Li-Polymer Batteries

[rickman]

mike wrote on 10/17/2017 11:03 PM:

On 10/17/2017 2:19 PM, rickman wrote:
mike wrote on 10/17/2017 3:07 PM:
On 10/17/2017 3:33 AM, rickman wrote:
Jan Panteltje wrote on 10/17/2017 6:26 AM:
On a sunny day (Tue, 17 Oct 2017 06:18:09 -0400) it happened rickman
gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <os4lda$4hi$1@dont-email.me>:

Jan Panteltje wrote on 10/17/2017 5:47 AM:
On a sunny day (Tue, 17 Oct 2017 05:21:15 -0400) it happened rickman
gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <os4i2d$cgp$1@dont-email.me>:

Jan Panteltje wrote on 10/17/2017 4:13 AM:
On a sunny day (Tue, 17 Oct 2017 01:30:45 -0400) it happened
rickman
gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <os44i7$p0f$1@dont-email.me>:

rickman wrote on 10/16/2017 10:16 AM:
I'm looking at buying these batteries for a test project and
they ask the
buyer to choose between battery types 357090 & 357095. I can't
find any
references anywhere that describe what these model numbers
mean. Anyone know?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/201761814378

It has build in chips to protect it, very unlikely to cath fire if
you use a decent charger chip.

"Very unlikely" is fine when it is sitting on your desk. If that
happens
you get an appropriate fire extinguisher and put it out or at least
let it
burn and put out anything else it has ignited. If you are in a
vehicle
where you have no means of escaping and no way to deal with the
fire, you
are SOL. "Very unlikely" isn't good enough for me.

Na, wrap your nuclear plants in ..


Also, I'm not convinced all of these units have protection. The
two model
numbers would seem to indicate one is 5 mm longer than the other.
I expect
this is exactly the size of the protection board, so one might have
protection and the other might not. It is not all that unusual for
an eBay
listing to contain errors and complete lies^H^H^H^H^H alternate
facts.

True, I only looked at the link, you can see the protection board,
I have some like that, but only 1000 mAh, marked 'Varta'.
From China nevertheless.

I have some without protection board too...more RC type single cell
lipos.
And then I have the 3 cell ones, 30C ... no protection either.
Danger all around me,
Oh and the box with LiIon super powerfull forgot how many C.

Gotta run

Think about it, you find lipos everywhere, even in those blutooth
earplugs /
headsets for your cellphone, and happily plug it in your ear and
wear it on your head.
Cars have gasoline, bad things can happen...
There is a mad dog president in control of the button, I would worry
about that first.
Probabilities.

I seem to recall a number of professional designs from companies who
have
much reputation to loose which burst into flames.

Was it not Liion?



So no, I don't have tons of confidence in Lithium batteries to the
extent
that I want to strap one on my kayak with no physical protection
against the
boat catching on fire.

Well just roll.

I seem to recall Lithium doesn't do so well in contact with water.

Interesting to see how far people will go to ignore the total system
and focus on one ill-conceived component.
The devil is in the details, and we have few.

Not sure what you mean about ignoring the "system"?


Do the math.
How much energy is released in a battery fire?

A lithium batter will release a *lot* more heat than just what is stored
in the battery. Even discharged lithium batteries have to be stored
safely.
Yes, you understand the problem...but what's the number?
I suspect you can't contain a fire in any container you're willing
to paddle around in a kayak. Depends on that number.

42

If you insulate it, how hot will it get inside, since you've
guaranteed thermal runaway?

Don't care, the concern is to prevent the China syndrome where the
battery burns its case and melts though my boat. High density
polyethylene won't stand up to a lithium fire, or any other type of fire
for that matter.


How much energy is released as heat if you discharge the battery
at maximum current allowed by your current limit strategy?
What does that do to the cell temperature if you insulate it?

The unit won't be drawing the maximum current. There will be protection
to prevent this. The load will be relatively light compared to the C
value. I'm interested in a long discharge time.


How often are you gonna use this kayak device?
Can you not throw it overboard if it catches fire?

Not very easily. It will be securely affixed to the bow of a 17 foot
kayak with me in the middle. My arms aren't 8 foot long.

Ok then that's something you can change in your "system approach".

slight modification of the requirements can make a huge difference in the
"system" solution.

Yes, changing the problem can make the solution much easier to find. So
what change are you proposing?

The way you talk, you sound like you are familiar with formal project
management. What drives the requirements in the systems you work on?

I submit that the release mechanism is far more likely
to jamb than the battery is to catch fire. ;-)

A great reason to prevent a fire from becoming catastrophic.


Given your paranoia, might a NiMH or Alkaline AA cell pack
be more cost effective and weigh less and take up less space
than your protection vault and fire suppression apparatus and floating
burn unit to treat the injured? Maybe you should have two burn
units just in case one of the doctors has a heart attack.

That would be a good idea, but NiMH cells don't have the density. But
that might not be a significant issue.
Looking at the overall system requirements can reveal if this is a viable
option. It does address your major fear. It's all about the weighting
of constraints. Was it the Rolling Stones???You can't always get what you
want..
But the circuits to use NiMH in
a device like this aren't so common.
Do you care what's common? You building more than one?
If you can accommodate the voltage variation of lithium, you
can probably figger out how to substitute Lithium.

I recall someone's tag line saying engineering is about making what you need
with the materials you can get. In this case I am not looking to design a
board and solder chips. I wish to use commonly available and low cost board
level components to fabricate this system. So yes, I care what's available.
What's common usually means low cost. So I care about that as well. So
far I have not seen a single board that will serve as a power bank using a
single NiMH cell the way I can with a lithium cell.

I don't see where you are making any effort to help. You seem to want to
nitpick rather than assist. I was hoping someone here had been down this
road and could help with recommendation of what to use or what to avoid.

