:26 +0000, Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 13/02/22 00:29, David Brown wrote:
On 11/02/2022 21:36, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 19:46:05 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

On 2022-02-11 14:12, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 06:54:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

How life came to Earth ?

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/02/220210125828.htm
quantum tunneling?

The problem of life isn\'t coming up with small molecular building
blocks, it\'s the astoundingly complex mechanism by which DNA works in
a cell and reproduces itself. It\'s not so much a chemistry problem as
a programming problem.


It\'s astoundingly complex now, yes, but it can\'t have been in the beginning.

It had to be. DNA style reproduction is incredibly recursively
complex. Nobody has explained how that self-defining complexity could
have happened from a puddle of primordial soup. Lots of biologists
have calculated the probability as indistingishable from impossible.

Until someone does show how it could have happened, without
intelligent intervention, robots from outer space, or some master
designer, are as legit a theory as spontaneous generation.


This is all just the \"watchmaker argument\", wrapped up in
pseudo-scientific nonsense about alien robots and quantum mechanics.

Just so.

I\'ve previously pointed John to \"The Blind Watchmaker\", and
he indicated he would read it.

There is no indication that he has read it - or if he has,
then he hasn\'t understood it.

I read some of it. It\'s a lot of repetition. And a lot of hand waving.

I can see how someone skimming it might come to that conclusion.

The repetition is mostly variations on a theme, so repetition
is to be expected.

The handwaving is because it is conveying subtle arguments
to the traditional intelligent man on the street, who is
not an expert in the subject. As such it has no alternative
but to \"tell stories\" that summarise the understanding that
has been gained in the past century.

If you want something with more facts, read his \"The Ancestor\'s
Tale\". That starts at man, and traces the evolutionary steps
back to the archaea. Every chapter has something interesting,
but there\'s no way it could be read sequentially!
 
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
news:kebn0hd47qajbq8kak8t92grg4mah4nfp8@4ax.com:

Is there evidence for that?

Yes, did you spend your entire education with blinders on?
 
On Saturday, February 12, 2022 at 11:56:03 PM UTC-8, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Sat, 12 Feb 2022 16:16:59 -0800 (PST)) it happened whit3rd
whi...@gmail.com> wrote in
69a7cfcf-5b4f-467f...@googlegroups.com>:
Yeah, THAT\'s why we know science isn\'t social; the social pressure
to conform effectively doesn\'t exist in the sciences.
That is - and has been - probably not always the case.

Depends what you call \'science\'
The sun orbiting the earth had a lot of mathematicians create \'epicycles\'
to describe the motion of the planets [grin a bit like string theory these days I\'d think]
until that dogma (earth at center was no longer believed - how many died on fires set by the church
being accused of witchcraft etc..]
It is ALL about social pressure and religious fanaticism.

The power of the medieval church isn\'t \'science\', but is a kind
of social pressure. Science didn\'t order those actions, wasn\'t the social
operator, but the church did, and was.
 
Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in news:suge5t$pbl$2
@dont-email.me:

On 15/02/22 14:07, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
Face it: most people let their emotions whiplash their thinking.

I think that is what the psychologists term \"projection\".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

I perform multiple rail bank shots and do the math instantaneously
with no numbers. I just \"see\" the shot angles.

Then I pondered just how we can hit that specific spot on a ball
with another ball carrying the right spin to do a shot so precisely.

Then I saw Ronnie O\'Sullivan shoot tiny snooker balls on a 12 foot
table with astounding precision. He is better than Efren Reyes IMO.
Just WOW!

Then I remembered seeing Howard Cosell way back in the \'70s talking
with Meadowlark Lemon at half court with his back to the hoop, and he
tosses the ball over his shoulder for a swish shot.

I have sinced dubbed the capacity for someone to drum up their
muscle memory and experience \'expertise\' as \"The Harlem Globe Trotter
Effect\".

Do it long enough and you get good at it... real good.

I can shoot without even touching the table. But still I got
nothing on Reyes or Ronnie O. Or many others for that matter.
But I am pretty good.
 
On 13/02/2022 01:41, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:
David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote in news:su9jdj$sfr$1@dont-
email.me:

Nobody thinks the first lifeforms on earth were DNA-based.


Huh?

Bacteria was first, up to 3.22 billion years ago.

It may have started as RNA based, but very early on in their
existence everything was DNA based.

