Moulded mains plug failure

[kreed]

On Jan 1, 2:38 pm, "Mr.T" <MrT@home> wrote:

"Franc Zabkar" <fzab...@iinternode.on.net> wrote in message

news:fnaol4prfrrf2pt75emd95df0srjaltfh3@4ax.com...

Presumably US conductors would be twice the diameter, which means that
the I2R losses would be the same.

twice the diameter gives you 4x the conductor cross section surface
area

Actually from what I read some years back, in a USA electrical
installation book a friend brought with him when moving here, many US
domestic installations have a 240v centre tapped supply, 180 out of
phase, IE 2 x 120v "actives" and a "neutral". (240v across the 2
"actives")

If you had the 2 "phases" well balanced, there would be theoretically
no current flowing in the neutral, however in real
life this would rarely, if ever happen

High wattage things like stoves, fixed heaters, air cons etc are run
from the 240v supply
This used the same looking plug as AUS from the photos, but both pins
would be live, and both would be 120v with respect to neutral. There
was no mention of 15, 20, 32a @ 240v sockets, or their pin size and
configuration either.

standard domestic power points would run at 120v.

I cant remember if they bonded the Neutral and Earth together (MEN)
like AUS.

Another thing that has interested me over the years is that whenever I
have seen US 120v sockets, plugs etc they are all rated at "120v, 15A"
which would imply that the maximum wattage would be 1800w not 2400w as
with an Australian power socket. which is 240v 10A.

There is also a 208v 3 phase industrial supply (ie - same basis as our
3 phase system in AUS but half the voltage.).
I don't think this was used in residences.

Maybe one of our US readers could confirm this ?



The other point, from anecdotal evidence, is that the typical US
household uses a shitload more power, in having more powered
appliances, many more lights etc than typically in Australia. However
in recent years, I think you will find that we are catching up .

Given the price of copper, that is a more expensive option though.

MrT.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

kreed wrote:

On Jan 1, 2:38 pm, "Mr.T" <MrT@home> wrote:
"Franc Zabkar" <fzab...@iinternode.on.net> wrote in message

news:fnaol4prfrrf2pt75emd95df0srjaltfh3@4ax.com...

Presumably US conductors would be twice the diameter, which means that
the I2R losses would be the same.


twice the diameter gives you 4x the conductor cross section surface
area

Actually from what I read some years back, in a USA electrical
installation book a friend brought with him when moving here, many US
domestic installations have a 240v centre tapped supply, 180 out of
phase, IE 2 x 120v "actives" and a "neutral". (240v across the 2
"actives")

If you had the 2 "phases" well balanced, there would be theoretically
no current flowing in the neutral, however in real
life this would rarely, if ever happen

High wattage things like stoves, fixed heaters, air cons etc are run
from the 240v supply
This used the same looking plug as AUS from the photos, but both pins
would be live, and both would be 120v with respect to neutral. There
was no mention of 15, 20, 32a @ 240v sockets, or their pin size and
configuration either.

NEMA specifies what connector for each application.
<https://www.hubbellnet.com/max_htm/tech_stuff/NEMA/front.html>

standard domestic power points would run at 120v.

I cant remember if they bonded the Neutral and Earth together (MEN)
like AUS.

Yes, but at the main panel only.

Another thing that has interested me over the years is that whenever I
have seen US 120v sockets, plugs etc they are all rated at "120v, 15A"
which would imply that the maximum wattage would be 1800w not 2400w as
with an Australian power socket. which is 240v 10A.

There is also a 208v 3 phase industrial supply (ie - same basis as our
3 phase system in AUS but half the voltage.).
I don't think this was used in residences.

Maybe one of our US readers could confirm this ?

Some homes have 208 three phase, but it isn't common. I've seen it
where there is an elevator or very large well pump, like for a 8" or
larger well.

The other point, from anecdotal evidence, is that the typical US
household uses a shitload more power, in having more powered
appliances, many more lights etc than typically in Australia. However
in recent years, I think you will find that we are catching up .

Given the price of copper, that is a more expensive option though.

Compared to the total price of building a new house, the copper costs
are still one of the smallest items on the list.


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There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Eeyore wrote:

Franc Zabkar wrote:

Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> put finger to keyboard and
composed:

Franc Zabkar wrote:

AFAIK British mains plugs (not the moulded type) protect the active
wire with a user replaceable fuse. I doubt that your plug is anything
out of the ordinary.

The moulded type also have fuses inserted from the 'bottom face'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bs1363-plug.jpg

However I did once find ONE with no visible fuse. Maybe it was internal and
'one-shot' ?

It's great to have the safest electrical system in the world !

All other things being equal, I would have thought that a 110V system
was safer than a 240V system.

Why ? Both are lethal voltages and 120V as it actually is requires twice the
current carrying capacity with 4x increased I2R losses and hotter conductors
that catch fire more easily.

You ignorance of electrical codes are a s vast as your knowledge of
electronics, in general.

As for mains plugs, the safest ones I've seen are those with an
integral ELCB. Maybe one day they'll be mandatory ???

Give me even ONE example. Aside from British.