--

Rick C

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms,
on the centerline of totality since 1998

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Tue, 17 Oct 2017 16:52:07 -0400) it happened rickman
<gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <os5qho$b9f$1@dont-email.me>:

Jan Panteltje wrote on 10/17/2017 11:31 AM:
On a sunny day (Tue, 17 Oct 2017 06:33:15 -0400) it happened rickman
gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <os4m9d$971$1@dont-email.me>:

I seem to recall a number of professional designs from companies who have
much reputation to loose which burst into flames.

Was it not Liion?



So no, I don't have tons of confidence in Lithium batteries to the extent
that I want to strap one on my kayak with no physical protection against the
boat catching on fire.

Well just roll.

I seem to recall Lithium doesn't do so well in contact with water.

Have not had any Li fires, so don't know, but youtube has the answer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRKK6pliejs

So what can you do in a kayak? water proof bottle:
http://panteltje.com/pub/a_seaworthy_GPS_radiation_counter_IMG_4447.JPG
Remember I hold the Usenet patent on that

There are so many things wrong with this I have to assume you are joking
with me.

No, not joking.

Lithium is highly reactive with water. It is stored in oil or under Argon
to exclude water. Take that seriously.

If you are worried about it, why not take an old lipo and throw it in the water?
Just spend the 4 $ or so for a test.

When I charge liion and lipo I always have safety procedures in place,
basically it is 2 to 3 meters from the door to the tiled terras, and I have HUGE pliers to grab a burning
one and put it outside, and a hose to stop any collateral fires it may have caused.

But some _advice_
IF you are so WORRIED why not use Lifepo4?
I have some lifepo4 cells in AAA form (about 3V per cell, in one keyboard, and in my temperature meter),
and those are safe, and have hardly any self discharge.
Lifpo4 high power is used in ships, and if you type lifepo4 in the ebay search window you find many variants and sellers.
It is MUCH safer than lipo or liion.

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Tue, 17 Oct 2017 16:53:07 -0400) it happened rickman
<gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <os5qjl$b9f$2@dont-email.me>:

Jan Panteltje wrote on 10/17/2017 11:31 AM:
On a sunny day (Tue, 17 Oct 2017 06:33:15 -0400) it happened rickman
gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <os4m9d$971$1@dont-email.me>:

I seem to recall a number of professional designs from companies who have
much reputation to loose which burst into flames.

Was it not Liion?



So no, I don't have tons of confidence in Lithium batteries to the extent
that I want to strap one on my kayak with no physical protection against the
boat catching on fire.

Well just roll.

I seem to recall Lithium doesn't do so well in contact with water.

Have not had any Li fires, so don't know, but youtube has the answer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRKK6pliejs

So what can you do in a kayak? water proof bottle:
http://panteltje.com/pub/a_seaworthy_GPS_radiation_counter_IMG_4447.JPG
Remember I hold the Usenet patent on that

Oh yeah, Lithium sometimes fools the experts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Bravo

I know, it is the intro on my website:
http://panteltje.com/

See also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Romeo

 

[rickman]

Jan Panteltje wrote on 10/18/2017 3:12 AM:

On a sunny day (Tue, 17 Oct 2017 16:52:07 -0400) it happened rickman
gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <os5qho$b9f$1@dont-email.me>:

Jan Panteltje wrote on 10/17/2017 11:31 AM:
On a sunny day (Tue, 17 Oct 2017 06:33:15 -0400) it happened rickman
gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <os4m9d$971$1@dont-email.me>:

I seem to recall a number of professional designs from companies who have
much reputation to loose which burst into flames.

Was it not Liion?



So no, I don't have tons of confidence in Lithium batteries to the extent
that I want to strap one on my kayak with no physical protection against the
boat catching on fire.

Well just roll.

I seem to recall Lithium doesn't do so well in contact with water.

Have not had any Li fires, so don't know, but youtube has the answer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRKK6pliejs

So what can you do in a kayak? water proof bottle:
http://panteltje.com/pub/a_seaworthy_GPS_radiation_counter_IMG_4447.JPG
Remember I hold the Usenet patent on that

There are so many things wrong with this I have to assume you are joking
with me.

No, not joking.

For starters I'm not going to use a glass container in an outdoor, rugged
environment. It would not be long before it bumped against something hard
enough that the glass broke and parts are everywhere, not to mention glass
shards. Then there is the problem of the seal not lasting. The one in your
photo looks like the *rubber* is about shot. Rubber is a terrible material
to use unless it can be kept from the sun and air or specially treated.

Lithium is highly reactive with water. It is stored in oil or under Argon
to exclude water. Take that seriously.

If you are worried about it, why not take an old lipo and throw it in the water?
Just spend the 4 $ or so for a test.

Again, I think you are joking with me. Tossing a sealed battery in the
water would do nothing to test the results when it is on fire and hits the
water. As long as the lithium is sealed inside it would be fine. Otherwise
spilling a drink on your cell phone would result in a fire.

When I charge liion and lipo I always have safety procedures in place,
basically it is 2 to 3 meters from the door to the tiled terras, and I have HUGE pliers to grab a burning
one and put it outside, and a hose to stop any collateral fires it may have caused.

I've given that some thought. The charging would not be on the boat unless
from a solar cell. But that would not be at a high rate. The solar cell of
a size that would fit in the case only put out around 150 to 200 mA in
bright sunlight and this may be an exaggeration by the vendors. I have one
on order I will be testing. I wouldn't expect 200 mA into a 3000 mAHr cell
to be stressing it at all. Otherwise it will be charged off the boat.

But some _advice_
IF you are so WORRIED why not use Lifepo4?

Same reasons I'm not using NiMH.

I have some lifepo4 cells in AAA form (about 3V per cell, in one keyboard, and in my temperature meter),
and those are safe, and have hardly any self discharge.
Lifpo4 high power is used in ships, and if you type lifepo4 in the ebay search window you find many variants and sellers.

I find much lower capacity other than the 26650 size cell which is too
large. The flat form factor of the polymer cells is very handy.


> It is MUCH safer than lipo or liion.

I wonder why I can't find anything similar to the charger, step up boards to
make one of these cells into a power bank? The one board I do find many
sellers of is the protection board.

