Just curious how far your Wi-Fi access point is from your de

[Arlen _G_ Holder]

On Fri, 25 Oct 2019 07:32:08 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote:

He won't post a data sheet for the gear he alleges is 802.11x WiFi,
because it ISN'T. At least not the NanoBeam M. I had to post the
data sheet and it clearly says it's a point-to-point Ethernet bridge,
not a WiFi extender. It does not say one word about supporting 802.11x
anything.

Hi trader_4,

This isn't our first rodeo with you trader_4, where you love to troll.

You play silly games like removing the experts from the newsgroup list,
and then you play your endless silly games where you expect me to teach you
802.11 WiFi when you can't even comprehend the simplest things about it
including lots of details which the experts kindly outlined rather well.

If you really wanted an answer, instead of just wanting to troll, you
wouldn't have removed the experts from the Newsgroup list who have better
social skills than I do when dealing with common worthless trolls like you.

The experts have already explained, numerous times in fact, the naming
conventions, which you've wholly ignored because you only want to troll.

I went to a lot of trouble to put the explanation into place below, so I
hope you appreciate the effort, as I did it for you, trader_4, and for the
public record, which will be archived 'permanently' at these sites:
<http://tinyurl.com/alt-internet-wireless>
<http://tinyurl.com/sci-electronics-repair>
<http://tinyurl.com/alt-home-repair>

Here is my summary of what "I do" using 802.11 Wi-Fi for this one device.

The "NanoBeam M2" on the left is what this discussion below is describing:
<https://i.postimg.cc/905nFgxX/nanobeamnanobridge.jpg>

It is the PowerBeam (aka PBE-M2-400) shown in many of my uploaded photos:
<https://i.postimg.cc/CLBXc080/antenna03.jpg>

It's also that spare PBE-M2-400 on the shelf at top right that I'm using:
<https://i.postimg.cc/XJChDCPr/spare-access-points.jpg>

Experts showed it also goes by the name of NanoBeam M2 (FCC ID SWX-NBM2HP):
<https://i.postimg.cc/0NYJn7mF/nanobridge-nanobeam.jpg>

These are the 802.11 WiFi settings I'm using right now for that PBE-M2-400:
<https://i.postimg.cc/Bv0wZbDh/pbe-m2-400-802-11-wifi-setting.jpg>

It works just fine, for me, as an 802.11 WiFi AP or 802.11 WiFi bridge:
<https://i.postimg.cc/Dzq9Bsjs/pb-m2-400-nanobeam.jpg>

Here it is as a working bridge between a new laptop & an 802.11 WiFi AP:
<https://i.postimg.cc/vT0Krpfc/laptop-nanobeam-horn.jpg>

Here it is as a bridge between an old laptop & an 802.11 WiFi access point:
<https://i.postimg.cc/Hs0NWSKr/laptopnanobeam.jpg>

Here it is illustrating adding an 802.11 WiFi AP to a dumb switch:
<https://i.postimg.cc/JhyCRT69/horn-to-switch.jpg>

Here it illustrating adding an 802.11 WiFi AP to an old WRT54G WiFi router:
<https://i.postimg.cc/25NdBZ7f/horn-to-router.jpg>

This is the PBE-M2-400 Quick Start Guide
<https://dl.ubnt.com/qsg/PBE-M2-400/PBE-M2-400_EN.html>

Nothing will work for you; but it works just fine for me, either as an
o 802.11 WiFi access point, or as an
o 802.11 WiFi bridge (bridging an RJ45 port to WiFi)

I'm sure if I enabled AirMax, I could use it for a long haul PtP too.
o Either sans 802.11 WiFi support (for AirOS versions 4.0 and above)
o Or with legacy 802.11 WiFi support (for AirOS versions 4.0 and below)
<https://i.postimg.cc/kg5LKkz9/pbe-m2-400-airmax-setting.jpg>

--
Usenet is a potluck where adults try to share value among other adults
(and whwere the common trolls infested this thread, something like 20:1)

 

[Trumpster]

On 10/26/19 5:51 AM, Arlen _G_ Holder wrote:

Hi trader_4,

This isn't our first rodeo with you trader_4, where you love to troll.

LOL

 

[Arlen _G_ Holder]

UPDATE:

While these devices all come with debugging tools, it's useful to let users
know that on Android (but unfortunately not on iOS), there are modern
powerful debugging tools that help you debug your WiFi signals:
<https://i.postimg.cc/BZrZpDyp/debug-apps.jpg>

For example, I just snapped these screenshots of one app in use today:
<https://i.postimg.cc/FRqR6DSq/android-wifi-analyzer.jpg>

If you know of any iOS apps that do the same, please let me know:
<<https://i.postimg.cc/0NYJn7mF/nanobridge-nanobeam.jpg>>

As it would be nice on the larger iPad screen if such iOS tools existed.
<https://i.postimg.cc/SK04C6zL/ubiquiti-bullet-M2-hp.jpg>

These Android free ad-free tools are useful to test temporary bridges:
<https://i.postimg.cc/vT0Krpfc/laptop-nanobeam-horn.jpg>

With and without the horns attached to the high-gain antennas:
<https://i.postimg.cc/Hs0NWSKr/laptopnanobeam.jpg>

Where it's your choice whether to use the horn alone or in combination with
the antenna, which turns the omni horn into a narrow beam WiFi extender:
<https://i.postimg.cc/D0vfqM3p/horns.jpg>

Which, depending on various factors could be miles of point-to-point range:
<https://i.postimg.cc/QMNv5FBC/typical-range-ptp.jpg>
(where, as Johann Beretta noted, that screenshot is with AirMax enabled)

Modern WiFi debugging apps are useful when you set up APs at home, where,
for example, you can instantly convert a dumb switch to a WiFi AP & then
test with your Android phone how strong the signal is around the house:
<https://i.postimg.cc/JhyCRT69/horn-to-switch.jpg>

Or, if you have a spare old router, debug the extension of its range:
<https://i.postimg.cc/25NdBZ7f/horn-to-router.jpg>
Given that laptops are notoriously anemic when it comes to WiFi range.

