LPG price?

[Damian]

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:bm3epoFbhr0U1@mid.individual.net...

jonz <Dunno@why.i.bother> wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote

What is the real reason for LPG price to jump from 55c to 90c?!

The govt started to tax it.

Don't you think it's wrong?

Nope. No reason why it should be taxed like petrol is.

There's a big industry that relies on cheaper LPG prices.

Not a good enough reason to not tax it like petrol is.

There is a MUCH bigger industry that uses petrol and diesel.

Is it likely to go back to 55c again?

Hard to say. We will see some effect of the boom in coal seam gas and
fracking.

It's not easy to produce that gas, without raping the land around it.

Bullshit.

It's a technology that needs to take carefully.

Nope.

Do yerself a favour,

Don’t need to.

and check out the long term result

That is fine.

of a short term gain. (financial)

There is a lot more than short term financial gain.

The almighty dollar rules again. capitalism eh?....aint it wonderful?.

Yep. A decent mix of capitalism and socialism

There is no such animal.(" a decent mixture"). It's just a mixture, if
there's any socialism in it at all.

> leaves all the other alternatives for dead.

What other alternatives?!!

Doesn't this massive price hike destroy industries

No, there are no industries that dependant on the LPG price.

What are you talkin about, man?
Alternative fuel Automotive industry alone relies on LPG price.

It’s a fart in the bath.

Certainly some operations that are marginal will go bust
but that happens with any change in their circumstances

There ain't anything marginal about LPG based industries.

I said OPERATIONS, not industrys.

and make it worthless to own an LPG converted vehicle?

No, it is still substantially cheaper than petrol.

No, it's not.

Corse it is.

The conversion cost, wear and tear on engine, etc, etc makes it
worthless.

Bullshit. The taxis still use it.

 

[Damian]

"jonz" <Dunno@why.i.bother> wrote in message
news:ldi25t$pol$1@dont-email.me...

On 2/13/2014 7:41 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
jonz <Dunno@why.i.bother> wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote

What is the real reason for LPG price to jump from 55c to 90c?!

The govt started to tax it.

Don't you think it's wrong?

Nope. No reason why it should be taxed like petrol is.

There's a big industry that relies on cheaper LPG prices.

Not a good enough reason to not tax it like petrol is.

There is a MUCH bigger industry that uses petrol and diesel.

Is it likely to go back to 55c again?

Hard to say. We will see some effect of the boom in coal seam gas
and fracking.

It's not easy to produce that gas, without raping the land around it.

Bullshit.

It's a technology that needs to take carefully.

Nope.

Do yerself a favour,

Don’t need to.

and check out the long term result

That is fine.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
What is fine?

Nothing is fine, AFAIK, at least about LPG price.
Every stupidly conservative, hopelessly right wing government who has in
their blood to serve large corporations(only)
will always look into things like fuel excise to raise revenue when they run
out of bullshit.

of a short term gain. (financial)

There is a lot more than short term financial gain.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yeah? like what

Like.......... zero, niente, nada, nichego, kitu, etc etc.

The almighty dollar rules again. capitalism eh?....aint it wonderful?.

Yep. A decent mix of capitalism and socialism
leaves all the other alternatives for dead.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~``
So, what do have here?.

A bastardized version of capitalism, rapidly gaining on yanks and will
surpass them sometime soon.
So, keep counting on having to get bank loans for higher education at
beautifully attractive interest rates and
and having to remortgage for emergency+other medical expenses or prepare to
lose your fingers and toes.

Crap!
Now I'm talking too much!

A.........h, BTW, I'm taking GAMSAT to become a medical practitioner, 'cos
more private hospitals will be opening than ever.
Also I will take a crash course in Casino jobs. A day job and a night job to
support each seperate families I'm planning to raise in
each state.

Crap!
Now I'm really pushing it!

Ok, I'm zipping it now!

Doesn't this massive price hike destroy industries

No, there are no industries that dependant on the LPG price.

What are you talkin about, man?
Alternative fuel Automotive industry alone relies on LPG price.

It’s a fart in the bath.

Certainly some operations that are marginal will go bust
but that happens with any change in their circumstances

There ain't anything marginal about LPG based industries.

I said OPERATIONS, not industrys.

and make it worthless to own an LPG converted vehicle?

No, it is still substantially cheaper than petrol.

No, it's not.

Corse it is.

The conversion cost, wear and tear on engine, etc, etc makes it
worthless.

Bullshit. The taxis still use it.




--
“Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea- massive,
difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind
boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it”

 

[Damian]

"Noddy" <me@wardengineering.com.au> wrote in message
news:ldihj3$bmo$1@dont-email.me...

On 13/02/14 9:18 PM, Damian wrote:

Very simple. It cost more to drive. The price hike is 60%+.
No rocket science. Do the simple math.

I can understand it changing your running costs, but how does it change
the value of your vehicle?

Come on man.
Why do you think we have a high demand for little fuel efficient car's than
ever in history?
That is simply 'cos of the cost of fuel rapidly rising.
Average Joe can't afford to have fuel guzzlers anymore.
When LPG price goes up, the value of LPG cars go down.
What to understand there?

I do care, 'cos it costs me extra 35c a litre.
What used to cost me less than $90 a week before, jumped overnight to
$150
a week.
That's commuting.

The price has jumped for everyone. Not just you.

Where did I indicate I'm a narcissistic?
My words may represent many bums, just like me.

I dont wanna get into the long trips across the country, 'cos perhaps I
shouldn't whinge about it 'cos the
government may not need to pay for your holiday expenditure savings on
lpg.

Not sure I understand what you're on about.

I just said, I do long trips for educational and other type of fun. It saves
me heaps 'cos of the car's on LPG.
And it ain't directly helping economy when I go on long trips, yet I enjoy
the relatively
lesser fuel cost. It would've cost me heaps more if my car's driven on
petrol.
I consider it's a privilege to have cheaper LPG fuel when it comes to
holidaying, but consider it's my right
when it comes to commuting.
Privilges can be taken away, rights can't(in an ideal world)

Then you know very little about cars, I afraid, specially duel fuel ones.
There's no golden rule about it.

Is there really?

There ain't really!

Some cars do get condemned for having LPG 'cos that car shouldn't have
been
on lpg in the first place.
Other cars have higher value due to LPG conversion.
It's all depend on the type of car+quality of LPG conversion.

Can't say I ever noticed it myself, and I'd bet my left one I've seen more
lpg equipped cars that you have pal

You've just lost your bet pal(even if you're hundred years older than me),
unless you're an LPG techie, which I don't think you are

It's likely you just lost your 'left one' and may have to send it to me via
express post.

Then you need to do your homework.

My homework is just fine, thanks.

Get to know about the large passenger cars and SUVs that are suitable for
LPG conversion.
The ones properly converted always had extra value for private passenger
cars.
The key word is 'suitable'.
You get a Toyota Corolla and stupidly convert it to LPG and expect huge
savings and higher car value,
then you're dreaming.

Uh-huh.

You do have a point in one sense.
Last fifteen years, the LPG price has been rapidly rising, and that
comparing to the petrol and diesel price as well.
So, proportionately LPG prices has been rising steadily as well.
In anyway, LPG alternative fuel industry is getting killed obviously by
the
government and certain lobbysts.
They are closing the LPG conversion subsidy scheme in a few months time.
It's pretty obvious.
LPG as a cheaper, environmentally sound altnerative fuel in cars is
becoming
history, unless a future government decide to do things differently
and put the system back again.

It will always be around. As soon as the subsidy drops the cost of your
average conversion will fall by a similar amount.

You can't guarantee that.

Just like the cost of conversions *rose* by a similar amount as soon as
the subsidy was implemented

Yes. But dunno about 'similar' amount though.
ACCC must have been asleep when that happened.

They(ACCC) obviously on a self induced coma right now.

Taht 'cos they buy cars stupidly converted to LPG or stupidly convert
their
existing cars without doing proper homework.
Then end up spending a fortune on repairs due to LPG fuel use. That being
on
top of the savings from driving on LPG.
An installer usually will convert any vehicle you take to them, 'cos it's
lot of money for them.
So, they won't tell you that you car ain't worth LPG conversion

I don't know where you get this crap from,

From being in Automotive industry.
And you're right. I do get lot of 'crap' from there.
Like what I'm getting right now.

>but any car that runs on petrol will run equally well on lpg.

That's absolute 100% rubbish.
Either you're an LPG installer or you're being duped by a one.

You can win that argument in theory, 'cos any car can be made to withstand
LPG fuel by making
considerable modifications.
But, the million dollar quesiton is that, "Is it worth it economically"?
The answer is, "It is not worth the trouble for many cars".