--

Rick C

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms,
on the centerline of totality since 1998

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Wed, 18 Oct 2017 04:58:54 -0400) it happened rickman
<gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <os754g$n30$1@dont-email.me>:

So what can you do in a kayak? water proof bottle:
http://panteltje.com/pub/a_seaworthy_GPS_radiation_counter_IMG_4447.JPG
Remember I hold the Usenet patent on that

There are so many things wrong with this I have to assume you are joking
with me.

No, not joking.

For starters I'm not going to use a glass container in an outdoor, rugged
environment. It would not be long before it bumped against something hard
enough that the glass broke and parts are everywhere, not to mention glass
shards.

OK, I dont't know what you are doing, sure glass can break.
But you would not be throwing it around againt rocks..

Then there is the problem of the seal not lasting. The one in your
photo looks like the *rubber* is about shot. Rubber is a terrible material
to use unless it can be kept from the sun and air or specially treated.

This is a very old bottle, new ones are cheap and last >10 years with al sorts of things conserved in it.

Lithium is highly reactive with water. It is stored in oil or under Argon
to exclude water. Take that seriously.

If you are worried about it, why not take an old lipo and throw it in the water?
Just spend the 4 $ or so for a test.

Again, I think you are joking with me. Tossing a sealed battery in the
water would do nothing to test the results when it is on fire and hits the
water. As long as the lithium is sealed inside it would be fine. Otherwise
spilling a drink on your cell phone would result in a fire.

OK, use your imagination now for a moment and do that short or overload thing you mention, and THEN toss it in the water,
or while it is in the water, else the discursion becomes endless.
Put a camera on it and upload the result to youtube.
That is real, the rest is mainly paranoia.
Again, do you bring walky talkies? Those use lipo too, at least my baofeng has, would not put it in the water tough.
You need a waterproof bag or something.

When I charge liion and lipo I always have safety procedures in place,
basically it is 2 to 3 meters from the door to the tiled terras, and I have HUGE pliers to grab a burning
one and put it outside, and a hose to stop any collateral fires it may have caused.

I've given that some thought. The charging would not be on the boat unless
from a solar cell. But that would not be at a high rate. The solar cell of
a size that would fit in the case only put out around 150 to 200 mA in
bright sunlight and this may be an exaggeration by the vendors. I have one
on order I will be testing. I wouldn't expect 200 mA into a 3000 mAHr cell
to be stressing it at all. Otherwise it will be charged off the boat.


But some _advice_
IF you are so WORRIED why not use Lifepo4?

Same reasons I'm not using NiMH.

'Same' means less capacity? lifepo4 has a lot more capacity that NiMh, is more reliable too in my experience (real experience),
has much lower self discharge (THAT is important in the boonies, take out your radio, camera, batteries empty...)

I have some lifepo4 cells in AAA form (about 3V per cell, in one keyboard, and in my temperature meter),
and those are safe, and have hardly any self discharge.
Lifpo4 high power is used in ships, and if you type lifepo4 in the ebay search window you find many variants and sellers.

I find much lower capacity other than the 26650 size cell which is too
large. The flat form factor of the polymer cells is very handy.

Too large with or without all the external safety wrap you were going to put on the other batteries?

It is MUCH safer than lipo or liion.

I wonder why I can't find anything similar to the charger, step up boards to
make one of these cells into a power bank? The one board I do find many
sellers of is the protection board.

Specify size, voltage, mAh, form factor..
Ebay is full of boost - and buck converters for about 5$.

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Tue, 17 Oct 2017 06:33:15 -0400) it happened rickman
<gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <os4m9d$971$1@dont-email.me>:

I seem to recall a number of professional designs from companies who have
much reputation to loose which burst into flames.

Was it not Liion?



So no, I don't have tons of confidence in Lithium batteries to the extent
that I want to strap one on my kayak with no physical protection against the
boat catching on fire.

Well just roll.

PS
There was just an interesting talk on the local ham net repeater 'daily minutes'
some of the fire brigade over here went to the Tesla factory to get instructions how to extinguish burning electric cars.
The answer (from Tesla) was:
'Use Water, lost of it, at least two firecars full'.
So 'roll' was the right answer.
An other suggestion that struck me was:
'Put a smoke alarm above your charge setup'.

 

[rickman]

Jan Panteltje wrote on 10/18/2017 1:49 PM:

On a sunny day (Tue, 17 Oct 2017 06:33:15 -0400) it happened rickman
gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <os4m9d$971$1@dont-email.me>:

I seem to recall a number of professional designs from companies who have
much reputation to loose which burst into flames.

Was it not Liion?



So no, I don't have tons of confidence in Lithium batteries to the extent
that I want to strap one on my kayak with no physical protection against the
boat catching on fire.

Well just roll.

PS
There was just an interesting talk on the local ham net repeater 'daily minutes'
some of the fire brigade over here went to the Tesla factory to get instructions how to extinguish burning electric cars.
The answer (from Tesla) was:
'Use Water, lost of it, at least two firecars full'.
So 'roll' was the right answer.
An other suggestion that struck me was:
'Put a smoke alarm above your charge setup'.

"Roll" is not the right answer. First, not every kayker knows how to roll.
We all soon learn how to do the half roll adequately, but getting out of
your boat is only a last gasp not at all unlike bailing from an airplane.
It's not something you do until all other options are exhausted.

The bottom line is people are getting all wound up about my idea of doing
something to contain a battery fire rather than offering any useful advice.
I've actually found some very interesting hose intended to be a cable or
hose jacket which will tolerate the heat of a Lithium battery fire for some
five minutes or more. Looks like I can close the two ends and have a fairly
effective fire container without much cost, weight or size.

The other current option is to use a mat of silica or ceramic fibers (like
fiberglass, but tolerates higher temperatures. This would form an
insulating blanket that can be shaped into a pocket with one end closed
after inserting the battery. Again, this will be lightweight, cost
effective and small enough to put in the case I plan to use.

So where is the problem?

What I was hoping for was info on how well the various boards to use with
the battery would work, but obviously no one here has bought any of them.

