Need help INTERPRETING these test results police cruiser SAE

[Clare Snyder]

On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 23:11:16 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
<rogermadd@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 14:46:53 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

In the end, I don't see any indication whatsoever that anyone here knows
how to properly compare the performance of those $157 and $20 brake pads
and shoes in order to make an intelligent buying decision.

That's kind of a sad revelation for this newsgroup, don't you think?

Not at all. Even a "brake engineer" would not be able to tell ypou
how to tell the good fromthe bad (or less good - don't knowthere is
any "bad"brakes on the market - even a lot of the "counterfeit" stuff
will stop the car).

Hi Clare,
You're actually the *only* one on any of these three newsgroups who knew
the bottom line from the start, which is that we're fucked when we try to
compare a $157 brake pad with a $20 brake pad.

Everyone loves a number line, which is why people buy batteries by warranty
or why they say the stupid line that "you get what you pay for" when we all
know that a $300 set of speakers at Toyota gets you a crappy speaker
compared to a $50 set at Crutchfields.

So you can never tell by price. You can only tell by quality.
And there's no way to *compare* quality, it seems.

You knew that. Which is why you stick to name brands. Which is fine, as
name brands is just another way of saying you buy by a number line, where
the number line only has parts on the right and left of zero.

Brands to the right of zero you'd buy (e.g., Napa or Wagner) and brands to
the left you wouldn't buy.

But that sucks too as a determinant although at least with the DOT Edge
Code, we can tell, for sure, which company made the friction material (so
we could tell that an Axxis pad is the same as a PBR which is the same as a
Metal Masters pad, for example).

The "brake engineer" would likely beable to tell
you which of "his" product is better - but not necessarily if his was
betteror worse than another brand.

Yes. That's what the AMECA engineer basically said. He even said, many
times, that the brake engineer might not even know himself, unless he
himself submitted the pad material for testing.

So, basically EVERYONE is buying brake pads completely blind.

If that's not sad to you, it is to me.

Back when I was a Toyota tech and service manager there were at least
2 different formulationsof brake pad that fit numerous Toyota vehicles
of the time - one was used up to a particular production date, and
another after. Both were available as replacement parts, and I always
used the one, regardless of vehicle production date, because it
stopped better and I could install the second and third set without
having to replace rotors. It was a difference between the metal used
in the "semi metallic" lining. One was magnetic - the other had brass
in it.

If you have the DOT Edge Code, we could tell at least who made each
friction material, and whether they're on other pads, and whether they
truly were the same or not, and what the friction coefficients were.

But that's about it for what we could tell about the two pads from just
having them both in our hands.

That's sad.

The brass stopped better and didn't cause pitting of the
rotors. The pads didn't last as long, but virtually nobody ever
actually wore out the "magnetic" ones before the rotors needed
replacing, so the pad life, in and of itself, was a total non-issue.
IIRC the brass was the early pad and the iron was the
replacement/update.

I don't even look at the marketing bullshit because one spec of dust and
they can call it ceramic. There's no law or rules. They can put a spec of
iron and then call it semi metallic.

The only laws are they can't put asbestos in it.

The rest is marketing bullshit. We've been there, so let's not go there
again.

We're essentially choosing brake pads almost completely blind.
And that's sad.

The same situation rose years back on, I believe, FORD brake shoes
where the linings would deteriorate and fall apart before the half
wear point. They went from rivetted to bonded, and then the glue
started letting go, and the entire lining would free-wheel between the
shoes and the drum.

Yes. I'm not covering defects in workmanship or design of the backing.
I'm just covering the friction material here, because friction is the
fundamental thing a brake pad does.

N o, the PRIMARY quality of a brake material that YOU need to worry
about is "performance"
That "performance" includes how well it stops hot and cold, brake
feel, pad life, and rotor life.

The coefficient of friction only affects ONE of those qualities - and
the gross difference between a good e and a poor g is NEGLIGIBLE .
(Both are essentially an F -)

AN OEM GUALITY brake part will be CLOSE to what was specified by the
manufacturer - may be marginally better or marginally worse - but they
will be close.

I talk to my jobber and ask what their warranty experience is with
different products. If they have noise complaints, or poor wear, on
one brand/model but not on another, I stay away from the one that has
problems.

Years ago I got and read the Service Station and Garage Management
magazine - which had articles about different products - written by
mechanics, not engineers and salemen, reporting both the Gems and the
Stinkers.

I know all about the issues that we will never be able to compare pads with
such as longevity of the pads and rotors, fitment, noise, dusting, etc.

Brake materials are a fine line between a science and a "black art"

I agree that for the *formulator*, it's likely halfway between science and
a black art, but for the poor consumer, it's complete marketing bullshit.

Look for a certified label





New vehicles must meet federal performance standards—a minimum
stopping distance in a variety of situations under a specified pedal
effort. Many consumers assume all aftermarket replacement pads will
perform just as well or better than factory parts, but that's not
necessarily the case.

In an effort to improve the customer's comfort level—and also to avoid
future government regulations—brake manufacturers can test and verify
their products under two voluntary certification standards. Both are
designed to ensure that replacement brakes are as effective as
original equipment, and consumers should make sure that any pads being
installed on their vehicle are certified.

The first is an independent proprietary program developed by Greening
Testing Laboratories in Detroit called D3EA—which stands for Dual
Dynamometer Differential Effectiveness Analysis. This procedure tests
front and rear friction materials together on dual dynamometers, then
simulates vehicle weight and speed through a computer program to
measure braking effectiveness and balance for different applications.
D3EA was introduced in 1996, and among the first aftermarket companies
to achieve D3EA certification were ACDelco, NAPA, Raybestos, and
Satisfied.

The Brake Manufacturers Council (BMC) has a second certification
standard called BEEP, or Brake Effectiveness Evaluation Procedure.
BEEP testing is conducted on a single dynamometer, and the numbers are
washed through a computer program to compare brake performance with
federal standards for new vehicles. The BEEP approval seals appear on
packaging as manufacturers submit products for certification.

The D3EA tests are proprietary and more expensive, but they're also
completely independent and tougher to pass. Brake manufacturers have
contended that most consumers change only the front or rear brakes at
one time, so a concurrent dual test is unnecessary. But, according to
officials from Greening, NHTSA tests in the 1980s concluded there was
a significant reduction in braking performance when there was a
differential between front and rear replacement pads as compared with
original factory parts. That report provided some of the motivation
for the brake industry to begin seeking a certification standard
before the federal government issued regulations for replacement pads.
The obvious concern over BEEP testing is that the manufacturers
themselves oversaw the development of the certification standards.
While the program received input from the Society of Automotive
Engineers and actual certification is currently conducted at an
independent laboratory, BMC members can conduct similar tests on their
own single dynamometers and compute the numbers.

Consumers must remember that not all of an aftermarket manufacturer's
lineup gets certified, only pads designed for a specific vehicle that
passed the designated test. Also, since the D3EA tests are expensive,
manufacturers may test just the standard line for a particular
vehicle. One can assume then that any upgraded line from that same
manufacturer will meet the test standards. That's why heavy duty or
the new ceramic pads may not carry the seal. The best advice is to
look for manufacturers that aggressively test their standard line,
then move up in grade if you need more performance or seek other
advantages such as minimal wheel dust.

Nobody, it appears, actually knows anything about buying brake pads when
they have two pads they've never seen before in their hands.

You have the EXPERIENCE to pick a pad, but even if I shoved two pads that
you have never seen before (such as two I'm going to need to compare), you
can't compare them either (unless you know the brand).

Even then, you harp on the conterfeits, so unless you know a telltale sign,
you can't tell from the brand either, especially when buying online.

Which is why I seldom buy stuff like that online - and if I do, I buy
from a vendor I KNOW is honest and reliable. (I'll sometimes order
parts from Napa Onlineand pick them ujp at my local napa store -
particularly if I find I need something on the weekend when the store
is not open and I want it for Monday)

SO it's just sad, sad, sad, that we're all utterly blind when it comes to
comparing brake pads. I think that's very depressing. We're at the mercy of
marketing bullshitters and idiots who do brake pad reviews on amazon that
make no sense and aren't for the same car and compare things like worn old
pads against brand new pads, and the butt dyno takes over from there.

Then pay the extra and buy the Toyota parts - that way YOU KNOW what
you are buying. Sometimes peace of mind costs a few bucks.

All those reviews are basically worthless.
All the marketing bullshit is basically worthless.

Any review by DIY guys on places liike Amazon are generally worse
than useless.

The one dream I had was that this AMECA Edge Code could tell me a lot, and
it does tell me three things, but that's it.

Sigh. It's just sad.

Buy D3EA certified parts and you stand a much higher than normal
chance of getting what you need.

I do thank you for your help, as you're the only one, I think, who knew
what he was talking about from the start. I had to learn it. You already
knew it.

 

[Mad Roger]

On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 17:58:04 -0800 (PST),
tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:

> That's retail.

That's why I say those who say "you get what you pay for" are misguided
because a $157 pad "might" be just as good or bad as a $20 pad, where I can
prove this statement for the $300 20W Panasonic speakers in a Toyota since
I know the specs on the $50 speakers at Crutchfields.

Even at Crutchfields, you can get a good $50 speaker or a less-good $50
speaker, and the price is exactly the same.

So if someone tells me "you get what you pay for", they'll get the same
rant from me that everyone loves to pick products off a number line, but
the real number line is a bunch of specs, and not a simple price.

