LPG price?

[Damian]

What is the real reason for LPG price to jump from 55c to 90c?!
Is it likely to go back to 55c again?
Doesn't this massive price hike destroy industries and make it worthless to
own an LPG converted vehicle?

 

[Noddy]

On 12/02/14 10:22 PM, Damian wrote:
> What is the real reason for LPG price to jump from 55c to 90c?!

It makes the oil companies lots of money.

> Is it likely to go back to 55c again?

Probably. Or maybe not.

Doesn't this massive price hike destroy industries and make it worthless to
own an LPG converted vehicle?

High prices have killed off the alternative fuels industry before.

As to the value of your vehicle, I don't think it's altered in any way
by the price of lpg.



--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

 

[D Walford]

On 12/02/2014 10:22 PM, Damian wrote:

What is the real reason for LPG price to jump from 55c to 90c?!
Is it likely to go back to 55c again?
Doesn't this massive price hike destroy industries and make it worthless to
own an LPG converted vehicle?

The price goes up same time every year and every year someone complains
about it.
Its due to the demand for LPG in the Northern Hemisphere winter.
Even if LPG was $1.00 per litre that would still mean its about 40-50cpl
cheaper than petrol so still worth converting if you do a lot of kms.

--
Daryl

 

[Damian]

"Noddy" <me@wardengineering.com.au> wrote in message
news:ldfn4c$adr$2@dont-email.me...

On 12/02/14 10:22 PM, Damian wrote:
What is the real reason for LPG price to jump from 55c to 90c?!

It makes the oil companies lots of money.

Is it likely to go back to 55c again?

Probably. Or maybe not.

Doesn't this massive price hike destroy industries and make it worthless
to
own an LPG converted vehicle?

High prices have killed off the alternative fuels industry before.

As to the value of your vehicle, I don't think it's altered in any way by
the price of lpg.

If most certainly has.
LPG converted vehicles do have extra value, specially when it comes to
engines that have been modified to suit
LPG fuel.
If I list my car for sale with added information of fantastic LPG conversion
with being able drive 'cheaply'.
It won't get as much as it would.
In other words, I can't demand extra money for the expensive LPG conversion,
it went through.
It's a hopeless situation.

 

[Damian]

"D Walford" <dwalford@internode.on.net> wrote in message
news:52fb60c3$0$29966$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com...

On 12/02/2014 10:22 PM, Damian wrote:
What is the real reason for LPG price to jump from 55c to 90c?!
Is it likely to go back to 55c again?
Doesn't this massive price hike destroy industries and make it worthless
to
own an LPG converted vehicle?


The price goes up same time every year and every year someone complains
about it.

That a fallacy.
It jumped from 55c to 90c overnight.
Any idiot can see that it is not typical holiday/end of year price hike.
They just cleverly timed it, so the idiots won't feel it as badly.

> Its due to the demand for LPG in the Northern Hemisphere winter.

Nope. That's just a story made up to bullshit us. There's much more going on
with the price jumps.

Even if LPG was $1.00 per litre that would still mean its about 40-50cpl
cheaper than petrol so still worth converting if you do a lot of kms.

Take into account the wear and tear on LPG converted engines, low
kilometers per litre, etc.
I bet you won't be spending thousands on an LPG conversion.
Compare it with the Petrol price and the power you get from Petrol engine.
conventional dual fuel engines produce less power with LPG.
Even EFI ones produce less power per RPM.
If I uderstand it correclty, majority of the LPG cost for the manufacturer
goes into storing it, and also special
means of transportation. Otherwise, it was a waste product.
My point.
It's due to crooked business decisions by major producers.

 

[Rod Speed]

Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote

> What is the real reason for LPG price to jump from 55c to 90c?!

The govt started to tax it.

> Is it likely to go back to 55c again?

Hard to say. We will see some effect of the boom in coal seam gas and
fracking.

> Doesn't this massive price hike destroy industries

No, there are no industries that dependant on the LPG price.

Certainly some operations that are marginal will go bust
but that happens with any change in their circumstances.

> and make it worthless to own an LPG converted vehicle?

No, it is still substantially cheaper than petrol.

 

[Rod Speed]

Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote

Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote

What is the real reason for LPG price to jump from 55c to 90c?!

The govt started to tax it.

Don't you think it's wrong?

Nope. No reason why it should be taxed like petrol is.

> There's a big industry that relies on cheaper LPG prices.

Not a good enough reason to not tax it like petrol is.

There is a MUCH bigger industry that uses petrol and diesel.

Is it likely to go back to 55c again?

Hard to say. We will see some effect of the boom in coal seam gas and
fracking.

It's not easy to produce that gas, without raping the land around it.

Bullshit.

> It's a technology that needs to take carefully.

Nope.

Doesn't this massive price hike destroy industries

No, there are no industries that dependant on the LPG price.