You can also debug when you add bridge a desktop without WiFi to WiFi
<https://i.postimg.cc/6QJqK6Cj/desktop02.jpg>

And you can see the difference in range on your phone, when you have both:
<https://i.postimg.cc/Gh22Sb2N/desktop.jpg>

Yes, there are already UNIX-like tools inherent in the router software:
<https://i.postimg.cc/yx4CgWYt/mikrotik-router-config.jpg>

But they only work for an individual transceiver (radio & router):
<https://i.postimg.cc/DfQJq437/mikrotikrouter.jpg>

And, they're different software for each transceiver brand:
<https://i.postimg.cc/Bv0wZbDh/pbe-m2-400-802-11-wifi-setting.jpg>

Where, unfortunately, iOS just doesn't have this modern app functionality:
<https://i.postimg.cc/25v3FT6S/debug-on-android.jpg>

In summary, when you set up these devices, your Android phone instantly
becomes a very useful modern WiFi testing tool, where if you know of any
iOS app functionality on the Apple App Store that does the same thing,
please let me know as I've looked in vain for years on end for such modern
app functionality to exist on my much larger screen iPads.
<https://i.postimg.cc/YqTk0q1T/ap.jpg>

--
Using mobile devices to their fullest functional capabilities every day!

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 26 Oct 2019 21:56:12 -0000 (UTC), Arlen _G_ Holder
<_arlen.george@halder.edu> wrote:

On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 01:24:18 -0700, Johann Beretta wrote:

Everything I'm hearing about 24 GHz has been positive. I don't doubt
that there will be some cases of interference, but with WISP gear (I
don't know what the cell sites are using) having a 2-5 mile range is a
hell of a lot better than the nearly unlimited range of 5 GHz.

UPDATE:

Decided to send this before PG&E shuts off the power, which is scheduled to
go off for a few days in an hour or so (as far as PG&E has explained it).
(California has 3rd-world power reliability at the top of 1st-world costs!)

I just spend the morning charging every rechargeable battery that I
could find in my house and car. I had no idea I had that many
batteries and chargers. Where did they call come from?

Given this thread is a public potluck of useful sharing, what I would love
is if Jeff and/or Johann could help shed a summary of light on the various
"options" that are available to mere homeowners, who have Ubiquiti radios.

Pass. I'm not a salesman and really don't care what users do with
their computers and equipment. I'm just the guy that makes them work,
or explains to them how they work so they can make them work without
my involvement. I also avoid recommending anything that I haven't
personally broken, errr... tested, because of the large number of
surprises I find, and lies in the data sheets. That means I don't
know anything about the various "options" available to those who don't
know what they want. See a salesman or system integrator for details
on those.

Unfortunately, I've played with everything you've mentioned, so you'll
get the benefits of my wisdom and sarcasm.

For example, we haven't covered the free mobile device available debuggers:
https://i.postimg.cc/FRqR6DSq/android-wifi-analyzer.jpg

Kinda looks like a variation on the original (and still best) Wi-Fi
Analyzer Android app:
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.farproc.wifi.analyzer&hl=en_US>

Where, as far as I know, there's nothing like these tools on iOS (sadly):
https://i.postimg.cc/25v3FT6S/debug-on-android.jpg
(I wish such modern app functionality existed on iOS, so if anyone out
there knows iOS better than I do, please let me know where to get it).

In the words of the late great Steve Jobs, "You don't need to know".

Even on the router software itself, we covered some things that are of
general interest to users, but, for example, we didn't mention AirSelect:
https://i.postimg.cc/kg5LKkz9/pbe-m2-400-airmax-setting.jpg

What is Air Select?
<https://community.ui.com/questions/What-is-Air-Select/ab1949f3-8f39-42ac-8821-df5dcb2283a1>
It's a variation on having the wireless access point change channel in
a futile effort to find one that is empty. The client radios will all
follow the channel change without dropping the connection. Other
manufacturers WAP's and routers have the same feature. I always leave
it disabled because there are a small number of weird client radios
that fail to follow the channel change, and end up associated with a
totally different WAP or router on a different SSID. Leaving it off
has almost totally eliminated the "can't connect" phone calls.

And, we didn't dig into details of the versatile use of wireless options:
o Station
o Access Point
o AP-Repeater
https://i.postimg.cc/htQ469sQ/pbe-m2-400-ap-station.jpg

Station means "client bridge".
Access point means "wireless access point", "multipoint wireless
bridge", "wireless router with the WAN port disconnected", or some
other conglomeration of impressive sounding buzzwords.
AP repeater means "interference and congestion generator with the
added bonus of cutting maximum throughput in half".

Nor did we distinguish between the various network options, for example:
o Bridge
o Router
o SOHO Router
https://i.postimg.cc/gcBWpxnV/pbe-m2-400-bridge-router.jpg

Bridging is what ALL wi-fi devices do. It means they work on Layer 2
of the TCP/IP stack and use MAC addresses to switch packets to the
correct destination.
Router is Layer 3 of the TCP/IP stack. It adds IP addresses.
SOHO Router means "Small Office, Home Office router". That's a
commodity router with all the features and functions needed to provide
business class performance and reliability removed to keep the price
low.

Personally, I don't know them well enough to summarize each option above,
but maybe the experts here can write a quick one-line summary for each so
that everyone benefits in this purposefully helpful Usenet sharing potluck.