That would mean that the first lifeforms were RNA-based, not DNA-based -
as I said.

We will never know if there was
RNA \"originals\".

https://www.britannica.com/science/bacteria/Evolution-of-bacteria

Bacteria - as we know them today - were not first. The current theories
of abiogenesis see RNA (or something related) as the first nucleic
acids, since RNA strings and parts can be easily formed and replicated
by relatively simple chemical processes (given the right environment).
DNA requires more complex processes - it almost certainly evolved from
RNA beginnings.

It may be that the step from RNA to DNA happened quite quickly (in
evolutionary terms), and that the DNA-based lifeforms outcompeted
RNA-based lifeforms. The only RNA-based organisms we know of at the
moment are some types of virus, which are not \"alive\", but which may
have a history stretching back to the earliest lifeforms or
partially-alive \"things\". (Maybe we\'ll find other RNA-based lifeforms
hidden away somewhere.)
 
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
news:6ain0hhtrj269j98spv695e8kj3po28urd@4ax.com:

Big factories abandoned steam as soon as they could get electricity.
Steam doesn\'t distribute well.

Idiot. That electricity was generated by steam.
 
On 11/02/2022 22:40, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 11/02/22 18:35, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2022-02-11 19:12, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 11/02/22 17:02, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 16:42:33 +0000, Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 11/02/22 15:39, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 14:25:07 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Fri, 11 Feb 2022 05:12:01 -0800) it happened
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in

It could have been designed by some intelligence that had a less
complex, more incremental evolutionary path. Something that evolved
billions of years before earth formed.

If you believe in evolution, you will give that a fair consideration.

OK.
0.1s interval
Jan has already addressed that, you\'ve ignored it or not
understood it, viz:
     \'who or what designed it, and who or what designed that...\'

If you believe in spontaneous generation and evolution, you might
consider that life should have evolved in billions of places in the
universe, billions of years ago.

Give that another 100 milliseconds of thought before you dismiss it.

“Two possibilities exist: either we are alone in the Universe
or we are not. Both are equally terrifying.” ― Arthur C. Clarke

My personal belief is that intelligent life has evolved many
times, but we haven\'t yet communicated with other examples.

I think that life as in self replicating chemical elements that convert
sunlight or chemical energy into useful work to allow them to grow and
reproduce may well be fairly common in the universe. It would be nice to
find another example in our own solar system (or even in the deep oceans
on Earth) that had evolved with different chemistry to our own.

Until we have at least one other example we are guessing. OTOH life got
going PDQ once the Earth had cooled enough for water to remain liquid.

There are still some controversial observations of things in sandstone
that might or might not be organic life much smaller than bacteria and
suspiciously like the things seen in the Martian meteorite sample. eg

http://minsocam.org/MSA/ammin/toc/Articles_Free/1998/Uwins_p1541-1550_98.pdf

Complex multicellular life may be much rarer than life itself. Taking la
definition of life as some sort of photochemical coloured slime that
lives by harvesting sunlight from its nearest star (or chemical energy).
Extremophiles like snottites on Earth live happily in some sulphurous
caves without sunlight relying entirely on chemical energy.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/caves/extremophiles.html

Many people have indeed given that serious consideration,
famously Enrico Fermi\'s name and fellow physicists Edward Teller,
Herbert York and Emil Konopinski - back in 1950. FFI, see the
inconclusive musings about \"The Fermi Paradox\".

I think intelligent life is unstable. By the time it has become
sufficiently powerful to communicate or travel over cosmic distances,
it also has become powerful enough to blow itself into oblivion,
and will, after a short while (on cosmic timescales).

They will probably be non-thermal radio bright for a century or so
before they blow themselves up with thermonuclear weapons (or worse) if
we are any guide. We have probably been visible to radio telescopes
since over the horizon radar, VHF radio and terrestrial TV. Our signals
will be much harder to decode now we have gone digital - the analogue
ones practically shout their frame rate at anyone who sees it.

Once we go to optical fibre we will effectively go radio dark again.

Arecibo was pretty good at standing out when it was operating. Anything
in the beam when they were doing TDR imaging off near Earth Asteroids
would know about it if they had similar radio telescopes to us.

That\'s one of the factors in the Drake equation. People
will continue to argue/refine the parameters - sometimes
through careful thought/experiment, sometimes through
prejudice.

Unless and until we find some other life elsewhere it will be
speculation but some people are much better at it than others.