What are you talkin about, man?
Alternative fuel Automotive industry alone relies on LPG price.

It’s a fart in the bath.

Certainly some operations that are marginal will go bust
but that happens with any change in their circumstances

There ain't anything marginal about LPG based industries.

I said OPERATIONS, not industrys.

and make it worthless to own an LPG converted vehicle?

No, it is still substantially cheaper than petrol.

No, it's not.

Corse it is.

The conversion cost, wear and tear on engine, etc, etc makes it
worthless.

Bullshit. The taxis still use it.

 

[Noddy]

On 13/02/14 2:00 PM, Damian wrote:

> Don't you think it's wrong?

Compared to.....

> There's a big industry that relies on cheaper LPG prices.

Such as?

It's not easy to produce that gas, without raping the land around it.
It's a technology that needs to take carefully.

Sorry, but I don't understand what this actually means.

What are you talkin about, man?
Alternative fuel Automotive industry alone relies on LPG price.

The alternative fuel industry is very small, and it will survive as long
as lpg remains cheaper than petrol.

> There ain't anything marginal about LPG based industries.

Again I'm not sure what that means.

No, it's not. The conversion cost, wear and tear on engine, etc, etc makes
it worthless.

You're away with the fairies if you think it's worthless. It's "value"
as an alternative fuel depends on a host of variables, such as the cost
of the conversion, the price of the fuel and the number of miles you travel.

My conversions broke even in a bit over 12 months, and since then
they've been in the black compared to running on petrol.

Even today, it's *still* a cheaper option.



--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

 

[Damian]

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:bm2b6sF4sf2U1@mid.individual.net...

Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote

What is the real reason for LPG price to jump from 55c to 90c?!

The govt started to tax it.

Don't you think it's wrong?
There's a big industry that relies on cheaper LPG prices.

Is it likely to go back to 55c again?

Hard to say. We will see some effect of the boom in coal seam gas and
fracking.

It's not easy to produce that gas, without raping the land around it.
It's a technology that needs to take carefully.

Doesn't this massive price hike destroy industries

No, there are no industries that dependant on the LPG price.

What are you talkin about, man?
Alternative fuel Automotive industry alone relies on LPG price.

Certainly some operations that are marginal will go bust
but that happens with any change in their circumstances

There ain't anything marginal about LPG based industries.

and make it worthless to own an LPG converted vehicle?

No, it is still substantially cheaper than petrol.

No, it's not. The conversion cost, wear and tear on engine, etc, etc makes
it worthless.

 

[Noddy]

On 13/02/14 2:50 AM, Damian wrote:

Nope. That's just a story made up to bullshit us. There's much more going on
with the price jumps.

Hang on a second. You originally *asked* why it was that the price has
jumped, and now you're *telling* everyone why?

Take into account the wear and tear on LPG converted engines, low
kilometers per litre, etc.

The wear rate of lpg engines is considerably less than it is on petrol
engines all else being equal.

> I bet you won't be spending thousands on an LPG conversion.

I can't speak for anyone else, but in the last 6 years I spent 5 grand
on lpg conversions on my own vehicles and I'd happily do so again
tomorrow if I had one that needed it.

The cost of the conversion in isolation isn't the critical factor. It's
how long it'll take you to recover the money and *then* go over onto the
savings side of the equation that is important.

Compare it with the Petrol price and the power you get from Petrol engine.
conventional dual fuel engines produce less power with LPG.
Even EFI ones produce less power per RPM.

Rubbish

Until very recently I had two vehicles fitted with injected vapour lpg
systems. I still have one (with the same Prinns system being used on
both cars) and their performance is/was indistinguishable between gas
and petrol.

I've been using lpg powered vehicles for over 30 years and in that time
I've seen some *appallingly* bad conversions, but in almost every single
case the resulting performance loss was the fault of the installer in
doing a terrible job.

A vehicle fitted with a properly installed and tuned injected system
(either vapour or liquid) would be impossible to detect running on
either fuel.

If I uderstand it correclty, majority of the LPG cost for the manufacturer
goes into storing it, and also special
means of transportation. Otherwise, it was a waste product.

LPG is a by-product of the crude oil refining process, but that's not
it's only source. It also comes from natural gas.

> My point.

I'm sorry, but it's not exactly clear what your point is, other than you
being unhappy with the current price.

> It's due to crooked business decisions by major producers.

Welcome to Capitalism. Enjoy your stay.



--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

 

[Noddy]

On 13/02/14 2:15 AM, Damian wrote:

> If most certainly has.

Really?

Perhaps you could explain how it is that the price of LPG has changed
the value of your vehicle, and unless you were selling it tomorrow why
you would care?

LPG converted vehicles do have extra value, specially when it comes to
engines that have been modified to suit
LPG fuel.

Can't say I've ever noticed it myself. I've never known anyone who
considered lpg on a used car to be anything but a bonus, and I've
certainly never come across anyone who was willing to pay extra for it.