That's retail for you!

And really the difference is greater, I once bought a set of 4 brake
shoes for +AKM-1, that's under $2. They performed without any issue. Why?

I think price is not an indication of anything other than what the
marketing can make people pay. It's certainly not an indication of quality.

No-one here wants to buy brake parts from scrapyards, even though
they're the same parts you get in the shops.

I'm not sure what you mean by "scrapyards". To me, that means a junk yard,
which contains dead cars. I wouldn't buy brakes off a dead car for a
billion reasons which are obvious so I shouldn't need to state it.

What's the difference between my concept of a junkyard (which contains
entire cars that were thrown away) and your scrapyard?

Are you talking about *used* brake pads or *new* brake pads?

> if both do the job ok, $20 is the intelligent buying decision.

There is no other logical conclusion to be made, given the information we
have. Price is NOT the determinant of a good or bad brake pad.

The sad thing is that there is no determinant we can make that will hold
true other than there is no difference practically that you can do anything
about.

I'm NOT saying they are all the same. I'm saying we consumers can't tell by
having two of them in our hand or having two of them sold online.

Moving to historic vehicles, how would I find out which friction rating
of oak is?

Or rubber in bicycle brakes.

 

[Mad Roger]

On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 23:51:59 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

the PRIMARY quality of a brake material that YOU need to worry
about is "performance"
That "performance" includes how well it stops hot and cold, brake
feel, pad life, and rotor life.

Yes. But.
There's no way to tell that if you have two pads in your hands, and even
less of a way to tell if you're buying two pads online.

Remember, *all* the marketing is complete bullshit (refer back to
Axxis, PBR, and Metal Masters - three differently marketed and priced pads,
all exactly the same - and refer to the fact that there are no laws telling
them that a spec of dust isn't ceramic and that a spec of iron isn't
semimetallic.

The only law that I know of is that they can't call a non-asbestos pad that
if it contains asbestos.

Maybe someone here knows the laws, but that's my sad conclusion so far.

The coefficient of friction only affects ONE of those qualities - and
the gross difference between a good e and a poor g is NEGLIGIBLE .
(Both are essentially an F -)

Yes. You have always been right on that. I don't disagree. I was hoping
beyond hope that there was a way for the consumer to tell pad A from pad B
when they are in the consumer's hands.

But it's not possible. Anyone who *thinks* he can tell, is fooling
himself. So every butt-dyno inspired "review" out there is complete
bullshit (and always was for a huge number of reasons).

Everything is bullshit.
That's what's so sad.

The only thing we know, by looking at a pad, is who made it, what its
friction coefficient is, and whether or not some other pad is made by that
company and whether or not it's exactly the same friction material.

That's it. Everything else we "think" we know, is complete marketing
bullshit.

AN OEM GUALITY brake part will be CLOSE to what was specified by the
manufacturer - may be marginally better or marginally worse - but they
will be close.

Yes. You have always been right, but ... and this is a big butt!

1) If you get OE pads (from the dealer or pads with the exact same DOT Edge
Code), then you get the handling specified by the manufacturer (assuming
your vehicle is essentially the same, e.g., same size tires, same
suspension setup, etc.)

2) Otherwise, if you get somethign that some marketing guy "says" is "OEM
Quality", then you know almost nothing since you have to "ask" what the
fuck "OEM Quality" means to the marketing bullshitter who is telling you
that.

So, if it's actually true that it's OEM Quality, then it's OEM Quality.

But what the fuck does OEM Quality mean when we already know that the
second-order effects are almost as great as the first order effects here.

Does OEM Quality mean that the shoe has the same friction coefficient?
(Let's hope so - but it's *easy* to find an FF pad, so, it has to be more,
right?)

Does OEM Quality mean the shoe lasts as long?
Is as dustless?
Makes as much noise?
Has the same pedal force per deceleration value?
Outgasses the same?
Fades the same?

Who the fuck knows the answer to that question?

The only Occam's Razor logical answer to that question is that OEM Quality
is bullshit unless you *trust* the guy who says it - and even then - he
doesn't know himself - so you'd have to trust the "scientist" who told him
to say that.

I talk to my jobber and ask what their warranty experience is with
different products. If they have noise complaints, or poor wear, on
one brand/model but not on another, I stay away from the one that has
problems.

Yes. I always defer to your greater experience. But I don't have "my
jobber". Heck, you are "my jobber", in effect.

So I understand that if I ask someone who has tons of experience, like you
do, then I can get closer, but even you can't tell me what the difference
is between the $20 pads and the $157 pads unless I dig up all the relevant
information about them, and even then, if your jobber isn't experienced
with them, then I'm back at starting point zero.

So your access to a jobber is great - but I don't have that access.

Years ago I got and read the Service Station and Garage Management
magazine - which had articles about different products - written by
mechanics, not engineers and salemen, reporting both the Gems and the
Stinkers.

Most people think that if you drop a big ball and a small ball, they'll
land at different times. Most people, I think, trust their feelings more
than they trust measurements.

That's why I don't trust butt dyno reports.

People feel their car goes faster if they put in $5/gallon fuel than if
they put in $2/gallon fuel, even if it doesn't. Their reviews are always
written to placate their own preconceived notions.

The *only* review I will trust is a blind review, where the driver doesn't
know anything about the pads, and where that driver didn't write the review
and didn't get paid for writing the review and who doesn't get
advertisement money either.

And that's almost zero reviews.
All those reviews in Car & Driver and Motortrend are bullshit, IMHO.

I realize you're talking a *different* kind of mag, so maybe it's not a rag
like those are, but it's not something I'm going to read unless you know of
a brake comparison that is meaningful.

For example, I hear all the time someone claiming their Cooper tire is
better than my Dunlops or Hancook's, but without the manufacturer's
comprehensive tire test for *all* the tires, we have nothing to go by.

Same here.
Just having one test is useless.
The test has to cover all brake pads we have available to us.

And they just don't.

> Look for a certified label

As someone else said, the certified label is the receipt which has a zip
code, which proves that you bought the pads in the USA.

The only reliable conclusion we can make is that any pad legally sold in
the USA is about the same in performance as far as anyone can tell just by
looking at the pad.

Unless a scientific test has been run, they're all the same is the only
conclusion anyone can make, since any other conclusion (that they're
different) has to be based on bullshit.

That's just sad.

New vehicles must meet federal performance standards+AJc-a minimum
stopping distance in a variety of situations under a specified pedal
effort. Many consumers assume all aftermarket replacement pads will
perform just as well or better than factory parts, but that's not
necessarily the case.

I don't know that new vehicles must meet stopping distance standards but I
don't doubt you as you've been right all along.

However, any pad sold in the US has to also meet standards, and it seems
that any pad works, based on those standards.

I'm not saying that all pads are exactly alike. I definitely think they're
not. I'm just saying that all the information available to us saying they
are not alike, is based on bullshit that isn't backed up by any science
that is available to us.

As the Ameca engineer told me, the guy submitting the material is the only
guy who knows anything about them.

Nobody else does. And even that guy, the Ameca engineer kept telling me,
doesn't know anything about any other material.

In an effort to improve the customer's comfort level+AJc-and also to avoid
future government regulations+AJc-brake manufacturers can test and verify
their products under two voluntary certification standards. Both are
designed to ensure that replacement brakes are as effective as
original equipment, and consumers should make sure that any pads being
installed on their vehicle are certified.

Exactly. I have never been to a mechanic in my entire life, so I don't
really know what *other* people do, but I would *guess* that most people go
to a brake shop like Midas or America's Tire, or the local indy, and they
expect to get brake pads and shoes.

I doubt they ask much about what they got, but if I took a score of cars to
a score of brake shops, I wouldn't be surprised to get more than a dozen
different brands on the vehicle.

Only at the dealer would I expect a specific brand.

Is that a correct assumption? (I have zero experience with mechanics.)

I'll cover the rest separately.
I do appreciate your advice as you have been right all along.
You just happen to have more resources available to you than I have to me.

 

[Mad Roger]

On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 18:05:29 -0800 (PST),
tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:

Sigh. It's just sad.

if they all work ok it's not sad, it's a nonissue

I think you hit the reluctant nail on the head!

The only way this can make sense is if all brake pads work. Period.

Because if people were getting into accidents due to bad brake pads,
someone would step in and stop that (we hope).

Notice even the police report, which is the only scientific study we have,
never said any pad was better or worse - they just required more foot
pounds or fewer foot pounds of pedal force for the same deceleration value.

They never said anything about not being able to decelerate at the desired
deceleration value.

So, I very belatedly am getting the lesson that, in terms of stopping a
typical passenger vehicle, all pads sold are just about the same in terms
of performance.

Another way of saying that is that no matter what the price is, you can't
get a bad pad (nor a good pad). All you get is a pad.

All this assumes that you can't afford to run your own scientific tests,
because the one scientific test we do have, concludes as much anyway in
that there's no way to tell unless you run the test yourself, which you
can't do.

For actual racing, those guys can spend the actual immense time comparing
two different pads, but the consumer is left to realize, as sad as this
conclusion is for me to state, that all consumer-available brake pads are
pretty much exactly the same in terms of stopping ability.

Sigh. It's sad. I didn't want to conclude that. I really didn't. But it is
what the science tells us it is. The rest is just marketing bullshit and
fear mongering from the butt-dynos that think if they paid $157 for a pad,
then it must be better than if they paid $20 for the same pad.

