Lithium batteries, not worth it...

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 15:42:13 +0100, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 16/04/2023 15:21, Jim Jackson wrote:
On 2023-04-16, Ed P <esp@snet.xxx> wrote:
On 4/16/2023 6:51 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 15/04/2023 16:36, Ed P wrote:
Lithium will become passe in a few years as other materials do a
better job.
The one thing the laws of chemistry have to say, is that nothing exists
or can exist that will do a better job than lithium.

Which means the whole battery powered world is a bust. It cant be done.
Parts, yes, All? No.


That sounds dumb to me. Silver is a better conductor of electricity but
yet we use copper. \"Better job\" means cost efficiency. sustainability,
and adequate performance.

You are wasting your time - nuance doesn\'t work with him. Like a lot of
people here, reason goes out of the window as soon as certain buttons
are pushed.

You are wasting your time - nuance doesn\'t work with him. Like a lot of
people here, reason goes out of the window as soon as certain buttons
are pushed.

The fact that Lithium occupies a position in the periodic table that
makes it THE best metal to use in battery chemistry, in terms of energy
density, makes no sense to someone who has no concept of inorganic
electrochemistry, yet will gaily parrot the received unwisdom of the
great renewable fraud.

Anyone can repeat a lie. Understanding the current \'truth\' of science
and applying it to every day problems is far far harder.

You sound like the folk in the past who thought you\'d die if you travelled more than 20mph, and feared the motor car.

 

[rbowman]

On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 11:34:52 +0100, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 04:21:46 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 15:01:37 +0100, Commander Kinsey wrote:

Until they start taxing it through the roof like alcohol and tobacco
and petrol.

23% in this county for recreational marijuana. 20% state excise tax and
a 3% local tax. A medical card cuts that down to 4%. The local
initiative approved the 3% on recreational, rejected 3% on medical.

There were other factors but the state is trying to decide what to do
with a 2.6 billion dollar budget surplus.

https://apnews.com/article/politics-greg-gianforte-montana-taxes-
d0c2aed6fd0591ee4be345f368cb0540

In the UK, alcohol tax is 900%.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glQjCKAI4gA

 

[Peeler]

On 16 Apr 2023 19:27:54 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

To a point...

https://www.bluelabeldiving.com/hypoxia-and-hyperoxia/

Is this still about lithium batteries, you abnormal endlessly gossiping
senile bigmouth and braggart?

--
And another \"cool\" line from the resident bigmouthed all-American superhero:
\"I was working on the roof when the cat came up the ladder to see what I
was doing. Cats do not do well going down aluminum ladders.\"
MID: <k9roshF2rjdU1@mid.individual.net>

 

[Peeler]

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 04:51:21 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin\'s latest trollshit unread>

--
R Souls addressing the trolling senile Australian cretin:
\"Your opinions are unwelcome and worthless. Now fuck off.\"
MID: <urs8jh59laqeeb0seg1erij61m383reog5@4ax.com>

 

[Peeler]

On 16 Apr 2023 19:16:06 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

You could dump the entire 93,628 square miles in eastern Montana and only
the prairie dogs would notice.

Another \"cool\" line from the resident pathological \"cool\" bigmouth,
lowbrowwoman herself! <BG>

--
And yet another idiotic \"cool\" line, this time about the UK, from the
resident bigmouthed all-American superhero:
\"You could dump the entire 93,628 square miles in eastern Montana and only
the prairie dogs would notice.\"
MID: <ka2vrlF6c5uU1@mid.individual.net>

 

[Peeler]

On 16 Apr 2023 20:06:15 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glQjCKAI4gA

Only ONE link this time, you endlessly blathering senile gossip? Come on,
you can do much better than that, you pathological bigmouth! <BG>

--
Another one of the resident senile bigmouth\'s idiotic \"cool\" lines:
\"If you\'re an ax murderer don\'t leave souvenir photos on your phone.\"
\"MID: <k7ssc7F8mt9U3@mid.individual.net>\"

 

[Peeler]

On 16 Apr 2023 19:59:05 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

That\'s why pickups have sliding rear windows -- toss the empties in the
bed. All those fancy crew cabs and so forth messes up a perfect design.
Even with a power slider, it\'s a long toss.

COOL, you all-American superhero!