The only argument is whether or not a conversion is cost effective, and
that can only be answered by the individual owner.

I've seen Hyundai Excels converted to lpg that were very profitable
ventures,

I would love to see that Hyuandai Excel LPG car that profited from that
conversion.
'cos I haven't been able to find a one yet.
Can you direct me to the owner of that car?

>and I've seen Ford Falcons and Holden Commodores that lost money.

Falcons Ok if you do it properly.
Commodores are a tricky business, depend on the model.
VLs, and before models ok. VS, VTs aren't a good choice for LPG conversions
unless you're ready to spend fair bit of money to modify it properly.

Personally, I wouldn't bother with LPG conversion on late model commodores.

Only if you've done your homework before buying a converted one or
converting a one you already have.
Some car motors will get stuffed up by LPG conversion, simply 'cos they
are
either unsuitable or the
conversion is done cheaply without modifying the internal engine
parts(and
external).

There isn't a car motor built in the last 20 years that isn't suitable for
lpg.

That means since 1994.
You are dead wrong about that.
You would be really silly to put LPG on Holden Barinas, Huandai Getz, Mazda
2 and 3, etc, etc.

But again, if you're arguing theoritically, you'll be the winner, but the
loser economically.

Used anything can sell next to nothing on ebay, specially LPG kits.
They aren't safe for average user and most installers won't touch them.

Rubbish

Fact.

Most installers won't touch used kits because (a) they lose their profit
margin in selling you a new kit, and (b) they won't warranty used
equipment they know nothing about (and I wouldn't either).

So, why is it 'rubbish' then? did you lose your plot?!

Somebody like me, sometime purchase them for peanuts and discard the bad
bits and keep the good bits to replace the worn out ones.
For example, I replaced my old worn out converter with a used one I
bought
off ebay. Installers usually don't like that.

Why would they? Why would they bother fucking around with a used one when
the most expensive *new* one is a couple hundred bucks of which they get a
slice of the price as profit?

Just a tiny slice man. Most of their earnings come from labour, not from the
friggin brand new parts.
I know that for a fact, 'cos I used to work for a one, and I was his friggin
bookkeeper for a very short period.

AFAIK, used hoses aren't allowed by law in many states, but there's
nothing
can be done about you from replacing old ones with better quality used
ones.

There is nothing that can be done to stop *you*, the owner* from using
used hoses, but a licensed gas fitter isn't going to use them if they're
not legal.

Correct, in theory.
But, I do know some of the small operators do use, used ones in acceptable
quality. )
Don't waste your time arguing about it with me,
We won't get anywhere. )

Automotive LPG industry needs some restructuring, obviously, not a kill.
Specially installers rorting it by not providing information to the
commuters, about certain cars, that ain't worth lpg conversion.

I don't know what you're on about here,

I think you do know, but you dont wanna talk about it.

> and I don't think you do either.

I most certainly have some good idea what I'm talking about.

You can't just drive into any lpg installer with any old car and have it
converted.

Compliance is an Umbrella term.
States regulations govern what an owner or installer can/can't do.
And owner/installer bend the rules whereever they can.
You can convert 'any' old car, provided it fits in with the state reguations
of safety.
And there're many ways to do that when some cars don't seem to fit with
that.
Most of those issues are roadworthy related.

There needs to be a complianced kit to suit the particular car in question,
and the only way such kits become available is because there is a demand
for it.

I dunno where you get your information from. But these compliance plate laws
are
regulated by states.

Perhaps you might care to elaborate on what you specifically meant by a
"Compliance kit" to "suit a particular car"?!!!

So, if there exists a kit for a Toyota Corolla, it's because enough people
have requested them to be fitted for the kit makers to bother putting one
together.

I dunno how they do it in your area?
A particular compliance kit for each car model?!!!
What did you mean by a compliance kit?
I prefer to talk about conversion kits.
Conversion kits can be different for the same model as well.

I won't be surprised by many things, 'cos I've been in close contact with
automotive industry for enough long time.

In what capacity?

Technical capacity.
And sometime, due to my stupidity, management and bookkeeping capacity.

Anybody, who take off a properly converted(factory LPG) LPG system in car
they just bought would be ignorant and silly.
If the person believes it's no good for the motor, they can simply leave
it
and drive on petrol(if dual fuel).
But there's no solution if the person is paranoid about lpg explosions
and
leaks.
And BTW, removing and lpg system has to be done by a licensed installer.
It's unlikely average Joe would know how to do it safely.

The average joe who removes one would probably be unaware of that, or
couldn't give a rats if they were.

If you've seen what I've seen, you wouldn't say that.

And buying a badly installed lpg converted car is even sillier, 'cos the
damage is done already, in most cases.

The average Joe is unlikely to know if a car's been converted well, poorly
or otherwise.

Correct.
That's a good reason not to fiddle with a well known danger of fiddling with
LPG installations.

How so? Look at the facts.
The price jumped from 55c(which I was already whinging about) to 90c.
That's
60% price leap, happened over night.

Yep. And.....

And........what more do you want? Petrol price = LPG price?!!!

You wait and see.

Wait and see what exactly?

Petrol price = LPG price
The inevitable death of LPG cars, provided the LPG prices comparatively keep
rising the way it is.

They are closing the subsidy scheme in few months. I ain't making it up.

It's old news.

Yeah, right.

>The end of the subsidy has been known for a long time. So what?

How long have you known of it?

No private owner would bother to own an LPG car without the subsidy and
the
rising LPG price(comparing to petrol and diesel).

You don't understand the effects the subsidies have had on the industry.

All giving owners a subsidy to fit gas kits did was to increase the price
of the kit by the amount of the subsidy grant. For example, when the 2
thousand buck grant was offered about 5 years ago, all that happened was
the price of every conversion rose by 2 thousand bucks overnight. For gas
installers it was the best thing since sliced bread, as the cost of the
conversion was still effectively the same for the car owner, and the gas
converter got an extra 2 large in his pocket for nothing.

Are you saying that's the way exactly that happened?!!!
Basically, the kit builders or the intallers jacked the price up double,
while obviously ripping off the
commuters and government of their money?
And the good government sat on their fat arse and did nothing about it?!!!
And ACCC voluntarily took self inducing coma injectiongs during that
time?!!!

When the subsidy is eventually removed nothing will change as far as the
car owner is concerned. He'll still be out of pocket by the same amount.

You're making promises about things you have no control of and perhaps no
idea about.

For me, my Patrol on LPG is close to useless already.

It must be seriously fucked up if running it on gas is more expensive than
running it on petrol. Even at today's prices.

Nope. The government's fucked up decision to allow the price hike to fuck up
people like me,
which in return may fuck up the car as well.

And I never said it's more expensive, at least not yet, but worthless.
By the time I put an EFI dongle and tune it properly, I won't bother with
LPG.
By that time Petrol price = LPG price.
So, sit tight and enjoy it.

I'm seriously considering putting on an EFI dongle to improve mileage,
even
though I love the good old age carby technology.

"Carby" and "technology" aren't generally two words I would use in the
same sentence

Man, if you wanna debate semantics, there are other NGs. )

 

[Rod Speed]

jonz <Dunno@why.i.bother> wrote

Rod Speed wrote
jonz <Dunno@why.i.bother> wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote

What is the real reason for LPG price to jump from 55c to 90c?!

The govt started to tax it.

Don't you think it's wrong?

Nope. No reason why it should be taxed like petrol is.

There's a big industry that relies on cheaper LPG prices.

Not a good enough reason to not tax it like petrol is.

There is a MUCH bigger industry that uses petrol and diesel.

Is it likely to go back to 55c again?

Hard to say. We will see some effect of the boom in coal seam gas
and fracking.

It's not easy to produce that gas, without raping the land around it.

Bullshit.

It's a technology that needs to take carefully.

Nope.

Do yerself a favour,

Don’t need to.

and check out the long term result

That is fine.

What is fine?

The long term result.

of a short term gain. (financial)

There is a lot more than short term financial gain.

Yeah? like what

We get gas to use as a transport fuel and source of
energy for a lot longer than if we did not do that.

The almighty dollar rules again. capitalism eh?....aint it wonderful?.

Yep. A decent mix of capitalism and socialism
leaves all the other alternatives for dead.

So, what do have here?.

A decent mix of capitalism and socialism and
controls on the worst excesses of capitalism.

Doesn't this massive price hike destroy industries

No, there are no industries that dependant on the LPG price.

What are you talkin about, man?
Alternative fuel Automotive industry alone relies on LPG price.

It’s a fart in the bath.

Certainly some operations that are marginal will go bust
but that happens with any change in their circumstances

There ain't anything marginal about LPG based industries.