 

[Mad Roger]

On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 17:52:27 -0800 (PST),
tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:

There are presumably 2nd order differences in pad performance,
but we've no idea what they are. EE versus FF is not it seems
the relevant criterion as long as the car can apply enough force
to lock wheels with the pads.
Whether all modern cars can do that with EE or not I also have
no idea. FWIW certainly all historic ones can't.

I agree with you that the primary role of friction material is their
friction, but as the AMECA engineer told me, the way they outgas alone can
have an effect that is huge, as you are also noting.

It would be nice to figure out what these second-order effects are, such as
outgassing as mentioned by the AMECA engineer, as the police cruiser test
already eliminated any second-order effects from a difference in vehicles
since they tested the different pads on the exact same vehicle.

So we can tentatively state that you are 100% correct that second-order
effects (outgassing) apparently are as big as first-order effects
(friction).

The AMECA engineer said that all materials heat up differently, which, he
said, also effects the performance of the pads.

So I think we have two potentially high second-order effects which are
(shockingly) almost as important as the first-order effect of friction
coefficient:
1) outgassing (outgasing sp?)
2) heating
3) ?

What other potentially very high (as high as friction) second-order effects
could we have, when we've eliminated the difference in vehicles and driver?

 

[Terry Schwartz]

Yes we know, it's soooooooo sad......

 

[Clare Snyder]

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 14:19:45 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
<rogermadd@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 17:52:27 -0800 (PST),
tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:

There are presumably 2nd order differences in pad performance,
but we've no idea what they are. EE versus FF is not it seems
the relevant criterion as long as the car can apply enough force
to lock wheels with the pads.
Whether all modern cars can do that with EE or not I also have
no idea. FWIW certainly all historic ones can't.

I agree with you that the primary role of friction material is their
friction, but as the AMECA engineer told me, the way they outgas alone can
have an effect that is huge, as you are also noting.

It would be nice to figure out what these second-order effects are, such as
outgassing as mentioned by the AMECA engineer, as the police cruiser test
already eliminated any second-order effects from a difference in vehicles
since they tested the different pads on the exact same vehicle.

So we can tentatively state that you are 100% correct that second-order
effects (outgassing) apparently are as big as first-order effects
(friction).

The AMECA engineer said that all materials heat up differently, which, he
said, also effects the performance of the pads.

So I think we have two potentially high second-order effects which are
(shockingly) almost as important as the first-order effect of friction
coefficient:
1) outgassing (outgasing sp?)
2) heating
3) ?

What other potentially very high (as high as friction) second-order effects
could we have, when we've eliminated the difference in vehicles and driver?

Pad vibration - which has an effect on gas venting, counterd by the
effect of reduced pad contact

May not be a HUGE difference, but it is possibly a factor. Also heat
CONDUCTANCE - metallic pads conduct more heat to the caliper than
ceramice - making the boiling point of the fluid more critical (if
running metallic or semi-metalic pads you want to be sure to be
running DOT4, not DOT3, and you want it freash and dry) One reason
Chrysler was using composite pistons for several years in the early
no-asbestos days (until they found the pistons swelled and stuck - - -
)

 

[Clare Snyder]

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 14:19:42 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
<rogermadd@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 23:51:59 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

the PRIMARY quality of a brake material that YOU need to worry
about is "performance"
That "performance" includes how well it stops hot and cold, brake
feel, pad life, and rotor life.

Yes. But.
There's no way to tell that if you have two pads in your hands, and even
less of a way to tell if you're buying two pads online.

Remember, *all* the marketing is complete bullshit (refer back to
Axxis, PBR, and Metal Masters - three differently marketed and priced pads,
all exactly the same - and refer to the fact that there are no laws telling
them that a spec of dust isn't ceramic and that a spec of iron isn't
semimetallic.

The only law that I know of is that they can't call a non-asbestos pad that
if it contains asbestos.

Maybe someone here knows the laws, but that's my sad conclusion so far.

The coefficient of friction only affects ONE of those qualities - and
the gross difference between a good e and a poor g is NEGLIGIBLE .
(Both are essentially an F -)

Yes. You have always been right on that. I don't disagree. I was hoping
beyond hope that there was a way for the consumer to tell pad A from pad B
when they are in the consumer's hands.

OK - we've gotten off the subject of brake SHOES - wherer there is a
lot less difference in materials and construction - but with PADS
there are several things you can consider that are NOT "marketing
bullshit"

Metallic pads are more aggressive than ceramics and organics (and they
are harsher on rotors and noisier)
Ceramics last longer and dust less - and stop better than organics,
but are not as effective when cold as metallics.
Ceramics can have small amounts of iron, steel, copper, or brass in
them -as can "organics The tree-huggers in Cali are trying to outlaw
copper bwcause it kills alge etc in runoff water fromthe roads -
leaving us with the more agressive ferrous materials.

You can tell if a ceramic or semi-metallic pad is using ferrous
materials with a magnet.

For rear brake SHOES a good organic material is usually your best bet
- they do not do a lot of the stopping, so generally outlast front
pads by a LARGE margine and unless towing, heavy loads, or extreme
duty they seldom get hot enough to fade much (compared to front brakes
- where droms significantly outperform discs in initial stopping
power, but quickly loose efficiency due to heat.

The MAJOR companies - I'm not talking your second and third tier
"boutique" rmarketers likw those favourite brands of yours - do
SIGNIFICANT reasearch and engineering, often develloping specific
friction materials (and combinations) for different vehicles. The
Wagner thermoquiet formulation on your Ford may be significantly
different than on your Dodge or GM, or Toyota.

You decide which characteristics are impoetant to you - extreme high
speed performance at the expense of life and quiet and dusting, or
silence, long rotor life, and low cost at the expense of high speed
performance and pad life, or good all-round performance, pad life, and
rotor life at a significantly higher cost to decide if you want
semi-metallic, organic, or ceramic pads, then you go to a trusted
reseller of a major brand - wagner, TRW, Akebono, Brakebond, Mintex
rtc and buy their premium (highest quality) set of whichever
technology meets your desires.

I say the "premium" set meaning the one that comes with all the
required clips, shims, pins, etc to do a proper install without having
to source other parts elsewhere or re-use sub-optimal used parts.

But it's not possible. Anyone who *thinks* he can tell, is fooling
himself. So every butt-dyno inspired "review" out there is complete
bullshit (and always was for a huge number of reasons).

Everything is bullshit.
That's what's so sad.

Engineering isn't bullshit. As an "engineer" you should appreciate
that anless you got your degree in a box of crackerjacks.

The SCIENCE is there. (mixed with a bit of black magic - as all
"science" is)

When you buy from Rock Auto, you are USUALLY buying prime product that
came off someone's shelf when they went out of business, or warehouse
overstock, or "open box" product, or product with damaged packaging
due to fading from being on a shelf too long, moisture damage, smoke
damage, etc. When you buy "brand name" from them, you are generally
getting top quality genuine pruduct at pennies on the dollar.

That's why their prices are generally so good (if, unlike here in
Canada, the shipping costs don't totally wipe out the savings in so
many cases)

Taking into account the exchange rate and shipping, I can GENERALLY
buy , say, Wagner, from Napa or Parts Source for VERY close to the
same price as I can buy from Rock.

The only thing we know, by looking at a pad, is who made it, what its
friction coefficient is, and whether or not some other pad is made by that
company and whether or not it's exactly the same friction material.

That's it. Everything else we "think" we know, is complete marketing
bullshit.

No, in your case it is shear paranoia, over a base layer of
ignorance.

AN OEM GUALITY brake part will be CLOSE to what was specified by the
manufacturer - may be marginally better or marginally worse - but they
will be close.

Yes. You have always been right, but ... and this is a big butt!

1) If you get OE pads (from the dealer or pads with the exact same DOT Edge
Code), then you get the handling specified by the manufacturer (assuming
your vehicle is essentially the same, e.g., same size tires, same
suspension setup, etc.)

2) Otherwise, if you get somethign that some marketing guy "says" is "OEM
Quality", then you know almost nothing since you have to "ask" what the
fuck "OEM Quality" means to the marketing bullshitter who is telling you
that.

Fiorget your paranoia about "marketting bullshit" It is BULLSHIT.
Don't get your technical information from know-nothing boy-racers
blogging on the internet, or reviews opn Amazon,or advertizing in
enthusiast magazines. Get your info from "trade magazines" and major
suppliers to the automotive TRADE.

Buy STEAK, not Sizzle. Forget your boutique brand crap. If your
favourite brands were as good as you seem to think they are, they
would have displaced TRW, WAGNER, Akebono, and the other major OEM
SUPPLIERS as the major aftermarket suppliers.

WHo do you think engineers and manufactures the OEM brake material for
Ford, GM, Toyota,Chrysler, etc?

They do NOT design and manufacture the stuff themselves. They have
that done by the likes of Wagner, TRW, Akebone, American Brakebond,
etc. These are the major suppliers to BOTH the OEM and the aftermarket
and OEM REplacement .

For good reason. They have the engineering, and they have the
"critical mass" to be able to produce quality at a reasonable price.

Don't be such a stiubborn paranoid "engineer". YOU will NEVER
understand EVERYTHING about your OWN field of expertise, muchless a
field totally outside your reralm.

Concentrate on becoming the BEST ELECTRICAL ENGINEER you can be and
let the automotive engineers do their job., Along with the materials
engineers, physicists, chemists, and wizards their potions and
perscriptions are working pretty good.