If I list my car for sale with added information of fantastic LPG conversion
with being able drive 'cheaply'.
It won't get as much as it would.
In other words, I can't demand extra money for the expensive LPG conversion,
it went through.

I don't know of a situation were you would be able to demand extra money
for it regardless.

LPG is pone of those mods that is beneficial to some people and hated by
others, but very few people seem to see it as something worth paying
"extra" for.

Check out places like ebay for used lpg kits. They often sell for next
to nothing, and you might be surprised to know just how many people buy
a used car with an lpg kit installed only to take it off and dispose of it.

> It's a hopeless situation.

No offence, but I think you make it out to be *far* worse than what it is.



--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

 

[jonz]

On 2/13/2014 5:39 PM, Rod Speed wrote:

Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote

What is the real reason for LPG price to jump from 55c to 90c?!

The govt started to tax it.

Don't you think it's wrong?

Nope. No reason why it should be taxed like petrol is.

There's a big industry that relies on cheaper LPG prices.

Not a good enough reason to not tax it like petrol is.

There is a MUCH bigger industry that uses petrol and diesel.

Is it likely to go back to 55c again?

Hard to say. We will see some effect of the boom in coal seam gas and
fracking.

It's not easy to produce that gas, without raping the land around it.

Bullshit.

It's a technology that needs to take carefully.

Nope.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Do yerself a favour, and check out the long term result of a short
term gain. (financial) The almighty dollar rules again. capitalism
eh?....aint it wonderful?.

Doesn't this massive price hike destroy industries

No, there are no industries that dependant on the LPG price.

What are you talkin about, man?
Alternative fuel Automotive industry alone relies on LPG price.

It’s a fart in the bath.

Certainly some operations that are marginal will go bust
but that happens with any change in their circumstances

There ain't anything marginal about LPG based industries.

I said OPERATIONS, not industrys.

and make it worthless to own an LPG converted vehicle?

No, it is still substantially cheaper than petrol.

No, it's not.

Corse it is.

The conversion cost, wear and tear on engine, etc, etc makes it
worthless.

Bullshit. The taxis still use it.

--
“Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea- massive,
difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind
boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it”

 

[Rod Speed]

jonz <Dunno@why.i.bother> wrote

Rod Speed wrote
Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote

What is the real reason for LPG price to jump from 55c to 90c?!

The govt started to tax it.

Don't you think it's wrong?

Nope. No reason why it should be taxed like petrol is.

There's a big industry that relies on cheaper LPG prices.

Not a good enough reason to not tax it like petrol is.

There is a MUCH bigger industry that uses petrol and diesel.

Is it likely to go back to 55c again?

Hard to say. We will see some effect of the boom in coal seam gas and
fracking.

It's not easy to produce that gas, without raping the land around it.

Bullshit.

It's a technology that needs to take carefully.

Nope.

Do yerself a favour,

Don’t need to.

> and check out the long term result

That is fine.

> of a short term gain. (financial)

There is a lot more than short term financial gain.

> The almighty dollar rules again. capitalism eh?....aint it wonderful?.

Yep. A decent mix of capitalism and socialism
leaves all the other alternatives for dead.

Doesn't this massive price hike destroy industries

No, there are no industries that dependant on the LPG price.

What are you talkin about, man?
Alternative fuel Automotive industry alone relies on LPG price.

It’s a fart in the bath.

Certainly some operations that are marginal will go bust
but that happens with any change in their circumstances

There ain't anything marginal about LPG based industries.

I said OPERATIONS, not industrys.

and make it worthless to own an LPG converted vehicle?

No, it is still substantially cheaper than petrol.

No, it's not.

Corse it is.

The conversion cost, wear and tear on engine, etc, etc makes it
worthless.

Bullshit. The taxis still use it.

 

[jonz]

On 2/13/2014 7:41 PM, Rod Speed wrote:

jonz <Dunno@why.i.bother> wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote

What is the real reason for LPG price to jump from 55c to 90c?!

The govt started to tax it.

Don't you think it's wrong?

Nope. No reason why it should be taxed like petrol is.

There's a big industry that relies on cheaper LPG prices.

Not a good enough reason to not tax it like petrol is.

There is a MUCH bigger industry that uses petrol and diesel.

Is it likely to go back to 55c again?

Hard to say. We will see some effect of the boom in coal seam gas
and fracking.

It's not easy to produce that gas, without raping the land around it.

Bullshit.

It's a technology that needs to take carefully.

Nope.

Do yerself a favour,

Don’t need to.

and check out the long term result

That is fine.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
What is fine?

of a short term gain. (financial)

There is a lot more than short term financial gain.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yeah? like what>

The almighty dollar rules again. capitalism eh?....aint it wonderful?.