I will have parts in a couple more weeks. I will need to play with the LEDs
to see just how much power they use and how many LEDs I'll need to be bright
enough. There are very bright white LEDs but nav light need to be red and
green. Seems the best way to go is to use RGB LEDs which will allow them to
be any color desired. But they are not as bright as white LEDs so I will
test them and see how many are needed.

--

Rick C

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms,
on the centerline of totality since 1998

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Wed, 18 Oct 2017 16:42:12 -0400) it happened rickman
<gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <os8eb5$p05$1@dont-email.me>:

The bottom line is people are getting all wound up about my idea of doing
something to contain a battery fire rather than offering any useful advice.
I've actually found some very interesting hose intended to be a cable or
hose jacket which will tolerate the heat of a Lithium battery fire for some
five minutes or more. Looks like I can close the two ends and have a fairly
effective fire container without much cost, weight or size.

The other current option is to use a mat of silica or ceramic fibers (like
fiberglass, but tolerates higher temperatures. This would form an
insulating blanket that can be shaped into a pocket with one end closed
after inserting the battery. Again, this will be lightweight, cost
effective and small enough to put in the case I plan to use.

So where is the problem?

What I was hoping for was info on how well the various boards to use with
the battery would work, but obviously no one here has bought any of them.

I will have parts in a couple more weeks. I will need to play with the LEDs
to see just how much power they use and how many LEDs I'll need to be bright
enough. There are very bright white LEDs but nav light need to be red and
green. Seems the best way to go is to use RGB LEDs which will allow them to
be any color desired. But they are not as bright as white LEDs so I will
test them and see how many are needed.

I don't know, seems you are just playing, no idea where you are, but over here nav light for boats need to be certified.
There are whole discussions about that in the local boating group (in Dutch), including links to sellers.
They even have meetings and test the various things on sale.
I know about 3 color LED top lights for sailboats, do not know what you would put on your kayak,
left-right would be very close together and very low, you do not get any range like that?
None at all with waves?

Anyways, 2 of those bottles like I showed, one left, one right,
or some other models,
drink content first, wine bottles do not leak, use cork.
Round liion may fit through bottle neck, 'recharge' often...

 

[rickman]

Jan Panteltje wrote on 10/19/2017 5:11 AM:

On a sunny day (Wed, 18 Oct 2017 16:42:12 -0400) it happened rickman
gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <os8eb5$p05$1@dont-email.me>:

The bottom line is people are getting all wound up about my idea of doing
something to contain a battery fire rather than offering any useful advice.
I've actually found some very interesting hose intended to be a cable or
hose jacket which will tolerate the heat of a Lithium battery fire for some
five minutes or more. Looks like I can close the two ends and have a fairly
effective fire container without much cost, weight or size.

The other current option is to use a mat of silica or ceramic fibers (like
fiberglass, but tolerates higher temperatures. This would form an
insulating blanket that can be shaped into a pocket with one end closed
after inserting the battery. Again, this will be lightweight, cost
effective and small enough to put in the case I plan to use.

So where is the problem?

What I was hoping for was info on how well the various boards to use with
the battery would work, but obviously no one here has bought any of them.

I will have parts in a couple more weeks. I will need to play with the LEDs
to see just how much power they use and how many LEDs I'll need to be bright
enough. There are very bright white LEDs but nav light need to be red and
green. Seems the best way to go is to use RGB LEDs which will allow them to
be any color desired. But they are not as bright as white LEDs so I will
test them and see how many are needed.

I don't know, seems you are just playing, no idea where you are, but over here nav light for boats need to be certified.
There are whole discussions about that in the local boating group (in Dutch), including links to sellers.
They even have meetings and test the various things on sale.
I know about 3 color LED top lights for sailboats, do not know what you would put on your kayak,
left-right would be very close together and very low, you do not get any range like that?
None at all with waves?

Lights are not really required for small paddled boats in the US other than
needing one you can shine when required to prevent a collision (a good
flashlight). Manually paddled boats are covered by regulations for
sailboats "under oars". Otherwise you can show red/green to the front 225°
and white to the rear 135°. The flashlights require that you be able to
shine the light which is problematic if you are having trouble. I plan to
use a waterproof remote control to be able to manage a red/green/white light
in the front and a white light in the rear. Mounting it all on a single
mast would be ideal, but kayaks seldom have masts.

Anyways, 2 of those bottles like I showed, one left, one right,
or some other models,
drink content first, wine bottles do not leak, use cork.
Round liion may fit through bottle neck, 'recharge' often...

Or use something that is more appropriate.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/332252729519

My only real concern with this is how well I can mount the LEDs to shine
through the clear part. Initially I ordered some all clear cases intended
to secure a cell phone, but one cracked in transit and the gasket on it
looked like crap. So I thought something a bit more robust was in order.

Glass will not be used, period. I don't know why you can't see the issue.
Imagine the rough handling such containers will have to sustain when they
aren't on the boat. It's not like a piece of lab equipment.

--

Rick C

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms,
on the centerline of totality since 1998

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Thu, 19 Oct 2017 10:53:25 -0400) it happened rickman
<gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <osae96$4i3$1@dont-email.me>:

Lights are not really required for small paddled boats in the US other than
needing one you can shine when required to prevent a collision (a good
flashlight). Manually paddled boats are covered by regulations for
sailboats "under oars". Otherwise you can show red/green to the front 225°
and white to the rear 135°. The flashlights require that you be able to
shine the light which is problematic if you are having trouble. I plan to
use a waterproof remote control to be able to manage a red/green/white light
in the front and a white light in the rear. Mounting it all on a single
mast would be ideal, but kayaks seldom have masts.


Anyways, 2 of those bottles like I showed, one left, one right,
or some other models,
drink content first, wine bottles do not leak, use cork.
Round liion may fit through bottle neck, 'recharge' often...

Or use something that is more appropriate.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/332252729519

My only real concern with this is how well I can mount the LEDs to shine
through the clear part. Initially I ordered some all clear cases intended
to secure a cell phone, but one cracked in transit and the gasket on it
looked like crap. So I thought something a bit more robust was in order.