When you start to build specialized race vehicles or highly modified
special purpose vehicles, you go to the engineers with a blank
checquebook and have them come up with the specialized solution you
require - or you go to an "application engineer" and have him pick the
best off-the-shelf solution for your application - at a significantly
lower price point and a much better chance of initial success.

So, if it's actually true that it's OEM Quality, then it's OEM Quality.

But what the fuck does OEM Quality mean when we already know that the
second-order effects are almost as great as the first order effects here.

OEM means BASICALLY THE SAME DESIGN as OEM - so the second and third
order effects are taken intoaccount the same asthe OEM. This can NOT
be done by a "boutique" marketing company that buys their product out
of the discard bucket of some chinese sweatshop, or off the back
loading dock.

ONE of your "favorite brands" - pehaps MetalMaster -whichever one is
charging the highest price, most likely paid some shop in China to
produce their product afterr having paid some qualified enginners to
come up with the specs and formulation - then the unscrupulous
"bastards" in China unloaded a few containerloads out the back door to
some chinese marketing company who sold them to the other 2
manufacturers. - and quite possibly cheapened the product - possibly
even to the initial purchacer - by substituting inferior raw
materials, or cuttin corners on production - to sell it at a better
price to the other companies - without ever changing the stamp on the
material.

I've had dealings with the scoundrels, where my company paid for the
design and tooling for a product, only to have it on the cover of
"asian sources Computer" magazine for half what we were paying for it
before we even got our first containerload.

You deal with Chinese Industry at your peril. If you have FULL CONTROL
you MAY come out unscathed (Full control is a mirage)

Your 3 products MAY be the same. They MAY all be legitimate. They MAY
actually meet the specs stamped on them - but certainly do NOT bet
your life on it.

When I buy Wagner or Akebono aftermarket OEM Replacement parts, etc
from a supplier like NAPA i KNOW what I am getting.

Does OEM Quality mean that the shoe has the same friction coefficient?
(Let's hope so - but it's *easy* to find an FF pad, so, it has to be more,
right?)

Does OEM Quality mean the shoe lasts as long?

OEM Quality means it meets the specifications of the OEM product - in
all the major areas including stopping power/performance, feel, and
life.

Is as dustless?
Makes as much noise?
Has the same pedal force per deceleration value?
Outgasses the same?
Fades the same?

Who the fuck knows the answer to that question?

Certainly you don't, and never will if you don't listen and get
treetment for your paranoia.

The only Occam's Razor logical answer to that question is that OEM Quality
is bullshit unless you *trust* the guy who says it - and even then - he
doesn't know himself - so you'd have to trust the "scientist" who told him
to say that.

Get back on your medications - and if you have never been medicated,
see a professional for dianosis and a perscription as soon as possible

I talk to my jobber and ask what their warranty experience is with
different products. If they have noise complaints, or poor wear, on
one brand/model but not on another, I stay away from the one that has
problems.

Yes. I always defer to your greater experience. But I don't have "my
jobber". Heck, you are "my jobber", in effect.

I have the advantage of being a legitimate tradesman with links to
the automotive oem replacement and afterrmarket locally, and am known
(and respected) by many of them even though I have been actively out
of the trade for over 2 decades - they don't "bullshit" me. If they
try, they find out pretty quickly that it doesn't work.

They can usuallyspot a "poser" pretty quickly.

So I understand that if I ask someone who has tons of experience, like you
do, then I can get closer, but even you can't tell me what the difference
is between the $20 pads and the $157 pads unless I dig up all the relevant
information about them, and even then, if your jobber isn't experienced
with them, then I'm back at starting point zero.

I can tell you your $20 pads are NOT ceramic - almost 100% guaranteed
- and I can tell you the $157 pads arer NOT simple organics - almost
100% guarantee. I can also tell you if you are buying "boutique"
brands you are likely overpaying for whatever it is you are buying.

If I have them in my hand I can give you a pretty good guess as to
how they will stand up, and what affect they will have on your rotors.

You do not have this knowlege, and are very unlikely to ever gain
that knowlege because it comes with experience, along with training
and research in a field in which you have not got the training, and
your level of paranoia precludes you EVER absorbing the knowlege
offered to you.

So your access to a jobber is great - but I don't have that access.

You have access to trade supplies like NAPA. Sadly they will sell to
anyone who darkens their door.

Years ago I got and read the Service Station and Garage Management
magazine - which had articles about different products - written by
mechanics, not engineers and salemen, reporting both the Gems and the
Stinkers.

Most people think that if you drop a big ball and a small ball, they'll
land at different times. Most people, I think, trust their feelings more
than they trust measurements.

And if you are any kind of an engineer you KNOW that you have
oversimplified that last statement
A 10 lb beach ball and a 10lb bowling ball WILL fall at a different
speed in free air. Youdidn't take into account the difference in wind
resistance due to size.

Not only that, a pingpong ball and a baloon will also fall at
different speeds. - and if the balloon is full of hot air or helium it
won't fall at all.

You simplify things way too much on one hand, and complicate them way
to much onthe other.

I'd hate to have you design an electrical control system for me if
your grasp of electrical engineering is as poor as your grasp of
physice and aerodynamics - - -


"There are 10 kinds of people in the world - those who understand
binary logic and those who don't"

That's why I don't trust butt dyno reports.

People feel their car goes faster if they put in $5/gallon fuel than if
they put in $2/gallon fuel, even if it doesn't. Their reviews are always
written to placate their own preconceived notions.

If you spend megabucks on something, and stake your reputation on
being right, then of course everthing you buy MUST work.

I had a brother inlaw who died of cancer because he KNEW the product
he had been selling and using cured cancer - so there was NO WAY his
cancer had come back If he admitted he had cancer again, he had lied
to everyone he peddled the stuff to and his life had been a lie - so
he didn't have cancer - untill it killed him.

The *only* review I will trust is a blind review, where the driver doesn't
know anything about the pads, and where that driver didn't write the review
and didn't get paid for writing the review and who doesn't get
advertisement money either.

Like the double blind study done by Nokian with the automotive press
on their Hakkapelitta snow tires.
Nobody knew which cars had what tires on them during the tests - but
the experienced drivers could tell.

And that's almost zero reviews.
All those reviews in Car & Driver and Motortrend are bullshit, IMHO.

I realize you're talking a *different* kind of mag, so maybe it's not a rag
like those are, but it's not something I'm going to read unless you know of
a brake comparison that is meaningful.

For example, I hear all the time someone claiming their Cooper tire is
better than my Dunlops or Hancook's, but without the manufacturer's
comprehensive tire test for *all* the tires, we have nothing to go by.

Well, I KNOW that some coopers are better than some Duinlops - and
also that some dunlops are better than some Coopers, and a few years
back just about ANYTHING was better than a Hankook. I also know that
Hankook builds and sells some pretty decent tires today. (and like
most manufacturers - some total CRAP.

I also know that many "northamerican brand" tires are now made in
China or Korea, or Thailand or VietNam.

Same here.
Just having one test is useless.
The test has to cover all brake pads we have available to us.

And they just don't.

Look for a certified label

As someone else said, the certified label is the receipt which has a zip
code, which proves that you bought the pads in the USA.

BUllshit. Read the article I posted for you. It is an international
certification program - independent of the manufacturer

The only reliable conclusion we can make is that any pad legally sold in
the USA is about the same in performance as far as anyone can tell just by
looking at the pad.

Unless a scientific test has been run, they're all the same is the only
conclusion anyone can make, since any other conclusion (that they're
different) has to be based on bullshit.

That's just sad.

What is REALLY sad is you are so mired in Bovine Excement and
paranoia that you can't see the forest for the trees.

New vehicles must meet federal performance standards+AJc-a minimum
stopping distance in a variety of situations under a specified pedal
effort. Many consumers assume all aftermarket replacement pads will
perform just as well or better than factory parts, but that's not
necessarily the case.

If you buy QUALITY replacement parts, they will meet or excede those
specs. If you buy boutique crap online you have no assurances at all.

I don't know that new vehicles must meet stopping distance standards but I
don't doubt you as you've been right all along.

However, any pad sold in the US has to also meet standards, and it seems
that any pad works, based on those standards.

There are standards, and there are standards. Any pad legitimately
sold in North America wilkl stop your unloaded $ Runner at legal
speeds under normal conditions. - For a while.

I'm not saying that all pads are exactly alike. I definitely think they're
not. I'm just saying that all the information available to us saying they
are not alike, is based on bullshit that isn't backed up by any science
that is available to us.

Your paranoia and ignorance is showing - BIG TIME.

If I put Wagner Thermoquiet ceramic pads on the front of my vehicle,
and wagner or monroe premium shoes on the rear, with good rotors and
pads (no grooves or glazing) and I properly break them in, I KNOW I
will be stopping well for the next couple of years or 10-20000km with
no issues IF I service the front calipers regularly to be sure the
sliders don't stick - and that's here in the "rust belt" of Central
Ontario.

I also know, from experience, that if I pay 3 times as much for EBC
greenstuff pads from some performace shop for my "Mondeo" as what I
pay for OEM wagners, they don't last any longer or stop any better
than if I put on Wagner Semi Metallics. Been there - done that -
threw away the awful "t" shirt ---

As the Ameca engineer told me, the guy submitting the material is the only
guy who knows anything about them.

Nobody else does. And even that guy, the Ameca engineer kept telling me,
doesn't know anything about any other material.