RNA world looks like a compelling model to me since RNA structures can
both store information (if a little unreliably) and behave as catalysts.
Most of the required ingredients have been seen in interstellar space.

Invoking a deity to avoid the question is the sole preserve of the
feeble minded. They are still left with \"who created The Creator?\".

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
 
On 2022-02-15 14:43, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 09:51:29 +0000, Martin Brown
\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

On 13/02/2022 17:31, David Brown wrote:
On 13/02/2022 17:51, Martin Brown wrote:

You can haggle about whether or not they are truly alive because they
need to hijack a cell to replicate (at least all the ones I know of do).

There are some viruses that are so simple that they can\'t hijack a
cell\'s replication systems - they hijack another virus\'s hijacking! In
a sense, they are small viruses that infect other large viruses. Fun stuff.

And little fleas have lesser fleas upon their backs to bite \'em.

Eventually in a quantised world they get too small to be viable.

Viral phages that attack bacteria are also quite interesting and some of
them may yet have therapeutic value. Progress in this field is slow but
steady as the various pieces are found and understood.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-01880-6

The viruses that we see today have co-evolved with their hosts for many
billions of years. The earliest ones would have been much much simpler.

Is there evidence for that?

Are you denying evolution???

Jeroen Belleman
 
On 12/02/22 17:03, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> I speculate precisely because I don\'t understand it.

Speculation based on knowledge and understanding is valuable.

Speculation based on ignorance is lazy and time wasting.
 
On a sunny day (Sun, 13 Feb 2022 02:53:37 -0800 (PST)) it happened whit3rd
<whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote in
<bdeb49d4-6146-4b3c-8ef2-067445bb5744n@googlegroups.com>:

On Saturday, February 12, 2022 at 11:56:03 PM UTC-8, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Sat, 12 Feb 2022 16:16:59 -0800 (PST)) it happened whit3rd
whi...@gmail.com> wrote in
69a7cfcf-5b4f-467f...@googlegroups.com>:
Yeah, THAT\'s why we know science isn\'t social; the social pressure
to conform effectively doesn\'t exist in the sciences.
That is - and has been - probably not always the case.

Depends what you call \'science\'
The sun orbiting the earth had a lot of mathematicians create \'epicycles\'
to describe the motion of the planets [grin a bit like string theory these days I\'d think]
until that dogma (earth at center was no longer believed - how many died on fires set by the church
being accused of witchcraft etc..]
It is ALL about social pressure and religious fanaticism.

The power of the medieval church isn\'t \'science\', but is a kind
of social pressure. Science didn\'t order those actions, wasn\'t the social
operator, but the church did, and was.

You should see that in the time frame
the mathematicians that were working on the epicycles most certainly
did think of themselves as scientists.
So did the schools in those days that teached it

These days same happens with string theory and endless parroting of \'photon\' and
Einstein\'s math (is only math).
We need to look for a mechanism_ if we want to advance, I suggested one
(not even my idea), but the fact that gravity seems to move at the same speed as light IS a big hint
it is the same particle in my view, and from that a lot of things fall into place.
When those particles are produced in stars or maybe black holes the universe will push itself apart
expand ever faster, internal heating of the planets is then explained too, as is galaxy arms motion,
plus a few other experiments.
Indeed it is when the old guys [peers] die and a new generation embraces new ideas that we advance,
That or we selfdestruct or at least set civilization back for thousands of years with the war mongering US
Military Complex and their brainless puppet Biden and his low IQ supporters.
I Have Spoken
:)
I posted this in the raspi newsgroup last week about fairy tails about \'glowball warming the current fake science\':
About greenhouse gas causing glowball warming:
it is a fake story:
https://old.world-mysteries.com/alignments/mpl_al3b.htm
look up Milankovich cycles on that page, and scroll down to to graphs
showing cold and warm periods.

Look up CO2 levels over the previous millions of years with google,
those were at times much higher, not many humans around back then.
Same Milankovich cycles.

Al Gore\'s fairy tales telling to sell his stuff, an excess of [US] capitalism.
Same way for jabbing everybody over and over again against a virus that is not worse than the flue
and the jabs do not provide immunity -the Medical Industrial Complex.
And there is their Military Industrial Complex trying to make war in Europe in Ukrain.