I said OPERATIONS, not industrys.

and make it worthless to own an LPG converted vehicle?

No, it is still substantially cheaper than petrol.

No, it's not.

Corse it is.

The conversion cost, wear and tear on engine, etc, etc makes it
worthless.

Bullshit. The taxis still use it.

 

[Rod Speed]

Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote

Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote

What is the real reason for LPG price to jump from 55c to 90c?!

The govt started to tax it.

Don't you think it's wrong?

Nope. No reason why it should be taxed like petrol is.

There's a big industry that relies on cheaper LPG prices.

Not a good enough reason to not tax it like petrol is.

There is a MUCH bigger industry that uses petrol and diesel.

Is it likely to go back to 55c again?

Hard to say. We will see some effect of the boom in coal seam gas and
fracking.

It's not easy to produce that gas, without raping the land around it.

Bullshit.

A known fact,

Bullshit.

> unless you live underground.

More bullshit.

It's a technology that needs to take carefully.

Nope

Yep.

Nope.

Doesn't this massive price hike destroy industries

No, there are no industries that dependant on the LPG price.

What are you talkin about, man?
Alternative fuel Automotive industry alone relies on LPG price.

It’s a fart in the bath.

That 'cos you don't have much of the colon left.

Any 2 year old could leave that for dead.

Certainly some operations that are marginal will go bust
but that happens with any change in their circumstances

There ain't anything marginal about LPG based industries.

I said OPERATIONS, not industrys.

Define OPERATIONS

Try a dictionary.

and make it worthless to own an LPG converted vehicle?

No, it is still substantially cheaper than petrol.

No, it's not.

Corse it is.

The conversion cost, wear and tear on engine, etc, etc makes it
worthless.

Bullshit. The taxis still use it.

Bullshit.

Fact.

> 35c price hike means far less money for them.

Irrelevant to whether it is still better value than petrol for them.

They will start whinging and hit the road patrols to allow raising the
fare.

And will get an obscene gesture in their general
direction from the govt when they try that.

> If they don't that 'cos they get it other ways via bureaucracy.

Pure fantasy.

The fact they haven't done that already may mean they may have been
compensated other ways.

Pure fantasy.

 

[Rod Speed]

Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote

Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
jonz <Dunno@why.i.bother> wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote

What is the real reason for LPG price to jump from 55c to 90c?!

The govt started to tax it.

Don't you think it's wrong?

Nope. No reason why it should be taxed like petrol is.

There's a big industry that relies on cheaper LPG prices.

Not a good enough reason to not tax it like petrol is.

There is a MUCH bigger industry that uses petrol and diesel.

Is it likely to go back to 55c again?

Hard to say. We will see some effect of the boom in coal seam gas and
fracking.

It's not easy to produce that gas, without raping the land around it.

Bullshit.

It's a technology that needs to take carefully.

Nope.

Do yerself a favour,

Don’t need to.

and check out the long term result

That is fine.

of a short term gain. (financial)

There is a lot more than short term financial gain.

The almighty dollar rules again. capitalism eh?....aint it wonderful?.

Yep. A decent mix of capitalism and socialism

There is no such animal.(" a decent mixture").

Bullshit.

> It's just a mixture, if there's any socialism in it at all.

There always is, even in HongKong
before it was handed back to China.

leaves all the other alternatives for dead.

What other alternatives?!!

Communism, anarchy, no socialism at all, unfettered capitalism etc etc etc.

Doesn't this massive price hike destroy industries

No, there are no industries that dependant on the LPG price.

What are you talkin about, man?
Alternative fuel Automotive industry alone relies on LPG price.

It’s a fart in the bath.

Certainly some operations that are marginal will go bust
but that happens with any change in their circumstances

There ain't anything marginal about LPG based industries.

I said OPERATIONS, not industrys.

and make it worthless to own an LPG converted vehicle?

No, it is still substantially cheaper than petrol.

No, it's not.

Corse it is.

The conversion cost, wear and tear on engine, etc, etc makes it
worthless.

Bullshit. The taxis still use it.

 

[Rod Speed]

"Damian" <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:ldisto$g6u$1@dont-email.me...

"jonz" <Dunno@why.i.bother> wrote in message
news:ldi25t$pol$1@dont-email.me...
On 2/13/2014 7:41 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
jonz <Dunno@why.i.bother> wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote

What is the real reason for LPG price to jump from 55c to 90c?!

The govt started to tax it.

Don't you think it's wrong?

Nope. No reason why it should be taxed like petrol is.

There's a big industry that relies on cheaper LPG prices.

Not a good enough reason to not tax it like petrol is.

There is a MUCH bigger industry that uses petrol and diesel.

Is it likely to go back to 55c again?

Hard to say. We will see some effect of the boom in coal seam gas
and fracking.

It's not easy to produce that gas, without raping the land around it.

Bullshit.

It's a technology that needs to take carefully.

Nope.

Do yerself a favour,

Don’t need to.

and check out the long term result

That is fine.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
What is fine?

Nothing is fine, AFAIK, at least about LPG price.

Bullshit. There is no reason why the likes of you
should not be taxed just like everyone else is.

Every stupidly conservative, hopelessly right wing government who has in
their blood to serve large corporations(only) will always look into things
like fuel excise to raise revenue when they run out of bullshit.

It was your clowns that started taxing LPG.

of a short term gain. (financial)

There is a lot more than short term financial gain.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yeah? like what

Like.......... zero, niente, nada, nichego, kitu, etc etc.


The almighty dollar rules again. capitalism eh?....aint it wonderful?.

Yep. A decent mix of capitalism and socialism
leaves all the other alternatives for dead.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~``
So, what do have here?.

A bastardized version of capitalism,

Even sillier.

> rapidly gaining on yanks and will surpass them sometime soon.

Even sillier with health care alone.

> So, keep counting on having to get bank loans for higher education

Another lie.

at beautifully attractive interest rates and and having to remortgage for
emergency+other medical expenses

Another lie. It didn’t cost me a cent when I needed that
except for the newspapers.

> or prepare to lose your fingers and toes.

Even sillier.

Crap!
Now I'm talking too much!

Crapping as always do.

A.........h, BTW, I'm taking GAMSAT to become a medical practitioner, 'cos
more private hospitals will be opening than ever.
Also I will take a crash course in Casino jobs. A day job and a night job
to support each seperate families I'm planning to raise in
each state.

Crap!
Now I'm really pushing it!

Ok, I'm zipping it now!

We flushed him where he belongs.

Doesn't this massive price hike destroy industries

No, there are no industries that dependant on the LPG price.

What are you talkin about, man?
Alternative fuel Automotive industry alone relies on LPG price.

It’s a fart in the bath.

Certainly some operations that are marginal will go bust
but that happens with any change in their circumstances

There ain't anything marginal about LPG based industries.

I said OPERATIONS, not industrys.

and make it worthless to own an LPG converted vehicle?

No, it is still substantially cheaper than petrol.

No, it's not.

Corse it is.

The conversion cost, wear and tear on engine, etc, etc makes it
worthless.

Bullshit. The taxis still use it.

 

[news13]

On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 03:08:12 +1100, Damian wrote:

"Noddy" <me@wardengineering.com.au> wrote in message
news:ldhlp4$41m$1@dont-email.me...
On 13/02/14 2:00 PM, Damian wrote:

Don't you think it's wrong?

Compared to.....

Whatever you wanna! Try Petrol and diesel.


There's a big industry that relies on cheaper LPG prices.

Such as?

You don't think the automotive industry is big enough?!!

No.

% for domestic hot water?
% for process heat?
% for automotive fuel?
% for restaurants.


> We are losing all our local car manufacturing industries, arent' we?

Nope, ALL implies the entire. Plenty of them have contracts OS.
FWIW, there is apparently 900,000 still in manufacture in Australia after
you knock of the car related peeps.

Obviously no big problem.

There are speicific industries and farming industries that use LPG in
machinery.

I suspect anything that gets supplied by 9kg or 45kg tanks isn't going to
add up to much.

> You gonna have to do your own homework if you want all the details.

Surely you can provide something to support your argument.
Even ABS figures?
Although noodle wont accept them, others will.

 

[Xeno Lith]

On 14/02/2014 5:16 AM, Damian wrote:

"Noddy" <me@wardengineering.com.au> wrote in message
news:ldihj3$bmo$1@dont-email.me...
On 13/02/14 9:18 PM, Damian wrote:

Very simple. It cost more to drive. The price hike is 60%+.
No rocket science. Do the simple math.

I can understand it changing your running costs, but how does it change
the value of your vehicle?

Come on man.
Why do you think we have a high demand for little fuel efficient car's than
ever in history?
That is simply 'cos of the cost of fuel rapidly rising.
Average Joe can't afford to have fuel guzzlers anymore.
When LPG price goes up, the value of LPG cars go down.
What to understand there?