ANd the guy who submits it may not know squat about it either other
than where he had it made and by who.

In an effort to improve the customer's comfort level+AJc-and also to avoid
future government regulations+AJc-brake manufacturers can test and verify
their products under two voluntary certification standards. Both are
designed to ensure that replacement brakes are as effective as
original equipment, and consumers should make sure that any pads being
installed on their vehicle are certified.

Exactly. I have never been to a mechanic in my entire life, so I don't
really know what *other* people do, but I would *guess* that most people go
to a brake shop like Midas or America's Tire, or the local indy, and they
expect to get brake pads and shoes.

Perhaps three of the WORST places to go - and your " I have never
been to a mechanic in my entire life," speeks volumes - if nothing
else - about your combination of paranoia and ignorance.

I doubt they ask much about what they got, but if I took a score of cars to
a score of brake shops, I wouldn't be surprised to get more than a dozen
different brands on the vehicle.

ANd if you took them to those brake shops, you will have paid more
than necessary and gotten less than you paiud for unless you knewa lot
more than you do.

Only at the dealer would I expect a specific brand.

Is that a correct assumption? (I have zero experience with mechanics.)

Totally wrong. Go to a Napa Autopro garage and you will get product
sold by NAPA - either their own brand or a national brand - either
economy or premium - depending on what you are willing to pay.

The fact you have "no experience with mechanics" and yet you are so
paranoid speeks volumes. A young graduate engineer with no experience
and an inflated opinion of himself and his knowlege in a field for
which he has NO TRAINING. Don't know about where you are, but I had5
years of training before I could call myself a mechanic.
As a teacher of automechanics I had to make sure my students had a
good grasp of elementary physics (levers, ratios,mechanical
advantage,friction and lubrication) and the related maths, as well as
electricity and electronics, plumbing, machining,some thermodynamics,
as well as hoiw to properly select and use the proper tools for a job
and to work safely. And on top of that, I had to teach them about
"auto mechanics".

After becoming a registered. "licenced" mechanic I took courses put on
by the trade suppliers and the oil companies (when I worked at service
stations) and the manufacturers (when I worked for a dealership) to
keep up to the "state of the art" in products, tools, and diagnosis
methods, (troubleshooting) among other things.

I'll cover the rest separately.
I do appreciate your advice as you have been right all along.
You just happen to have more resources available to you than I have to me.

You have all the "resources" available to you that I have, except for
experience and intuation (born from that experience, as well as
specialized training). Nothing I have quoted or provided for you came
from anywhere that is not readilly available to you - at your keyboard
- if you have half a clue where to look and how to find it.


Along with close to 3 decades of working in the automotive trade I
have close to another 3 decades working in information technology
The secret is knowing flyshit from pepper.

Some of that comes from experience. Some of it comes from "inate
intelligence" and "aptitude" which some are born with, and some are
totally devoid of - no matter HOW much education they get.

 

[Clare Snyder]

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 14:19:44 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
<rogermadd@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 18:05:29 -0800 (PST),
tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:

Sigh. It's just sad.

if they all work ok it's not sad, it's a nonissue

I think you hit the reluctant nail on the head!

The only way this can make sense is if all brake pads work. Period.

Because if people were getting into accidents due to bad brake pads,
someone would step in and stop that (we hope).

Notice even the police report, which is the only scientific study we have,
never said any pad was better or worse - they just required more foot
pounds or fewer foot pounds of pedal force for the same deceleration value.

They never said anything about not being able to decelerate at the desired
deceleration value.

The tests were limited - addressing the use a cruiser puts the brakes
to. If you know how to read the information, it tells you a LOT about
the brakes - but you are correct - there is no "best" brake material -
it depends onthe use they are being put to, and what YOU want from
them. There may well , however, be " WORST" brakes.

If brakes require higher pedal pressure to stop in a longer distance
(and decellerate at a lower rate) both when cold and at normal
temperature, and fade significantly on the second and third
application - they are pretty crappy brakes.

If they require low pedal pressure to decellerate quickly to a stop in
a short distance when both cold and at normaltemperatures, AND do not
fade appreciably on the second and third (panic) stop - they are
pretty darn good brakes - anlness they squeal like a stuck pig, only
last for a month of driving, and/or destroy brake rotors - and/or coat
the wheels with nasty corrosive brake dust - - -

So, I very belatedly am getting the lesson that, in terms of stopping a
typical passenger vehicle, all pads sold are just about the same in terms
of performance.

No, not at all - you are TOTALLY missing the point.
The different brake PAD materials are mission specific.
A ceramic pad will outstop a economy organic pad when hot - hands
down. Every time.
A metallic pad will usually stop better after several panic stops, or
when towing a heavy trailer down a longhill - than either the organic
or the ceramic. Both the semi metallic and the organic will stop
better on a cold stop than a ceramic.

Another way of saying that is that no matter what the price is, you can't
get a bad pad (nor a good pad). All you get is a pad.

No. a $85 Thermoquiet Ceramic will stop better than a $20 no-name
organic pad - and you can be pretty well assured you will not get a
$20 ceramic pad unless Rock Auto has something on clearout.

Price is not a sure predictor of quality - but can be a pretty darn
good indicator.

Also, a high iron semi metallic WILL wear out your rotors faster than
either the organic or the ceramic unless the organic causes the rotor
to blister because of uneven pad material transfer, and abuse.

What you TOTALLY do NOT understand is how disc brakes, in particular,
work - and how the co-efficient of friction changes.

When you "bed in" pads, you are burnishiung a thin coating of pad
material into the finish of the rotor.. The stopping power of the
brake depends on the co-efficient of friction between this burnished
in friction material and the pad - not between the pad and bare metal.
How this coating is applied, and maintained, dictated the braking
charachteristics of a disc brake as much as anything. If you stop hard
and fast and keep your foot onthe pedal at a stop untill the brake
cooles,there will be a heavier deposit on the rotor at that point -
UNLESS the padmaterial deposited on the rotor does not adhere properly
and it pulls away with the pad. Either way you will end up with uneven
braking - either a "thump" or a "skip" on the next brake application.

A "quality": pad will transfer evenly and bond reliably to the rotor
during the perscribed "bed-in" and will not cause uneven transfer
under "normal" driving conditions. It will also not cause or promote
corrosion between that pad mnaterial and the rotor steel (which causes
"scabbies" and pitted rotors (often mistaken for the less common, but
sometimes "real" "warped rotor".

Inferior brake friction material performs more poorly in these ways
than premium materials.

A worn, glazed, or grooved rotor will not "bed in" reliably because
the surface will heat and cool unevenly - with uneven pressure across
the brake surface -

So brake friction material quality AND the installation affect brake
performance.

Also, the brake mounting hardware - the shims and springs either
provided with the new pads, purchased separately, or salvaged from the
prior installation (whether OEM or aftermarket or totally missing)
alsohave effects on the performance (and life) of the brakes. Heat
transfer, Vibration, and freedon to move in the caliper, are all
effected by the quality and presence of the proper mounting hardware -
which is designed/modified by the pad manufacturer to matvch the
characteristics and requirements of their particular pad and friction
material - which is why "premium"brake kits are supplied with the
proper hardware to install the brakes for their best performance.

All this assumes that you can't afford to run your own scientific tests,
because the one scientific test we do have, concludes as much anyway in
that there's no way to tell unless you run the test yourself, which you
can't do.

More paranoid bullshit.

For actual racing, those guys can spend the actual immense time comparing
two different pads, but the consumer is left to realize, as sad as this
conclusion is for me to state, that all consumer-available brake pads are
pretty much exactly the same in terms of stopping ability.

Total bullshit. The friction rating doesn't tell you much, but the
difference in required pedal pressure, and the difference in stopping
distance - notto mention the difference in pad temperature between the
best and worst in the test is VERY significant.
What is NOT significant is the predictabiklity of the results based
on the frictionrating of the pads under test. (almost totally useless)

Sigh. It's sad. I didn't want to conclude that. I really didn't. But it is
what the science tells us it is. The rest is just marketing bullshit and
fear mongering from the butt-dynos that think if they paid $157 for a pad,
then it must be better than if they paid $20 for the same pad.

WRONG.
And do your friend a favour and send them to a REAL mechanic to have
their brake work done. I fear you are DANGEROUS.

 

[Clare Snyder]

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 14:19:40 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
<rogermadd@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 17:58:04 -0800 (PST),
tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:

That's retail.

That's why I say those who say "you get what you pay for" are misguided
because a $157 pad "might" be just as good or bad as a $20 pad, where I can
prove this statement for the $300 20W Panasonic speakers in a Toyota since
I know the specs on the $50 speakers at Crutchfields.

You still have not learned ANYTHING?????

The specs on speakers are known to be some of the best fiction ever
written, followed only by the specs on consumer stereo equipment.

Even at Crutchfields, you can get a good $50 speaker or a less-good $50
speaker, and the price is exactly the same.

So if someone tells me "you get what you pay for", they'll get the same
rant from me that everyone loves to pick products off a number line, but
the real number line is a bunch of specs, and not a simple price.

You "only" get what you pay for - and then only if you are both lucky
and astute. You SELDOM get more than what you pay for

You can take THAT to the bank.

That's retail for you!

And really the difference is greater, I once bought a set of 4 brake
shoes for +AKM-1, that's under $2. They performed without any issue. Why?