I only share with those who can pass a credit check.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Arlen _G_ Holder]

On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 01:24:18 -0700, Johann Beretta wrote:

Everything I'm hearing about 24 GHz has been positive. I don't doubt
that there will be some cases of interference, but with WISP gear (I
don't know what the cell sites are using) having a 2-5 mile range is a
hell of a lot better than the nearly unlimited range of 5 GHz.

UPDATE:

Decided to send this before PG&E shuts off the power, which is scheduled to
go off for a few days in an hour or so (as far as PG&E has explained it).
(California has 3rd-world power reliability at the top of 1st-world costs!)

Given this thread is a public potluck of useful sharing, what I would love
is if Jeff and/or Johann could help shed a summary of light on the various
"options" that are available to mere homeowners, who have Ubiquiti radios.

For example, we haven't covered the free mobile device available debuggers:
<https://i.postimg.cc/FRqR6DSq/android-wifi-analyzer.jpg>

Where, as far as I know, there's nothing like these tools on iOS (sadly):
<https://i.postimg.cc/25v3FT6S/debug-on-android.jpg>
(I wish such modern app functionality existed on iOS, so if anyone out
there knows iOS better than I do, please let me know where to get it).


Even on the router software itself, we covered some things that are of
general interest to users, but, for example, we didn't mention AirSelect:
<https://i.postimg.cc/kg5LKkz9/pbe-m2-400-airmax-setting.jpg>

And, we didn't dig into details of the versatile use of wireless options:
o Station
o Access Point
o AP-Repeater
<https://i.postimg.cc/htQ469sQ/pbe-m2-400-ap-station.jpg>

Nor did we distinguish between the various network options, for example:
o Bridge
o Router
o SOHO Router
<https://i.postimg.cc/gcBWpxnV/pbe-m2-400-bridge-router.jpg>

Personally, I don't know them well enough to summarize each option above,
but maybe the experts here can write a quick one-line summary for each so
that everyone benefits in this purposefully helpful Usenet sharing potluck.

--
Usenet is a wonderful place to share common items of technical interest.

 

[Arlen _G_ Holder]

On Sat, 26 Oct 2019 15:41:08 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Decided to send this before PG&E shuts off the power, which is scheduled to
go off for a few days in an hour or so (as far as PG&E has explained it).
(California has 3rd-world power reliability at the top of 1st-world costs!)

I just spend the morning charging every rechargeable battery that I
could find in my house and car. I had no idea I had that many
batteries and chargers. Where did they call come from?

Hi Jeff,

I know what you mean about getting ready for the PG&E outage today!

Up here, we all have generators, because our power goes off on average once
a month for a day or two each time (I could email you the PG&E-supplied
accurate spreadsheet of just the last 30 sustained power outages, for
example, which I provided to the CPUC to show how PG&E provides unreliable
power at top-tier prices).

Unfortunately, the Santa Cruz Costco is out of those great gas cans!
<https://i.postimg.cc/26qmJCpz/costco-gas-cans.jpg>

Luckily, at Costco in Santa Cruz by 17 & 1, the batteries are currently on
sale as are the flashlights (and BR30 LED bulbs for a dollar a bulb:
<https://i.postimg.cc/T1d8xxFL/costco-br30-led-sales-price.jpg?

When those 750 lumens 15K life hours BR30 ceiling bulbs are $2.50 each
<https://i.postimg.cc/KjRNBsgp/costco-br30-led-normal-price.jpg>

Where I always have to get the 2,700 degrees for the wife, and the 5,000
degree BR30 bulbs for me.
<https://i.postimg.cc/WzCdK5Yy/costco-br30-side-by-side.jpg>

But where I then can't mix & match in the house, since they're different:
<https://i.postimg.cc/1XGzCy68/costco-br30-color-at-night.jpg>

Cost of LED Bulbs = $11.94 (plus CA sales tax of $8.32)
which, of course, is imputed on the original price, but which accounts for
a whoppingly huge 70% of the actual sales price at the register)
<https://i.postimg.cc/kMcwZKcg/costco-led-bulb-receipt.jpg>

BTW, I measured the $6 3-pound cooked chicken since I was stocking up
<https://i.postimg.cc/k5JpkFHJ/costco-chicken-at-the-start.jpg>
where I separated the hot gristle and weighted it separately:
<https://i.postimg.cc/LsG8yXyV/costco-chicken-gristle-separated.jpg>
From the hot meat with no bones and none of the sugar/salt solution:
<https://i.postimg.cc/wBR6sz6R/costco-chicken-meat-separated.jpg>
Where the gristle was about 1-3/4 pounds of the advertised 3 pounds
<https://i.postimg.cc/W1FR57xQ/costco-chicken-gristle-weight.jpg>
And the meat turned out to be just under 3 pounds of the 3 pound weight
<https://i.postimg.cc/JnKdry9N/costco-chicken-meat-weight.jpg>

Given this thread is a public potluck of useful sharing, what I would love
is if Jeff and/or Johann could help shed a summary of light on the various
"options" that are available to mere homeowners, who have Ubiquiti radios.

Pass. I'm not a salesman and really don't care what users do with
their computers and equipment. I'm just the guy that makes them work,
or explains to them how they work so they can make them work without
my involvement.

Fair enough.

I like to explain things, to people who care to learn, and I love even more
being able to do stuff that people don't normally do (such as what these
radios allow for).

I admit I'm terrible at dealing with the trolls though, as it's
inconceivable to me that these people have zero purposefully helpful intent
in everything they do.

I also avoid recommending anything that I haven't
personally broken, errr... tested, because of the large number of
surprises I find, and lies in the data sheets.