If you go back in history, you will find the price of petrol, relative
to average income, isn't dearer by any significant margin. The greatest
advantage we have these days is cars that are cheaper, more powerful and
more fuel efficient.

<snip>

Not sure I understand what you're on about.

I just said, I do long trips for educational and other type of fun. It saves
me heaps 'cos of the car's on LPG.
And it ain't directly helping economy when I go on long trips, yet I enjoy
the relatively
lesser fuel cost. It would've cost me heaps more if my car's driven on
petrol.
I consider it's a privilege to have cheaper LPG fuel when it comes to
holidaying, but consider it's my right
when it comes to commuting.
Privilges can be taken away, rights can't(in an ideal world)

The ability to buy fuel, at whatever price, has always been a privilege.

Then you know very little about cars, I afraid, specially duel fuel ones.
There's no golden rule about it.

Is there really?

There ain't really!


Some cars do get condemned for having LPG 'cos that car shouldn't have
been
on lpg in the first place.
Other cars have higher value due to LPG conversion.
It's all depend on the type of car+quality of LPG conversion.

Can't say I ever noticed it myself, and I'd bet my left one I've seen more
lpg equipped cars that you have pal

You've just lost your bet pal(even if you're hundred years older than me),
unless you're an LPG techie, which I don't think you are

It's likely you just lost your 'left one' and may have to send it to me via
express post.

I think Noddy lost both of them. That's why he needs the "pills".

Then you need to do your homework.

<snip>

It will always be around. As soon as the subsidy drops the cost of your
average conversion will fall by a similar amount.

You can't guarantee that.

History does guarantee it however.

Just like the cost of conversions *rose* by a similar amount as soon as
the subsidy was implemented

Yes. But dunno about 'similar' amount though.
ACCC must have been asleep when that happened.

They(ACCC) obviously on a self induced coma right now.

And have been for a long time! They have the same sized balls as Noddy -
invisible.

Taht 'cos they buy cars stupidly converted to LPG or stupidly convert
their
existing cars without doing proper homework.
Then end up spending a fortune on repairs due to LPG fuel use. That being
on
top of the savings from driving on LPG.
An installer usually will convert any vehicle you take to them, 'cos it's
lot of money for them.
So, they won't tell you that you car ain't worth LPG conversion

I don't know where you get this crap from,

From being in Automotive industry.
And you're right. I do get lot of 'crap' from there.
Like what I'm getting right now.

but any car that runs on petrol will run equally well on lpg.

That's absolute 100% rubbish.
Either you're an LPG installer or you're being duped by a one.

You can win that argument in theory, 'cos any car can be made to withstand
LPG fuel by making
considerable modifications.

All cars made since the intro of unleaded can handle LPG fuel with no
great drama.

But, the million dollar quesiton is that, "Is it worth it economically"?
The answer is, "It is not worth the trouble for many cars".

The only argument is whether or not a conversion is cost effective, and
that can only be answered by the individual owner.

I've seen Hyundai Excels converted to lpg that were very profitable
ventures,

I would love to see that Hyuandai Excel LPG car that profited from that
conversion.
'cos I haven't been able to find a one yet.
Can you direct me to the owner of that car?

Depends on the mileage the car does.

and I've seen Ford Falcons and Holden Commodores that lost money.

Falcons Ok if you do it properly.
Commodores are a tricky business, depend on the model.
VLs, and before models ok. VS, VTs aren't a good choice for LPG conversions
unless you're ready to spend fair bit of money to modify it properly.

Personally, I wouldn't bother with LPG conversion on late model commodores.

I wouldn't own a Commodore so that point is moot as far as I'm
concerned. My Toyota Corolla runs perfectly fine on unleaded so I'm
quite happy not to dick with it. It's not like I do a huge mileage
anyway. I was going to do a 3,000 kilometre round trip to Melbourne
earlier this week for my annual cancer checkup but found it was cheaper
and much more convenient to simply fly down. $300 return airfare, $8.50
bus fare to the airport from here, $35 each way from Melb airport to
Nunawading, a $22 taxi fare from airport to home on return. The fuel
alone would have cost me more than that for the whole trip and would
have been stressful to boot.

Only if you've done your homework before buying a converted one or
converting a one you already have.
Some car motors will get stuffed up by LPG conversion, simply 'cos they
are
either unsuitable or the
conversion is done cheaply without modifying the internal engine
parts(and
external).

There isn't a car motor built in the last 20 years that isn't suitable for
lpg.

That means since 1994.
You are dead wrong about that.
You would be really silly to put LPG on Holden Barinas, Huandai Getz, Mazda
2 and 3, etc, etc.

But again, if you're arguing theoritically, you'll be the winner, but the
loser economically.


Used anything can sell next to nothing on ebay, specially LPG kits.
They aren't safe for average user and most installers won't touch them.

Rubbish

Fact.

You need to be a certified LPG installer to fit a kit, even if it is
used. Either that or you need to get a certified bod to sign off on your
conversion if you aren't certified. The biggest issue with used kits is
the age of the tank. Over 10 years old since new or last inspection and
it's suddenly much less viable.

Most installers won't touch used kits because (a) they lose their profit
margin in selling you a new kit, and (b) they won't warranty used
equipment they know nothing about (and I wouldn't either).

So, why is it 'rubbish' then? did you lose your plot?!


Somebody like me, sometime purchase them for peanuts and discard the bad
bits and keep the good bits to replace the worn out ones.
For example, I replaced my old worn out converter with a used one I
bought
off ebay. Installers usually don't like that.

Why would they? Why would they bother fucking around with a used one when
the most expensive *new* one is a couple hundred bucks of which they get a
slice of the price as profit?

Just a tiny slice man. Most of their earnings come from labour, not from the
friggin brand new parts.
I know that for a fact, 'cos I used to work for a one, and I was his friggin
bookkeeper for a very short period.


AFAIK, used hoses aren't allowed by law in many states, but there's
nothing
can be done about you from replacing old ones with better quality used
ones.

There is nothing that can be done to stop *you*, the owner* from using
used hoses, but a licensed gas fitter isn't going to use them if they're
not legal.

Correct, in theory.
But, I do know some of the small operators do use, used ones in acceptable
quality. )
Don't waste your time arguing about it with me,
We won't get anywhere. )

Acceptable quality? How do they determine this? Since their reputation
and, might I add, their certification, is on the line, no reputable
installer will feel particularly comfortable using used plumbing.

Automotive LPG industry needs some restructuring, obviously, not a kill.
Specially installers rorting it by not providing information to the
commuters, about certain cars, that ain't worth lpg conversion.

<snip>

No private owner would bother to own an LPG car without the subsidy and
the
rising LPG price(comparing to petrol and diesel).

You don't understand the effects the subsidies have had on the industry.

All giving owners a subsidy to fit gas kits did was to increase the price
of the kit by the amount of the subsidy grant. For example, when the 2
thousand buck grant was offered about 5 years ago, all that happened was
the price of every conversion rose by 2 thousand bucks overnight. For gas
installers it was the best thing since sliced bread, as the cost of the
conversion was still effectively the same for the car owner, and the gas
converter got an extra 2 large in his pocket for nothing.

Are you saying that's the way exactly that happened?!!!
Basically, the kit builders or the intallers jacked the price up double,
while obviously ripping off the
commuters and government of their money?
And the good government sat on their fat arse and did nothing about it?!!!
And ACCC voluntarily took self inducing coma injectiongs during that
time?!!!

LPG installations weren't the only place it happened. The ACC has been
comatose for as long as I can recall.

When the subsidy is eventually removed nothing will change as far as the
car owner is concerned. He'll still be out of pocket by the same amount.

You're making promises about things you have no control of and perhaps no
idea about.

On this point Noddy is correct.

For me, my Patrol on LPG is close to useless already.

Should have bought a diesel Patrol. I wouldn't even consider a petrol 4WD.

It must be seriously fucked up if running it on gas is more expensive than
running it on petrol. Even at today's prices.

Nope. The government's fucked up decision to allow the price hike to fuck up
people like me,
which in return may fuck up the car as well.

And I never said it's more expensive, at least not yet, but worthless.
By the time I put an EFI dongle and tune it properly, I won't bother with
LPG.
By that time Petrol price = LPG price.
So, sit tight and enjoy it.


I'm seriously considering putting on an EFI dongle to improve mileage,
even
though I love the good old age carby technology.

"Carby" and "technology" aren't generally two words I would use in the
same sentence

Man, if you wanna debate semantics, there are other NGs. )

Carburetors might have been a "newish" technology in 1900 but the only
"technology" that could be applied to them in very recent times was the
add-ons that were applied in order to make them compliant with emission
controls. As you can see, that wasn't a great success.