Glass will not be used, period. I don't know why you can't see the issue.
Imagine the rough handling such containers will have to sustain when they
aren't on the boat. It's not like a piece of lab equipment.

OK, well there are also plastic bottles ;-)

But I was wondering if you could not make something with an existing 3 color sector light,
maybe fit the battery battery pack in it?
Those exists both with white LEDs and also with R, G, B LEDs like this:
http://www.cactusnav.com/nasa-supernova-combi-tricolour-anchor-light-p-12936.html
'Supernova lights do not have any national approvals'
The sailing guys here seem to like that one.

 

[rickman]

Jan Panteltje wrote on 10/19/2017 11:22 AM:

On a sunny day (Thu, 19 Oct 2017 10:53:25 -0400) it happened rickman
gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <osae96$4i3$1@dont-email.me>:

Lights are not really required for small paddled boats in the US other than
needing one you can shine when required to prevent a collision (a good
flashlight). Manually paddled boats are covered by regulations for
sailboats "under oars". Otherwise you can show red/green to the front 225°
and white to the rear 135°. The flashlights require that you be able to
shine the light which is problematic if you are having trouble. I plan to
use a waterproof remote control to be able to manage a red/green/white light
in the front and a white light in the rear. Mounting it all on a single
mast would be ideal, but kayaks seldom have masts.


Anyways, 2 of those bottles like I showed, one left, one right,
or some other models,
drink content first, wine bottles do not leak, use cork.
Round liion may fit through bottle neck, 'recharge' often...

Or use something that is more appropriate.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/332252729519

My only real concern with this is how well I can mount the LEDs to shine
through the clear part. Initially I ordered some all clear cases intended
to secure a cell phone, but one cracked in transit and the gasket on it
looked like crap. So I thought something a bit more robust was in order.

Glass will not be used, period. I don't know why you can't see the issue.
Imagine the rough handling such containers will have to sustain when they
aren't on the boat. It's not like a piece of lab equipment.

OK, well there are also plastic bottles ;-)

But I was wondering if you could not make something with an existing 3 color sector light,
maybe fit the battery battery pack in it?
Those exists both with white LEDs and also with R, G, B LEDs like this:
http://www.cactusnav.com/nasa-supernova-combi-tricolour-anchor-light-p-12936.html
'Supernova lights do not have any national approvals'
The sailing guys here seem to like that one.

I have yet to find much that would be appropriate for a small vessel like a
kayak. It has to be two parts unless you want the bright white light
shining in your eyes. One of the great things about kayaking at night is
getting light adapted and seeing things under starlight.

Here is something interesting for enclosing the battery.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/112506110668

It is way larger than what I need, but can be folded over I think. Folding
it twice it is small enough. They don't say what it is made of. One way to
find out. Thanks for discussing this. I don't think I would have found
this bag if I weren't talking to you. The bag will be much better than the
other two approaches I found. But then there is the question of how good
the bag will be. It's cheap enough I might just do the test you suggested.

--

Rick C

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms,
on the centerline of totality since 1998

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Thu, 19 Oct 2017 12:18:50 -0400) it happened rickman
<gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <osaj9b$cs3$1@dont-email.me>:

I have yet to find much that would be appropriate for a small vessel like a
kayak. It has to be two parts unless you want the bright white light
shining in your eyes. One of the great things about kayaking at night is
getting light adapted and seeing things under starlight.

Here is something interesting for enclosing the battery.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/112506110668

Yes, those bags are often recommended, maybe I should get some too, or not???
I keep the liion cells that I do not use in a plastic icecream box..:
http://panteltje.com/pub/liion_cells_storage_IMG_6338.JPG
the tape it to prevent cells moving and makeing a ciruit.

It is way larger than what I need, but can be folded over I think. Folding
it twice it is small enough. They don't say what it is made of. One way to
find out. Thanks for discussing this. I don't think I would have found
this bag if I weren't talking to you. The bag will be much better than the
other two approaches I found. But then there is the question of how good
the bag will be. It's cheap enough I might just do the test you suggested.

There was a video on youtube about it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEkewCjiDs0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnNId0mDnBo
YMMV

 

[rickman]

Jan Panteltje wrote on 10/19/2017 11:22 AM:

OK, well there are also plastic bottles ;-)

Once a friend needed to be able to hear the phone ring when she was outside
(think of phones connected together by wires, I know, absurd, but that's
what we used to use). I put a sonalert in a plastic mayonnaise jar (yes,
this was recent enough for food to come in plastic bottles) and she could
hear it all over the yard. She left it behind when she moved. It was under
the house in the crawlspace, so I don't know if it is still in use today
just because it's a PITA to disconnect, lol. Lightning has likely taken it
out by now.

--

Rick C

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms,
on the centerline of totality since 1998

 

[rickman]

Jan Panteltje wrote on 10/19/2017 12:47 PM:

On a sunny day (Thu, 19 Oct 2017 12:18:50 -0400) it happened rickman
gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <osaj9b$cs3$1@dont-email.me>:

I have yet to find much that would be appropriate for a small vessel like a
kayak. It has to be two parts unless you want the bright white light
shining in your eyes. One of the great things about kayaking at night is
getting light adapted and seeing things under starlight.

Here is something interesting for enclosing the battery.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/112506110668

Yes, those bags are often recommended, maybe I should get some too, or not???
I keep the liion cells that I do not use in a plastic icecream box..:
http://panteltje.com/pub/liion_cells_storage_IMG_6338.JPG
the tape it to prevent cells moving and makeing a ciruit.


It is way larger than what I need, but can be folded over I think. Folding
it twice it is small enough. They don't say what it is made of. One way to
find out. Thanks for discussing this. I don't think I would have found
this bag if I weren't talking to you. The bag will be much better than the
other two approaches I found. But then there is the question of how good
the bag will be. It's cheap enough I might just do the test you suggested.