Yep. A decent mix of capitalism and socialism
leaves all the other alternatives for dead.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~``
So, what do have here?.

Doesn't this massive price hike destroy industries

No, there are no industries that dependant on the LPG price.

What are you talkin about, man?
Alternative fuel Automotive industry alone relies on LPG price.

It’s a fart in the bath.

Certainly some operations that are marginal will go bust
but that happens with any change in their circumstances

There ain't anything marginal about LPG based industries.

I said OPERATIONS, not industrys.

and make it worthless to own an LPG converted vehicle?

No, it is still substantially cheaper than petrol.

No, it's not.

Corse it is.

The conversion cost, wear and tear on engine, etc, etc makes it
worthless.

Bullshit. The taxis still use it.

--
“Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea- massive,
difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind
boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it”

 

[Damian]

"Noddy" <me@wardengineering.com.au> wrote in message
news:ldhbfp$q5v$1@dont-email.me...

On 13/02/14 2:15 AM, Damian wrote:

If most certainly has.

Really?

Yes, really.

Perhaps you could explain how it is that the price of LPG has changed the
value of your vehicle, and

Very simple. It cost more to drive. The price hike is 60%+.
No rocket science. Do the simple math.

>unless you were selling it tomorrow why you would care?

I do care, 'cos it costs me extra 35c a litre.
What used to cost me less than $90 a week before, jumped overnight to $150
a week.
That's commuting.
I dont wanna get into the long trips across the country, 'cos perhaps I
shouldn't whinge about it 'cos the
government may not need to pay for your holiday expenditure savings on lpg.

LPG converted vehicles do have extra value, specially when it comes to
engines that have been modified to suit
LPG fuel.

Can't say I've ever noticed it myself. I've never known anyone who
considered lpg on a used car to be anything but a bonus, and I've
certainly never come across anyone who was willing to pay extra for it.

Then you know very little about cars, I afraid, specially duel fuel ones.
There's no golden rule about it.
Some cars do get condemned for having LPG 'cos that car shouldn't have been
on lpg in the first place.
Other cars have higher value due to LPG conversion.
It's all depend on the type of car+quality of LPG conversion.

If I list my car for sale with added information of fantastic LPG
conversion
with being able drive 'cheaply'.
It won't get as much as it would.
In other words, I can't demand extra money for the expensive LPG
conversion,
it went through.

I don't know of a situation were you would be able to demand extra money
for it regardless.

Then you need to do your homework.
Get to know about the large passenger cars and SUVs that are suitable for
LPG conversion.
The ones properly converted always had extra value for private passenger
cars.
The key word is 'suitable'.
You get a Toyota Corolla and stupidly convert it to LPG and expect huge
savings and higher car value,
then you're dreaming.

You do have a point in one sense.
Last fifteen years, the LPG price has been rapidly rising, and that
comparing to the petrol and diesel price as well.
So, proportionately LPG prices has been rising steadily as well.
In anyway, LPG alternative fuel industry is getting killed obviously by the
government and certain lobbysts.
They are closing the LPG conversion subsidy scheme in a few months time.
It's pretty obvious.
LPG as a cheaper, environmentally sound altnerative fuel in cars is becoming
history, unless a future government decide to do things differently
and put the system back again.

LPG is pone of those mods that is beneficial to some people and hated by
others,

Taht 'cos they buy cars stupidly converted to LPG or stupidly convert their
existing cars without doing proper homework.
Then end up spending a fortune on repairs due to LPG fuel use. That being on
top of the savings from driving on LPG.
An installer usually will convert any vehicle you take to them, 'cos it's
lot of money for them.
So, they won't tell you that you car ain't worth LPG conversion

> but very few people seem to see it as something worth paying "extra" for.

Only if you've done your homework before buying a converted one or
converting a one you already have.
Some car motors will get stuffed up by LPG conversion, simply 'cos they are
either unsuitable or the
conversion is done cheaply without modifying the internal engine parts(and
external).

Check out places like ebay for used lpg kits. They often sell for next to
nothing,

Used anything can sell next to nothing on ebay, specially LPG kits.
They aren't safe for average user and most installers won't touch them.
Somebody like me, sometime purchase them for peanuts and discard the bad
bits and keep the good bits to replace the worn out ones.
For example, I replaced my old worn out converter with a used one I bought
off ebay. Installers usually don't like that.
AFAIK, used hoses aren't allowed by law in many states, but there's nothing
can be done about you from replacing old ones with better quality used ones.


Automotive LPG industry needs some restructuring, obviously, not a kill.
Specially installers rorting it by not providing information to the
commuters, about certain cars, that ain't worth lpg conversion.

and you might be surprised to know just how many people buy a used car
with an lpg kit installed only to take it off and dispose of it.