Ask yourself why carburetors, as a technology, are pretty much extinct
on cars. ;-)

--

Xeno

 

[Noddy]

On 14/02/14 12:46 AM, Damian wrote:

> I'm sorry man. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Yeah, okay. What was your qualification in this area again?

You can argue about being equal for a properly converted ones
But, no way for the majority of poorly converted dual fuel ones.
Have you seen and heard of owners whinging about the saving being not worth
it,
'cos of the higher and less than earlier expected repair costs on some lpg
cars?

Let me say it again just so you completely understand what I'm saying:
LPG does *not* cause increased engine wear. It has the *opposite* effect
in fact. Even on poor installations.

Most dual fuel ones aren't properly tuned for both lpg and petrol. And some
cars like mine,
it's not even possible. That's why I have it tuned for lpg and drive couple
of kms a day on petrol, just
to make sure petrol side of it doesn't get stuffed up by non use.

If you have a dual fuel car and you drive on petrol every now and then
"just to keep things happy" then you are completely wasting your money.

Dual fuel applications are a compromise at best, and the petrol side
should only ever be used as an emergency "get to the nearest gas
station" solution when you run out of LPG.

Just google it. LPG causes extra wear on many parts of the internals and
externals of the engine.

Absolute, complete and *utter* garbage.

If you honestly believe this to be true, then I'm sorry to say that you
have no idea what you're talking about.

Having to rev the motor high to get the same amount of power is enough
reason alone.

How does that wear the engine?

Imagine doing it first thing in the morning when the motor is cold and most
critical parts aren't properly lubricated due to being just started.
This is why straight gas cars are usually better, 'cos they usually get
modified for that.
Dual fuel is dodgy, 'cos most installers do the el cheapo and handover the
car to the owner.

With all due respect I really don't think you have any idea about this.

I bet you won't be 'happily' doing it once the subsidy is gone.
Wait until June and 'enjoy' it after.

I don't have a vehicle that I need to convert at the moment, but if at
some future point I do (and that's likely) I won't think twice about
putting an injected gas kit on it and the amount I'd be out of pocket
today would be no different to what it would be when the subsidy expires.

Yes. It's not worth it for a commuter who does limited amount of kms a week
and live near the city and work there.

Yeah, so why would they bother at *any* time?

You seem to be of the opinion that considering the overall costs is
something new, and that's not the case. I think I put my first vehicle
on lpg in the early 1980's when gas was 9 cents per litre, and back then
the primary consideration influencing the purchase was how long it would
take for the conversion price to break even and go over into profit.

Just as it is now. Nothing has changed on that front.

> You have to prove it with data. I ain't buying your word.

Well, you're the one making a lot of grand claims around here pal, so
how about you go first?

Let's see some references that support your claims that:

1: LPG will damage engines.
2: The rise in the price of gas impacts on your vehicle's value.
3: Used vehicles with lpg kits fitted command a higher average price.

I haven't seen a single installer, manufacturer of conversion kits who'll
guarantee more power from their kits/conversions.

Neither have I, and I'm fucked if I know why you would think there
should be. No one has said that it does.

Theoritically, you can always argue with your claws and teeth that it's
feasible. But, in reality, Petrol combusts better and produce more
horsepower.
That's the equation I know.

And where do you know that from?

If you wanna prove me wrong, you gonna have to better than bringing in your
subjective experience.

To be totally honest I'm not really interested in proving you wrong, as
you strike me as someone who is stuck in a particular mind set that
couldn't be altered with a baseball bat.

No offence, but you're not interested in the truth. Only what you want
to *believe* to be true.

Rubbish.
Indistinguishable as you say, not better.

I never claimed they *were* better. Is English not your first language
or something?

And you have spend a fortune on
the conversion to get that result.

2 and a half grand each. Like I said, 5 thousand bucks

And you won't be getting your money back, unless you're a really high
mileage commuter.

Both cars got their money back in just a whisker over 12 months. One of
the two, a Ford Territory, I sold in November and replaced with a turbo
diesel Hyundai IX35, and the other, am RA Rodeo 3.5 crew cab ute, I
still have 5 years after the conversion.

Furthermore, haven't measured the HP to come to that conclusion. Just
heresay based on your subjective experience.
Reality for the majority of the cars are far different from what you are
conveying.

Remind me again exactly what your experience in this field is?

It is possible for LPG to match the HP of Petrol. But, you have to give
considerable attention to ignition system and fuel system modifications to
achieve that.
Most installers won't go anywhere near that trouble, but doing the best with
what they have to make their money.

You've never been with three suburbs of anything with an ECU controlled
engine. Have you?

Find me an installer or conversion kit that guarantee better HP per
volume(or rather weight) of fuel unit, I will zip my mouth, and won't argue
with you.

Why does it have to be *better*?

I don't know why you've wandered off onto this bullshit tangent, as I
never mentioned anything about it being "better".

> Not impossible, but acceptable.

Stop putting words into my mouth and read my fucking lips:

*Impossible*.

That's what I said. That's what I experience every day when I drive my
car, and I don't need *you* telling me it's *not* the case.

Do we understand each other pal?

> But, how about the cost of such conversions my man.

What about it?

You get what you pay for. If you want a 300 buck gas conversion you're
going to get crap.

Does the subsidy cover anywhere near the total cost of such good
conversions?
And add that to the subsidy going kaput soon and price of lpg keeps sky
rocketing.
You won't be laughing..

I've been laughing for the last 30 years buddy, and the price of lpg
could go to 5 bucks a litre for the next ten years before I got back
into the red.

I know that. Regardless of some daydreamers like to believe, it ain't
forever.

Yeah, okay, and the relevance of that to *this* conversation is what
exactly?

That is my point man.
The ridiculously rising price is only the tip of the iceberg.
And I can see clearly where it's heading. It's been happening for years.
It doesn't make any sense economically to apply high excise on a relatively
clean source of fuel, that doesn't cost heaps extra to produce it, but only
to store it.
It's a depleting source of energy. We ought to do a better job with it and
we can do far better job with our policies.

If you say so.

My issue is not with corporations. They are doing what they were invented
for and good at, which is being predatory.

I'm sorry, but I thought you were just complaining about that very thing

It's the government doing a lousy job with the their economic policies.
Extremely short sighted and hopeless.

Okay.

Alright, well I'm going to leave you to it, as it sounds like you need
to toke another cone.

Rock on man...


--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

 

[jonz]

On 2/14/2014 3:46 AM, Damian wrote:

"jonz" <Dunno@why.i.bother> wrote in message
news:ldi25t$pol$1@dont-email.me...
On 2/13/2014 7:41 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
jonz <Dunno@why.i.bother> wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote

What is the real reason for LPG price to jump from 55c to 90c?!

The govt started to tax it.

Don't you think it's wrong?

Nope. No reason why it should be taxed like petrol is.

There's a big industry that relies on cheaper LPG prices.

Not a good enough reason to not tax it like petrol is.

There is a MUCH bigger industry that uses petrol and diesel.

Is it likely to go back to 55c again?

Hard to say. We will see some effect of the boom in coal seam gas
and fracking.

It's not easy to produce that gas, without raping the land around it.

Bullshit.

It's a technology that needs to take carefully.

Nope.

Do yerself a favour,

Don’t need to.

and check out the long term result

That is fine.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
What is fine?

Nothing is fine, AFAIK, at least about LPG price.
Every stupidly conservative, hopelessly right wing government who has in
their blood to serve large corporations(only)
will always look into things like fuel excise to raise revenue when they run
out of bullshit.


of a short term gain. (financial)

There is a lot more than short term financial gain.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yeah? like what

Like.......... zero, niente, nada, nichego, kitu, etc etc.


The almighty dollar rules again. capitalism eh?....aint it wonderful?.

Yep. A decent mix of capitalism and socialism
leaves all the other alternatives for dead.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~``
So, what do have here?.

A bastardized version of capitalism, rapidly gaining on yanks and will
surpass them sometime soon.
So, keep counting on having to get bank loans for higher education at
beautifully attractive interest rates and
and having to remortgage for emergency+other medical expenses or prepare to
lose your fingers and toes.

Crap!
Now I'm talking too much!

A.........h, BTW, I'm taking GAMSAT to become a medical practitioner, 'cos
more private hospitals will be opening than ever.
Also I will take a crash course in Casino jobs. A day job and a night job to
support each seperate families I'm planning to raise in
each state.

Crap!
Now I'm really pushing it!

Ok, I'm zipping it now!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<GRIN>

Doesn't this massive price hike destroy industries

No, there are no industries that dependant on the LPG price.

