Just curious how far your Wi-Fi access point is from your de

[Arlen _G_ Holder]

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:10:58 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert wrote:

That "extending WiFi" is the wrong answer when talking about long shots.
It works in a pinch, when you don't control the network (such as at a
beach resort or something); but when it comes to static PTP links; just
sticking to the proprietary protocols offered by the radios results in a
more reliable connection long term, through varying conditions.

Hi Dan Purgert,

I'm advocating they plug the device into the any RJ45 they have handy
o Voila! Instant WiFi extended range!

Everything I speak about here is range that almost anyone here can attain
o Simply by using the Plain Jane Wi-Fi 802.11 protocols they already use

For example, they can plug this PowerBeam horn into a router or switch
o And by doing so, they instantly attain Wi-Fi range at maximum legal power
<https://i.postimg.cc/vT0Krpfc/laptop-nanobeam-horn.jpg>

Note very clearly Dan Purgert ... this works with EVERYTHING they have now
o It works with mobile devices, laptops, desktops, routers, switches, etc.

*It works with anything & _everything_ that uses Plain Jane Wi-Fi, Dan.*

You are, apparently, advocating non-Wi-Fi protocols, for "long shots"
o Which is fine, for "long shots"... but it doesn't work with everything

Even so, you said (& I agree) that Plain Jane Wi-Fi can go for miles
o In this thread, I'm advocating use of Plain Jane "Wi-Fi" devices

You apparently have a pre-defined predilection for the non-Wi-Fi protocols
o But your innate preference for those specific non-Wi-Fi protocols
o Does not make suggestions based on Plain Jane Wi-Fi protocols "daft"

It just doesn't.

Non-Wi-Fi protocols are simply another way of accomplishing the same task
o Particularly for "long hauls" (where you're talking many miles)

Which is fine but that's NOT what this thread is mostly about Dan.
o Even pjp's distances are laughably puny for Wi-Fi protocols, Dan.

So stop saying that the use of WiFi protocols to extend range is daft, Dan.
o The WiFi protocols work just fine for extending range at home, Dan.

If someone on this thread simply wants to increase their range at home
o Then the Plain Jane 802.11 WiFi protocols are just fine, Dan.

In fact, the Plain Jane 802.11 protocols with EVERYTHING they have, Dan.
o For you to imply that's "daft", is, well, it's daft Dan.

I have nothing against your suggestion of non-Wi-Fi protocols
o But EVERYTHING I'm suggesting to extend home range is via WiFi protocols

It's not daft, Dan, to use WiFi protocols to extend range at home.
o In fact, it's a great idea for home use that works wonderfully well

I'm advocating they plug the device into the any RJ45 they have handy
o Voila! Instant WiFi extended range!

Elegant. Simple. Powerful. Functional. Beautiful. KISS. 'Repurposable.

--
The elegant beauty is that it simply works with everything that's WiFi!

 

[Johann Beretta]

On 10/18/19 2:35 PM, Arlen _G_ Holder wrote:
<snip>

Let's focus our insight on helping people do what we do all the time, OK?
O We throw WiFi easily for a dozen miles, without blinking, Johann

And that's the goddamn problem and why I don't think you have a clue
what you're talking about. You suggest to people to buy a Powerbeam to
"throw" wifi to a fucking pool next to the house. WHY???

Powerbeams are appropriate for miles long links. Going less than a
couple of miles? Then use a nano loco or a nano.

You have some sort of fetish with interfering with everyone else's wifi
signals? Goddamn.. there's a limited number of channels. If I can pick
up your pool WiFi 10 miles away, you're doing shit wrong and you're
being an asshole.

<snip>

We think differently, Johann.
o I'm more trusting than you Johann. More innocent.
o I'm always purposefully helpful.

Bullshit. You're worse than someone who doesn't know what they're doing.
You THINK you know what you're doing and you think you're an expert.
Then you take it upon yourself you teach your incorrect knowledge to
others and when it's pointed out you have a tantrum about how people who
correct your WRONG terminology are trolls.

Which is why it bothers me that the common trolls who infest this newsgroup
are the opposite of me, which is that nothing they posts adds any value
whatsoever - and - even ignorning them - doesn't stop them from infesting
the USenet potluck (just look at what the trolls wrote in this thread).

WTF is it with you and potlucks? You see any food? It's a discussion
group. Same as they have always been.

snip

I think differently than the trolls (e.g., I never troll).
o I think differently than the "semantic expert" (e.g., I add value).

No, you don't. You insist on teaching newbies the wrong terms. You're
like the electrician telling everyone they want 120 amps when you
actually mean volts. If you're going to teach someone, then teach them
CORRECTLY. You aren't doing anyone any favors by confusing them with
your terminology. When this person later talks to someone who actually
has a clue they're gonna sound like a damn idiot.

And, I think differently than anyone who harranges us on "legal" issues
o When there is zero evidence that pjp is attempting to break the law

I never said he was. You made the grandiose statement that it was
impossible to break the law using Ubiquiti equipment. I showed that's
patently false. They aren't fool-proof devices. Build an idiot proof
device and nature will invent a better idiot. The ONLY reason I brought
it up was your asinine statement that it wasn't possible. An EXPERT
would have known that it was SIMPLE to do.


<snip>

And then we can get back to adding value on Usenet.
o Deal?

What value? The value of you teaching shit incorrectly?
Here's a good rule of thumb. When everyone else thinks you're an
asshole, it's the height of self delusion to declare that EVERYONE else
is wrong. That's like the guy who's been married 5 times and says all
his exes are "bitches". One common thread in all those marriages. The
guy! Likewise, if all these people are "trolls" then you need some self
reflection pal.

The guy needs advice on how to throw his WiFi a kilometer
o From his house to his RV
o Where there is only a "hole" in the trees back at the RV
o And where the RV has generator power.

One place you can help advise pjp (and the rest of us as a result) is how
you'd recommend he "power" the tree radio at the RV.

I dunno. Maybe that fucking generator he mentioned?

For example, would you recommend just mooching off the RV battery?

You tell me. A Powerbeam, if you insist on using it for a lousy
kilometer, draws about 10 watts. You think an RV battery can handle
that? You're the expert. You think a 40 or 50 amp-hour battery can
handle a 10 watt draw?

<snip>

Another question you can help advise pjp on, and, in the process, the rest
of us learn from your advice, is how much power loss is calculatable for
penetrating less-than-dense foliage a distance of a kilometer.

Good luck with that. Neither you nor I know how dense it is, what the
water content of the leaves is.. Etc etc etc. You try it. If it
doesn't work it doesn't work. If it does work, then it works.

I'd narrow the beam as much as possible. As a rule we don't try to
transmit through trees. If you have to, then you narrow the signal as
much as possible. RF elements has a whole line of narrow beam horns and
dishes. But, in the end, you try it. This whole process should take
less than a couple of hours. Why waste hours with theory? Try it.