Yup. I understand. I still remember you wrote the best description on all
of Usenet for the lies that router sales pitches spew, particularly about
the "power" figures, where that's where I learned only the FCC knows for
sure.

That means I don't
know anything about the various "options" available to those who don't
know what they want. See a salesman or system integrator for details
on those.

Unfortunately, I've played with everything you've mentioned, so you'll
get the benefits of my wisdom and sarcasm.

Understood. And accepted.

There are so many options to these radios that I don't even know all the
things they can do for us, where I mostly use them for three things:
1. Point to multipoint (instantly adding an access point to "an RJ45")
2. Point to multipoint (instantly bridging Ethernet to WiFi networks)
3. Point to point (for longer LOS hauls, where mine is 6 miles only)

But there's a LOT more we can do with these radios (e.g., they're routers
too, and they are repeaters also, etc.).

For example, we haven't covered the free mobile device available debuggers:
https://i.postimg.cc/FRqR6DSq/android-wifi-analyzer.jpg

Kinda looks like a variation on the original (and still best) Wi-Fi
Analyzer Android app:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.farproc.wifi.analyzer&hl=en_US

Yup. You and I went over these apps in gory detail a few years ago.

Where I'm glad you care about your credibility, as I do, and where you
listed the unique name for the WiFi Analyzer app you like, as I have, oh,
let me check, give me a second ... ok... I have 6 apps alone named exactly
that (i.e., "WiFi Analyzer") on my Android phone at this very minute:
<https://i.postimg.cc/ZqH1RDNv/debug-wifi-on-android.jpg>
o Wifi Analyser <com.keuwl.wifi>
o Wifi Analyzer <com.farproc.wifi.analyzer>
o Wifi Analyzer <com.farproc.wifi.analyzer.classic>
o WiFi Analyzer <abdelrahman.wifianalyzerpro>
o WiFi Analyzer <uk.co.soapysoft.wifianalyzer>
o WiFi Analyzer <com.wifianalyzer.networktools.networkanalyzer>

And yet, on iOS, there are zero. Sigh. The iPhone users don't even realize
how utterly primitive the app choices are on their beloved platform.
I test software like you test hardware, so I know them all.

I just wish my iOS iPads could have this kind of modern functionality.
Sigh.

(What's odd is that the Apple Apologists incessantly claim the
functionality exists, and they even did a Youtube video condemning me
because I proved they simply fabricated imaginary iOS functionality, as
they always seem to do - which is really odd for adults to try to pull).
o It's a fact iOS devices can't even graph Wi-Fi signal strength over time
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/PZuec56EWB0/rX-L9xbYAQAJ>

Here's the video Snit did about me, where it's hilarious that none of the
Apple Apologists ever even _once_ looked at the Y axis!
<https://youtu.be/7QaABa6DFIo>

Where, as far as I know, there's nothing like these tools on iOS (sadly):
https://i.postimg.cc/25v3FT6S/debug-on-android.jpg
(I wish such modern app functionality existed on iOS, so if anyone out
there knows iOS better than I do, please let me know where to get it).

In the words of the late great Steve Jobs, "You don't need to know".

You are correct that the Apple philosophy is to limit what you can do,
but what's strange about the many Apple Apologists is that they fabricate
imaginary iOS functionality all the time....

Why?
I don't know why.

But they do it all the time.
o What are common well-verified psychological traits of Apple Apologists
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/18ARDsEOPzM/veU8FwAjBQAJ>

They don't care that their credibility is shit the moment they do that.
o Meanwhile, I've never once posted something that wasn't a fact (AFAIK).

I care about my credibility - which is why the very fact that there are so
many trolls who infest this thread who don't give a whit about their lack
of credibility astounds me - since adults are supposed to provide value.

Sigh.

Even on the router software itself, we covered some things that are of
general interest to users, but, for example, we didn't mention AirSelect:
https://i.postimg.cc/kg5LKkz9/pbe-m2-400-airmax-setting.jpg

What is Air Select?
https://community.ui.com/questions/What-is-Air-Select/ab1949f3-8f39-42ac-8821-df5dcb2283a1
It's a variation on having the wireless access point change channel in
a futile effort to find one that is empty.

hehhehheh...

The client radios will all
follow the channel change without dropping the connection. Other
manufacturers WAP's and routers have the same feature. I always leave
it disabled because there are a small number of weird client radios
that fail to follow the channel change, and end up associated with a
totally different WAP or router on a different SSID. Leaving it off
has almost totally eliminated the "can't connect" phone calls.

Now that's interesting.

If you were an Apple Apologist, I would have to flip a coin to see if I
believed you, but since I know you, for many years, to be credible (as am
I), I believe you a priori.

Thanks for that advice where I will take it to heart since you have always
been credible, if a bit self effacing (I love the photo of you in your park
ranger outfit by the way ... it was so 70s ... but it makes you human on
Usenet!).

And, we didn't dig into details of the versatile use of wireless options:
o Station
o Access Point
o AP-Repeater
https://i.postimg.cc/htQ469sQ/pbe-m2-400-ap-station.jpg

Station means "client bridge".
Access point means "wireless access point", "multipoint wireless
bridge", "wireless router with the WAN port disconnected", or some
other conglomeration of impressive sounding buzzwords.
AP repeater means "interference and congestion generator with the
added bonus of cutting maximum throughput in half".

Hehhehheh... I didn't quite get all the technical jargon, but I did get the
jokes as the repeater does double duty, hence half the throughput.

I've never put the Ubiquiti radios on anything but bridge or access point,
so it's good information to know, where I love that these tools, like an
Android phone, turn out to be so versatile that they do far more than we
know at first.