--
Yet another thrilling account from the resident senile superhero\'s senile
life:
\"I went to a Driveby Truckers concert at a local venue and they made me
leave my knife in the car. Never went back. Come to think of it the Truckers
had a Black Lives Matter banner. Never bought any of their music again
either.\"
MID: <k84ip9Fesb1U1@mid.individual.net>

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 21:06:15 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 11:34:52 +0100, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 04:21:46 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 15:01:37 +0100, Commander Kinsey wrote:

Until they start taxing it through the roof like alcohol and tobacco
and petrol.

23% in this county for recreational marijuana. 20% state excise tax and
a 3% local tax. A medical card cuts that down to 4%. The local
initiative approved the 3% on recreational, rejected 3% on medical.

There were other factors but the state is trying to decide what to do
with a 2.6 billion dollar budget surplus.

https://apnews.com/article/politics-greg-gianforte-montana-taxes-
d0c2aed6fd0591ee4be345f368cb0540

In the UK, alcohol tax is 900%.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glQjCKAI4gA

I make my own too, 21%, which is illegal.

 

[Joe Gwinn]

On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 16:52:39 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> writes:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 13:00:43 +0100, \"Commander Kinsey\"
CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 11:58:59 +0100, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 16/04/2023 01:40, Ed P wrote:

The current global average concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere is 421
ppm as of May 2022. This is an increase of 50% since the start of the
Industrial Revolution, up from 280 ppm during the 10,000 years prior to
the mid-18th century. The increase is due to human activity.

And you know this because? That period also coincides with the end of
the little ice age, and we know that mildly warming oceans outgass lots
of CO2 until the organic life catches up with it

The last part is key. Organic life uses what\'s there. Things auto-level. Climate change won\'t kill us. Wasting money on stopping it will.

Plants will adapt to using more CO2 to grow faster. Farmers and ag
colleges will breed them to do that.

Up to a very small point, consider:

1) There aren\'t enough plants to absorb excess CO2 at the rate
required to match the current (or future) excess emissions.

2) As mentioned, plants need CO2 to live, but give them too much
and the vital nutrients they produce, become depleted. These
include iron, zinc, and vitamin C.
3) Overall, FACE experiments show decreases in whole plant water
use of 5-20% under elevated CO2. This in turn can have consequences
for the hydrological cycle of entire ecosystems, with soil moisture
levels and runoff both increasing under elevated CO2 (Leakey et al. 2009).
[ed. increasing the potential for flooding, landslides, et alia]
4) Crop concentrations of nutritionally important minerals including
calcium, magnesium and phosphorus may also be decreased under
elevated CO2 (Loladze 2002; Taub & Wang 2008)
5) With elevated CO2, protein concentrations in grains of wheat,
rice and barley, and in potato tubers decreased by 10 to 15 percent
in one study.



https://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/effects-of-rising-atmospheric-concentrations-of-carbon-13254108/

https://news.climate.columbia.edu/2022/01/27/how-climate-change-will-affect-plants/

Plants are limited by multiple things. If one studies the effect of
varying any non-limiting input alone, there will be little effect.
Which does not bear on the result if one increases one element
worldwide. Wherever that element is the limit will increase. Areas
where it is not the limiting element will not change. The total will
thus increase.

Joe Gwinn

 

[Scott Lurndal]

John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> writes:

On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 18:24:11 +0100, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk
wrote:

On 16/04/2023 16:38, Scott Lurndal wrote:


Leaving aside carbon-neutral synthetic fuels made from agricultural waste
and atomospheric carbon capture, which are perfectly viable alternatives:

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/11/17/electric-helicopter-makes-historic-flight/
https://www.engadget.com/californias-first-electric-short-hop-ferry-launches-in-2024-210137422.html


and we think a 200 mile range in an Electric car is good 24 miles at
approx 60mph with a pilot and a \"load\" of 23kg.

24 miles is now \"epic\" and \"historic.\"

It certainly is historic, given it was the first electrically powered
mannned helicopter flight.

\"epic\" seems to be an appellation applied by you personally. I wouldn\'t
consider it \"epic\", or did the article linked above.

 

[Scott Lurndal]

John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> writes:

On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 16:52:39 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> writes:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 13:00:43 +0100, \"Commander Kinsey\"
CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 11:58:59 +0100, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 16/04/2023 01:40, Ed P wrote:

The current global average concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere is 421
ppm as of May 2022. This is an increase of 50% since the start of the
Industrial Revolution, up from 280 ppm during the 10,000 years prior to
the mid-18th century. The increase is due to human activity.