There was a video on youtube about it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEkewCjiDs0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnNId0mDnBo
YMMV

Interesting. Both videos use a lot more battery than I will use and the bag
is barely closed. I would be essentially rolling the bag up and depending
on the size I use I would be folding the sides over before rolling. These
bags are not made of thick material. Much better would be this...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/171761074567

or this...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/192107744089

A meter of the hose is about $22 from Aliexpress. I used an eBay link
because you can't shorten Ali links the same way. The hose is silicone
coated fiberglass which is rated for some minutes at 1100 °F/600 °C which is
the alleged temperature of a Li-ion battery fire.

The blanket is only $8. It is ceramic fiber rated for higher temperatures
indefinitely. It would be enough material for at least three units. I plan
to make at least two. I believe I can make a pouch easily using thin gauge
wire.

--

Rick C

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms,
on the centerline of totality since 1998

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Thu, 19 Oct 2017 18:34:47 -0400) it happened rickman
<gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <osb9a9$v5o$1@dont-email.me>:

Interesting. Both videos use a lot more battery than I will use and the bag
is barely closed. I would be essentially rolling the bag up and depending
on the size I use I would be folding the sides over before rolling.

You have to leave some opening so the smoke can escape and the pressure can
be prevented to build up to a point where the bag tares.

These bags are not made of thick material. Much better would be this...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/171761074567

or this...

I wonder if that stuff absorbs moisture...

>https://www.ebay.com/itm/192107744089

Same.

A meter of the hose is about $22 from Aliexpress. I used an eBay link
because you can't shorten Ali links the same way. The hose is silicone
coated fiberglass which is rated for some minutes at 1100 °F/600 °C which is
the alleged temperature of a Li-ion battery fire.

The blanket is only $8. It is ceramic fiber rated for higher temperatures
indefinitely. It would be enough material for at least three units. I plan
to make at least two. I believe I can make a pouch easily using thin gauge
wire.

I still think you are over-designing a bit.

I like the flat plastic case for the lights you posted, IF it is really waterproof I would
not bother with too much 'fire protection' especially with those batteries with protection chip.
If it does catch fire, then overboard with it... ;-)


Other thing I was thinking is to make 2 'antennas' of carbon fiber rod or some flexible rod at the rear of the kayak with in the top red and green LEDs,
battery holder at the bottom, needs some screws on an attachment point.




0 0 --> LED
\ /
\ /
\ / carbon rod
\ /
[ ] [ ]
================= kayak

Could also be one thing with 2 antennas

Danger is it sticks in you eyes.

Experiment.
Let us know !

 

[rickman]

Jan Panteltje wrote on 10/20/2017 3:48 AM:

On a sunny day (Thu, 19 Oct 2017 18:34:47 -0400) it happened rickman
gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <osb9a9$v5o$1@dont-email.me>:

Interesting. Both videos use a lot more battery than I will use and the bag
is barely closed. I would be essentially rolling the bag up and depending
on the size I use I would be folding the sides over before rolling.

You have to leave some opening so the smoke can escape and the pressure can
be prevented to build up to a point where the bag tares.

Yes, but some opening is not the gaping holes in these bags. The other
video with a bunch of batteries in a latched and sealed ammo case is pretty
instructive. Before it broke the seal it actually dented the can with the
pressure. But like I said earlier, one cell of Lipo is not nearly as much
energy as the videos show.

If I could find similar products to the power bank boards that worked with
NiMH, I'd go that route. I believe they actually prefer NiCad in power
tools because of the high current. NiMH has too much internal impedance.
But this will only draw a couple hundred mA most likely, so it would be a
good fit. I would have to roll my own design for the whole thing.

These bags are not made of thick material. Much better would be this...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/171761074567

or this...

I wonder if that stuff absorbs moisture...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/192107744089

Same.

Not sure why you think it will wick moisture and why that is an issue. The
cell is sealed so some moisture won't hurt it. If it catches fire moisture
will only help dampen the temperature.

A meter of the hose is about $22 from Aliexpress. I used an eBay link
because you can't shorten Ali links the same way. The hose is silicone
coated fiberglass which is rated for some minutes at 1100 °F/600 °C which is
the alleged temperature of a Li-ion battery fire.

The blanket is only $8. It is ceramic fiber rated for higher temperatures
indefinitely. It would be enough material for at least three units. I plan
to make at least two. I believe I can make a pouch easily using thin gauge
wire.

I still think you are over-designing a bit.

Maybe. Many people take their cell phone out on a kayak as a rescue device.
It would suck if it caught fire and cause the boat to sink.


> I like the flat plastic case for the lights you posted, IF it is really waterproof I would

Yeah, I already bought one case designed for cell phones and they seem to
have a very poor seal material, hard and not terribly compliant. Being
water tight is essential. I've had a number of things ruined while kayaking
when they were supposed to be water tight, including handheld IP67 GPS devices.

not bother with too much 'fire protection' especially with those batteries with protection chip.
If it does catch fire, then overboard with it... ;-)

You keep not paying attention. There will be two of these at opposite ends
of a 17 foot kayak and the paddler in the middle. There's no way to release
it.

Other thing I was thinking is to make 2 'antennas' of carbon fiber rod or some flexible rod at the rear of the kayak with in the top red and green LEDs,
battery holder at the bottom, needs some screws on an attachment point.




0 0 --> LED
\ /
\ /
\ / carbon rod
\ /
[ ] [ ]
================= kayak

Could also be one thing with 2 antennas

Danger is it sticks in you eyes.

Experiment.
Let us know !

No need to experiment. Things sticking up on a kayak are not good. I'm not
sure why you would think there is any advantage to this anyhow.

Everything on a kayak wants to be low on the deck, unless you are flying a
flag. The red and green lights go on the front to make sure they are seen
at all times. They shine from dead ahead to 22.5 degrees past a
perpendicular line off each side. The person needs to not be in the way or
the light can be missed. They are mounted (along with the white light that
shines over the remaining 135 degrees) on the top of the mast of a sail boat
because it *has* a mast. On a kayak, a second unit is needed at the rear
for the white light. When "at anchor" an all around white light is
required. If you were to put the lights on a mast of some sort, they would
all be mounted in one unit, not separate units. But a tall thing is a very
poor idea for may reasons. Try kayaking sometime, you will learn quickly.