Then, if it works, you start dialing the transmit power down, on both
radios, until you get it is as low as possible where it still works.
Then maybe bump it up a few dbm's so it'll handle some rain.

>

 

[Johann Beretta]

On 10/19/19 12:32 PM, Arlen _G_ Holder wrote:

<snip>

Thanks for the purposefully helpful terminology hint.
o Particularly since the way Ubiquiti uses 'bridge' always confused me

Ubiquiti is using it correctly. A wireless bridge connects two wired
networks or segments of one network. That's exactly what you have when
you set up wifi. It's a wire at both ends with wireless in the middle.
A network, or network segment, need not be multiple devices. A single
device qualifies.

<snip>

Which, kind of, is why I'm a bit confused about what's the difference
o Between a "nanobeam" and a "nanobridge"

The nanobridge's had larger dishes (and higher gain). The nanobeams were
the newer product with slightly better CPUs And, I suspect, were
designed for much shorter links.

 

[Johann Beretta]

On 10/18/19 8:26 PM, Arlen _G_ Holder wrote:

<snip>

BTW, as Johann Beretta noted prior, you "could" pull the horn out of that
radio, and it would be a LOT smaller, and still be a LOT more powerful than
the utterly puny 30mW (or whatever) 1/2 dBi (or whatever) Wi-Fi output of
that anemic IBM ThinkPad WiFi.
https://i.postimg.cc/Hs0NWSKr/laptopnanobeam.jpg

This is not difficult.

decibel = a logarithmic scale used to reference one unit of power to
another. (which is why you can't transmit in decibels. A decibel is a
dimensionless unit. It's used to quantify the ratio between two values,
such as signal-to-noise ratio.)

dBm = power ratio in reference to a milliwatt

dBi = power ratio in reference to an isotropic transmitter. (isotropic
is equal in all directions)

mw = milliwatts (1/1000 of a watt)

 

[Fox's Mercantile]

On 10/22/19 6:29 AM, Johann Beretta wrote:

Good luck with that. Neither you nor I know how dense it
is, what the water content of the leaves is.. Etc etc etc.
You try it. If it doesn't work it doesn't work. If it does
work, then it works.

Case in point. I wanted to link my shop to the house LAN.
I bought a pair of Ubiquiti Litebeam M5 links. One on the
front of the shop and one on the front of the house.

Not bad, 65 MBS. Then spring happened. My Pecan tree and
the neighbor's in the front yard leafed out. My link speed
dropped to about 100 KBS.

I moved the house transceiver to a sign out next to the
street. Line of sight again. Link speed went up to 150 MBS.

Meanwhile, everything at the shop acted like it was just
plugged into the AT&T U-Verse modem/router. As it should be.

Side note: Arlen is a carbuncle on the ass of humanity.
Every one of his diatribes has been a bullshit laden rant.
Whether it be Apple fucking it's customers, front end tire
alignment or this crap about WiFi.



--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

 

[Arlen _G_ Holder]

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 05:07:14 -0700, Johann Beretta wrote:

This is not difficult.

decibel = a logarithmic scale used to reference one unit of power to
another. (which is why you can't transmit in decibels. A decibel is a
dimensionless unit. It's used to quantify the ratio between two values,
such as signal-to-noise ratio.)

dBm = power ratio in reference to a milliwatt

dBi = power ratio in reference to an isotropic transmitter. (isotropic
is equal in all directions)

mw = milliwatts (1/1000 of a watt)

Hi Johann Beretta,

Thank you for those decibel & milliwatt clarifications, where the members
of the chosen newsgroups likely have pretty good comprehension of the math.
o <http://tinyurl.com/alt-internet-wireless>
o <http://tinyurl.com/alt-home-repair>
o <http://tinyurl.com/sci-electronics-repair>

What's nice is that our conversation showing how easy it is to extend the
range of WiFi is 'permanently' archived in the typical web searchable sites
such that others can benefit from the information you and I and Jeff
Liebermann shared, now, and long into the future.
o <http://alt.internet.wireless.narkive.com>
o <http://alt.home.repair.narkive.com>
o <http://sci.electronics.repair.narkive.com>

I consider my main shared "item of technical value" was simply that...
A. People _can_ obtain this "instant extended range"
B. Relatively easily (by plugging these devices into RJ45 ports)
C. At "about" the same cost as they pay today for less powerful devices

For example, plugging a properly configured PowerBeam horn into a laptop
<https://i.postimg.cc/vT0Krpfc/laptop-nanobeam-horn.jpg>
instantly provides the laptop with a powerful bridge to WiFi access points.

Just as plugging in that same horn into your spare old router would
instantly & vastly extend the range of otherwise unused router, would it
not? (Focus on range, as speeds are limited to the slowest device.)
<https://i.postimg.cc/25NdBZ7f/horn-to-router.jpg>

And, while I've never tried it, I don't see any reason plugging that horn
into the back of a "dumb switch" wouldn't also turn it into a powerful omni
access point, do you?
<https://i.postimg.cc/JhyCRT69/horn-to-switch.jpg>

Since I haven't tried the switch idea, I'd ask others here who have
o Wouldn't all those arrangements work to instantly "extend the range"
(where extending the range of a switch is to add the access point).

--
Usenet is a public potluck where adults share their knowlege & experience.

 

[Arlen _G_ Holder]

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 04:29:00 -0700, Johann Beretta wrote:

For example, would you recommend just mooching off the RV battery?

You tell me. A Powerbeam, if you insist on using it for a lousy
kilometer, draws about 10 watts. You think an RV battery can handle
that? You're the expert. You think a 40 or 50 amp-hour battery can
handle a 10 watt draw?

This is the FIRST statement you've made in the post I'm responding to,
Johann, that indicates you can post valuable information with purposefully
helpful intent - which I appreciate - on behalf of Usenet archives.

The reason I asked you is that question is that, as I had stated prior, I
have no experience with running these devices off the grid, but where I
know the WISP professionals have solar-charged battery backups at many of
their remote sites.

Given I have no experience running these devices off the grid, I'm not sure
if the WISP professionals run these devices directly off the 12VDC though,
or via inverters, as with the case of the RV, I'm not sure if pjp could run
off the inverter or off the battery itself, as, I said, I have no
experience running these devices off the grid.

Assuming 1 amp at 12 volts DC (i.e., 12 Watts), the question is how long
can an RV battery realistically hold out.

I never owned an RV, so I don't even know how large they are, or how many
they have, so, googling, the first hit was this "Basic RV Electricity"
o <https://rvservices.koa.com/rvinformation/rvmaintenance/basic-rv-electricity.asp>
o <https://www.outdoorsy.com/blog/rv-electricity-basics>

I only skimmed those RV basics, as I was just looking for the amp hour
rating of the typical batteries.