What are you talkin about, man?
Alternative fuel Automotive industry alone relies on LPG price.

It’s a fart in the bath.

Certainly some operations that are marginal will go bust
but that happens with any change in their circumstances

There ain't anything marginal about LPG based industries.

I said OPERATIONS, not industrys.

and make it worthless to own an LPG converted vehicle?

No, it is still substantially cheaper than petrol.

No, it's not.

Corse it is.

The conversion cost, wear and tear on engine, etc, etc makes it
worthless.

Bullshit. The taxis still use it.




--
“Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea- massive,
difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind
boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it”

--
“Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea- massive,
difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind
boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it”

 

[Noddy]

On 14/02/14 3:08 AM, Damian wrote:

> You don't think the automotive industry is big enough?!!

"Big" is relative.

The automotive industry is big. The LPG part of it is not.

We are losing all our local car manufacturing industries, arent' we?
Obviously no big problem.

What does that have to do with the cost of lpg?

There are speicific industries and farming industries that use LPG in
machinery.
You gonna have to do your own homework if you want all the details.

I have no idea what you're on about to be honest.

Absolute rubbish.

The price of a litre of LPG getting close to a litre of Petrol leaves it's
useless as a cheaper and less polluting source of energy.

I don't know about your area, but around these parts petrol is a buck 50
per litre while lpg is 91 cents.

That's not close. It's not even *remotely* close, and it *still* makes
lpg a significantly cheaper fuel to use.

Mileage you get from a litre of LPG is ALWAYS lower than or equal to a
litre of Petrol, for a given HP.
In my case, it's roughly equal.

If you get the same mileage out of a litre of lpg as you do out of a
litre of petrol then there is one of three possible answers to explain that:

1. You have the world's most efficient gas system.
2. You have a piss poor petrol system.
3. You can't do basic maths.

I'm not going to be rude and tell you which one I think is most likely


> What makes LPG more effective is the cheaper price and less pollution.

The "pollution" aspect has got absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with
lpg being more "effective"

All the strict laws of emmision control does not apply to LPG vehicles 'cos
of that.
In other words systems like EGR system, etc is not mandatory in LPG vehicles
and may even reduce the performance of the engine.

If you have a dual fuel car that burns petrol, the EGR system needs to
function as normal.

Bottomline?
LPG price has to stay one third of the petrol/diesel price or below that,
for it to be effective economically for commuters and industries.
Otherwise conversion cost and maintenance cost, renders it useless
economically, even though it's still a sound alternative economically.

Rubbish.

The cost per litre of lpg is only *one* part of the equation when
working out the value of such systems, and taking that in isolation
won't give you any idea as to the true value.

For an lpg conversion to be of any benefit to *anyone*, there are a host
of variables that need to be considered such as the cost of the
conversion, the price of the fuel and the mileage required before the
"break even" point is reached.

I don't want to go into a long winded explanation as I think it'd be a
waste of time to be honest, but the short answer is this. If you drive a
4 cylinder car and do on average 5000km's a year then you might not live
long enough to see the costs of a gas conversion recovered. If you drive
a V8 and do 1000km's a week then you're likely to see yourself break
even inside 6 months.

The even shorter answer is that it depends on the individual.

> You need to ask the Rod what he meant by 'marginal' first.

I prefer not to talk to Rod. I think he's a imbecile.

It's a general statement based on my observations of average commuters and
small businesses that rely on LPG being cheaper.
Far better sounding observation than your fantasies of LPG being economical
regardless of jumping from 55c to 90c overnight.

And I suspect he's not on his Pat Malone either

> You don't need to parrot me about things I already know.

Actually pal I really don't think you know at all, as you don't make a
hell of a lot of sense.

And the price of the fuel aint' an argument 'cos every idiot out there knows
about LPG price.

*Jesus*. You *started* this thread pissing and moaning about the price
of LPG, didn't you?

My conversions broke even in a bit over 12 months,

So much for your LPG injected high tech installations!

Do you even understand what I'm saying?

I'm not saying it was *broken* in 12 months. I'm saying I *broke even*
in 12 months. I mean, I'd saved enough in reduced fuel bills in that
time to have recovered the cost of the conversion.

> I didn't understand a word of it.

Yeah, I got that

For you, it's possible, depends on the humongous number of kms you do and
how good you are with your number accounting.

Better than you. That's for sure



--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

 

[jonz]

On 2/14/2014 5:16 AM, Damian wrote:

"Noddy" <me@wardengineering.com.au> wrote in message
news:ldihj3$bmo$1@dont-email.me...
On 13/02/14 9:18 PM, Damian wrote:

Very simple. It cost more to drive. The price hike is 60%+.
No rocket science. Do the simple math.

I can understand it changing your running costs, but how does it change
the value of your vehicle?

Come on man.
Why do you think we have a high demand for little fuel efficient car's than
ever in history?
That is simply 'cos of the cost of fuel rapidly rising.
Average Joe can't afford to have fuel guzzlers anymore.
When LPG price goes up, the value of LPG cars go down.
What to understand there?


I do care, 'cos it costs me extra 35c a litre.
What used to cost me less than $90 a week before, jumped overnight to
$150
a week.
That's commuting.

The price has jumped for everyone. Not just you.

Where did I indicate I'm a narcissistic?
My words may represent many bums, just like me.


I dont wanna get into the long trips across the country, 'cos perhaps I
shouldn't whinge about it 'cos the
government may not need to pay for your holiday expenditure savings on
lpg.

Not sure I understand what you're on about.

I just said, I do long trips for educational and other type of fun. It saves
me heaps 'cos of the car's on LPG.
And it ain't directly helping economy when I go on long trips, yet I enjoy
the relatively
lesser fuel cost. It would've cost me heaps more if my car's driven on
petrol.
I consider it's a privilege to have cheaper LPG fuel when it comes to
holidaying, but consider it's my right
when it comes to commuting.
Privilges can be taken away, rights can't(in an ideal world)


Then you know very little about cars, I afraid, specially duel fuel ones.
There's no golden rule about it.

Is there really?

There ain't really!


Some cars do get condemned for having LPG 'cos that car shouldn't have
been
on lpg in the first place.
Other cars have higher value due to LPG conversion.
It's all depend on the type of car+quality of LPG conversion.

Can't say I ever noticed it myself, and I'd bet my left one I've seen more
lpg equipped cars that you have pal

You've just lost your bet pal(even if you're hundred years older than me),
unless you're an LPG techie, which I don't think you are

It's likely you just lost your 'left one' and may have to send it to me via
express post.


Then you need to do your homework.

My homework is just fine, thanks.

Get to know about the large passenger cars and SUVs that are suitable for
LPG conversion.
The ones properly converted always had extra value for private passenger
cars.
The key word is 'suitable'.
You get a Toyota Corolla and stupidly convert it to LPG and expect huge
savings and higher car value,
then you're dreaming.

Uh-huh.

You do have a point in one sense.
Last fifteen years, the LPG price has been rapidly rising, and that
comparing to the petrol and diesel price as well.
So, proportionately LPG prices has been rising steadily as well.
In anyway, LPG alternative fuel industry is getting killed obviously by
the
government and certain lobbysts.
They are closing the LPG conversion subsidy scheme in a few months time.
It's pretty obvious.
LPG as a cheaper, environmentally sound altnerative fuel in cars is
becoming
history, unless a future government decide to do things differently
and put the system back again.

It will always be around. As soon as the subsidy drops the cost of your
average conversion will fall by a similar amount.

You can't guarantee that.


Just like the cost of conversions *rose* by a similar amount as soon as
the subsidy was implemented

Yes. But dunno about 'similar' amount though.
ACCC must have been asleep when that happened.

They(ACCC) obviously on a self induced coma right now.


Taht 'cos they buy cars stupidly converted to LPG or stupidly convert
their
existing cars without doing proper homework.
Then end up spending a fortune on repairs due to LPG fuel use. That being
on
top of the savings from driving on LPG.
An installer usually will convert any vehicle you take to them, 'cos it's
lot of money for them.
So, they won't tell you that you car ain't worth LPG conversion

I don't know where you get this crap from,

From being in Automotive industry.
And you're right. I do get lot of 'crap' from there.
Like what I'm getting right now.

but any car that runs on petrol will run equally well on lpg.

That's absolute 100% rubbish.
Either you're an LPG installer or you're being duped by a one.

You can win that argument in theory, 'cos any car can be made to withstand
LPG fuel by making
considerable modifications.
But, the million dollar quesiton is that, "Is it worth it economically"?
The answer is, "It is not worth the trouble for many cars".

The only argument is whether or not a conversion is cost effective, and
that can only be answered by the individual owner.