My idea is to use two identical units with something to tell each one which
is which (I'm thinking of a magnet operated switch perhaps or an internal
switch that you open the cover to set when you mount it on the boat). The
only difference is how the units respond to the remote. There are four
states - Off, Nav (red/green/white), anchor (all white) and emergency
(flashes SOS in Morse code with all lights white). The flashing lowers the
duty cycle and extends the duration of the battery. With 3000 mAHr it would
run for some 10 hours continuously, or twice or triple that when flashing.
But that is just an estimate. It helps in recovering the boat and/or the body.

--

Rick C

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms,
on the centerline of totality since 1998

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Fri, 20 Oct 2017 04:56:50 -0400) it happened rickman
<gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <oscdoi$iu3$1@dont-email.me>:

These bags are not made of thick material. Much better would be this...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/171761074567

or this...

I wonder if that stuff absorbs moisture...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/192107744089

Same.

Not sure why you think it will wick moisture and why that is an issue. The
cell is sealed so some moisture won't hurt it. If it catches fire moisture
will only help dampen the temperature.

So, you contradict yourself,
you had fear of water (for the cells ;-) ),
now you say they are dry.

Maybe. Many people take their cell phone out on a kayak as a rescue device.
It would suck if it caught fire and cause the boat to sink.

The solution is well known, called a PLB, EPIRB, the latest seems to be this:
http://oceansignal.com/products/plb1/

But I do not think you will be kayaking on the ocean or big water?
https://www.panbo.com/archives/2016/12/mcmurdo_smartfind_g8_ais_epirb_first_of_many_plbs_too_.html
lots of info there too.

Yeah, I already bought one case designed for cell phones and they seem to
have a very poor seal material, hard and not terribly compliant. Being
water tight is essential. I've had a number of things ruined while kayaking
when they were supposed to be water tight, including handheld IP67 GPS devices.


not bother with too much 'fire protection' especially with those batteries with protection chip.
If it does catch fire, then overboard with it... ;-)

You keep not paying attention.

Wow

There will be two of these at opposite ends
of a 17 foot kayak and the paddler in the middle. There's no way to release
it.

Easy to make a release system with some dyneema line.

Other thing I was thinking is to make 2 'antennas' of carbon fiber rod or some flexible rod at the rear of the kayak with in
the top red and green LEDs,
battery holder at the bottom, needs some screws on an attachment point.




0 0 --> LED
\ /
\ /
\ / carbon rod
\ /
[ ] [ ]
================= kayak

Could also be one thing with 2 antennas

Danger is it sticks in you eyes.

Experiment.
Let us know !

No need to experiment. Things sticking up on a kayak are not good. I'm not
sure why you would think there is any advantage to this anyhow.

Can view it from further away seems a good one to me.

Everything on a kayak wants to be low on the deck, unless you are flying a
flag. The red and green lights go on the front to make sure they are seen
at all times. They shine from dead ahead to 22.5 degrees past a
perpendicular line off each side. The person needs to not be in the way or
the light can be missed. They are mounted (along with the white light that
shines over the remaining 135 degrees) on the top of the mast of a sail boat
because it *has* a mast. On a kayak, a second unit is needed at the rear
for the white light. When "at anchor" an all around white light is
required. If you were to put the lights on a mast of some sort, they would
all be mounted in one unit, not separate units. But a tall thing is a very
poor idea for may reasons. Try kayaking sometime, you will learn quickly.

Actually I did, has been 50 years ago or so though.
But not at night.

My idea is to use two identical units with something to tell each one which
is which (I'm thinking of a magnet operated switch perhaps or an internal
switch that you open the cover to set when you mount it on the boat). The
only difference is how the units respond to the remote. There are four
states - Off, Nav (red/green/white), anchor (all white) and emergency
(flashes SOS in Morse code with all lights white). The flashing lowers the
duty cycle and extends the duration of the battery. With 3000 mAHr it would
run for some 10 hours continuously, or twice or triple that when flashing.
But that is just an estimate. It helps in recovering the boat and/or the body.

Well just build it, I really do not see the problem, few hours design work.
If you have the remote, add an eject button
(it would need a separate battery, but wait, why not eject automatically (spring latch)
when an IR optocoupler detects smoke or a sensor over-heating in the thing?
Now THERE is a design challenge.
You can add a phone home, fire crackers, sound alarm, and a speaker giving voice instructions to the crew(you) how to duck for cover.
You also need coffee maker, pizza oven, fridge, probably need a bigger battery than just 3 Ah.

How's that for paying attention?
Can you keep up?

--

Rick C

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms,
on the centerline of totality since 1998

Here a few days ago the sun was red from the bush fires in the south of Europe, wind from that direction, you could smell it too.
When the 100 % eclipse was here around 2000 IIRC even the flowers closed.. very strange.

 

[rickman]

Jan Panteltje wrote on 10/20/2017 5:38 AM:

On a sunny day (Fri, 20 Oct 2017 04:56:50 -0400) it happened rickman
gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <oscdoi$iu3$1@dont-email.me>:

These bags are not made of thick material. Much better would be this...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/171761074567

or this...

I wonder if that stuff absorbs moisture...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/192107744089

Same.

Not sure why you think it will wick moisture and why that is an issue. The
cell is sealed so some moisture won't hurt it. If it catches fire moisture
will only help dampen the temperature.

So, you contradict yourself,
you had fear of water (for the cells ;-) ),
now you say they are dry.

I guess you aren't reading any posts that aren't in reply to yours. I have
already been educated that Li-ion is not the same as elemental lithium.
Regardless, your sentence is not clear. My concern is making a dangerous
fire worse, but that doesn't happen getting a lithium ion cell wet.

Maybe. Many people take their cell phone out on a kayak as a rescue device.
It would suck if it caught fire and cause the boat to sink.