No radiation is not as dangerous as many are made to think, a plot originating
from \'hide under the table for the nuclear bomb\' media drive.
Wild life at Chernobyl is thriving!

have worked with radiation, still have a live interest
designed and build stuff to measure it:
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/gm_pic/
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/gm_pic2/
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/sc_pic/
and of course there is tri-pic:
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/tri_pic/
that link is old, much more since then.

I measure radiation 24/7 with YES logged by a Raspberry!
And this sits next to me on the table:
http://panteltje.com/pub/gamma_spectrometer_plus_probe_plus_geiger_counter_2_IMG_4185.JPG
there is a PMT with scintillator crystal in that cardboard tube.


Secondly, there\'s not as much uranium still in the ground as a lot of
people think.

Thorium _maybe_ a way out I think China is experimenting with a Thorium reactor.


Thirdly, radioactive waste disposal hasn\'t been properly tackled yet.
There\'s a lot of talk about long term repositories, but the actual
situation is that all the waste is still sitting in cooling ponds, etc
while governments, scared of the cost of proper disposal, do bugger all
about it.

Dump it in the Mariana Trench, lock up the few that start babbling about the deep sea fishes and creatures there
ask them if they eat meat.

Lastly, there are a lot fewer engineering firms who can build and
dismantle nuclear plant than is generally realised, something like six
globally so its very much an open question whether enough generation
capacity can be built in time to make a difference the global warming.

True, same way we wonder: \'How did they build those pyramids?\'


Especially when you consider that the engineers who built all the nuclear
plant of a similar age to that running in the UK at present are now all
retired or dead. About the only type of nuclear plant that\'s readily
available these days are the compact units used to run submarines. Small,
modular, relatively easy to produce, though I get the impression that
refuelling them may be another matter and, anyway, imaging the fuss if
anybody tried to use them to replace the current small natural gas load
balancing plants, which would be the obvious way to use them.

Russia has some ships with small nuclear reactors that they use to power cities on the coast.


Check out http://www.stormsmith.nl/ for a good review of how things
really stand regarding nuclear energy production and its future prospects.

A bunch of green fanatics calling \'mama help\' (or \'God help us\') as the changing climate drives them to other parts of the world
where they, if lucky, cook their food on campfires is a possible scenario.
All that knowledge we had, replaced by rain-dances
Oh wait its already happening in the US.
The black revolution of lower IQ and their facilitator Precedent ByeThen

Just imagine every transport electric and the power grid fails (it often does there)
no emergency vehicles no tools no instruments...
Bringing a generation up with lies and fairy tales is dangerous for the species.
Religious powers in the past, Viking experiment was positive for life on Mars
was denied half an hour later (I remember the announcement).
Those religious leaders do not allow you to know we are just like a speck of dust
in an universe where there are many others and their beliefs, their fairy tales differ.
 
On 13/02/2022 07:55, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Sat, 12 Feb 2022 16:16:59 -0800 (PST)) it happened whit3rd
whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote in
69a7cfcf-5b4f-467f-8535-4fe21c49bc0bn@googlegroups.com>:

Yeah, THAT\'s why we know science isn\'t social; the social pressure
to conform effectively doesn\'t exist in the sciences.

That is - and has been - probably not always the case.

Scientists are always looking for an experiment that demonstrates a
weakness in the prevailing theory of the day, or a better more complete
theory that works in more extreme conditions or makes new testable
predictions. That is pretty much how Nobel prizes are won.

We are living through a golden age of observational astronomy where more
and more wavebands are coming on stream at very high resolution. The
latest will be the Webb telescope once its mirrors are all aligned.

Depends what you call \'science\'
The sun orbiting the earth had a lot of mathematicians create \'epicycles\'
to describe the motion of the planets [grin a bit like string theory these days I\'d think]

Epicycles were the Fourier transform of their day and did allow
astronomers to make useful predictions even if they were wrong in
principle they did work well enough in practice to get results.

Even when they put the sun at the centre which neatly sorted out
retrograde motion they still *needed* epicycles to handle the
eccentricity of orbits until Kepler formulated his famous equations for
elliptical motion.

Even then solving for the true eccentric anomaly accurately and quickly
for a given mean anomaly remains an active research problem even today!

E = M + e*sin E

Looks deceptively simple and going from E to M it is.
Going the other way gets very interesting when M is small and e -> 1.
Mercury is quite a handful with e = 0.25 if you are doing it by hand.