Because someone was unloading something they didn't need, at a price
to get it off their shelves - and your requirements were not severe
enough to require anything better.

I've also been "lucky" enough to pick up some real "bargoons" by
being at the right place at the right time. I often buy what no-one
wants any more - nobody inOntario wanted a 1972 Pontiac Firenza in
1974 or 1975 - so I gor an almost pristine Vauxhaul Viva HC Magnum
coupe for $75 - and it served me well for a number of years before I
sold it to a friend of my wife, who needed a car and had no money for
something "good" - and she drove it another 7 years untill it required
a part that was not readily available or available at a decent cost .

I got "more than my money's worth" - I got "more than I paid for".

The same with my current pickup truck which I bought for $1500 because
nobody wanted a meticulously maintained 16 year old ford Ranger with
over 300,000km on it. It's been virtually trouble free for 6 years -
I've spent about $1500 on repairs over more than 50,000km, and all
indications areI'll get a few more years out of it. I got more than
my money's worth.

In both cases It was because I new the "value" of what I was buying
better than both the seller and other potential buyers.

You are FAR more likely to get less than you paid for - particularly
when buying any commodity new at retail - where you are SIGNIFICANTLY
less likely to get more than you pay for.

Price is not an accurate predictor of quality, but with a few other
often obvious clues, it is a pretty reliable indicator.

I think price is not an indication of anything other than what the
marketing can make people pay. It's certainly not an indication of quality.

It is, as I have stated, an indicator, but not a predictor or
guarantee of quality.

No-one here wants to buy brake parts from scrapyards, even though
they're the same parts you get in the shops.

No they are not - and in MANY places it is illegal to sell used brake
parts and used exhaust/emission parts.

I'm not sure what you mean by "scrapyards". To me, that means a junk yard,
which contains dead cars. I wouldn't buy brakes off a dead car for a
billion reasons which are obvious so I shouldn't need to state it.

Sometimes a car ends up in a scrapyard with lots of brand new parts
on it. The owner puts $3000 into making it safe to drive - new brakes,
suspension,and tires - the either has it hit, or blows a motor or
transmission, and decides not to keep it and repair it - or they spend
all kinds of money fixing it up - making it into their ":boy racer's
wet dream" and then cannot get it to pass smog - and it ends up in the
scrapyard with LOTS of good and/or expensive parts on it.

That said - as a matter of principal - unless no other adequate
source of brake parts was available, I'd be looking elsewhere - first.
Have I used "used" brake parts in the past??
Yes. I put a complete used rear axle from a '63 Belvedere into my '53
Coronet - brakes and all - as an upgrade when the originals failed and
OEM parts were not readilly available, and the old design was less
than optimal.
ANd I put used parts on my '49 VW in Livingstone Zambia. Where was I
going to get new parts??????? On a Sunday afternoon half way between
Choima and Macha - (look it up on Google Earth - and keep in mind
this was 44 years ago - - - - .

What's the difference between my concept of a junkyard (which contains
entire cars that were thrown away) and your scrapyard?

Are you talking about *used* brake pads or *new* brake pads?

if both do the job ok, $20 is the intelligent buying decision.

Not necessarilly.

There is no other logical conclusion to be made, given the information we
have. Price is NOT the determinant of a good or bad brake pad.

Perhaps not of a good one, but quite often of an inferior one

The sad thing is that there is no determinant we can make that will hold
true other than there is no difference practically that you can do anything
about.

again, bushels of bovine excrement.

I'm NOT saying they are all the same. I'm saying we consumers can't tell by
having two of them in our hand or having two of them sold online.

And why do you, like so many "millenials" (I'm aking an assumption
here from significant evidence) INSIST on buying everything
on-line????

Moving to historic vehicles, how would I find out which friction rating
of oak is?

Obviously not sufficientfor a 3 ton vehicle going 100MPH - and
definitely not as good after a long downhill stop - -- but likely, at
low speeds - al ot better than you suspect!!!

Or rubber in bicycle brakes.

There is SIGNIFICANT difference between different compounds of
"rubber" pads for rim brakes - includingin their stopping power and
their destructive effect on rims - some better for chromed rims, and
others for Alloy rims - some working better for side-pull, and others
for center pull (different amounts of pressure available)

 

[Clare Snyder]

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 15:34:13 -0500, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca>
wrote:

>see http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1687814016647300 for an extensive explanation of friction materials from an engineering pwerspective - the english isn't particularly good but LOTS of information

 

[Clare Snyder]

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 15:34:13 -0500, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca>
wrote:

More of "all you ever wanted to know about friction materials" but
were afraid to ask - - -

http://www.sae.org/events/bce/tutorial-bahadur.pdf

and

http://www.tomorrowstechnician.com/understanding-friction-and-formulations/

and

http://www.mdpi.com/2075-4442/4/1/5/htm

and

http://www.marathonbrake.com/products/varied-application/ub/

and

https://info.ornl.gov/sites/publications/Files/Pub57043.pdf

and

a whole lot more!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Clare Snyder]

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 16:09:47 -0500, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca>
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 15:34:13 -0500, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca
wrote:

see http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1687814016647300 for an extensive explanation of friction materials from an engineering pwerspective - the english isn't particularly good but LOTS of information

And here is some more real good information on brake pad materials -
on a lower level - for the non-engineers out there.

 

Clare Snyder posted for all of us...

May not be a HUGE difference, but it is possibly a factor. Also heat
CONDUCTANCE - metallic pads conduct more heat to the caliper than
ceramice - making the boiling point of the fluid more critical (if
running metallic or semi-metalic pads you want to be sure to be
running DOT4, not DOT3, and you want it freash and dry) One reason
Chrysler was using composite pistons for several years in the early
no-asbestos days (until they found the pistons swelled and stuck - - -
)
They used to be a bitch to get out.

To Madman: When I was early in emergency services I used to run my private
vehicle. I had to pay attention to braking because after 3 stops there were
NO brakes. I got the police shoes because I was all into it. What a
difference! When I got a pursuit certified vehicle it was wonderful. They
are designed and built to endure punishment. Try and go to the dealer and
get the model, good luck with that. Watch what happens on one of the police
shows. See which car is destroyed or smoking at the end. The actors can't
make the corner because they got no brakes. Or the engine expires. Something
is to be said when one goes from 0 to 40 then 40 to 0 repeatedly and sit
there idling for the next 1/2 hour then going to the next call. Then there
were the ambulances and fire trucks. *Training*


--
Tekkie

 

On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 18:01:07 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:

On Sunday, 14 January 2018 18:20:35 UTC, Mad Roger wrote:
On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 01:27:58 -0800 (PST),
tabbypurr wrote:

The real question who in the hell fucking cares??

I didn't, until I found the brake pads fitted by a quick nationwide chain a year earlier were totally disintegrating.

Funny thing is you can get the same brake pads at a scrapyard for a fraction the price, but no-one wants to.

It's a valid question of who cares about choosing the proper brake pads.

Bear in mind that the Toyota FF pads are $157 a set at the local
dealership, while at a local parts store, I can get FF pads for $20 a set.

C = Up to 0.15u
E = 0.15u to 0.25u
E = 0.25u to 0.35u
F = 0.35u to 0.45u
G = 0.45u to 0.55u
H = 0.55u to 0.65u
Z = Unclassified

That's a huge difference in price, for material that has the same friction
coefficient, if not quality, don't you think?

That's retail. And really the difference is greater, I once bought a set of 4 brake shoes for Ł1, that's under $2. They performed without any issue. Why? No-one here wants to buy brake parts from scrapyards, even though they're the same parts you get in the shops.


In the end, I don't see any indication whatsoever that anyone here knows
how to properly compare the performance of those $157 and $20 brake pads
and shoes in order to make an intelligent buying decision.

if both do the job ok, $20 is the intelligent buying decision.


That's kind of a sad revelation for this newsgroup, don't you think?

No, it's an electronics newsgroup.


Moving to historic vehicles, how would I find out which friction rating oak is?


NT

I dunno about oak but I do know that pine doesn't last long. The cable
cars in San Fransisco use long pieces of pine under the cars as
brakes. These are pressed onto the rack and are replaced every two to
three days. The cars have two other braking systems as well. Good
planning for a hilly city. Years ago I made some oak wear blocks for
passenger jets. I think they were for the Boeing 737. These large
blocks took two guys to place onto the mill table for machining. They
were attached to the underside of the tail end of the aircraft. During
testing the pilot made the tail strike the tarmac during take-off. I
guess it's better to scrape off some oak than it is to scrape off the
airplane skin.
Eric

 

[Mad Roger]

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 15:02:37 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

The tests were limited - addressing the use a cruiser puts the brakes
to. If you know how to read the information, it tells you a LOT about
the brakes - but you are correct - there is no "best" brake material -
it depends onthe use they are being put to, and what YOU want from
them. There may well , however, be " WORST" brakes.

Exactly. You've been right all along while I was hoping beyond hope that
there is an intelligent way to select a good/better/best brake pad.

You were right. I was wrong.

If you have two pads in your hands, or two on the net, you can't make an
intelligent choice between them, other than to know if they're the same or
not, and to know who made them, and to know what their cold and hot
friction coefficients are.

That's it.

Each pad can be different - but you have no way of knowing that from the
pad itself.

If brakes require higher pedal pressure to stop in a longer distance
(and decellerate at a lower rate) both when cold and at normal
temperature, and fade significantly on the second and third
application - they are pretty crappy brakes.