I won't be surprised by many things, 'cos I've been in close contact with
automotive industry for enough long time.
Anybody, who take off a properly converted(factory LPG) LPG system in car
they just bought would be ignorant and silly.
If the person believes it's no good for the motor, they can simply leave it
and drive on petrol(if dual fuel).
But there's no solution if the person is paranoid about lpg explosions and
leaks.
And BTW, removing and lpg system has to be done by a licensed installer.
It's unlikely average Joe would know how to do it safely.

And buying a badly installed lpg converted car is even sillier, 'cos the
damage is done already, in most cases.

It's a hopeless situation.

No offence,

Non taken.

>but I think you make it out to be *far* worse than what it is.

How so? Look at the facts.
The price jumped from 55c(which I was already whinging about) to 90c. That's
60% price leap, happened over night.
You wait and see.
They are closing the subsidy scheme in few months. I ain't making it up.
No private owner would bother to own an LPG car without the subsidy and the
rising LPG price(comparing to petrol and diesel).
For me, my Patrol on LPG is close to useless already.
I'm seriously considering putting on an EFI dongle to improve mileage, even
though I love the good old age carby technology.

 

[Noddy]

On 13/02/14 9:18 PM, Damian wrote:

Very simple. It cost more to drive. The price hike is 60%+.
No rocket science. Do the simple math.

I can understand it changing your running costs, but how does it change
the value of your vehicle?

I do care, 'cos it costs me extra 35c a litre.
What used to cost me less than $90 a week before, jumped overnight to $150
a week.
That's commuting.

The price has jumped for everyone. Not just you.

I dont wanna get into the long trips across the country, 'cos perhaps I
shouldn't whinge about it 'cos the
government may not need to pay for your holiday expenditure savings on lpg.

Not sure I understand what you're on about.

Then you know very little about cars, I afraid, specially duel fuel ones.
There's no golden rule about it.

Is there really?

Some cars do get condemned for having LPG 'cos that car shouldn't have been
on lpg in the first place.
Other cars have higher value due to LPG conversion.
It's all depend on the type of car+quality of LPG conversion.

Can't say I ever noticed it myself, and I'd bet my left one I've seen
more lpg equipped cars that you have pal

> Then you need to do your homework.

My homework is just fine, thanks.

Get to know about the large passenger cars and SUVs that are suitable for
LPG conversion.
The ones properly converted always had extra value for private passenger
cars.
The key word is 'suitable'.
You get a Toyota Corolla and stupidly convert it to LPG and expect huge
savings and higher car value,
then you're dreaming.

Uh-huh.

You do have a point in one sense.
Last fifteen years, the LPG price has been rapidly rising, and that
comparing to the petrol and diesel price as well.
So, proportionately LPG prices has been rising steadily as well.
In anyway, LPG alternative fuel industry is getting killed obviously by the
government and certain lobbysts.
They are closing the LPG conversion subsidy scheme in a few months time.
It's pretty obvious.
LPG as a cheaper, environmentally sound altnerative fuel in cars is becoming
history, unless a future government decide to do things differently
and put the system back again.

It will always be around. As soon as the subsidy drops the cost of your
average conversion will fall by a similar amount.

Just like the cost of conversions *rose* by a similar amount as soon as
the subsidy was implemented

Taht 'cos they buy cars stupidly converted to LPG or stupidly convert their
existing cars without doing proper homework.
Then end up spending a fortune on repairs due to LPG fuel use. That being on
top of the savings from driving on LPG.
An installer usually will convert any vehicle you take to them, 'cos it's
lot of money for them.
So, they won't tell you that you car ain't worth LPG conversion

I don't know where you get this crap from, but any car that runs on
petrol will run equally well on lpg. The only argument is whether or not
a conversion is cost effective, and that can only be answered by the
individual owner.

I've seen Hyundai Excels converted to lpg that were very profitable
ventures, and I've seen Ford Falcons and Holden Commodores that lost money.

Only if you've done your homework before buying a converted one or
converting a one you already have.
Some car motors will get stuffed up by LPG conversion, simply 'cos they are
either unsuitable or the
conversion is done cheaply without modifying the internal engine parts(and
external).

There isn't a car motor built in the last 20 years that isn't suitable
for lpg.

Used anything can sell next to nothing on ebay, specially LPG kits.
They aren't safe for average user and most installers won't touch them.

Rubbish.

Most installers won't touch used kits because (a) they lose their profit
margin in selling you a new kit, and (b) they won't warranty used
equipment they know nothing about (and I wouldn't either).

Somebody like me, sometime purchase them for peanuts and discard the bad
bits and keep the good bits to replace the worn out ones.
For example, I replaced my old worn out converter with a used one I bought
off ebay. Installers usually don't like that.

Why would they? Why would they bother fucking around with a used one
when the most expensive *new* one is a couple hundred bucks of which
they get a slice of the price as profit?

AFAIK, used hoses aren't allowed by law in many states, but there's nothing
can be done about you from replacing old ones with better quality used ones.