<http://www.acehardwaresuperstore.com/cooper-wiring-gfci-grounding-plug-p-16749.html?ref=42>
is one made to replace existing, non GFCI plugs, or to replace a damaged
molded on GFCI plug. As usual, Google will reveal things you deny exist.

<http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&hs=rdB&resnum=1&q=gfci+plug&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=iw>
shows 'Results: about 273,000 for gfci plug'.

It seems to me you know little about electricity. Besides, about 90% of the
world uses 220-240V. As ever it's the USA that's the BACKWARD IDIOT.

Only in your pathetic, America hating, little mind. It is you who
knows nothing about electrical safety.


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There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

 

[Phil Allison]

"kreed"

just my 2c worth - but if there were ever to be a standard for a world
power socket - why not wire homes with the IEC type system like used
on computers and just about everything else these days and even has a
15a version ?


** First you gotta have a world standard for domestic AC voltage and
frequency.

And that just AIN'T gonna happen.

No more than world standard for rail gauge or the use of bits of the VHF
and UHF spectrum.

BTW:

Even now, lotsa gear made for the US and Japanese market has a 3 pin IEC
inlet fitted and one uses an IEC to US mains plug adaptor lead with it -
but no easy way exists to change the 120V rating to 240V.

Causes MASSIVE trouble when the same gear travels outside the US.

Bloody STUPID idea.



...... Phil

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

kreed wrote:

On Jan 5, 2:51 am, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net
wrote:
Eeyore wrote:

Franc Zabkar wrote:

Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com> put finger to keyboard and
composed:

Franc Zabkar wrote:

AFAIK British mains plugs (not the moulded type) protect the active
wire with a user replaceable fuse. I doubt that your plug is anything
out of the ordinary.

The moulded type also have fuses inserted from the 'bottom face'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bs1363-plug.jpg

However I did once find ONE with no visible fuse. Maybe it was internal and
'one-shot' ?

It's great to have the safest electrical system in the world !

All other things being equal, I would have thought that a 110V system
was safer than a 240V system.

Why ? Both are lethal voltages and 120V as it actually is requires twice the
current carrying capacity with 4x increased I2R losses and hotter conductors
that catch fire more easily.

You ignorance of electrical codes are a s vast as your knowledge of
electronics, in general.



As for mains plugs, the safest ones I've seen are those with an
integral ELCB. Maybe one day they'll be mandatory ???

Give me even ONE example. Aside from British.

http://www.acehardwaresuperstore.com/cooper-wiring-gfci-grounding-plu...
is one made to replace existing, non GFCI plugs, or to replace a damaged
molded on GFCI plug. As usual, Google will reveal things you deny exist.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:e...
shows 'Results: about 273,000 for gfci plug'.

It seems to me you know little about electricity. Besides, about 90% of the
world uses 220-240V. As ever it's the USA that's the BACKWARD IDIOT.

Its more likely that way because the US was one of the first with
public electricity distribution.
Its more likely that the reason it was 120v was to

1> No set standards for voltage, current or anything else at the time
- it was all new - what was it supposed to run on ??

2> limitations on the the insulating materials available at the time
(ie, types of rubber compounds that had been developed at the time,
transformer & alternator winding insulation coatings etc.

3> Loads (compared to now) were probably a lot less, therefore the
currents that flowed were not
considered a problem. The relatively high cost of providing
electricity probably helped minimise wastage and excess usage.
(Remember a lot of homes in Australia only had 32A wiring from the
street. One stove with a few elements/ oven on at the same time could
use up nearly all of that now !!)

Some early US electrical installations were a single 120 V 15 amp
circuit to power light bulbs only. Of course that was when electricity
was a new thing to most people.

4> Might have been more difficult to manufacture light bulbs etc that
lasted as long with higher voltages. These - I think would have been
the main original intended use of electricity - lighting.
IIRC they used other materials for filaments before settling on
tungsten, such as carbon and osmium these might not have been suitable
for higher voltages at the desired wattage needed ?

The range of 90 to 120 volts was considered the best for long lamp
life. Just like 12 volt is for automotive use. The planned conversion
to 42 volt systems didn't take this into consideration.

By the time all these things were sorted out, it was probably too late
to change the standard mains voltage, as too many things were using
it ? Those who came later settled on 240v based on observations of
past experiences in the US ?.

part of it is the way that electricity is distributed. A transformer
generally only feeds about four homes. If a home is isolated, it has its
own transformer. This minimizes distribution losses. The only
drawback is that the higher the line frequency, the shorter the
distribution network can be before the lines become radiators,
increasing the losses. That is why long haul HV lines are DC.

Its also possible that the different voltages and frequencies were
chosen to provide "trade barriers" to imported appliances too.

Some of the early power plants were 16 to 20 Hz, to power huge motors
in mining operations. Lights flickered a lot. Some radios were built
for mining towns. the transformers are huge, to cope with the higher
iron losses at lower frequencies. 60 Hz allows for smaller transformers
and motors than in 50 Hz systems. Power supplies need smaller filter
capacitors, and the ripple frequency is higher, as well.