Nobody complained about fade in that one report we have, did they?
I don't think we have any better "fade" test than the Chase value for hot
friction (which was E or F depending on the pads tested).

So, while fade is important - it's a useless criteria since we have no way
of knowing the fade.

It's just silly to bring up all the things that *can* happen if you have no
way of choosing between them when the pads are in your very hands.

I don't disagree with you that two pads can be vastly different, but you
have no way of knowing anything other than their tested friction, their
manufacturer, and whether two pads are exactly the same material.

That's all you've got since brands are almost meaningless (e.g., PBR, Axxis
and Metalmasters are the same company) and semi-metallic/metalic/ceramic
marketing is even more meaningless.

If they require low pedal pressure to decellerate quickly to a stop in
a short distance when both cold and at normaltemperatures, AND do not
fade appreciably on the second and third (panic) stop - they are
pretty darn good brakes - anlness they squeal like a stuck pig, only
last for a month of driving, and/or destroy brake rotors - and/or coat
the wheels with nasty corrosive brake dust - - -

All well and good, but it's like predicting that a baby will become the
president of the United States.

No, not at all - you are TOTALLY missing the point.
The different brake PAD materials are mission specific.
A ceramic pad will outstop a economy organic pad when hot - hands
down. Every time.

Let's just agree to disagree since you don't seem to realize what I know
from talking to the Axxis marketing guy that the word 'ceramic' is a
bullshit marketing term.

Do you think I don't call these marketing guys up?
Do I seem like someone who doesn't ask pointed questions?

Ceramic is complete and total marketing bullshit.
The marketing guy told me himself.

(Yes, I see the difficulty of position that puts me in.)

A metallic pad will usually stop better after several panic stops, or
when towing a heavy trailer down a longhill - than either the organic
or the ceramic. Both the semi metallic and the organic will stop
better on a cold stop than a ceramic.

Let's agree to disagree.
You believe in marketing.
I don't.

I believe in specifications.

No. a $85 Thermoquiet Ceramic will stop better than a $20 no-name
organic pad - and you can be pretty well assured you will not get a
$20 ceramic pad unless Rock Auto has something on clearout.

Let's agree to disagree.

You think price has some impact on performance.
I will prove to you that I can show exact same products with different
branding but the exact same price.

Everyone loves a number-line decision, whether it's good/better/best of
metallic/semi-metallic/ceramic or $10/$20/$30 or 3-year/4-year-/5-year
warranty, but none of that indicates a better or worse object.

Only specifications do, and we just don't know much about the spec other
than who made the pad, the code for the exact formulation, and the
friction.

Everything else is bullshit.

Price is not a sure predictor of quality - but can be a pretty darn
good indicator.

Price is an indicator of demand only. Demand is influenced by a shitload of
factors. You know that. I know that. Let's not argue it. That's what
Economics 101 was for, and I already took that and passed it.

Also, a high iron semi metallic WILL wear out your rotors faster than
either the organic or the ceramic unless the organic causes the rotor
to blister because of uneven pad material transfer, and abuse.

If you truly know the "hardness", then of course it matters.
But you have no way of knowing the hardness.
Do you?

What you TOTALLY do NOT understand is how disc brakes, in particular,
work - and how the co-efficient of friction changes.

I think I do understand how disc brakes work, but we can discuss what you
think I don't understand.

What I know is that your energy of movement has to be converted into
something else, most notably heat. Lots and lots of heat.

When you "bed in" pads, you are burnishiung a thin coating of pad
material into the finish of the rotor..

Yup. Pad deposition. Something about covalent bonds making and breaking
under the heat of braking, where the breaking of the bonds elicits heat.

It gets complex HOW the heat is generated (it's not just 'friction'), but
the end result is heat. Lots and lots of heat.

The stopping power of the
brake depends on the co-efficient of friction between this burnished
in friction material and the pad - not between the pad and bare metal.

The Ameca engineer already explained the burnished pads that the Michegan
study used where he said it was to get rid of the volatile gases that come
out of the first few heat cycles.

How this coating is applied, and maintained, dictated the braking
charachteristics of a disc brake as much as anything.

Yup. We all know how to property bed our brakes.
I doubt many shops do it though, because it requires a lot of room and a
few very hard almost stops where, if there is traffic, it ain't easy to do.

I'll wager that few, if any, shops properly bed the pads.
But you'd have that experience because I've never been to a mechanic.

If you stop hard
and fast and keep your foot onthe pedal at a stop untill the brake
cooles,there will be a heavier deposit on the rotor at that point -
UNLESS the padmaterial deposited on the rotor does not adhere properly
and it pulls away with the pad. Either way you will end up with uneven
braking - either a "thump" or a "skip" on the next brake application.

NEVER, and I mean NEVER leave your foot on the pedal after a hard stop!
Everyone knows this, so I know you know this.
It's the worst thing you can do, unless you love to have judder every few
thousand miles as that ped deposition collects more pad over time.

I never understood why, but once a pad print, always a pad print.
And it only gets worse.

Unless you re-bed the brakes - which everyone knows - so you're preaching
to the choir on even brake pad deposition techniques.

A "quality": pad will transfer evenly and bond reliably to the rotor
during the perscribed "bed-in" and will not cause uneven transfer
under "normal" driving conditions. It will also not cause or promote
corrosion between that pad mnaterial and the rotor steel (which causes
"scabbies" and pitted rotors (often mistaken for the less common, but
sometimes "real" "warped rotor".

Yes. But. I have no good way of knowing a quality pad from a not quality
pad. So it's moot.

It's like me picking out the best students in a class based on whether they
wear glasses or not.

Total bullshit. The friction rating doesn't tell you much, but the
difference in required pedal pressure, and the difference in stopping
distance - notto mention the difference in pad temperature between the
best and worst in the test is VERY significant.

It's significant in one thing. Pedal pressure.
If pedal pressure is your gig - then it's significant.
If pedal pressure isn't your gig, then it's not significant.

The pedal pressure changed about 100%, from roughly less than ten foot
pounds to less than twenty foot pounds in the lower-speed tests for
example.

What's 10 foot pounds?
Dunno when it's pressing on a pedal, but if that's important, then you have
to buy a police cruiser and put those pads on it - because it doesn't tell
you anything about your car unless it's a police cruiser.

What is NOT significant is the predictabiklity of the results based
on the frictionrating of the pads under test. (almost totally useless)

Yup. We agree. There is no useful data other than the AMECA code and even
that isn't meant for the consumer.

And do your friend a favour and send them to a REAL mechanic to have
their brake work done. I fear you are DANGEROUS.

Knowledge is dangerous.
Logic is dangerous.
Thinking is dangerous.

Having someone else do all that for you, is dangerous.
The mechanic doesn't give a shit about you or your brake pads.

All the mechanic cares about is your money, and getting as much of that as
possible, in the least time possible, so he'll skip steps like you can't
believe.

I'm on car forums where there are complaints galore about mechanics
skipping half the steps in anything because they don't give a shit about
anything but money.

The only way to do it right is to do it yourself, is my motto.

You can disagree (and you almost certainly will), but you can't disagree
that I'm trying to make an intelligent decision on which brake shoes to
buy, and that I probably know them as well as any mechanic who *thinks* he
knows them - but he doesn't - because he can't.

Nobody can but the guy who submitted them for their Chase test.

 

[Mad Roger]

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 17:01:47 -0500,
Tekkie+AK4- wrote:

To Madman: When I was early in emergency services I used to run my private
vehicle. I had to pay attention to braking because after 3 stops there were
NO brakes.

I've never experienced such fade in my life, and I drive a performance car,
where I've driven down many a long hill. I don't know why I have never
experienced brake fade, but I know it exists. I just have never felt it.

But I've never put in less than FF pads either.

That may or may not be related - we can't tell. It's just a datum.

> I got the police shoes because I was all into it.

What's a "police shoe"?

The police report from Michigan tested "regular" shoes only.

> What a difference!

If there was a difference, it's hard to tell because nobody (except the
police in Michigan it seems) tests *new* pads against *new* pads (after
burnishing).

You probably didn't as nobody does.

You probably tested *old* pads against *new* pads, and even if you did test
apples to apples, it's not extensible to "my" car or to anyone else's car.

That's the problem with tiny experiments of a single datapoint.

> When I got a pursuit certified vehicle it was wonderful.

What the heck is a "pursuit certified vehicle"?
I drove an EMT vehicle many times. It drove like a truck.

> They are designed and built to endure punishment.

Like any performance vehicle on the road today?

Try and go to the dealer and
get the model, good luck with that.

Don't even know what it is.
Is it a souped up police cruiser?

Watch what happens on one of the police
shows. See which car is destroyed or smoking at the end.

That's not a good scientific test.

The actors can't
make the corner because they got no brakes. Or the engine expires. Something
is to be said when one goes from 0 to 40 then 40 to 0 repeatedly and sit
there idling for the next 1/2 hour then going to the next call. Then there
were the ambulances and fire trucks. *Training*

I have been trained to drive an ambulance.
Know what they taught me?

a. Defensive driving
b. Noise pollution is bad
c. Laws (nobody is allowed to break the law in that state, not even
ambulances)

I think in some states emergency vehicles *are* allowed to break the law,
but not in that state where I drove the ambulance. Of course, nobody is
going to give you a ticket either, but if you kill someone while breaking
the law, the onus is on you.