There is nothing that can be done to stop *you*, the owner* from using
used hoses, but a licensed gas fitter isn't going to use them if they're
not legal.

Automotive LPG industry needs some restructuring, obviously, not a kill.
Specially installers rorting it by not providing information to the
commuters, about certain cars, that ain't worth lpg conversion.

I don't know what you're on about here, and I don't think you do either.

You can't just drive into any lpg installer with any old car and have it
converted. There needs to be a complianced kit to suit the particular
car in question, and the only way such kits become available is because
there is a demand for it.

So, if there exists a kit for a Toyota Corolla, it's because enough
people have requested them to be fitted for the kit makers to bother
putting one together.

I won't be surprised by many things, 'cos I've been in close contact with
automotive industry for enough long time.

In what capacity?

Anybody, who take off a properly converted(factory LPG) LPG system in car
they just bought would be ignorant and silly.
If the person believes it's no good for the motor, they can simply leave it
and drive on petrol(if dual fuel).
But there's no solution if the person is paranoid about lpg explosions and
leaks.
And BTW, removing and lpg system has to be done by a licensed installer.
It's unlikely average Joe would know how to do it safely.

The average joe who removes one would probably be unaware of that, or
couldn't give a rats if they were.

And buying a badly installed lpg converted car is even sillier, 'cos the
damage is done already, in most cases.

The average Joe is unlikely to know if a car's been converted well,
poorly or otherwise.

How so? Look at the facts.
The price jumped from 55c(which I was already whinging about) to 90c. That's
60% price leap, happened over night.

Yep. And.....

> You wait and see.

Wait and see what exactly?

> They are closing the subsidy scheme in few months. I ain't making it up.

It's old news. The end of the subsidy has been known for a long time. So
what?

No private owner would bother to own an LPG car without the subsidy and the
rising LPG price(comparing to petrol and diesel).

You don't understand the effects the subsidies have had on the industry.

All giving owners a subsidy to fit gas kits did was to increase the
price of the kit by the amount of the subsidy grant. For example, when
the 2 thousand buck grant was offered about 5 years ago, all that
happened was the price of every conversion rose by 2 thousand bucks
overnight. For gas installers it was the best thing since sliced bread,
as the cost of the conversion was still effectively the same for the car
owner, and the gas converter got an extra 2 large in his pocket for nothing.

When the subsidy is eventually removed nothing will change as far as the
car owner is concerned. He'll still be out of pocket by the same amount.

> For me, my Patrol on LPG is close to useless already.

It must be seriously fucked up if running it on gas is more expensive
than running it on petrol. Even at today's prices.

I'm seriously considering putting on an EFI dongle to improve mileage, even
though I love the good old age carby technology.

"Carby" and "technology" aren't generally two words I would use in the
same sentence



--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

 

[Damian]

"Noddy" <me@wardengineering.com.au> wrote in message
news:ldhc6f$th4$1@dont-email.me...

On 13/02/14 2:50 AM, Damian wrote:

Nope. That's just a story made up to bullshit us. There's much more going
on
with the price jumps.

Hang on a second. You originally *asked* why it was that the price has
jumped, and now you're *telling* everyone why?

I'm not telling anthing man.
Just unloading what I've 'discovered' so far while the thread expands.

Take into account the wear and tear on LPG converted engines, low
kilometers per litre, etc.

The wear rate of lpg engines is considerably less than it is on petrol
engines all else being equal.

I'm sorry man. You have no idea what you're talking about.
You can argue about being equal for a properly converted ones
But, no way for the majority of poorly converted dual fuel ones.
Have you seen and heard of owners whinging about the saving being not worth
it,
'cos of the higher and less than earlier expected repair costs on some lpg
cars?

Most dual fuel ones aren't properly tuned for both lpg and petrol. And some
cars like mine,
it's not even possible. That's why I have it tuned for lpg and drive couple
of kms a day on petrol, just
to make sure petrol side of it doesn't get stuffed up by non use.

Just google it. LPG causes extra wear on many parts of the internals and
externals of the engine.
Having to rev the motor high to get the same amount of power is enough
reason alone.
Imagine doing it first thing in the morning when the motor is cold and most
critical parts aren't properly lubricated due to being just started.
This is why straight gas cars are usually better, 'cos they usually get
modified for that.
Dual fuel is dodgy, 'cos most installers do the el cheapo and handover the
car to the owner.

I bet you won't be spending thousands on an LPG conversion.

I can't speak for anyone else, but in the last 6 years I spent 5 grand on
lpg conversions on my own vehicles and I'd happily do so again tomorrow if
I had one that needed it.

I bet you won't be 'happily' doing it once the subsidy is gone.
Wait until June and 'enjoy' it after.

The cost of the conversion in isolation isn't the critical factor. It's
how long it'll take you to recover the money and *then* go over onto the
savings side of the equation that is important.