Searching Amazon for RV batteries, this "WindyNation" 100amp-Hour battery
shows up a lot so let's start with that for now as a starting point:
o WindyNation 100 amp-Hour 100AH 12V 12 Volt AGM Deep Cycle Sealed Lead Acid Battery - Solar RV UPS Off-Grid (1 pc 100 amp-Hour)
<https://www.amazon.com/WindyNation-amp-Hour-100AH-Sealed-Battery/dp/B07BS1ZB15/>

So, at 1 amp discharge rate, it seems that battery could last about 4 days
in perfect situations, where, we have to leave a reserve (I assume, unless
it's a spare battery) cutting that in half, and if we assume other
non-ideal conditions, we can cut that half in half, so, it seems, given
that battery, at a 1 amp discharge rate, it would last an entire day.

I'm sure you'll let me know where my arithmetic is off, if it is off.
o I love to be corrected with facts

Adults do two things, which is why their belief systems are rational
o Adults comprehend basic facts, and,
o Adults form belief systems that can change if the facts change

Do you concur that the arithmetic works out to 'about a day' of use?
o If not, why not.

Please act like an adult, and don't call it a "fucking battery" for
example; just deal with the arithmetic please. Like adults should.

Another question you can help advise pjp on, and, in the process, the rest
of us learn from your advice, is how much power loss is calculatable for
penetrating less-than-dense foliage a distance of a kilometer.

Good luck with that. Neither you nor I know how dense it is, what the
water content of the leaves is.. Etc etc etc. You try it. If it
doesn't work it doesn't work. If it does work, then it works.

I'd narrow the beam as much as possible. As a rule we don't try to
transmit through trees. If you have to, then you narrow the signal as
much as possible. RF elements has a whole line of narrow beam horns and
dishes. But, in the end, you try it. This whole process should take
less than a couple of hours. Why waste hours with theory? Try it.

Then, if it works, you start dialing the transmit power down, on both
radios, until you get it is as low as possible where it still works.
Then maybe bump it up a few dbm's so it'll handle some rain.

This is another useful adult observation, which will not only help others,
but which will also remain in the Usenet archives 'permanently' (for
whatever value of permeant the Internet can provide) such that others will
find it useful in future searches.

I agree with you that we don't have much of an idea of the foliage
o And I agree, we avoid foliage if we can (usually with height)

The good news is that height is possible at both ends, and, that there must
be a slope involved since pjp mentioned the shot was "all downhill".

Your advice to narrow the beam is apropos, as is your advice to test it
out, which is what we do all the time out here (but we have a LOT of spare
equipment, including a light tripod to mount the rockets to quite nicely).

I do agree with you also that you start with full transmit power, and then
you dial it down until it stops working, and then dial it back up for what
I call "headroom" but which has a proper term.

I generally seek about a dozen decibels of what I call 'headroom' (Jeff
Liebermann more accurately discussed the terminology & calculations,
including a table, in a prior helpful post elsewhere in this thread).

Thanks for that purposefully helpful advice for pjp, which others can also
benefit from, given Usenet is a potluck where we all bring items of value
to share.

--
Merriam Webster (Am)English definition of "potluck":
o whatever is offered or available in given circumstances or at a given time
<https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/potluck>

 

[Arlen _G_ Holder]

As an interesting, timely, & somewhat related aside, note this news today
where people are going to what I'd consider a lot of trouble, just to
extend WiFi by 200 feet:
o BYU researchers extend WiFi range by 200 feet with a software upgrade
<https://www.engadget.com/2019/10/22/wifi-onpc-protocol/>

Notice that the EnGadget guys explain what levels people go to in order to
extend WiFi range, by 67 meters "beyond the range of standard WiFi".

Here's the lion's share of the proposal... (verbatim to the post end)

"But researchers think there might be another way: a software protocol
that extends the distance connected devices can send and receive WiFi by
more than 60 meters.

The researchers, led by Brigham Young Unviersity, have dubbed the protocol
On-Off Noise Power Communication (ONPC). While WiFi typically requires
speeds of at least one megabit per second to maintain a signal, the ONPC
protocol can maintain a signal on as little as one one bit per second.
That's one millionth of the data speed typically required.

The protocol does this by allowing WiFi-enabled devices to send wireless
noise as well as data. According to BYU, it allows the device to send a
series of 1s and 0s, essentially turning on and off its signal in a
specific pattern. That's enough to tell the WiFi router that the device is
still transmitting something (even if no data is being received) and
maintain the signal.

"It's basically sending 1 bit of information that says it's alive," says
Professor Neal Patawri of Washington University in St. Louis.

When put to the test, the ONPC protocol allowed the researchers to extend
the range of an off-the-shelf device 67 meters beyond the range of standard
WiFi."

--
It does have a cost advantage though, as presumably, it would be free.

 

[Johann Beretta]

On 10/22/19 2:18 PM, Arlen _G_ Holder wrote:

<snip>

Given I have no experience running these devices off the grid, I'm not sure
if the WISP professionals run these devices directly off the 12VDC though,
or via inverters, as with the case of the RV, I'm not sure if pjp could run
off the inverter or off the battery itself, as, I said, I have no
experience running these devices off the grid.

Well, first off Ubiquiti are (mostly) 24vdc devices. There are a few
cases where they have gone to 48V (AirFiber) but, by and large, they are
24vdc. So if you've got a 12v battery you'd have to step it up to 24v
with a converter. Not the best way to do things, but it will work. Just
don't cheap out and use some piece-of-shit Chinese junk.

There are some devices that will work with as low as 9v, but that's not
a good idea as the lower voltages are less efficient and cause extra
stress on the device. You can burn out electronics just as quickly with
low voltages as you can with high voltages. Well. maybe not as quickly..
but it can damage them eventually.

Assuming 1 amp at 12 volts DC (i.e., 12 Watts), the question is how long
can an RV battery realistically hold out.

Well, a 50 amp-hour battery is 1 amp for 50 hours or 50 amps for 1 hour.
So.. 50 hours. I wouldn't suggest more than a 50% draw on a deep
cycle, so figure a full day (24 hours). I don't know shit about RVs so
maybe RV batteries are bigger than that.

Searching Amazon for RV batteries, this "WindyNation" 100amp-Hour battery
shows up a lot so let's start with that for now as a starting point:
o WindyNation 100 amp-Hour 100AH 12V 12 Volt AGM Deep Cycle Sealed Lead Acid Battery - Solar RV UPS Off-Grid (1 pc 100 amp-Hour)
https://www.amazon.com/WindyNation-amp-Hour-100AH-Sealed-Battery/dp/B07BS1ZB15/

So, at 1 amp discharge rate, it seems that battery could last about 4 days
in perfect situations, where, we have to leave a reserve (I assume, unless
it's a spare battery) cutting that in half, and if we assume other
non-ideal conditions, we can cut that half in half, so, it seems, given
that battery, at a 1 amp discharge rate, it would last an entire day.

I concur with that conclusion.

<snip>

Your advice to narrow the beam is apropos, as is your advice to test it
out, which is what we do all the time out here (but we have a LOT of spare
equipment, including a light tripod to mount the rockets to quite nicely).