 

[Mad Roger]

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 12:23:01 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

Pad vibration - which has an effect on gas venting, counterd by the
effect of reduced pad contact

That makes sense that the outgassing of pad A can be vastly different than
that of pad B, and, in fact, they "burnished" the pads in the police test
to minimize the initial presumed-far-greater effect of that as the
adhesives heated up for the first time and vented gases.

> May not be a HUGE difference, but it is possibly a factor.

Occam's Razor logic tells us that only one of 2 things is happening:
a. There is a huge as-yet-unnamed second-order effect, or,
b. There is a combination that results in a huge second-order effect.

That there is a huge second-order effect (after friction), there can be no
logical doubt.

But what is the 2nd-order effect's cause and can we test for it?

Also heat
CONDUCTANCE - metallic pads conduct more heat to the caliper than
ceramice - making the boiling point of the fluid more critical (if
running metallic or semi-metalic pads you want to be sure to be
running DOT4, not DOT3, and you want it freash and dry).

Two Occam's Razor points on that observation above, which is correct.

1. While this vehicle specs DOT3, I'll put in DOT4 instead.
2. Metal versus semi-metallic versus ceramic is marketing bullshit

I know there are no laws that differentiate between metal, ceramic, and
semi-metallic - as I've personally spoken to the people who make the
Axxis/PBR/Metalmasters pads. They told me it's all bullshit only they said
it far more politely and less succinctly than I just did.

Suffice to repeat that a spec of dust makes a pad ceramic, just as a spec
of iron makes it semi-metallic.

I posit marketing came up with these wonderful good/better/best number-line
decisions for people since people (like Terry Schartz seems to be) want a
simple number line instead of those oh-so-very-complex quality
specifications.

Where's Jeff Liebermann when you need him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Mad Roger]

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 07:54:12 -0800 (PST),
Terry Schwartz wrote:

> Yes we know, it's soooooooo sad......

I get your point, even ensconced inside the sarcasm, so I'll just say it
bluntly that I do realize 99.99% of the people out there do not care that
they're completely unable to intelligently purchase things using a modicum
of logic.

These people all want a "number line" decision, where they can use the
good, better, best by "marketing derived" criteria, such as silly words
like "ceramic" (where one spec of clay makes it a ceramic) and
"semi-metallic" (where one spec of iron makes it metallic).

You're one of those people, most likely (based on Occam's Razor deduction),
and that's fine.

You *think* you're intelligently choosing a brake pad, and that's fine too.

You may even buy by one of the three marketing-induced criteria:
a. If you're cost conscious, you buy the cheapest FF that fits.
b. If you're value conscious, you buy the mid FFs (with a small price bump)
c. If you're status conscious, you buy the high FFs (bigger price jump)

I'm not like you.
I like to *understand* that which I buy.

That's my take on the main difference between you and me base on the one
line you wrote.

I like to make intelligent buying decisions.
You apparently don't care to - and that's fine.

 

[Mad Roger]

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 14:27:23 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

Metallic pads are more aggressive than ceramics and organics (and they
are harsher on rotors and noisier)
Ceramics last longer and dust less - and stop better than organics,
but are not as effective when cold as metallics.
Ceramics can have small amounts of iron, steel, copper, or brass in
them -as can "organics The tree-huggers in Cali are trying to outlaw
copper bwcause it kills alge etc in runoff water fromthe roads -
leaving us with the more agressive ferrous materials.

Except that Axxis marketing told me, personally, that all these words are
marketing bullshit (he used nicer terms than that).

Do you think I don't call these people up when I have their numbers?

You can tell if a ceramic or semi-metallic pad is using ferrous
materials with a magnet.

Hmmmmhmmmhmmm... this is interesting. I like it! If the test works, that's
a nice test. I'm gonna have to bring a magnet with me to the web when I
look them up online!

Seriously though, it's nice if the pad is in your hands. I'll bring a
magnet with me if I end up buying them from the parts store. And I can test
the old shoes and pads when I take them off.

Good idea if it works.
Can others concur it works?

The MAJOR companies - I'm not talking your second and third tier
"boutique" rmarketers likw those favourite brands of yours - do
SIGNIFICANT reasearch and engineering, often develloping specific
friction materials (and combinations) for different vehicles. The
Wagner thermoquiet formulation on your Ford may be significantly
different than on your Dodge or GM, or Toyota.

The Ameca engineer talked about 1st tier but he wouldn't tell me which
companies that is, so I don't know what you know.

He did say that aftermarket makes only a handful of formulations that they
fit to all cars.

You decide which characteristics are impoetant to you - extreme high
speed performance at the expense of life and quiet and dusting, or
silence, long rotor life, and low cost at the expense of high speed
performance and pad life, or good all-round performance, pad life, and
rotor life at a significantly higher cost to decide if you want
semi-metallic, organic, or ceramic pads, then you go to a trusted
reseller of a major brand - wagner, TRW, Akebono, Brakebond, Mintex
rtc and buy their premium (highest quality) set of whichever
technology meets your desires.

That's like saying you decide the characteristics of a wife, and then go
and marry her. It's not extrapolatable with the information you have.

It's just not.

And you seem to buy on a number line, like most people, and that's fine,
for you. I like to buy by specs, and they just don't exist.

SO I'm fucked.

I say the "premium" set meaning the one that comes with all the
required clips, shims, pins, etc to do a proper install without having
to source other parts elsewhere or re-use sub-optimal used parts.

Of course. That's a given that the hardware needed is there, and that it
fits. In the case of the Toyota drums, the only hardware needed for sure is
the U clip which has to be bent. The OE pads come also with circular
retainers.

Engineering isn't bullshit. As an "engineer" you should appreciate
that anless you got your degree in a box of crackerjacks.

You missed what I said, or I didn't say it right.
Specifications are not bullshit.
Marketing spin is bullshit.

The SCIENCE is there. (mixed with a bit of black magic - as all
"science" is).

The science is only in the hands of the formulators.
Nobody else has access to that science.

When you buy from Rock Auto, you are USUALLY buying prime product that
came off someone's shelf when they went out of business, or warehouse
overstock, or "open box" product, or product with damaged packaging
due to fading from being on a shelf too long, moisture damage, smoke
damage, etc. When you buy "brand name" from them, you are generally
getting top quality genuine pruduct at pennies on the dollar.

This is good to know because Rock Auto has really low prices!
They were so low, they scared me. That's how low they were.

No, in your case it is shear paranoia, over a base layer of
ignorance.

I don't have any paranoia. You *think* I do, and that's fine.
But I don't.
I just don't trust marketing as much as you seem to trust them.

WHo do you think engineers and manufactures the OEM brake material for
Ford, GM, Toyota,Chrysler, etc?

That's a good question. The AMECA engineer said only the OEMs spend the
immense time to get the formulation right. So that would say that, if you
like what the OEMs did for you, that you should pay the $157 for OEM FF
shoes and not the $20 for aftermarket FF shoes.

They do NOT design and manufacture the stuff themselves. They have
that done by the likes of Wagner, TRW, Akebone, American Brakebond,
etc. These are the major suppliers to BOTH the OEM and the aftermarket
and OEM REplacement .

In the case of Toyota, it's Nisshinbo Automotive Manufacturing, Inc.

But you bring up a good point, which is what the AMECA engineer said, which
is to buy "regionally" if you don't go OEM.

His algorithm was to buy a brand from the same region as where your OE
shoes were made. If OE is from Germany, then buy a German-built pad. If OE
is Japanese, then buy a Japanese pad.

He didn't explain in detail why, but his point may be the same as yours,
which is that there aren't a whole lotta' manufacturers out there, but
luckily, with the AMECA Edge Code, we know the manufacturer of *every*
brake pad out there, and the code for the specific material.

Don't be such a stiubborn paranoid "engineer". YOU will NEVER
understand EVERYTHING about your OWN field of expertise, muchless a
field totally outside your reralm.

I *hate* not being able to make an intelligent choice based on
specifications. I just hate it.

And, you just can't make an intelligent choice based on specifications for
brake pads because all you really know are who made it, what it's friction
is, and whether the compound is exactly the same as another.

That's not enough to make an intelligent comparison.
And you never will have the capability to test them scientifically.

So we're all blind - although most people don't seem to realize they're
blind.

When I buy Wagner or Akebono aftermarket OEM Replacement parts, etc
from a supplier like NAPA i KNOW what I am getting.

I've had Jurid, Textar, Akebono, and PBR on my car.
They're all the same to me.
The first week they feel vastly differently, then the same forever more.

The first week, we're comparing old pads to new pads, mind you.

And if you are any kind of an engineer you KNOW that you have
oversimplified that last statement
A 10 lb beach ball and a 10lb bowling ball WILL fall at a different
speed in free air. Youdidn't take into account the difference in wind
resistance due to size.

Yes. I know. Everyone knows that. Even non engineers.
But my point is that it wasn't obvious until Gallileo tested it.
So millions of people thought otherwise, because intuitively it seems that
it woudl be the case.

You knew that. A feather and a bowling ball will fall differently, in air,
but the same in a vacuum. We all know that.

My only point there was that intuition is almost always wrong.
Anyone who trust their intuition, is almost always wrong.

Don't even get me started on high-octane claims in commercials.......

There are standards, and there are standards. Any pad legitimately
sold in North America wilkl stop your unloaded $ Runner at legal
speeds under normal conditions. - For a while.

Yup.
That's the only logical conclusion anyone can make using Occam's Razor.