Yes. It's not worth it for a commuter who does limited amount of kms a week
and live near the city and work there.

Compare it with the Petrol price and the power you get from Petrol
engine.
conventional dual fuel engines produce less power with LPG.
Even EFI ones produce less power per RPM.

Rubbish

You have to prove it with data. I ain't buying your word.
I haven't seen a single installer, manufacturer of conversion kits who'll
guarantee more power from their kits/conversions.

Theoritically, you can always argue with your claws and teeth that it's
feasible. But, in reality, Petrol combusts better and produce more
horsepower.
That's the equation I know.
If you wanna prove me wrong, you gonna have to better than bringing in your
subjective experience.

Until very recently I had two vehicles fitted with injected vapour lpg
systems. I still have one (with the same Prinns system being used on both
cars) and their performance is/was indistinguishable between gas and
petrol.

Rubbish.
Indistinguishable as you say, not better. And you have spend a fortune on
the conversion to get that result.
And you won't be getting your money back, unless you're a really high
mileage commuter.

Furthermore, haven't measured the HP to come to that conclusion. Just
heresay based on your subjective experience.
Reality for the majority of the cars are far different from what you are
conveying.

It is possible for LPG to match the HP of Petrol. But, you have to give
considerable attention to ignition system and fuel system modifications to
achieve that.
Most installers won't go anywhere near that trouble, but doing the best with
what they have to make their money.

Find me an installer or conversion kit that guarantee better HP per
volume(or rather weight) of fuel unit, I will zip my mouth, and won't argue
with you.

I've been using lpg powered vehicles for over 30 years and in that time
I've seen some *appallingly* bad conversions,

Now you're talking

but in almost every single case the resulting performance loss was the
fault of the installer in doing a terrible job.

Finally we're agreeing on something.

A vehicle fitted with a properly installed and tuned injected system
(either vapour or liquid) would be impossible to detect running on either
fuel.

Not impossible, but acceptable.
But, how about the cost of such conversions my man.
Does the subsidy cover anywhere near the total cost of such good
conversions?
And add that to the subsidy going kaput soon and price of lpg keeps sky
rocketing.
You won't be laughing..

If I uderstand it correclty, majority of the LPG cost for the
manufacturer
goes into storing it, and also special
means of transportation. Otherwise, it was a waste product.

LPG is a by-product of the crude oil refining process, but that's not it's
only source. It also comes from natural gas.

I know that. Regardless of some daydreamers like to believe, it ain't
forever.

My point.

I'm sorry, but it's not exactly clear what your point is, other than you
being unhappy with the current price.

That is my point man.
The ridiculously rising price is only the tip of the iceberg.
And I can see clearly where it's heading. It's been happening for years.
It doesn't make any sense economically to apply high excise on a relatively
clean source of fuel, that doesn't cost heaps extra to produce it, but only
to store it.
It's a depleting source of energy. We ought to do a better job with it and
we can do far better job with our policies.

It's due to crooked business decisions by major producers.

Welcome to Capitalism. Enjoy your stay.

Well.......same to you.

My issue is not with corporations. They are doing what they were invented
for and good at, which is being predatory.

It's the government doing a lousy job with the their economic policies.
Extremely short sighted and hopeless.

 

[Damian]

"Noddy" <me@wardengineering.com.au> wrote in message
news:ldhlp4$41m$1@dont-email.me...

On 13/02/14 2:00 PM, Damian wrote:

Don't you think it's wrong?

Compared to.....

Whatever you wanna! Try Petrol and diesel.

There's a big industry that relies on cheaper LPG prices.

Such as?

You don't think the automotive industry is big enough?!!
We are losing all our local car manufacturing industries, arent' we?
Obviously no big problem.
There are speicific industries and farming industries that use LPG in
machinery.
You gonna have to do your own homework if you want all the details.

It's not easy to produce that gas, without raping the land around it.
It's a technology that needs to take carefully.

Sorry, but I don't understand what this actually means.

Coal seam gas needs deep drilling AFAIK.
Many land and properties around those drillings suffered heavy contamination
of water and soil as a result,
leaving the land useless and toxic to live in. What follows is disease,
cancer, death.

What are you talkin about, man?
Alternative fuel Automotive industry alone relies on LPG price.

The alternative fuel industry is very small, and it will survive as long
as lpg remains cheaper than petrol.

Absolute rubbish.

The price of a litre of LPG getting close to a litre of Petrol leaves it's
useless as a cheaper and less polluting source of energy.

Mileage you get from a litre of LPG is ALWAYS lower than or equal to a
litre of Petrol, for a given HP.
In my case, it's roughly equal.
What makes LPG more effective is the cheaper price and less pollution.
All the strict laws of emmision control does not apply to LPG vehicles 'cos
of that.
In other words systems like EGR system, etc is not mandatory in LPG vehicles
and may even reduce the performance of the engine.
Bottomline?
LPG price has to stay one third of the petrol/diesel price or below that,
for it to be effective economically for commuters and industries.
Otherwise conversion cost and maintenance cost, renders it useless
economically, even though it's still a sound alternative economically.