I carry a tripod in my truck. If I'm at all "iffy" about setting up
internet at a customer's house, I use the tripod to try it out. If I
can get a decent signal using the tripod, then I know I'm good to go
once I get the dish up on the roof.

I do agree with you also that you start with full transmit power, and then
you dial it down until it stops working, and then dial it back up for what
I call "headroom" but which has a proper term.

I generally seek about a dozen decibels of what I call 'headroom' (Jeff
Liebermann more accurately discussed the terminology & calculations,
including a table, in a prior helpful post elsewhere in this thread).

And that's a problem. 1 or 2 dbm more than ideal is all you need. It's
a logarithmic scale. 27 dbm isn't a little bit more than 26 dbm. It's a
LOT more.

20 dbm = 100 milliwatts
21 dbm = 125 milliwatts
....
26 dbm = 398 milliwatts
27 dbm = 501 milliwatts

See where this is going? You're saying you'd bump it up a dozen? Well,
lets use 20 dbm as a baseline and increase it by a dozen:

20 dbm = 100 milliwatts
32 dbm = 1,584 milliwatts (1.584 watts)

I hope I need not explain the issue with your "headroom"

 

[Johann Beretta]

On 10/22/19 11:39 AM, Arlen _G_ Holder wrote:
<snip>

And, while I've never tried it, I don't see any reason plugging that horn
into the back of a "dumb switch" wouldn't also turn it into a powerful omni
access point, do you?
https://i.postimg.cc/JhyCRT69/horn-to-switch.jpg

I suspect that's exactly what it would do... And maybe we finally have a
legitimate reason for the 3dbm setting in the config file.

Since I haven't tried the switch idea, I'd ask others here who have
o Wouldn't all those arrangements work to instantly "extend the range"
(where extending the range of a switch is to add the access point).

Well, there's more to it than just plugging it in and instantly
extending the range.

For one, you need to configure it. LAN settings.. WAN settings.. You're
gonna need to disable AIRMax, which is on by default. You need to set
your WPA2 password/phrase and you, most certainly, need to set an SSID.

And you really, really, should adjust the transmit power to an
appropriate level so one isn't another RF asshole blasting noise far
beyond what is needed. If you want better WiFi and you live in a tract
home, then setting the transmit power to 28dbm is a dick move.

If you live in the middle of Montana and there's not another house for
10 miles, and you'd like max coverage, then maybe 28dbm is appropriate.

Failing to do the above with a 2.4GHz device should be a capital crime.
there's only 3 non-overlapping (at 20MHz) channels.. Your neighbor
picking up your signal at full bars means you've just fucked him out of
being able to use one of those three. Three neighbors can make wifi
miserable for all involved.

 

[Arlen _G_ Holder]

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 19:45:06 -0700, Johann Beretta wrote:

And, while I've never tried it, I don't see any reason plugging that horn
into the back of a "dumb switch" wouldn't also turn it into a powerful omni
access point, do you?
https://i.postimg.cc/JhyCRT69/horn-to-switch.jpg

I suspect that's exactly what it would do... And maybe we finally have a
legitimate reason for the 3dbm setting in the config file.

Thanks Johann for confirming that it would probably work just fine to plug
a spare omni PowerBeam horn into a spare switch to instantly add a powerful
WiFi access point out of spare parts already lying around such as these I
have on my shelf right now:
<https://i.postimg.cc/XJChDCPr/spare-access-points.jpg>

Since I haven't tried the switch idea, I'd ask others here who have
o Wouldn't all those arrangements work to instantly "extend the range"
(where extending the range of a switch is to add the access point).

Well, there's more to it than just plugging it in and instantly
extending the range.

For one, you need to configure it. LAN settings.. WAN settings.. You're
gonna need to disable AIRMax, which is on by default. You need to set
your WPA2 password/phrase and you, most certainly, need to set an SSID.

That's all easy stuff, where I'd assess setting up these devices to be
about the same complexity or simplicity as setting up a home router is.
<https://i.postimg.cc/JhyCRT69/horn-to-switch.jpg>

Basically, I've only used two different settings:
o When I set it up like this, it's an instant access point:
<https://i.postimg.cc/25NdBZ7f/horn-to-router.jpg>
o When I set it up like this, it's an instant bridge:
<https://i.postimg.cc/vT0Krpfc/laptop-nanobeam-horn.jpg>

And you really, really, should adjust the transmit power to an
appropriate level so one isn't another RF asshole blasting noise far
beyond what is needed. If you want better WiFi and you live in a tract
home, then setting the transmit power to 28dbm is a dick move.
If you live in the middle of Montana and there's not another house for
10 miles, and you'd like max coverage, then maybe 28dbm is appropriate.

Failing to do the above with a 2.4GHz device should be a capital crime.
there's only 3 non-overlapping (at 20MHz) channels.. Your neighbor
picking up your signal at full bars means you've just fucked him out of
being able to use one of those three. Three neighbors can make wifi
miserable for all involved.

As I said many times, we have 40 acre zoning out here, so if you have 79
acres, you can still only build one home on that entire property.

Even so, proper setup is assumed, as there's no indication at this time
that anyone wants to set it up any other way, just like when I buy a ski
mask, the salesman can warn me once, twice, three times, four times, maybe
even five or six or seven times not to rob banks using it.

But after the dozen'th time, the warning gets a bit stale for something
that was never gonna happen in the first place.

The good news is that we can easily envision turning a spare switch into a
WiFi access point, given that I have tons of spare switches and radios.
<https://i.postimg.cc/JhyCRT69/horn-to-switch.jpg>

What this shows is that re-use is handy when fixing wifi range at home.
--
Usenet is a potluck where adults share value for the benefit of all.

 

[Arlen _G_ Holder]

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 18:58:59 -0700, Johann Beretta wrote:

Given I have no experience running these devices off the grid, I'm not sure
if the WISP professionals run these devices directly off the 12VDC though,
or via inverters, as with the case of the RV, I'm not sure if pjp could run
off the inverter or off the battery itself, as, I said, I have no
experience running these devices off the grid.

Well, first off Ubiquiti are (mostly) 24vdc devices. There are a few
cases where they have gone to 48V (AirFiber) but, by and large, they are
24vdc. So if you've got a 12v battery you'd have to step it up to 24v
with a converter. Not the best way to do things, but it will work. Just
don't cheap out and use some piece-of-shit Chinese junk.

There are some devices that will work with as low as 9v, but that's not
a good idea as the lower voltages are less efficient and cause extra
stress on the device. You can burn out electronics just as quickly with
low voltages as you can with high voltages. Well. maybe not as quickly..
but it can damage them eventually.