Nor did we distinguish between the various network options, for example:
o Bridge
o Router
o SOHO Router
https://i.postimg.cc/gcBWpxnV/pbe-m2-400-bridge-router.jpg

Bridging is what ALL wi-fi devices do. It means they work on Layer 2

Thanks for that summary which makes total sense.

of the TCP/IP stack and use MAC addresses to switch packets to the
correct destination.
Router is Layer 3 of the TCP/IP stack. It adds IP addresses.

I've never used this, but it seems useful if we plug it into a switch where
we can have multiple devices on that switch, where, I guess, each gets its
own IP address from the Ubiquiti router.

Is that about right for the router (given it's only one RJ45 port coming
out of the radio)?

SOHO Router means "Small Office, Home Office router". That's a
commodity router with all the features and functions needed to provide
business class performance and reliability removed to keep the price
low.

What I'm guessing is that the "router" versus "soho router" option must be
giving the Ubiquiti radio "more options" that are related to routing.

As I said, I have never used that "soho router" option in the Ubiquiti
AirOS software, so I don't even know if I've ever needed to use it as a
"Soho router" and didn't know it.

Personally, I don't know them well enough to summarize each option above,
but maybe the experts here can write a quick one-line summary for each so
that everyone benefits in this purposefully helpful Usenet sharing potluck.

I only share with those who can pass a credit check.

Thanks for that advice, where you've helped me and many others cheerfully
over the years, where I still remember when I was trying to change MAC
addresses and IMEI numbers (many years ago when it mattered), and you
advised against it (and you explained that the one MAC address you can
change isn't the one you want to change, etc.).

My point is that your advice, over the years, has always been credible.
As am I.

Thanks - and - well - we were 'scheduled' for that PG&E outage, but we
didn't get it yet, so I had better send this off to you now before it
happens.

--
Usenet is a pairing of the most helpful minds to benefit everyone who can.

 

[Arlen _G_ Holder]

SUMMARY:

What I love is that the permanent Usenet record, will clearly show ...
in this thread, we covered a lot of technical ground, including:
1. Software on iOS & Android to debug WiFi signal strength over time
2. Hardware to vastly increase Access Point range over anemic consumer crap
3. Hardware to bridge Ethernet to WiFi that also vastly increases range
4. Using pro equipment that costs about the same as anemic consumer crap

All of this was done with only a handful of adult posters named below:
o Jeff Liebermann
o Johann Beretta
o Gary
o Gavin
o Frank
o Terry Coombs
o Xeno
o rbowman (only some of the time he posted as an adult)
o Bod
o John Kuthe

This isn't my first rodeo on Usenet, where I employed completely different
techniques in this thread, in order to prove that the trolls would troll no
matter how much you ignored them (see the statistics below for example).

The value here is that the permanent record showed that it doesn't matter
whether you feed the trolls (as in the case of trader_4) or not (as in the
case of Ed Pawlowsi & Fox's Mercantile, aka Snit), the trolls will
outnumber the adult posters something like 20 to 1, as shown by the number
of trolls posted by the well known list of common trolls listed below.

None of these trolls added value, nor did any post with purposefully
helpful intent, simply because, IMHO, they have no purposefully helpful
intent (i.e., they post for their own amusement), and, worse, they can't
possibly add value since the lack the basic knowledge required to do so.
o trader_4 (25 trolls, 2 adult posts)
o Ed Pawlowski (10 trolls, 0 adult posts)
o Fox' Mercantile (9 trolls, 1 adult post)
o Cindy Hamilton (9 trolls, 1 adult post)
o dpb (3 trolls, 0 adult posts)
o Clare Snyder (2 trolls, 0 adult posts)
o Al Gore (2 trolls, 0 adult posts)
o Trumpster (1 troll, 0 adult posts)
o devnull (1 troll, 0 adult posts)
o Troll (1 troll, 0 adult posts)
o gfretwell (1 troll, 0 adult posts)
o Roger Blake (1 troll, 0 adult posts)
o % x (1 troll, 0 adult posts)
o Grumpy Old White Guy (1 troll, 0 adult posts)

Also, the ground we covered was EXTREMELY DETAILED, where the permanent
record will show we gave settings, distances, model numbers, transmit
power, antenna gain, setup instructions, power instructions, line of sight
instructions, etc., such that any ADULT willing to learn from this thread,
has a wealth of knowledge that is available to him.

As just a sample of the wealth of knowledge in this thread, these were
posted, each of which takes time and energy & expertise to compose:
o <https://i.postimg.cc/05S6CtNn/align03.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/0NYJn7mF/nanobridge-nanobeam.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/25NdBZ7f/horn-to-router.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/25v3FT6S/debug-on-android.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/6QJqK6Cj/desktop02.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/6QQ2Lt74/align02.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/905nFgxX/nanobeamnanobridge.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/bNMMZ0Nv/wifi-speed.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/Bv0wZbDh/pbe-m2-400-802-11-wifi-setting.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/BZrZpDyp/debug-apps.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/cHLndnbY/antenna.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/CLBXc080/antenna03.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/D0vfqM3p/horns.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/DfQJq437/mikrotikrouter.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/DZccY2YD/decibels.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/Dzq9Bsjs/pb-m2-400-nanobeam.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/FRqR6DSq/android-wifi-analyzer.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/gcBWpxnV/pbe-m2-400-bridge-router.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/Gh22Sb2N/desktop.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/GpCG1H3G/airviewneedsjava.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/Hs0NWSKr/laptopnanobeam.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/htQ469sQ/pbe-m2-400-ap-station.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/JhyCRT69/horn-to-switch.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/JzpthvTr/align04.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/kg5LKkz9/pbe-m2-400-airmax-setting.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/nrkz5mgs/antenna01.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/pLXCzFxC/powerbeam-nanobeam.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/QMNv5FBC/typical-range-ptp.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/s2c2L8Wd/mikrotik-router.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/sfkHW6WG/align.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/SK04C6zL/ubiquiti-bullet-M2-hp.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/tCxLW2ZN/align01.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/vT0Krpfc/laptop-nanobeam-horn.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/VvqLKQtQ/wifi.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/XJChDCPr/spare-access-points.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/yNXw0TZS/antenna02.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/YqTk0q1T/ap.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/yx4CgWYt/mikrotik-router-config.jpg>
o <https://dl.ubnt.com/datasheets/rocketdish/rd_ds_web.pdf
o <https://dl.ubnt.com/datasheets/rocketm/RocketM_DS.pdf