The real time series for planetary positions today are actually a set of
Fourier terms to perturb the basic planetary position form Kepler\'s laws
to take account of all the other planets. It isn\'t really so different.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VSOP_(planets)

Engineering solutions do not need to be completely correct they just
have to be good enough for the task in hand.

No-one applies relativistic corrections to automotive speedometers!

until that dogma (earth at center was no longer believed - how many died on fires set by the church
being accused of witchcraft etc..]
It is ALL about social pressure and religious fanaticism.

Established church tended to be into burning heretics and their books.
New knowledge conflicting with scripture was viewed as very dangerous by
the authorities. US YEC\'s still haven\'t got out of those Dark Ages.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/feb/04/book-burning-harry-potter-twilight-us-pastor-tennessee

There can be some big egos involved in science. Leibnitz and Newton is
one we can look back on from far enough to see that. Poor old Hooke was
practically written out of history by Newton\'s fans after his death.

Hoyle\'s steady state theory was another more recent example. Shot down
in flames when the microwave background and also way too many very
remote active radio galaxies were discovered by the observers. Insanely
bright and very compact engines driving the jets make them hard to
explain without dropping matter down the gravitational plug hole.

I can very well understand J Larkin\'s arguments,
but he lacks knowledge on some of the RNA and DNA science (as do I of course).

He chooses to remain wilfully ignorant.

In todays \'science\' we see strong devotion to ideas from for example Einstein (OneStone in English)
while if you ask \'what is a field other than a mathematical concept?\' things get fishy.

This shows how much more complicated it all is
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/02/220208113945.htm

I like that article very much, my own theories about a Le Sage type particle that is both
carrier of EM radiation and gravity (and does away with Einstein\'s problems) says something similar.
Different state of same thing more fundamental than we have \'shown\' yet.

Le Sage doesn\'t really work, but there is no point in arguing with you
about this since you don\'t actually understand relativity at all. That
seems to be a big failing in many electrical engineering courses.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
 
David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote in news:suarr2$996$1@dont-
email.me:

> Bacteria - as we know them today - were not first.

Had you examined the article, you would know that I already knew that.
 
On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 20:12:49 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

On 2022-02-15 14:43, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 09:51:29 +0000, Martin Brown
\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

On 13/02/2022 17:31, David Brown wrote:
On 13/02/2022 17:51, Martin Brown wrote:

You can haggle about whether or not they are truly alive because they
need to hijack a cell to replicate (at least all the ones I know of do).

There are some viruses that are so simple that they can\'t hijack a
cell\'s replication systems - they hijack another virus\'s hijacking! In
a sense, they are small viruses that infect other large viruses. Fun stuff.

And little fleas have lesser fleas upon their backs to bite \'em.

Eventually in a quantised world they get too small to be viable.

Viral phages that attack bacteria are also quite interesting and some of
them may yet have therapeutic value. Progress in this field is slow but
steady as the various pieces are found and understood.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-01880-6

The viruses that we see today have co-evolved with their hosts for many
billions of years. The earliest ones would have been much much simpler.

Is there evidence for that?

Are you denying evolution???

No, just asking for evidence to support an opinion.

I believe in evolution more than most people.

Jeroen Belleman
--

If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties.
Francis Bacon
 
On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 09:34:11 +0000, Tom Gardner
<spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 13/02/22 03:56, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 00:44:26 +0000, Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 13/02/22 00:29, David Brown wrote:
On 11/02/2022 21:36, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 19:46:05 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

On 2022-02-11 14:12, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 06:54:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

How life came to Earth ?

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/02/220210125828.htm
quantum tunneling?

The problem of life isn\'t coming up with small molecular building
blocks, it\'s the astoundingly complex mechanism by which DNA works in
a cell and reproduces itself. It\'s not so much a chemistry problem as
a programming problem.


It\'s astoundingly complex now, yes, but it can\'t have been in the beginning.

It had to be. DNA style reproduction is incredibly recursively
complex. Nobody has explained how that self-defining complexity could
have happened from a puddle of primordial soup. Lots of biologists
have calculated the probability as indistingishable from impossible.

Until someone does show how it could have happened, without
intelligent intervention, robots from outer space, or some master
designer, are as legit a theory as spontaneous generation.


This is all just the \"watchmaker argument\", wrapped up in
pseudo-scientific nonsense about alien robots and quantum mechanics.

Just so.

I\'ve previously pointed John to \"The Blind Watchmaker\", and
he indicated he would read it.