Thanks for that information as I was under the impression that these things
worked fine with 12 volts to 24 volts, where a quick google confirmed
"some" work at 12VDC, e.g., this thread from 4 years ago
o 12 Volts for ubnt devices...
<https://community.ui.com/questions/12-Volts-for-ubnt-devices-/66a70792-191c-4d41-9c65-48a3fdac8e36>
Where the OP specifically asked about his 3 devices (2 of which I have):
o Rocket M5 (they said it works fine on 12VDC)
o Bullet M2 (they said it works fine on 12VDC)
o Nanostation Loco M5 (they said it works fine on 12VDC)

But they did advise:
"Get a passive PIE injector cable & apply battery voltage to the inputs"
<https://www.adafruit.com/product/435 >
<https://cdn-shop.adafruit.com/970x728/435-05.jpg>

Likewise, with this guy who asked about using bullets in a moving car:
o Bullet M2 (they said it works fine on 12VDC)
o Bullet M5 (they said it works fine on 12VDC)
Where they suggested for a car's rather noisy automotive system:
"Tycon makes a 12v to 18v poe injector that would likely smooth out the
bumps and ripples."
Where they guys are pretty experienced at that forum, saying:
"Most of these radios will actually work OK down to 7 or 8 volts, which
you should never see if the power system of the vehicle is good."

One guy suggested these for people using them in vehicles:
o 12 Volt to 24 Volt Passive PoE: Tycon Power Systems TP-DCDC-1224 9-36VDC IN 24VDC OUT, 19W DC to DC Conv.
<https://www.streakwave.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=TP-DCDC-1224&eq=&Tp=&o1=0>
o 12 Volt to 24 Volt Passive PoE (Gigabit): Tycon Power Systems TP-DCDC-1224G 24V Passive PoE Output Gigabit Injector
<https://www.streakwave.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=TP-DCDC-1224G&eq=&Tp=&o1=0>
o Dual 5 Volt USB to 24 Volt Passive PoE: Tycon Power Systems TP-DCDC-2USB-24 USB Powered 24V Passive POE Inserter
<https://www.streakwave.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=TP-DCDC-2USB-24&eq=&Tp=&o1=0>

For the record, for those contemplating vehicle usage, that thread said:
<https://community.ui.com/questions/12-Volt-Vehicle-PoE-for-Bullet/bc43df70-59cf-4d18-b6ac-8ed4e8d3c583>

Assuming 1 amp at 12 volts DC (i.e., 12 Watts), the question is how long
can an RV battery realistically hold out.

Well, a 50 amp-hour battery is 1 amp for 50 hours or 50 amps for 1 hour.
So.. 50 hours. I wouldn't suggest more than a 50% draw on a deep
cycle, so figure a full day (24 hours). I don't know shit about RVs so
maybe RV batteries are bigger than that.

I don't know anything about RVs either, but that 100 amp battery came up a
lot on my searches, so if I assume 100 amps, it could last, in and of
itself, for four days, but we'd have to cut that down to have a reserve for
starting the vehicle.

Anyway, if the guy wants to, he can run off the battery for at least a day,
which may be enough for him to do in between charges (dunno, he's already
got to run a ton of other electrical stuff in that RV based on the stuff
that I already posted in those "RV Electrical Basics" links.

Suffice to say, it's his choice (if he picks the right devices)
o Generator
o Inverter
o Passive POE

Searching Amazon for RV batteries, this "WindyNation" 100amp-Hour battery
shows up a lot so let's start with that for now as a starting point:
o WindyNation 100 amp-Hour 100AH 12V 12 Volt AGM Deep Cycle Sealed Lead Acid Battery - Solar RV UPS Off-Grid (1 pc 100 amp-Hour)
https://www.amazon.com/WindyNation-amp-Hour-100AH-Sealed-Battery/dp/B07BS1ZB15/

So, at 1 amp discharge rate, it seems that battery could last about 4 days
in perfect situations, where, we have to leave a reserve (I assume, unless
it's a spare battery) cutting that in half, and if we assume other
non-ideal conditions, we can cut that half in half, so, it seems, given
that battery, at a 1 amp discharge rate, it would last an entire day.

I concur with that conclusion.

Thanks. I always base my belief system on facts.
o If the facts change, I modify the belief system
Such that it's always not only based on facts, but bolstered by facts.

It's why adults own rational belief systems after all.

Your advice to narrow the beam is apropos, as is your advice to test it
out, which is what we do all the time out here (but we have a LOT of spare
equipment, including a light tripod to mount the rockets to quite nicely).

I carry a tripod in my truck. If I'm at all "iffy" about setting up
internet at a customer's house, I use the tripod to try it out. If I
can get a decent signal using the tripod, then I know I'm good to go
once I get the dish up on the roof.

It's nice to know the technique we use is similar to yours.

If we want to test out a location for someone, we bring a tripod and hook
up a Rocket (usually) and see what we get.

Sometimes we get a wildly asymmetrical signal (upstream versus downstream),
which we've not figured out why yet (a lobe perhaps?) since the WISP is
symmetric.

Basically, if the signal is good on the ground, we know it's gonna be good
on the rooftop or in a tree, but we try to avoid trees if we can since
everyone has a rooftop.

I do agree with you also that you start with full transmit power, and then
you dial it down until it stops working, and then dial it back up for what
I call "headroom" but which has a proper term.

I generally seek about a dozen decibels of what I call 'headroom' (Jeff
Liebermann more accurately discussed the terminology & calculations,
including a table, in a prior helpful post elsewhere in this thread).

And that's a problem. 1 or 2 dbm more than ideal is all you need. It's
a logarithmic scale. 27 dbm isn't a little bit more than 26 dbm. It's a
LOT more.
20 dbm = 100 milliwatts
21 dbm = 125 milliwatts
....
26 dbm = 398 milliwatts
27 dbm = 501 milliwatts

See where this is going? You're saying you'd bump it up a dozen? Well,
lets use 20 dbm as a baseline and increase it by a dozen:

20 dbm = 100 milliwatts
32 dbm = 1,584 milliwatts (1.584 watts)

I hope I need not explain the issue with your "headroom"

There are a few ways of looking at this, where, I'm sure you're aware, the
power measurement in the AirOS report changes greatly at times, easily a
handful of decibels, sometimes much more.

Also, there are different applications we're talking about, from bridges,
to access points, to mountaintop to mountaintop Internet feeds, etc., where
each one is different in the setup and requirements, noise, and channels,
etc.

In addition, as you're aware, these are reasonably narrow beam devices for
the most part, particularly the mountaintop to mountaintop ones, where
they're also set up differently in most cases (e.g., non WiFi for example).

In addition, many are nowadays 5GHz which has more non overlapping
channels, which, is why, by the way, I have so much 2.4GHz stuff lying
around (as we replace 2.4GHz with 5GHz every time we go up on a roof).

While there are lots of variables, your way of looking at it is fine
though, where I'm not saying that the lowest power that works in the given
application isn't a good idea, as it is.

--
Usenet is where complete srangers team up to share knowledge with everyone.