In summary, we accomplished a lot in this thread, where the permanent
record will show that the common trolls will troll if you feed them (e.g.,
the experiment with trader_4), and they'll troll even if you ignore them
(e.g., the experiment with Ed Pawlowski & Fox' Mercantile (aka Snit).

The value added of this thread, IMHO, is that we covered, in detail, a
method to vastly increase the range of your access points or bridges to
WiFi, should you need that range, using professional equipment which costs
about the same as the anemic consumer equipment costs in the box stores.

--
Usenet is a potluck where adults gather to share knowledge which is then
archived in the permanent record for all to view now & decades from now.

 

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 10/27/2019 2:36 AM, Arlen _G_ Holder wrote:

SUMMARY:

What I love is that the permanent Usenet record, will clearly show ...
in this thread, we covered a lot of technical ground,
This isn't my first rodeo on Usenet, where I employed completely different
techniques in this thread, in order to prove that the trolls would troll no
matter how much you ignored them (see the statistics below for example).

The value here is that the permanent record showed that it doesn't matter
whether you feed the trolls (as in the case of trader_4) or not (as in the
case of Ed Pawlowsi & Fox's Mercantile, aka Snit), the trolls will
outnumber the adult posters something like 20 to 1, as shown by the number
of trolls posted by the well known list of common trolls listed below.

None of these trolls added value, nor did any post with purposefully
helpful intent, simply because, IMHO, they have no purposefully helpful
intent (i.e., they post for their own amusement), and, worse, they can't
possibly add value since the lack the basic knowledge required to do so.
o trader_4 (25 trolls, 2 adult posts)
o Ed Pawlowski (10 trolls, 0 adult posts)
o Fox' Mercantile (9 trolls, 1 adult post)
o Cindy Hamilton (9 trolls, 1 adult post)
o dpb (3 trolls, 0 adult posts)
o Clare Snyder (2 trolls, 0 adult posts)
o Al Gore (2 trolls, 0 adult posts)
o Trumpster (1 troll, 0 adult posts)
o devnull (1 troll, 0 adult posts)
o Troll (1 troll, 0 adult posts)
o gfretwell (1 troll, 0 adult posts)
o Roger Blake (1 troll, 0 adult posts)
o % x (1 troll, 0 adult posts)
o Grumpy Old White Guy (1 troll, 0 adult posts)

I'm up to 11 now. My goal is to point out what an arrogant, snobby,
prick you are. Just the fact that you took the time to enumerate all of
this shows what a simple minded senile old man you really are.

Your superiority attitude makes your life more difficult because you
just grate on people. You talk about adult posts but it is YOU that is
the most childish person here. I'm not afraid to call you out on it but
you are afraid to look in a mirror and see yourself for what you are.

 

[Arlen _G_ Holder]

On Sun, 27 Oct 2019 16:41:44 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

Why do they omit those critical Wi-Fi specs?
o I don't know why

For me, it is better for me to keep my router and my access point
'separate'.

Hi Mike Easter,

You're not a troll so it won't irk anyone for me to respond in detail to
you, where I don't disagree that almost all (many?) tools are best bought
separately for best performance and functionality (IMHO), I agree.

For example, you can purchase the fastest router (or switch) you can find
at whatever price is your price point, and then add the best access point
you can find at the best price point.

This has a HUGE advantage that the access point is connected by cat5, so it
can be located, oh, I don't know, hundreds of feet away, can't it?
<https://i.postimg.cc/25NdBZ7f/horn-to-router.jpg>

That gives you optimal placement of both the router & the access point.
o Plus, you can buy the most powerful access point allowed by law.

As you know from this recent thread, the AP will almost certainly be able
to shoot at the legal limit, which means it's as powerful as you can get
it, and all you have to do is plug it into the back of the fastest router
(or switch) you can find, and voila!

Instant (a) fastest router plus instant (b) most powerful access point,
each of which is (c) placed at the optimum location for your specific
needs.

What could be a more perfect situation?

o Just curious how far your Wi-Fi access point is from your desktop computer
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.internet.wireless/Dpk9EhVreJk/fx5dZ3XlDAAJ>

I generally am shopping price primarily, and I look at the specs
'secondarily' so that I don't buy something which is 'cheap'
(economical) and inferior. I would rather have economical and sufficient.

What you wrote makes general sense, Mike, but I have a logical
philosophical practical "issue" with that common sense approach.

As you know from the prior thread on WiFi range, the price of consumer
stuff is about the same as the price for the pro stuff (ever since Ubiquiti
got into the business anyway), where for $100 you can buy an anemic home
access point or for $100 you can buy the most powerful home access point
that the law allows.

The price doesn't seem to matter (all that much).
o And availability isn't an issue either (as Amazon carries it all)

What's needed is the knowledge.
o For example, the knowledge of the transmit power of your device.

At least when you buy the $100 pro stuff, you get clear, open, and obvious
Tx & Rx power specifications, extremely clearly noted, down to the plus or
minus in the measurements and down to the differences at each frequency
range.