There is no indication that he has read it - or if he has,
then he hasn\'t understood it.

I read some of it. It\'s a lot of repetition. And a lot of hand waving.

I can see how someone skimming it might come to that conclusion.

The repetition is mostly variations on a theme, so repetition
is to be expected.

The handwaving is because it is conveying subtle arguments
to the traditional intelligent man on the street, who is
not an expert in the subject. As such it has no alternative
but to \"tell stories\" that summarise the understanding that
has been gained in the past century.

If you want something with more facts, read his \"The Ancestor\'s
Tale\". That starts at man, and traces the evolutionary steps
back to the archaea. Every chapter has something interesting,
but there\'s no way it could be read sequentially!

The two big leaps are

Where did this universe come from and why is it so perfectly tuned to
support DNA-based life?

and

How did DNA come about?

Making DNA from primordial soup is as likely as putting a bunch of
parts into a Cuisinart and getting a cell phone.



--

I yam what I yam - Popeye
 
On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 16:25:29 +1100, Clifford Heath
<no.spam@please.net> wrote:

On 13/2/22 2:54 pm, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 01:29:38 +0100, David Brown
david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:

On 11/02/2022 21:36, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 19:46:05 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

On 2022-02-11 14:12, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 06:54:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

How life came to Earth ?

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/02/220210125828.htm
quantum tunneling?

The problem of life isn\'t coming up with small molecular building
blocks, it\'s the astoundingly complex mechanism by which DNA works in
a cell and reproduces itself. It\'s not so much a chemistry problem as
a programming problem.


It\'s astoundingly complex now, yes, but it can\'t have been in the beginning.

It had to be. DNA style reproduction is incredibly recursively
complex. Nobody has explained how that self-defining complexity could
have happened from a puddle of primordial soup. Lots of biologists
have calculated the probability as indistingishable from impossible.

Until someone does show how it could have happened, without
intelligent intervention, robots from outer space, or some master
designer, are as legit a theory as spontaneous generation.


This is all just the \"watchmaker argument\", wrapped up in
pseudo-scientific nonsense about alien robots and quantum mechanics.

Nobody thinks the first lifeforms on earth were DNA-based.


Than someone should find or make a non-DNA life form.

I posted here just a couple of months ago about complex self-replicating
molecules (that self-align to form something very like *cell walls*)
recently found in the edges of geothermal springs. Once a bubble like
this can form a boundary between inside and outside, it can isolate
other processes from the outside world, providing a framework that could
(conceptually) easily evolve into a self-reproducing organism. That
seems to be the most likely way that life got started, to my mind.

Cartoons of living cells aren\'t life.

But it didn\'t fit your mindset so you ignored it, just as you ignore all
the other science that discredits your fantasies. Just as you\'ll
probably ignore it again now, or scoff at it. I\'m not even going to
repost the URL, because you don\'t care. You can find it in my recent
post anyhow.

What people here are ignoring is the information content of a living,
replicating DNA-based cell. They substitute faith.



--

I yam what I yam - Popeye
 
On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 07:19:58 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Sat, 12 Feb 2022 15:19:00 -0800 (PST)) it happened Anthony
William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in
fb8fcd39-787c-4c26-b366-eb511aa8fabcn@googlegroups.com>:

Why evolution didn\'t come up with error-detecting and -correcting codes as well
(or instead) is an even more interesting question.

Actually it did
https://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/dna-replication-and-causes-of-mutation-409/

Cool. It follows that the repair mechanisms distinguish between
uselesss/fatal mutations and potentially useful ones. They must let a
calibrated fraction of potentially useful ones past the checks.





--

I yam what I yam - Popeye
 
On 13/02/22 15:32, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 09:34:11 +0000, Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 13/02/22 03:56, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 00:44:26 +0000, Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 13/02/22 00:29, David Brown wrote:
On 11/02/2022 21:36, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 19:46:05 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

On 2022-02-11 14:12, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 06:54:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

How life came to Earth ?

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/02/220210125828.htm
quantum tunneling?

The problem of life isn\'t coming up with small molecular building
blocks, it\'s the astoundingly complex mechanism by which DNA works in
a cell and reproduces itself. It\'s not so much a chemistry problem as
a programming problem.


It\'s astoundingly complex now, yes, but it can\'t have been in the beginning.