There ain't anything marginal about LPG based industries.

Again I'm not sure what that means.

You need to ask the Rod what he meant by 'marginal' first.

No, it's not. The conversion cost, wear and tear on engine, etc, etc
makes
it worthless.

You're away with the fairies if you think it's worthless.

It's a general statement based on my observations of average commuters and
small businesses that rely on LPG being cheaper.
Far better sounding observation than your fantasies of LPG being economical
regardless of jumping from 55c to 90c overnight.

It's "value" as an alternative fuel depends on a host of variables, such
as the cost of the conversion, the price of the fuel and the number of
miles you travel.

You don't need to parrot me about things I already know.
And the price of the fuel aint' an argument 'cos every idiot out there knows
about LPG price.
Miles you travel affects people like me, taxis, many small businesses,
transport companies, etc.
Conversion cost is higher for more effective and proper LPG conversions.

My conversions broke even in a bit over 12 months,

So much for your LPG injected high tech installations!

> and since then they've been in the black compared to running on petrol.

I didn't understand a word of it.

Even today, it's *still* a cheaper option.

For you, it's possible, depends on the humongous number of kms you do and
how good you are with your number accounting.

 

[Damian]

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:bm37mcFa47kU1@mid.individual.net...

Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote

What is the real reason for LPG price to jump from 55c to 90c?!

The govt started to tax it.

Don't you think it's wrong?

Nope. No reason why it should be taxed like petrol is.

There's a big industry that relies on cheaper LPG prices.

Not a good enough reason to not tax it like petrol is.

There is a MUCH bigger industry that uses petrol and diesel.

Is it likely to go back to 55c again?

Hard to say. We will see some effect of the boom in coal seam gas and
fracking.

It's not easy to produce that gas, without raping the land around it.

Bullshit.

A known fact, unless you live underground.

It's a technology that needs to take carefully.

Nope

Yep.

Doesn't this massive price hike destroy industries

No, there are no industries that dependant on the LPG price.

What are you talkin about, man?
Alternative fuel Automotive industry alone relies on LPG price.

It’s a fart in the bath.

That 'cos you don't have much of the colon left.

Certainly some operations that are marginal will go bust
but that happens with any change in their circumstances

There ain't anything marginal about LPG based industries.

I said OPERATIONS, not industrys.

Define OPERATIONS

and make it worthless to own an LPG converted vehicle?

No, it is still substantially cheaper than petrol.

No, it's not.

Corse it is.

The conversion cost, wear and tear on engine, etc, etc makes it
worthless.

Bullshit. The taxis still use it.

Bullshit. 35c price hike means far less money for them. They will start
whinging and hit the road patrols to allow raising the fare.
If they don't that 'cos they get it other ways via bureaucracy.
The fact they haven't done that already may mean they may have been
compensated other ways.

 

[Damian]

"jonz" <Dunno@why.i.bother> wrote in message
news:ldhqc1$lh0$1@dont-email.me...

On 2/13/2014 5:39 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote

What is the real reason for LPG price to jump from 55c to 90c?!

The govt started to tax it.

Don't you think it's wrong?

Nope. No reason why it should be taxed like petrol is.

There's a big industry that relies on cheaper LPG prices.

Not a good enough reason to not tax it like petrol is.

There is a MUCH bigger industry that uses petrol and diesel.

Is it likely to go back to 55c again?

Hard to say. We will see some effect of the boom in coal seam gas and
fracking.

It's not easy to produce that gas, without raping the land around it.

Bullshit.

It's a technology that needs to take carefully.

Nope.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Do yerself a favour, and check out the long term result of a short term
gain. (financial)

Rod is already doing himself the best favour he could ever do.
He's stayling alive just to post here.
Without usenet, he got no reasons to live, well....other than fartbook, of
course!

>The almighty dollar rules again. capitalism eh?....aint it wonderful?.

Yep. It's exhileratingly fantastic.

We are in the best time in History of Autralia. By that I meant man history
of some 60k years. )
By that I meant, the time right now. )

Doesn't this massive price hike destroy industries

No, there are no industries that dependant on the LPG price.

What are you talkin about, man?
Alternative fuel Automotive industry alone relies on LPG price.

It’s a fart in the bath.

Certainly some operations that are marginal will go bust
but that happens with any change in their circumstances

There ain't anything marginal about LPG based industries.

I said OPERATIONS, not industrys.

and make it worthless to own an LPG converted vehicle?

No, it is still substantially cheaper than petrol.

No, it's not.

Corse it is.

The conversion cost, wear and tear on engine, etc, etc makes it
worthless.

Bullshit. The taxis still use it.


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