You don't get ANY of those specifications (AFAIK) in the anemic home stuff,
which, kind of, sort of, is my main point.

The home stuff, IMHO, Tx & Rx power is utter crap (in most cases) compared
to the pro stuff, and yet, it costs about the same.

My point is that buying by separate components seems to make a lot of
sense, as does buying by the spec, but not by price since price doesn't
seem to track performance.

My cable service is 200 Mbs as opposed to gigabit. It is best for me to
have a gigabit router, but its wifi capabilities aren't very important
because its 'physical' location for wifi distribution for my needs is
terrible.

Wow.

Your situation is probably common, where your speeds are 10 times what mine
are since my Internet comes over the air, but what you just explained,
seems to me, to be a perfect candidate for something like this setup:
<https://i.postimg.cc/JhyCRT69/horn-to-switch.jpg>

1. You buy the FASTEST router (or dumb switch) you can afford
2. You tack on any access point that can Tx at the legal limits
3. You place that access point anywhere you want (hundreds of feet away)

Generally one can't get a 'good deal' on a router w/o wifi
these days because they ALL have wifi of various capabilities.

Yes. But.

The Ubiquiti devices can be easily set up to be routers:
<https://i.postimg.cc/gcBWpxnV/pbe-m2-400-bridge-router.jpg>

I'm not suggesting you do this, but I'm just saying you "can".
o You get the best of three worlds in terms of speed & power & placement
o At about the same price you pay now for consumer crap

I'm not suggesting you do this simply because we'd have to think it through
more thoroughly; but I am constantly reminding people that the consumer
stuff they pay for is crap in terms of its WiFi Tx power.

I suspect (but don't know this for a fact) that the REASON they don't tell
you the Tx specs on the box is that they KNOW it's crap.

Consumer stuff is probably crap in terms of Rx power too (but I haven't
checked that).

So, I also need a separate access point that I can connect by gigabit
ethernet to locate the AP in a much much better place w/in easy ethernet
connectivity to the router (or a gigabit switch which is located not
very far from the router to give me more ethernet ports, as on-sale
routers don't usually have enough ethernet ports for my needs, but one
economical router and one economical switch and one access point fills
the bill best and still costs less than $100 on sale.

Methinks you should, at least theoretically, consider three things:
1. The fastest router (or just a dumb switch) you like
2. Any access point that transmits to the legal limit
3. Placed within a few hundred feet of the router/switch (by cat5)

At least theoretically, doesn't that give you the best of 3 worlds?

Even though it's work, you're worth it, so I just snapped this picture for
you, which shows that I'm doing exactly that, where my router is nowhere
near my switch and where the access points are nowhere near the switch.
<https://i.postimg.cc/YSfBmPkf/dumb-switch-plus-access-point.jpg>

Note that you do NOT need such a huge access point, and also note that I
brought that access point from where it was, to this location, to put it in
the picture along with the switch, but rest assured, that access point is
working perfectly and tied to the switch you see in that picture.

Obviously with such a huge antenna dish, that access point has stellar
reception of even the weakest mobile devices (usually the anemic iOS
devices), which is why it's being used inside the house.

You don't need anything near that, and, in fact, you can easily get to the
legal limit on transmit power with just the small horn of these devices:
<https://i.postimg.cc/D0vfqM3p/horns.jpg>

It is easy to find an economical gigabit ethernet wifi AP w/ 300 Mbps
wifi for less than $25 and free shipping. The spec sheet provides EIRP
values which don't mean much to me.

I'd LOVE to see those spec sheets for the EIRP of those $25 routers!
o I'm expecting something really crappy, like less than 20 decibels.

Notice that, at least theoretically, you seem to be a perfect candidate for
the concept of breaking down the tools into the best at what they do.

Instead of the swiss army knife approach of most routers, you could
a. Get the fasted switch (or router) you like
b. Connect by cat5 an access point at up to the legal power limit
c. Place that access point anywhere you like (hundreds of feet away)

As noted, I do exactly that all the time, only my switches are all spare
switches that I have lying around, as are my access points.

In my system I don't need great range, just enough to give excellent
bandwidth throughout a large house and yard and minor obstacles in a
residential neighborhood full of other wifi, cell phones, and my own
several cordless landline type phones.

Range is a function of transmit power, antenna gain, & receiver
sensitivity, and bandwidth is a function of range and processing power, all
of which can be optimized using the approach you suggest.

Basically we're (theoretically) contrasting these two approaches:
a. Swiss Army Knife approach (which the typical consumer uses)
b. Optimized tools approach (which is in my photo I snapped for you).

What I don't know is whether the router that comes with the Ubiquiti
devices is "sufficient" for home use, but, hell, pros use it, so, I would
"think" it would be.

But I never set my Ubiquiti devices up as a router, per se
<https://i.postimg.cc/gcBWpxnV/pbe-m2-400-bridge-router.jpg>

I just set them up as a WiFi access point (or WiFi bridge to Ethernet):
<https://i.postimg.cc/htQ469sQ/pbe-m2-400-ap-station.jpg>

So I don't know how good or bad they are as a SOHO router.

--
As a courtesy to puruposefully helpful people sharing value, I will not
respond to common trolls (who impart nothing of value in their trolls).

 

[Arlen _G_ Holder]

On Mon, 28 Oct 2019 05:54:02 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

> My situation is very different from yours.

Hi Mike,

I understand that every situation is different, and, one of my key points
on versatility ot good tools is that even your situation is different today
than it might be five years from now (where you can repurpose stuff you
bought if it's versatile).

I only needed to move the wifi AP from the router by about 30' because
the location of the router is in a little 'Faraday cage' surrounded by
computers and electronic devices above beside and 'around' it in
addition to being on the floor (ground/slab) in a corner of 2 outside
stucco walls which are made with chicken wire netting for lathing.