 

[Johann Beretta]

On 10/22/19 10:43 PM, Arlen _G_ Holder wrote:
<snip>

There are a few ways of looking at this, where, I'm sure you're aware, the
power measurement in the AirOS report changes greatly at times, easily a
handful of decibels, sometimes much more.

snip

Continue on with your decibels and painting wifi (or throwing it). I've
tired of your inability to want to learn how to be a good spectrum
steward and use the proper terminology for the industry. Apparently it's
your belief that unlicensed spectrum means you have the moral right to
do whatever the fuck you want with it.

Do the rest of us a favor and switch to the AC line of gear and get
familiar with the "automatic power control" button in the UI. This lets
the radio decide how much power it needs (and it will adjust on the fly)
to maintain a link.

It's clear you're a amateur wireless operator who thinks he's risen to
the level of a expert. Unfortunately your posts disprove that. (And for
anyone else reading, I'm not claiming I'm an expert, but I sure-as-hell
can recognize an amateur when I see one)

You're not doing the newbies any favors. You're starting them off
turned in the wrong direction. It's because of clueless asshats that
the rest of us are having to move to 24 GHz where you CANNOT interfere
with our transmissions no matter how hard you try, through malice or
INCOMPETENCE.

Keep "throwing your wifi", I'm throwing you in my kill-file.

 

[Johann Beretta]

On 10/22/19 9:59 PM, Arlen _G_ Holder wrote:

As I said many times, we have 40 acre zoning out here, so if you have 79
acres, you can still only build one home on that entire property.

Even so, proper setup is assumed, as there's no indication at this time
that anyone wants to set it up any other way, just like when I buy a ski
mask, the salesman can warn me once, twice, three times, four times, maybe
even five or six or seven times not to rob banks using it.

I'm not getting into legality. I'm getting into being a good neighbor
and being polite. Do you get this?

Where I'm at there are 1,300 acre ranches. That doesn't mean that wifi
is going to hit the property-line and stop. Hence my reiterations..

You get someone who lives in Kansas and 40 acres to a transmitter means
nothing. That signal may travel for dozens of miles. As I have
mentioned before I can pick up the San Onofre Vistior's Wifi signal over
60 miles away. That means I could, if I so chose, attempt to hack a
network that is a 2 hour drive away. That's crazy.

The more powerful your transmitter the greater the audience of people
who may decide to attempt to penetrate your network. If I can pick up
your SSID, that's all I need to being a WPA2 attack.. $50 in Amazon
cloud computing time and now I get to use your internet to write death
threats to the President. Guess who's door the Secret Service is going
to kick in?

I don't care if you think that's an unlikely scenario. Security must be
practiced proactively. Reactive security isn't security, it's damage
control. There's no reason to expose one's self to threats that one
does not need to.

 

[Arlen _G_ Holder]

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 04:29:00 -0700, Johann Beretta wrote:

You suggest to people to buy a Powerbeam to
"throw" wifi to a fucking pool next to the house. WHY???

Hi Johann,

First off, please don't build an imaginary strawman that didn't occur
o I said MANY TIMES that people could use any Ubiquiti device they want

That Powerbeam horn you see in the photos is simply because I have one
lying around, where, in the case of pjp's one kilometer shot from his
chimney to a tree at his RV, I clearly suggested almost ANY Ubiquiti device
will work - where I simply told him to START with the PowerBeam and work
his way down from there by way of comparison.

So, stop building your own imaginary strawman around the PowerBeam.
o It happens to simply be what I have lying around for my examples
<https://i.postimg.cc/vT0Krpfc/laptop-nanobeam-horn.jpg>

While you built an imaginary strawman around the pool, and, in fact, you
called it a "fucking pool", which is odd for an adult to be so angry about
something as simple as an example, my pool happens to be barely visible
from the house (it's hilly terrain and we have 40 acre zoning, so you can't
even put up two houses if you only have 79 acres).

But the pool was simply an example - where it could be your driveway gate,
which is clearly not even close to the house, and it could be the entrance
to the private road, which also, is a half mile from the house, etc.

For you to focus on the strawman of a "fucking pool", and specifically to
then focus on the fact that you think everything anyone owns is "next to
the house", simply shows how narrow minded people are when they are intent
on building imaginary strawmen, just so that they can shoot them down.

Powerbeams are appropriate for miles long links. Going less than a
couple of miles? Then use a nano loco or a nano.

See above about building an imaginary strawman about powerbeams, Johann
o In addition, what do you ignore you can lower Tx power?

My problem with the "lower power" devices is the same I have with "lower
powered engines" or with buying tools that are "lower power"...
a. The higher-power devices are no more or less difficult to set up
b. They're not all that much cheaper either, surprisingly, don't you think?
c. They're far more re-purposeable, which, for example, I do all the time

For just one simple example, if we wanted to, we could dial this spare horn
down to well below legal limits, and, instead of cluttering the shelves, it
would become instantly useful to turn a dumb switch into an access point,
would it not?
<https://i.postimg.cc/JhyCRT69/horn-to-switch.jpg>

Likewise, keeping in mind the speed of the slowest device rules, if we
wanted to pull an old router out of the parts box to attach a spare horn to
it, wouldn't that also instantly extend the range of that spare router.
<https://i.postimg.cc/25NdBZ7f/horn-to-router.jpg>

Since you harp on the powerbeam, the point isn't any "specific" device.
o The point is that the overall concept works - does it not?

You have some sort of fetish with interfering with everyone else's wifi
signals? Goddamn.. there's a limited number of channels. If I can pick
up your pool WiFi 10 miles away, you're doing shit wrong and you're
being an asshole.

First off, your "fucking pool" comment shows how YOUR mind works.
o Secondly, this comment above, shows us how YOUR mind works.

Your mind concocts all sorts of imaginary nefarious conspiracies
o Why haven't you accused me of watching kiddy porn at the "fucking pool"?

Why not accuse me of robbing bank, Johann?
o Why not accuse me of hiding dead bodies in the "fucking pool", Johann?

What's to stop you, Johann, from building ANY IMAGINARY STRAWMEN you want?
o Your imaginary strawmen show how YOUR mind works, Johann, not mine.

First off, as I said, we have 40 acre zoning here...
o So if you have 79 acres, you can only build one house

Secondly, as I said, you can dial down the transmit power on these devices
o I'm kind of surprised you appear completely unaware of that basic fact

Since you consistently build imaginary strawmen & you ignore basic fact
o May I ask you, Johann, if you're aware you can dial down the Tx power?

(See also my explanation that you don't have to use the device that I
simply happen to have at hand, and, that you want to be able to re-purpose
the device, and, these devices don't cost all that much different.)

We think differently, Johann.
o I'm more trusting than you Johann. More innocent.
o I'm always purposefully helpful.

Bullshit. You're worse than someone who doesn't know what they're doing.
You THINK you know what you're doing and you think you're an expert.

I'm not afraid of facts like you are Johann...
o So I simply ask you to "name just one" post of mine where I said that.

Name just one.

What's funny is that you build strawmen left and right, Johann.
o I never once said nor implied I was an expert.

In fact, much like Jeff Liebermann constantly does (history shows), I've
said numerous times that both you and he know far more than I do.