I've seen Hyundai Excels converted to lpg that were very profitable
ventures,

I would love to see that Hyuandai Excel LPG car that profited from that
conversion.
'cos I haven't been able to find a one yet.
Can you direct me to the owner of that car?

and I've seen Ford Falcons and Holden Commodores that lost money.

Falcons Ok if you do it properly.
Commodores are a tricky business, depend on the model.
VLs, and before models ok. VS, VTs aren't a good choice for LPG conversions
unless you're ready to spend fair bit of money to modify it properly.

Personally, I wouldn't bother with LPG conversion on late model commodores.


Only if you've done your homework before buying a converted one or
converting a one you already have.
Some car motors will get stuffed up by LPG conversion, simply 'cos they
are
either unsuitable or the
conversion is done cheaply without modifying the internal engine
parts(and
external).

There isn't a car motor built in the last 20 years that isn't suitable for
lpg.

That means since 1994.
You are dead wrong about that.
You would be really silly to put LPG on Holden Barinas, Huandai Getz, Mazda
2 and 3, etc, etc.

But again, if you're arguing theoritically, you'll be the winner, but the
loser economically.


Used anything can sell next to nothing on ebay, specially LPG kits.
They aren't safe for average user and most installers won't touch them.

Rubbish

Fact.


Most installers won't touch used kits because (a) they lose their profit
margin in selling you a new kit, and (b) they won't warranty used
equipment they know nothing about (and I wouldn't either).

So, why is it 'rubbish' then? did you lose your plot?!


Somebody like me, sometime purchase them for peanuts and discard the bad
bits and keep the good bits to replace the worn out ones.
For example, I replaced my old worn out converter with a used one I
bought
off ebay. Installers usually don't like that.

Why would they? Why would they bother fucking around with a used one when
the most expensive *new* one is a couple hundred bucks of which they get a
slice of the price as profit?

Just a tiny slice man. Most of their earnings come from labour, not from the
friggin brand new parts.
I know that for a fact, 'cos I used to work for a one, and I was his friggin
bookkeeper for a very short period.


AFAIK, used hoses aren't allowed by law in many states, but there's
nothing
can be done about you from replacing old ones with better quality used
ones.

There is nothing that can be done to stop *you*, the owner* from using
used hoses, but a licensed gas fitter isn't going to use them if they're
not legal.

Correct, in theory.
But, I do know some of the small operators do use, used ones in acceptable
quality. )
Don't waste your time arguing about it with me,
We won't get anywhere. )


Automotive LPG industry needs some restructuring, obviously, not a kill.
Specially installers rorting it by not providing information to the
commuters, about certain cars, that ain't worth lpg conversion.

I don't know what you're on about here,

I think you do know, but you dont wanna talk about it.

and I don't think you do either.

I most certainly have some good idea what I'm talking about.


You can't just drive into any lpg installer with any old car and have it
converted.

Compliance is an Umbrella term.
States regulations govern what an owner or installer can/can't do.
And owner/installer bend the rules whereever they can.
You can convert 'any' old car, provided it fits in with the state reguations
of safety.
And there're many ways to do that when some cars don't seem to fit with
that.
Most of those issues are roadworthy related.

There needs to be a complianced kit to suit the particular car in question,
and the only way such kits become available is because there is a demand
for it.

I dunno where you get your information from. But these compliance plate laws
are
regulated by states.

Perhaps you might care to elaborate on what you specifically meant by a
"Compliance kit" to "suit a particular car"?!!!


So, if there exists a kit for a Toyota Corolla, it's because enough people
have requested them to be fitted for the kit makers to bother putting one
together.

I dunno how they do it in your area?
A particular compliance kit for each car model?!!!
What did you mean by a compliance kit?
I prefer to talk about conversion kits.
Conversion kits can be different for the same model as well.


I won't be surprised by many things, 'cos I've been in close contact with
automotive industry for enough long time.

In what capacity?

Technical capacity.
And sometime, due to my stupidity, management and bookkeeping capacity.


Anybody, who take off a properly converted(factory LPG) LPG system in car
they just bought would be ignorant and silly.
If the person believes it's no good for the motor, they can simply leave
it
and drive on petrol(if dual fuel).
But there's no solution if the person is paranoid about lpg explosions
and
leaks.
And BTW, removing and lpg system has to be done by a licensed installer.
It's unlikely average Joe would know how to do it safely.

The average joe who removes one would probably be unaware of that, or
couldn't give a rats if they were.

If you've seen what I've seen, you wouldn't say that.


And buying a badly installed lpg converted car is even sillier, 'cos the
damage is done already, in most cases.

The average Joe is unlikely to know if a car's been converted well, poorly
or otherwise.

Correct.
That's a good reason not to fiddle with a well known danger of fiddling with
LPG installations.


How so? Look at the facts.
The price jumped from 55c(which I was already whinging about) to 90c.
That's
60% price leap, happened over night.

Yep. And.....

And........what more do you want? Petrol price = LPG price?!!!


You wait and see.

Wait and see what exactly?

Petrol price = LPG price
The inevitable death of LPG cars, provided the LPG prices comparatively keep
rising the way it is.


They are closing the subsidy scheme in few months. I ain't making it up.

It's old news.

Yeah, right.

The end of the subsidy has been known for a long time. So what?

How long have you known of it?


No private owner would bother to own an LPG car without the subsidy and
the
rising LPG price(comparing to petrol and diesel).

You don't understand the effects the subsidies have had on the industry.

All giving owners a subsidy to fit gas kits did was to increase the price
of the kit by the amount of the subsidy grant. For example, when the 2
thousand buck grant was offered about 5 years ago, all that happened was
the price of every conversion rose by 2 thousand bucks overnight. For gas
installers it was the best thing since sliced bread, as the cost of the
conversion was still effectively the same for the car owner, and the gas
converter got an extra 2 large in his pocket for nothing.

Are you saying that's the way exactly that happened?!!!
Basically, the kit builders or the intallers jacked the price up double,
while obviously ripping off the
commuters and government of their money?
And the good government sat on their fat arse and did nothing about it?!!!
And ACCC voluntarily took self inducing coma injectiongs during that
time?!!!


When the subsidy is eventually removed nothing will change as far as the
car owner is concerned. He'll still be out of pocket by the same amount.

You're making promises about things you have no control of and perhaps no
idea about.


For me, my Patrol on LPG is close to useless already.

It must be seriously fucked up if running it on gas is more expensive than
running it on petrol. Even at today's prices.

Nope. The government's fucked up decision to allow the price hike to fuck up
people like me,
which in return may fuck up the car as well.

And I never said it's more expensive, at least not yet, but worthless.
By the time I put an EFI dongle and tune it properly, I won't bother with
LPG.
By that time Petrol price = LPG price.
So, sit tight and enjoy it.


I'm seriously considering putting on an EFI dongle to improve mileage,
even
though I love the good old age carby technology.

"Carby" and "technology" aren't generally two words I would use in the
same sentence

Man, if you wanna debate semantics, there are other NGs. )

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Touche!

--
“Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea- massive,
difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind
boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it”

 

[Noddy]

On 14/02/14 1:50 PM, news13 wrote:

> Although noodle wont accept them, others will.

I'm just going to sit back and watch now Tezza. You and this bloke
trying to argue the merrits of LPG should make for hours of entertainment



--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

 

[Kennedy]

On 12/02/2014 7:22 PM, Damian wrote:

What is the real reason for LPG price to jump from 55c to 90c?!
Is it likely to go back to 55c again?
Doesn't this massive price hike destroy industries and make it worthless to
own an LPG converted vehicle?

Damian - please don't cross post to unconnected irrelevant news groups.


I've seen more than one good NG turn to crap permanently because of
cross posting.

Cheers

 

[Damian]

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:bm4k00FjgphU1@mid.individual.net...

Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
jonz <Dunno@why.i.bother> wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote

What is the real reason for LPG price to jump from 55c to 90c?!

The govt started to tax it.

Don't you think it's wrong?

Nope. No reason why it should be taxed like petrol is.

There's a big industry that relies on cheaper LPG prices.

Not a good enough reason to not tax it like petrol is.

There is a MUCH bigger industry that uses petrol and diesel.

Is it likely to go back to 55c again?

Hard to say. We will see some effect of the boom in coal seam gas
and fracking.

It's not easy to produce that gas, without raping the land around it.

Bullshit.

It's a technology that needs to take carefully.

Nope.

Do yerself a favour,

Don’t need to.

and check out the long term result

That is fine.

of a short term gain. (financial)

There is a lot more than short term financial gain.

The almighty dollar rules again. capitalism eh?....aint it wonderful?.