Understood. The beauty of the switch (or router) being separate from the
access point is that you can place the access point anywhere you like.

One thing you might consider, Mike, which works GREAT for me because I
don't want to 'climb through walls' is you can position the access point
OUTSIDE the house pointing back at the house!

This idea works GREAT for me!

I'm nestled into the side of a hill, which helps, as I can see the roof
from my back yard, where every instance is different topographically, but
even on a flat yard, you can still paint the entire house with WiFi simply
by snaking a cat5 cable to the clotheslines pole, so to speak.

The geometry works out such that one side of the house only has a wall and
windows to penetrate (out here, windows are solar reflective/absorptive by
code).

So, for me, the important 'distance' from the router is to move the
radio to a location which is just free airspace in every direction
instead of being in a tight cage.

Understood, Mike, where it's refreshing to converse with someone like you
who has real needs and thinks of real solutions instead of having to deal
with the too many trolls who outnumber us 20:1 who simply post on Usenet
for their own amusement.

Given your needs are simply that the antenna needs to be in a different
location from the router/switch, I'm curious of you've looked at those
routers where the antenna itself is easily detachable and relocatable?

--
The beauty of good tools is that they work in a variety of situations.

 

[Arlen _G_ Holder]

On Mon, 28 Oct 2019 12:17:58 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert wrote:

If you're in the market, take a look at the Ubiquiti ER-X ($50) or
ER-X-SFP ($70). No WiFi to speak of, 5x gbit ethernet ports on the -X
(which can get any number of "routed" plus "switch" port configurations
- -- most use that in the "typical soho" approach of 1x router port + 4x
switched LAN ports); and the -SFP is pretty much identical, with the
addition of the SFP port, and as I recall does (Ubiquiti 24v passive)
PoE on all ports.

This is where Usenet potluck sharing shows its value:
<https://prd-www-cdn.ubnt.com/media/images/product-features/edgerouter-x-versatile-poe.jpg>

So I looked up those suggestions for Mike, where the first Amazon hit was:

$61.84 & FREE Shipping
o Ubiquiti EdgeRouter X Advanced Gigabit Ethernet Routers ER-X 256MB Storage 5 Gigabit RJ45 ports
<https://www.amazon.com/Ubiquiti-EdgeRouter-Advanced-Gigabit-Ethernet/dp/B00YFJT29C>
Where it was interesting, in the picture to see not only a POE in (which I
have on my switches also), but also a POE out (which is useful as I feel
good tools should be versatile to fit many situations over the years)
o Marketing: <https://www.ui.com/edgemax/edgerouter-x/>
o Specs: <https://dl.ubnt.com/datasheets/edgemax/EdgeRouter_X_DS.pdf>

Here's a review of the EdgeRouter X (aka ER-X):
<https://www.mbreviews.com/ubiquiti-edgerouter-x-review/>

The first hit of the ER-X-SFP was this:
$92.99 & FREE Shipping
o Ubiquiti Edgerouter X SFP - Router - Desktop - Black (ER-X-SFP)
<https://www.amazon.com/Ubiquiti-Edgerouter-SFP-Desktop-ER-X-SFP/dp/B012X45WH6/>

They're a bit old (uhh, 4-5 years), and other models have since come
out, but for traffic up to 500mbit symmetric, you can't really beat them
on price / performance.

Couple that with a few UAP-AC-* WiFi APs around the house, and you've
got a great setup.

This is what I love about the idea of coupling a fast but inexpensive
switch to a separate access point, such as is shown in this picture:
<https://www.mbreviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/ubiquiti-edgerouter-x-6-1.jpg>

Note: You can put that NanoBeam NBE-M5-16 either on the POE out port, or,
you could put it on ANY port if electricity is near the location of the
transceiver, where the advantage of the POE out port is that you the
transceiver can be placed in a location that doesn't have mains power.

It is easy to find an economical gigabit ethernet wifi AP w/ 300 Mbps
wifi for less than $25 and free shipping. The spec sheet provides EIRP
values which don't mean much to me.

Yeah ... the UAP-AC-* APs are about 3x that :/

Still quite inexpensive for what they are; but if price is the min
factor for you, well, they're probably out of the running already.

Then again -- it depends on how often you have to replace things.
"Cheap" can add up over time, especially if it only lasts a year or two
(I'm currently up to 5, maybe 6 years on my APs ... probably about time
to start thinking of getting whatever the new hotness is).

The one nice thing about all this Ubiquiti equipment is that they're like
hammers and screwdrivers, in that whenever you have a need, they seem to be
versatile enough to do the job well.

I don't have the speed needs that Mike has, but I love plugging "stuff"
into a switch where, for example, this is a radio I'm erecting outside that
is connected to a switch inside, which will paint the house from the sides:
<https://i.postimg.cc/YSfBmPkf/dumb-switch-plus-access-point.jpg>

--
While Usenet is replete with trolls, there are some adults who share value.

 

[Arlen _G_ Holder]

UPDATE:

Given this was my WiFi & cellular test situation at various locations:
o abdelrahman.wifianalyzerpro <https://i.postimg.cc/NMbNGBnm/wifi01.jpg>
o uk.co.soapysoft.wifianalyzer <https://i.postimg.cc/281Hmp7L/wifi02.jpg>
o com.keuwl.wifi <https://i.postimg.cc/Ls3Dvm2w/wifi03.jpg>
o make.more.r2d2.cellular_z <https://i.postimg.cc/tJwN7TNZ/wifi04.jpg>
etc.

I ended up purchasing this setup to test out, which just arrived:
o <https://i.postimg.cc/7L910XNy/wifi05.jpg>