What's interesting Johann, is that your entire mind is filled to the brim
with these imaginary strawmen, that are based on exactly zero facts.

For example, you're aware these posts are "permanently" archived
(for some value of permanent, of course) in web-searchable sites, right?

If not, let me give you those web searchable sites, so that you are aware:
o <http://tinyurl.com/alt-internet-wireless>
o <http://tinyurl.com/alt-home-repair>
o <http://tinyurl.com/sci-electronics-repair>

And,
o <http://alt.internet.wireless.narkive.com>
o <http://alt.home.repair.wireless.narkive.com>
o <http://sci.electronics.repair.wireless.narkive.com>

I'm not afraid of facts, Johann.
o I don't build imaginary strawmen like you just did, Johann

Name just one post in this thread where I claim to be an expert.
o Name just one

Then you take it upon yourself you teach your incorrect knowledge to
others and when it's pointed out you have a tantrum about how people who
correct your WRONG terminology are trolls.

Johann,
You are acting like a child.
o Please stop it.

It's patently clear that I know what a decibel is, when it's used the way
we have been using them - where all the trolls can do is play silly games
about semantics.

The fact is that only a moron would be confused if I used the word decibel
to claim that the powerbeam horn was 4 decibels (e.g., if I didn't use the
"i" in a colloquial conversation).

The fact is that only a moron would be confused if I used the word decibel
to state that the PowerBeam Tx power could be dialed down to, oh, say, 10
decibels (e.g., if I didn't use the "m" in a colloquial conversation).

The fact is that only a moron would be confused if I used the word
"antenna" to state that I was aiming the "antenna" (aka the "radio") as I
am sitting on a tree limb in a conversation down to the guy on the ground
checking signal strength.

What you're doing, Johann, is playing silly childish games.
o Apparently you LOVE to play these silly childish games.

When you play them - I'll point out that EVERYONE knows this stuff.

I'll bet you correct everyone who types "internet" that the "i" is supposed
to be capitalized, otherwise, everyone will be confused.

HINT: You're simply proving how YOUR MIND works, Johann. Not mine.
o Your mind is clearly, that of a child.

Your own obsession with playing silly semantic games proves it.
o As does your obsession with building imaginary strawmen proves it.

Everything you post proves how YOUR MIND WORKS ... not mine.

WTF is it with you and potlucks? You see any food? It's a discussion
group. Same as they have always been.

Hmmmm... why does every post from you, Johann...
o Prove you own the mental abilities of a small child?

Did you even look up the definition of "potluck" before making that claim?
o Every adult knows you bring items of value to share at potlucks

Besides, it's just an analogy, Johann.
o The trolls play your silly game around analogies
Because it fits with their classic approach of building imaginary strawmen.

You can play all the silly childish games around analogies, Johann
o Playing your silly games shows how YOUR MIND works, Johann, not mine.

If you were an actual adult, Johann, you'd know this definition:
o Merriam Webster (Am)English definition of "potluck":
o whatever is offered or available in given circumstances or at a given time
<https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/potluck>

Please Johann, I beg of you...
o Stop proving in every post that you own the mind of a mere child.

Just stop it.
o Please try to act like adults act on the Usenet potluck.

You have so much value to share, and so much more knowledge than I
o That you're wasting that value by acting like a mere child

Everything you post proves how YOUR MIND WORKS ... not mine.

I think differently than the trolls (e.g., I never troll).
o I think differently than the "semantic expert" (e.g., I add value).

No, you don't. You insist on teaching newbies the wrong terms.

Jesus Christ Johann.

When I'm on a tree limb calling down to the guy at the base of the tree
asking if I'm at 50 decibels, do you really think he's going to ask me if
it's negative?

Only a moron doesn't know EVERYTHING you are quibbling about.

Your quibbling is simply proving how YOUR MIND works, Johann, not mine.
o Your mind is clearly that of a small child.

I just wish you'd stop proving that fact.

You're like a small child who just learned the word is "telephone", so you
correct everyone who uses the colloquial words "phone" to say that it could
mean "cellphone" or "landline" (and even then, you'd complain about the
lack of a space, as if any of that would confuse a real adult).

The only ones confused, Johann, are those who own the mind of children.

This post from you clearly shows, in the permanent archives for this ng
o That the entire post came from the mind of a small child.

Stop it, Johann.
O Try to act like an adult.

You're
like the electrician telling everyone they want 120 amps when you
actually mean volts. If you're going to teach someone, then teach them
CORRECTLY. You aren't doing anyone any favors by confusing them with
your terminology. When this person later talks to someone who actually
has a clue they're gonna sound like a damn idiot.

Johann,
Every statement from you is an imaginary strawman that YOU BUILT YOURSELF.

I realize it's an example (volts, watts, amps, etc.), but the fact remains
that you are quibbling about something that we clarified from the start.

I don't think ANYONE was confused about the use of "decibels" when talking
about antennas (in that we didn't use the "i") - unless - unless they are a
moron - or a child.

What you're saying is showing how YOUR MIND WORKS, Johann; not mine.
o Your mind is that of a child, Johann.

Clearly, for a child, we have to spell everything out, I agree.
o I just wish you didn't prove in every post you own the mind of a child.

And, I think differently than anyone who harranges us on "legal" issues
o When there is zero evidence that pjp is attempting to break the law

I never said he was.

You just proved, yet again, you own the mental capacity of a child, Johann.
o That's NOT an ad hominem attack - I'm simply pointing out a fact.

The fact you missed is pjp _did_ say he wasn't against breaking the law.
o The fact is though, that he doesn't need to (it's only 1 km LOS).

It's strange, but EVERY SINGLE STATEMENT from you in your post
o Proves, beyond doubt, you own the cognitive capacity of a small child

And that is NOT an ad hominem attack
o It simply is a statement that refers to your lack of comprehension

You made the grandiose statement that it was
impossible to break the law using Ubiquiti equipment.

Ah, I LOVE how you again prove to own the mind of a small child, Johann.
o Notice your use of "grandiose" Johann

And yet, the fact shows I peppered my statements with qualifiers such as
"IMHO", and "AFAIK", and I even agreed with you when you showed otherwise.

Notice something very strange about people like you Johann
o You were proven a child so many times, it bothers you that you ARE one

So you make up this completely imaginary strawman around "grandiose"
o When clearly, I had peppered that claim with humble qualifiers

What your post clearly shows, Johann, is you own the mind of a child.

> I showed that's patently false.

And I agreed with you - like any adult would, Johann.

The fact you act like a child is when you build your imaginary strawmen.

Why do you consistently build these imaginary strawmen, Johann?
o I don't know why.

I think it's because your brain can't handle facts like an adult should.
o But I'm not sure.

All I know is that your entire post clearly shows you own the mind...
o Of a child.

Your entire premise - is imaginary - built only out of your own mind.
o Like Santa Claus & the Easter Bunny are imaginary to a small child.