It had to be. DNA style reproduction is incredibly recursively
complex. Nobody has explained how that self-defining complexity could
have happened from a puddle of primordial soup. Lots of biologists
have calculated the probability as indistingishable from impossible.

Until someone does show how it could have happened, without
intelligent intervention, robots from outer space, or some master
designer, are as legit a theory as spontaneous generation.


This is all just the \"watchmaker argument\", wrapped up in
pseudo-scientific nonsense about alien robots and quantum mechanics.

Just so.

I\'ve previously pointed John to \"The Blind Watchmaker\", and
he indicated he would read it.

There is no indication that he has read it - or if he has,
then he hasn\'t understood it.

I read some of it. It\'s a lot of repetition. And a lot of hand waving.

I can see how someone skimming it might come to that conclusion.

The repetition is mostly variations on a theme, so repetition
is to be expected.

The handwaving is because it is conveying subtle arguments
to the traditional intelligent man on the street, who is
not an expert in the subject. As such it has no alternative
but to \"tell stories\" that summarise the understanding that
has been gained in the past century.

If you want something with more facts, read his \"The Ancestor\'s
Tale\". That starts at man, and traces the evolutionary steps
back to the archaea. Every chapter has something interesting,
but there\'s no way it could be read sequentially!

The two big leaps are

Where did this universe come from and why is it so perfectly tuned to
support DNA-based life?

and

How did DNA come about?

Agreed.


Making DNA from primordial soup is as likely as putting a bunch of
parts into a Cuisinart and getting a cell phone.

That\'s unknown.

We know there is a very small number (probability of molecules
banging together) multiplied by a very large number (length of
time, number of planets).

I believe the very large number will turn out to be more
significant than the very small number. You believe the opposite.

Either answer is terrifying, as AC Clarke observed.
 
On 13/02/22 15:36, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 16:25:29 +1100, Clifford Heath
no.spam@please.net> wrote:

On 13/2/22 2:54 pm, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 01:29:38 +0100, David Brown
david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:

On 11/02/2022 21:36, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 19:46:05 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

On 2022-02-11 14:12, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 06:54:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

How life came to Earth ?

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/02/220210125828.htm
quantum tunneling?

The problem of life isn\'t coming up with small molecular building
blocks, it\'s the astoundingly complex mechanism by which DNA works in
a cell and reproduces itself. It\'s not so much a chemistry problem as
a programming problem.


It\'s astoundingly complex now, yes, but it can\'t have been in the beginning.

It had to be. DNA style reproduction is incredibly recursively
complex. Nobody has explained how that self-defining complexity could
have happened from a puddle of primordial soup. Lots of biologists
have calculated the probability as indistingishable from impossible.

Until someone does show how it could have happened, without
intelligent intervention, robots from outer space, or some master
designer, are as legit a theory as spontaneous generation.


This is all just the \"watchmaker argument\", wrapped up in
pseudo-scientific nonsense about alien robots and quantum mechanics.

Nobody thinks the first lifeforms on earth were DNA-based.


Than someone should find or make a non-DNA life form.

I posted here just a couple of months ago about complex self-replicating
molecules (that self-align to form something very like *cell walls*)
recently found in the edges of geothermal springs. Once a bubble like
this can form a boundary between inside and outside, it can isolate
other processes from the outside world, providing a framework that could
(conceptually) easily evolve into a self-reproducing organism. That
seems to be the most likely way that life got started, to my mind.


Cartoons of living cells aren\'t life.


But it didn\'t fit your mindset so you ignored it, just as you ignore all
the other science that discredits your fantasies. Just as you\'ll
probably ignore it again now, or scoff at it. I\'m not even going to
repost the URL, because you don\'t care. You can find it in my recent
post anyhow.

What people here are ignoring is the information content of a living,
replicating DNA-based cell. They substitute faith.

AIUI you substitute faith, albeit of a different kind.
 
On Sat, 12 Feb 2022 20:48:21 -0800 (PST), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Saturday, February 12, 2022 at 7:54:26 PM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 01:29:38 +0100, David Brown
david...@hesbynett.no> wrote:

Nobody thinks the first lifeforms on earth were DNA-based.

Than someone should find or make a non-DNA life form.

Finding modern life forms is easy. Finding ancient ones, which have survived
to modern times, is like looking for last year\'s Xmas cookies.

Usually, someone has eaten those already.

Then someone should make some RNA-based life in a lab.



--

I yam what I yam - Popeye
 

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