And you know this because? That period also coincides with the end of
the little ice age, and we know that mildly warming oceans outgass lots
of CO2 until the organic life catches up with it

The last part is key. Organic life uses what\'s there. Things auto-level. Climate change won\'t kill us. Wasting money on stopping it will.

Plants will adapt to using more CO2 to grow faster. Farmers and ag
colleges will breed them to do that.

Up to a very small point, consider:

1) There aren\'t enough plants to absorb excess CO2 at the rate
required to match the current (or future) excess emissions.

2) As mentioned, plants need CO2 to live, but give them too much
and the vital nutrients they produce, become depleted. These
include iron, zinc, and vitamin C.
3) Overall, FACE experiments show decreases in whole plant water
use of 5-20% under elevated CO2. This in turn can have consequences
for the hydrological cycle of entire ecosystems, with soil moisture
levels and runoff both increasing under elevated CO2 (Leakey et al. 2009).
[ed. increasing the potential for flooding, landslides, et alia]
4) Crop concentrations of nutritionally important minerals including
calcium, magnesium and phosphorus may also be decreased under
elevated CO2 (Loladze 2002; Taub & Wang 2008)
5) With elevated CO2, protein concentrations in grains of wheat,
rice and barley, and in potato tubers decreased by 10 to 15 percent
in one study.



https://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/effects-of-rising-atmospheric-concentrations-of-carbon-13254108/

https://news.climate.columbia.edu/2022/01/27/how-climate-change-will-affect-plants/

100% downside. Sounds improbable to me.

Where did you get \"100% downside?\" Specious rhetoric?

 

[rbowman]

On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 20:41:05 +0100, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 20:16:06 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 13:14:29 GMT, Cindy Hamilton wrote:

On 2023-04-16, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

far flung outbacks of the UK

I love your dry, British sense of humor.

http://www.undertheraedar.com/2011/01/exactly-how-big-is-united-
kingdom.html

You could dump the entire 93,628 square miles in eastern Montana and
only the prairie dogs would notice.

I\'m sure the Merkins would go a hunting the Brits, it would be a game.

Please start with Rishi Sunak.

To quote you \'It\'s you lot that let them in.\'

 

[rbowman]

On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 19:25:18 +0100, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 18:50:16 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 16:14:45 +0100, Commander Kinsey wrote:

Again, thanks for pointing this out. Just as the airplane and

Airplane, ROTFPMSL! Do you also say airdrome? Airfoil?

As a matter of fact... My brother said aeroplane

Then he had more brains than you.

Yes he was the rocket scientist in the family. He learned part of his
trade from the best in the business -- the Germans at Redstone Arsenal.

 

[rbowman]

On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 18:36:48 +0100, alan_m wrote:

The miles per gallon figures are shown on the screen. 44mpg and from
1980 when they removed all seats, except the drivers seat, removed the
spare wheel, removed carpets, taped up any cracks in the bodywork etc.
etc. to obtain the mileage figures.

My Toyota Yaris sometimes gets 41 mpg with no prep and a 1500 cc ICE with
a full load of camping gear, tools, snowshoes, spare boots, and so forth.
That falls off quite a bit a 80 mph.

 

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 20:45:57 +0100, \"Commander Kinsey\"
<CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 16:22:26 +0100, John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 15:01:37 +0100, \"Commander Kinsey\"
CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 23:18:43 +0100, John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 07:37:37 +0100, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk
wrote:

On 14/04/2023 04:57, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Are you greenies nuts?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/385430139122
Nearly 3 grand for a battery with the same capacity of two deep cycle
lead acid batteries costing £150?

With a brand name of Growatt obviously aimed at the home cannabis farm -
they can afford it.

Growing weed was profitable when it was illegal. Now, anybody can do
it.

It\'s illegal in the UK, sort of. Under 10 plants they assume it\'s for personal use and don\'t give a shit.

We have weird laws where it\'s ok to take drugs but not to sell them. A local woman was let off completely when they couldn\'t prove her bag full of drugs was for sale.

Wholesale prices in California dropped from $1200 to $100 per pound.

Until they start taxing it through the roof like alcohol and tobacco and petrol.

Not everybody pays the taxes, but it\'s still tough going with so much
competition.

You didn\'t seem to respond to what I said.

Hold your breath. Or cry. Or something.

 

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 20:46:36 +0100, \"Commander Kinsey\"
<CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 17:00:23 +0100, John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 13:14:29 GMT, Cindy Hamilton
hamilton@invalid.com> wrote:

On 2023-04-16, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

far flung outbacks of the UK

I love your dry, British sense of humor.

http://www.undertheraedar.com/2011/01/exactly-how-big-is-united-kingdom.html

A place seems bigger when the roads are so slow.