Even now - I think it would be a costly and problematic nightmare to
convert the entire US to a 240v system like here. - even worse if it
had to go to 50 hz as well.

We already use 240 for high current applications. Lighting and wall
outlets are 120 VAC. Everything else is 240.

just my 2c worth - but if there were ever to be a standard for a world
power socket - why not wire homes with the IEC type system like used
on computers and just about everything else these days and even has a
15a version ?

Is there a need for a world wide standard? A lot of things have
detachable cords, and versions are available for any country they are
likely to be used in.

Only in your pathetic, America hating, little mind. It is you who
knows nothing about electrical safety.


I will admit, I didn't know that the US used Earth leakage units (GFI)
though it isn't really a surprise that they do.
They are however, now mandatory in some (if not all) states of
Australia.

We also have arc fault circuit interrupters that monitor the load for
arcing and trip.

<http://ecatalog.squared.com/techlib/displaydocument.cfm?id=48840-122-03&action=view>


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There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

 

[kreed]

On Jan 5, 2:51 am, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net>
wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

Franc Zabkar wrote:

Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com> put finger to keyboard and
composed:

Franc Zabkar wrote:

AFAIK British mains plugs (not the moulded type) protect the active
wire with a user replaceable fuse. I doubt that your plug is anything
out of the ordinary.

The moulded type also have fuses inserted from the 'bottom face'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bs1363-plug.jpg

However I did once find ONE with no visible fuse. Maybe it was internal and
'one-shot' ?

It's great to have the safest electrical system in the world !

All other things being equal, I would have thought that a 110V system
was safer than a 240V system.

Why ? Both are lethal voltages and 120V as it actually is requires twice the
current carrying capacity with 4x  increased I2R losses and hotter conductors
that catch fire more easily.

   You ignorance of electrical codes are a s vast as your knowledge of
electronics, in general.



As for mains plugs, the safest ones I've seen are those with an
integral ELCB. Maybe one day they'll be mandatory ???

Give me even ONE example. Aside from British.

http://www.acehardwaresuperstore.com/cooper-wiring-gfci-grounding-plu...
is one made to replace existing, non GFCI plugs, or to replace a damaged
molded on GFCI plug. As usual, Google will reveal things you deny exist.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:e...
shows 'Results: about 273,000 for gfci plug'.

It seems to me you know little about electricity. Besides, about 90% of the
world uses 220-240V. As ever it's the USA that's the BACKWARD IDIOT.

Its more likely that way because the US was one of the first with

public electricity distribution.
Its more likely that the reason it was 120v was to

1> No set standards for voltage, current or anything else at the time
- it was all new - what was it supposed to run on ??

2> limitations on the the insulating materials available at the time
(ie, types of rubber compounds that had been developed at the time,
transformer & alternator winding insulation coatings etc.

3> Loads (compared to now) were probably a lot less, therefore the
currents that flowed were not
considered a problem. The relatively high cost of providing
electricity probably helped minimise wastage and excess usage.
(Remember a lot of homes in Australia only had 32A wiring from the
street. One stove with a few elements/ oven on at the same time could
use up nearly all of that now !!)

4> Might have been more difficult to manufacture light bulbs etc that
lasted as long with higher voltages. These - I think would have been
the main original intended use of electricity - lighting.
IIRC they used other materials for filaments before settling on
tungsten, such as carbon and osmium these might not have been suitable
for higher voltages at the desired wattage needed ?

By the time all these things were sorted out, it was probably too late
to change the standard mains voltage, as too many things were using
it ? Those who came later settled on 240v based on observations of
past experiences in the US ?.
Its also possible that the different voltages and frequencies were
chosen to provide "trade barriers" to imported appliances too.

Even now - I think it would be a costly and problematic nightmare to
convert the entire US to a 240v system like here. - even worse if it
had to go to 50hz as well.

just my 2c worth - but if there were ever to be a standard for a world
power socket - why not wire homes with the IEC type system like used
on computers and just about everything else these days and even has a
15a version ?

   Only in your pathetic, America hating, little mind.  It is you who
knows nothing about electrical safety.

I will admit, I didn't know that the US used Earth leakage units (GFI)
though it isn't really a surprise that they do.
They are however, now mandatory in some (if not all) states of
Australia.

--http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
listed, or I will not see your messages.

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account:http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm

There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

 

[Allan]

"kreed" <kenreed1999@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dafb7edf-ea4f-4df8-915f-dd427e837eb8@q26g2000prq.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 2, 2:21 pm, Qanset <Qan...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Phil Allison wrote:
"bruce varley"

( snip whole pile of putrid, whining,ridiculous shite )

** Replace the DAMN plug !!!

Wanker.

....... Phil

SO, what if he does'nt want to ????

Go to his local JAYCAR store and buy a new iron for $10.00...

 

[Allan]

"Phil Allison" <philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:6rs2veF3475eU1@mid.individual.net...

"bruce varley"


( snip whole pile of putrid, whining,ridiculous shite )


** Replace the DAMN plug !!!

Wanker.





....... Phil

HERE HERE.....

Is this the first time this guy has found a faulty plug...???
FFS, do as Phil says..