The solution is well known, called a PLB, EPIRB, the latest seems to be this:
http://oceansignal.com/products/plb1/

Why do you feel the need to educate me on things I already know about?
These are great devices, but it can still take time to reach you. In an
emergency time can be of the essence. The blinking light is a clear
distress signal helping to attract attention. Also, EPIRB and PLB aren't
nav lights.

But I do not think you will be kayaking on the ocean or big water?
https://www.panbo.com/archives/2016/12/mcmurdo_smartfind_g8_ais_epirb_first_of_many_plbs_too_.html
lots of info there too.


Yeah, I already bought one case designed for cell phones and they seem to
have a very poor seal material, hard and not terribly compliant. Being
water tight is essential. I've had a number of things ruined while kayaking
when they were supposed to be water tight, including handheld IP67 GPS devices.


not bother with too much 'fire protection' especially with those batteries with protection chip.
If it does catch fire, then overboard with it... ;-)

You keep not paying attention.

Wow

Wow???

There will be two of these at opposite ends
of a 17 foot kayak and the paddler in the middle. There's no way to release
it.

Easy to make a release system with some dyneema line.

You keep showing a lack of understanding of kayaks. Get a kayak, paddle it
for a few months and get back to me on how practical it is to have release
lines running the length of the boat. Also make sure you learn how to do a
self rescue.

Other thing I was thinking is to make 2 'antennas' of carbon fiber rod or some flexible rod at the rear of the kayak with in
the top red and green LEDs,
battery holder at the bottom, needs some screws on an attachment point.




0 0 --> LED
\ /
\ /
\ / carbon rod
\ /
[ ] [ ]
================= kayak

Could also be one thing with 2 antennas

Danger is it sticks in you eyes.

Experiment.
Let us know !

No need to experiment. Things sticking up on a kayak are not good. I'm not
sure why you would think there is any advantage to this anyhow.

Can view it from further away seems a good one to me.

The lights are to avoid a collision. My hand held light works just fine
when I turn it on. I want nav lights so I don't need to worry with the
flash light. They don't need to sacrifice practicality for visibility.
Visibility will be just fine on the deck.

Everything on a kayak wants to be low on the deck, unless you are flying a
flag. The red and green lights go on the front to make sure they are seen
at all times. They shine from dead ahead to 22.5 degrees past a
perpendicular line off each side. The person needs to not be in the way or
the light can be missed. They are mounted (along with the white light that
shines over the remaining 135 degrees) on the top of the mast of a sail boat
because it *has* a mast. On a kayak, a second unit is needed at the rear
for the white light. When "at anchor" an all around white light is
required. If you were to put the lights on a mast of some sort, they would
all be mounted in one unit, not separate units. But a tall thing is a very
poor idea for may reasons. Try kayaking sometime, you will learn quickly.

Actually I did, has been 50 years ago or so though.
But not at night.

White water or flat? Did you learn safety practices? Did you learn any
self rescues? The deck of a kayak is not a static place. Some styles of
rescue involve climbing over the back deck. No poles, etc. allowed.

My idea is to use two identical units with something to tell each one which
is which (I'm thinking of a magnet operated switch perhaps or an internal
switch that you open the cover to set when you mount it on the boat). The
only difference is how the units respond to the remote. There are four
states - Off, Nav (red/green/white), anchor (all white) and emergency
(flashes SOS in Morse code with all lights white). The flashing lowers the
duty cycle and extends the duration of the battery. With 3000 mAHr it would
run for some 10 hours continuously, or twice or triple that when flashing.
But that is just an estimate. It helps in recovering the boat and/or the body.

Well just build it, I really do not see the problem, few hours design work.
If you have the remote, add an eject button
(it would need a separate battery, but wait, why not eject automatically (spring latch)

The receiver and release don't need a battery?

when an IR optocoupler detects smoke or a sensor over-heating in the thing?
Now THERE is a design challenge.

Not so much a design challenge as a question of need. It needs to be safe,
there are more than one ways to skin a cat.

You can add a phone home, fire crackers, sound alarm, and a speaker giving voice instructions to the crew(you) how to duck for cover.
You also need coffee maker, pizza oven, fridge, probably need a bigger battery than just 3 Ah.

How's that for paying attention?
Can you keep up?

Great job!

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms,
on the centerline of totality since 1998

Here a few days ago the sun was red from the bush fires in the south of Europe, wind from that direction, you could smell it too.
When the 100 % eclipse was here around 2000 IIRC even the flowers closed.. very strange.

It was pretty cool but far too short. They should work on making them last
longer. Barely time to get one's cloths off and dance.

--

Rick C

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms,
on the centerline of totality since 1998

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Fri, 20 Oct 2017 12:47:16 -0400) it happened rickman
<gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <osd9ak$g1o$1@dont-email.me>:

The solution is well known, called a PLB, EPIRB, the latest seems to be this:
http://oceansignal.com/products/plb1/

Why do you feel the need to educate me on things I already know about?

Sigh,
note what it says about the battery.
You DO notice it has none of those protections you are on about?
There simply is no space for that.
It is simply a waterproof case, and the battery is OK.
Study other designs before taking of on a tangent.

 

[rickman]

Jan Panteltje wrote on 10/20/2017 1:00 PM:

On a sunny day (Fri, 20 Oct 2017 12:47:16 -0400) it happened rickman
gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <osd9ak$g1o$1@dont-email.me>:

The solution is well known, called a PLB, EPIRB, the latest seems to be this:
http://oceansignal.com/products/plb1/

Why do you feel the need to educate me on things I already know about?

Sigh,
note what it says about the battery.

If you want to say something, why not just say it?

You DO notice it has none of those protections you are on about?
There simply is no space for that.
It is simply a waterproof case, and the battery is OK.
Study other designs before taking of on a tangent.

They use a primary battery which is NOT Li-ion. It does contain elemental
lithium, but this type of cell has a lower risk of fire than most types of
lithium cells. But it is a primary type and is not rechargeable.

I do find it funny that you seem to think I am taking of on a tangent.

--

Rick C

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms,
on the centerline of totality since 1998