Yep. A decent mix of capitalism and socialism

There is no such animal.(" a decent mixture").

Bullshit.

More bullshit.

It's just a mixture, if there's any socialism in it at all.

There always is, even in HongKong
before it was handed back to China.

There was no "handing back". Chinese told the Queen to pack up her shit and
piss off.
And she did just that, regardless of Hong Kong chinese wanting them to stay.
Liz and her gang never had any socialism, anywhere.
Collecting the shit from the super rich in a classful society, ain't
socialism.
It's just a bullshit word, invented to bullshit us.

leaves all the other alternatives for dead.

What other alternatives?!!

Communism,

It's in the book. No place on the planet had it.

> anarchy,

That's no friggin alternative. It's just a lifestyle some choose.

>no socialism at all,

That is called capitalism, not an another alternative. We already have it.

>unfettered capitalism.

There ain't such animal either. Capitalism is what it is. There ain't any
fettering of it.
No chance in hell.

> etc etc etc.

What etc, etc?
A 'kingship' like the Liz and her royalty?

Doesn't this massive price hike destroy industries

No, there are no industries that dependant on the LPG price.

What are you talkin about, man?
Alternative fuel Automotive industry alone relies on LPG price.

It’s a fart in the bath.

Certainly some operations that are marginal will go bust
but that happens with any change in their circumstances

There ain't anything marginal about LPG based industries.

I said OPERATIONS, not industrys.

and make it worthless to own an LPG converted vehicle?

No, it is still substantially cheaper than petrol.

No, it's not.

Corse it is.

The conversion cost, wear and tear on engine, etc, etc makes it
worthless.

Bullshit. The taxis still use it.

 

[Damian]

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:bm4jp1Fjf8fU1@mid.individual.net...

Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote

What is the real reason for LPG price to jump from 55c to 90c?!

The govt started to tax it.

Don't you think it's wrong?

Nope. No reason why it should be taxed like petrol is.

There's a big industry that relies on cheaper LPG prices.

Not a good enough reason to not tax it like petrol is.

There is a MUCH bigger industry that uses petrol and diesel.

Is it likely to go back to 55c again?

Hard to say. We will see some effect of the boom in coal seam gas and
fracking.

It's not easy to produce that gas, without raping the land around it.

Bullshit.

A known fact,

Bullshit.

More bullshit.

unless you live underground.

More bullshit.

bullshit upon bullshit

It's a technology that needs to take carefully.

Nope

Yep.

Nope.

Yep.

Doesn't this massive price hike destroy industries

No, there are no industries that dependant on the LPG price.

What are you talkin about, man?
Alternative fuel Automotive industry alone relies on LPG price.

It’s a fart in the bath.

That 'cos you don't have much of the colon left.

Any 2 year old could leave that for dead.

You wouldn't know, You've never seen a one.

Certainly some operations that are marginal will go bust
but that happens with any change in their circumstances

There ain't anything marginal about LPG based industries.

I said OPERATIONS, not industrys.

Define OPERATIONS

Try a dictionary.

You didn't have a clue what you meant, did you?!

and make it worthless to own an LPG converted vehicle?

No, it is still substantially cheaper than petrol.

No, it's not.

Corse it is.

The conversion cost, wear and tear on engine, etc, etc makes it
worthless.

Bullshit. The taxis still use it.

Bullshit.

Fact.

The bastards are dying to raise the fare.
If they don't that for a good reason.

35c price hike means far less money for them.

Irrelevant to whether it is still better value than petrol for them.\

Bullshit. It's direclty relevant. It is still better value for them, but
still their
expenses increase.

They will start whinging and hit the road patrols to allow raising the
fare.

And will get an obscene gesture in their general
direction from the govt when they try that.

Bullshit, it's the state government that has jurisdiction, so when or if
they go on a taxi rally,
they would've to give them something. They may get non-fuel benefits.

If they don't that 'cos they get it other ways via bureaucracy.

Pure fantasy.

Pure fact.

The fact they haven't done that already may mean they may have been
compensated other ways.

Pure fantasy.

Pure fact.

 

[Xeno Lith]

On 14/02/2014 5:47 PM, Damian wrote:

<snip>

There always is, even in HongKong
before it was handed back to China.

There was no "handing back". Chinese told the Queen to pack up her shit and
piss off.
The Chinese did not do it that way!

China needed Hong Kong as a port of trade and still uses it for that
purpose. It's still also one of the larger financial centres of the
world. Were China to stuff up Hong Kong, there are many other places
willing to take over its role. China is not that stupid.

The UK "owned" Hong Kong (island) into "perpetuity" but only held a 99
year lease on the New Territories. Not sure if an automatic right of
renewal existed but, without the New Territories, Hong Kong might not
have been viable.

> And she did just that, regardless of Hong Kong chinese wanting them to stay.

The deals were being done way before the lease expired. For those who
didn't like the future of Hong Kong, there were alternatives. Many
migrated to Australia, Canada, New Zealand and other countries. Even
now, a lot of the real estate investment in Australia is due to wealthy
Hong Kong businessmen wishing to invest their wealth outside China.

Liz and her gang never had any socialism, anywhere.
Collecting the shit from the super rich in a classful society, ain't
socialism.
It's just a bullshit word, invented to bullshit us.

snip

--

Xeno

 

[Rod Speed]

"Damian" <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:ldke72$dv9$1@dont-email.me...

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:bm4k00FjgphU1@mid.individual.net...
Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
jonz <Dunno@why.i.bother> wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote

What is the real reason for LPG price to jump from 55c to 90c?!

The govt started to tax it.

Don't you think it's wrong?

Nope. No reason why it should be taxed like petrol is.

There's a big industry that relies on cheaper LPG prices.

Not a good enough reason to not tax it like petrol is.

There is a MUCH bigger industry that uses petrol and diesel.

Is it likely to go back to 55c again?

Hard to say. We will see some effect of the boom in coal seam gas
and fracking.

It's not easy to produce that gas, without raping the land around
it.

Bullshit.

It's a technology that needs to take carefully.

Nope.

Do yerself a favour,

Don’t need to.

and check out the long term result

That is fine.

of a short term gain. (financial)

There is a lot more than short term financial gain.

The almighty dollar rules again. capitalism eh?....aint it wonderful?.

Yep. A decent mix of capitalism and socialism

There is no such animal.(" a decent mixture").

Bullshit.

More bullshit.


It's just a mixture, if there's any socialism in it at all.

There always is, even in HongKong
before it was handed back to China.

There was no "handing back".

Wrong, as always.

> Chinese told the Queen to pack up her shit and piss off.

Wrong, as always.

HongKong always was a limited time thing and when
that time came to an end, it was handed back to China.

Nothing whatever to do with Liz.

And she did just that, regardless of Hong Kong chinese wanting them to
stay.

Nothing whatever to do with Liz.

> Liz and her gang never had any socialism, anywhere.

Even sillier with the postal service, and public education,
and even with HongKong, some very limited welfare for
the elderly particularly.

Collecting the shit from the super rich in a classful society, ain't
socialism.

But the postal service, public education,
welfare, the national health service all is.

> It's just a bullshit word, invented to bullshit us.

Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you have
never ever had a fucking clue about anything at all, ever.

leaves all the other alternatives for dead.

What other alternatives?!!

Communism,

It's in the book. No place on the planet had it.

Whatever you call it, it is an alternative
to a mix of capitalism and socialism.

anarchy,

That's no friggin alternative. It's just a lifestyle some choose.

Wrong, as always.

no socialism at all,

That is called capitalism,

Wrong, as always.

> not an another alternative. We already have it.

Wrong, as always.

unfettered capitalism.

There ain't such animal either.

Wrong, as always.

> Capitalism is what it is. There ain't any fettering of it.

Bullshit. Even someone as stupid as you should noticed
the ban on monopolys and lying to consumers etc.

> No chance in hell.

Even sillier.

etc etc etc.

What etc, etc?
A 'kingship' like the Liz and her royalty?

Absolute monarchy, yep.

Doesn't this massive price hike destroy industries

No, there are no industries that dependant on the LPG price.

What are you talkin about, man?
Alternative fuel Automotive industry alone relies on LPG price.

It’s a fart in the bath.

Certainly some operations that are marginal will go bust
but that happens with any change in their circumstances

There ain't anything marginal about LPG based industries.

I said OPERATIONS, not industrys.

and make it worthless to own an LPG converted vehicle?

No, it is still substantially cheaper than petrol.

No, it's not.

Corse it is.

The conversion cost, wear and tear on engine, etc, etc makes it
worthless.

Bullshit. The taxis still use it.

 

[Rod Speed]

Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote
just the puerile shit it always ends up with when its got
done like a fucking dinner, as it always is.