The roads are as fast as you want them to be. The UK road network is the world\'s biggest race track.

Point taken.
Point taken.
Point taken.
Point taken.

 

[alan_m]

On 16/04/2023 20:46, Commander Kinsey wrote:

The roads are as fast as you want them to be.  The UK road network is
the world\'s biggest race track.

And the M25 can be the UKs biggest parking lot at times

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 4:29:20 AM UTC+10, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 17:19:31 +0100, Paul <nos...@needed.invalid> wrote:
On 4/14/2023 12:04 PM, Ed P wrote:
On 4/14/2023 10:49 AM, Frank wrote:
On 4/13/2023 11:57 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Are you greenies nuts?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/385430139122
Nearly 3 grand for a battery with the same capacity of two deep cycle lead acid batteries costing £150?

As it is EV\'s with lithium batteries weigh about about a half ton more than ICE vehicles. Would be interesting to see what they would weigh with a lead battery.

One problem with price is demand. Currently lead is a commodity and most of it is available as recycle from depleted batteries. Even if price were equivalent there is probably more cost in manufacture of lithium batteries needing additional materials and more complexity of manufacture.

lithium batteries are just a passing phase of technology.

The future will be either graphene, aluminum or silicone anode.

https://www.technologyreview.com/2023/01/04/1066141/whats-next-for-batteries/
This year could be a breakout year for one alternative: lithium iron phosphate (LFP), a low-cost cathode material sometimes used for lithium-ion batteries.

There have been a number of alternative types proposed
and tried in the lab, but they don\'t necessarily have the
cycle count. Maybe a battery with a silver electrode, would
give 1000 cycles. Whereas the Lithium ones are around 5000 cycles.

Each battery type has a spider diagram.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/356607419/figure/fig4/AS:1095492909961218@1638197271676/Spider-chart-for-different-technologies-Lithium-ion-batteries.png

Some artists are better than others.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Sarvar-Nengroo/publication/330752778/figure/fig2/AS:721033036304385@1548919080625/Spider-chart-for-the-different-battery-chemistries.ppm

The spider diagram notes the characteristics in graphical form. It\'s because
of the spider diagram, and having to \"optimize six parameters at the same time\",
that we\'re not buried in battery alternatives. Yes, there is battery hype,
to encourage venture capital investment. But generally the things are
announced, before their spider diagram is production ready.

Salt water batteries and Quantum batteries are far superior once they get into production. Lithium is nearing the end of it\'s life cycle.

Most fraudulent schemes claim that their product will be far superior when it gets into production. Since the whole point is to get you to give them money so that they can put into production, when the actually plan to run off with money, its not a good idea to take them seriously.

> For now I stick with lead acid for anything large. Lithium is for torches..

You are stuck with defective understanding and bad choices. Dim wankers frequently are.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[alan_m]

On 17/04/2023 02:28, rbowman wrote:

On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 18:36:48 +0100, alan_m wrote:

The miles per gallon figures are shown on the screen. 44mpg and from
1980 when they removed all seats, except the drivers seat, removed the
spare wheel, removed carpets, taped up any cracks in the bodywork etc.
etc. to obtain the mileage figures.

My Toyota Yaris sometimes gets 41 mpg with no prep and a 1500 cc ICE with
a full load of camping gear, tools, snowshoes, spare boots, and so forth.
That falls off quite a bit a 80 mph.

So by loading it up you get 20 mpg less than the manufacturers stated mpg.

The Commander seems to be claiming that loading up a car with extra
weight (in his case with extra batteries) doesn\'t make much difference
in performance.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

 

[Peeler]

On 17 Apr 2023 01:02:23 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

I\'m sure the Merkins would go a hunting the Brits, it would be a game.

Please start with Rishi Sunak.

To quote you \'It\'s you lot that let them in.\'

Will this idiotic \"conversation\" never end, you troll-feeding senile
shitheads?

--
More of the senile gossip\'s absolutely idiotic senile blather:
\"I stopped for breakfast at a diner in Virginia when the state didn\'t do
DST. I remarked on the time difference and the crusty old waitress said
\'We keep God\'s time in Virginia.\'

I also lived in Ft. Wayne for a while.\"

MID: <t0tjfa$6r5$1@dont-email.me>