They aren't fool-proof devices. Build an idiot proof
device and nature will invent a better idiot. The ONLY reason I brought
it up was your asinine statement that it wasn't possible. An EXPERT
would have known that it was SIMPLE to do.

Your claim that I claimed to be an "expert" is based on what?
o HINT: I never claim to be an expert ... so it's based on 0 facts.

Name just once, in my entire decades-long history on Usenet, Johann
o Where I claim to be an expert.

Name just one.

HINT:
Your entire belief system is entirely imaginary, like that of a child.
o It's based on exactly 0 facts.

And then we can get back to adding value on Usenet.
o Deal?

What value? The value of you teaching shit incorrectly?
Here's a good rule of thumb. When everyone else thinks you're an
asshole, it's the height of self delusion to declare that EVERYONE else
is wrong.

Hehhehheh... again, this post shows how YOU THINK...

Since I'm an adult, my belief system is _based_ on facts.
o Your belief system, Johann, is apparently completely imaginary.

I can easily prove your belief system, Johann, is wholly imaginary
o With just three words.

It's the simplest test there is, of imaginary belief systems, Johann
o Just three words

Here's the test of your imaginary belief system, Johann
o Name just one

Yup. Name just one fact that your imaginary belief system is based on.
o That is, name an _adult_ here, who "thinks I'm an asshole".

Notice the qualifier, Johann, a very important qualifier indeed.
o Name an adult on this newsgroup who said I'm an asshole in this thread.

Name just one.

HINT: You also said "everyone", but you can't even find a single one.

Your belief system, Johann, is completely imaginary.
o It's based on exactly 0 facts.

Each time you post, Johann, you prove this statement valid.

his exes are "bitches". One common thread in all those marriages. The
guy! Likewise, if all these people are "trolls" then you need some self
reflection pal.

Hey Johann,
Given I am an adult, I always pass the simplest of tests of belief systems.

Yup. My belief systems are BASED on facts (it's how adult minds work).

I can even easily list the people I call "trolls", Johann, simply because
they prove time and again to provide zero value to technical threads.

Want me to name just one trolls, Johann?
o HINT: Count the number of times Snit (aka Fox's Mercantile) posted
(where, out of more than a dozen, maybe even a score, he only posted
factual items of any value once (and that was just today only).

Clearly Fox's Mercantile trolled this thread like you can't believe.

But there's more (way more) to my adult belief system, Johann.

While you will fail the simplest "name just one" test of imaginary belief
systems, Johann, I can name all the trolls who trolled this thread.

In fact, I could predict that they would troll this thread BEFORE I even
opened up the thread, Johann.

That's because I own an adult belief system based on facts.

The fact is, these are common trolls (many of whom trolled this thread):
o Alan Baker <nunya@ness.biz>
o Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com>
o Andreas Rutishauser <andreas@macandreas.ch>
o BK@Onramp.net
o Beedle <Beedle@dont-email.me>
o "Boris T." <bt@lsd.invalid> (a common troll)
o Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid>
o Char Jackson <none@none.invalid>
o Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com>
o Cindy Hamilton <angelicapaganelli@yahoo.com> (never posts any value)
o "Cybe R. Wizard" <cybe_r_wizard@WizardsTower.invalid> (always a child)
o Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> (sometimes, but only rarely posts as an adult)
o David Catterall <djcatt@eircom.net> (a common troll)
o Davoud <star@sky.net>
o Diesel <me@privacy.net> (aka Dustin Cook, mentally scary)
o Ed Pawlowski <esp@snet.xxx> (poser, makes believe he has knowledge)
o Elden <usenet@moondog.org>
o Elfin <elfinarc6@gmail.com> (aka Lloyd, aka Lloyd Parsons)
o Fox's Mercantile <jdangus@att.net> Jeff (an utter moron in all ways)
o "G. B" <gb@gb.com>
o Hemidactylus <ecphoric@allspamis.invalid>
o Idaho Homo Joe <dick_lick@aol.com> (worthless common moron troll)
o Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> (mostly is an adult but often is a child)
o John Gabriel <NoSpam@nospam.net> (can only troll)
o joe <none@domain.invalid> (rarely, but sometimes posts as an adult would)
o Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch>
o Johan <JHvB@nospam.invalid>
o John Doe <always.look@message.header> worthless posts always
o John McWilliams <jpmcw@comcast.net>
o John-Del <ohger1s@gmail.com>
o Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com>
o Ken Hart <kwhart1@frontier.com> (sometimes posts on linux as an adult)
o Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies>
o Lloyd <elfinarc6@gmail.com> (aka "Elfin")
o Lloyd Parsons <lloydp211@gmail.com> (aka "Elfin")
o Lucifer <LuciferMorningstar@bigpond.com> (plays silly semantic games)
o Meanie <Me@gmail.com>
o Shemp14 <shemp14@outlook.com>
o nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> (bullshitter par excellence)
o Nil <rednoise9@REMOVETHIScomcast.net>
o Panthera Tigris Altaica <northerntiger@outlook.com>
o Paul Raymond (aka porn king) <arlingholder@nospam.net> (porn obsessed)
o "pfjw@aol.com" <peterwieck33@gmail.com> Peter Wieck, Melrose Park, PA
o Rene Lamontagne <rlamont@shaw.ca> (always posts as a child would post)
o Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> wholly immune to basic facts
o "R.Wieser" <address@not.available> (aka Rudy Wieser) (always a child)
o Sandman <mr@sandman.net> (hates facts)
o Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com>
o shemp14@outlook.com
o Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> (aka Michael Glasser, troll's troll)
o Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net>
o Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net>
o Wolf K <wolfmac@sympatico.ca> (always posts as a child)
o Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>

One place you can help advise pjp (and the rest of us as a result) is how
you'd recommend he "power" the tree radio at the RV.

I dunno. Maybe that fucking generator he mentioned?

Again, you consistently failed to comprehend basic facts, Johann.
o You completely whooshed on what the basic question was Johann.

You prove, again, you own the mental comprehension of a small child.
o That's not an ad hominem attack - it's just pointing out what you post

The question wasn't about the "fucking generator", Johann.
o It was about powering the devices from the DC battery in the RV

That you _missed_ that basic question, is yet another indicator, Johann
o That you keep proving to own the mental comprehension of a child.

Based on what you post.


--
Merriam Webster (Am)English definition of "potluck":
o whatever is offered or available in given circumstances or at a given time
<https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/potluck>

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

One suspects that the accretion of slime that calls itself Arlen Holder (at this moment) is unemployed and institutionalized. Otherwise, it would never have the time for all this garbage.

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 00:32:05 -0700, Johann Beretta
<beretta@nun-ya-bizness.com> wrote:

You're not doing the newbies any favors. You're starting them off
turned in the wrong direction. It's because of clueless asshats that
the rest of us are having to move to 24 GHz where you CANNOT interfere
with our transmissions no matter how hard you try, through malice or
INCOMPETENCE.

I know of several 24 GHz links that is getting trashed by cellular
backhauls using the same unlicensed technology. The problem is that
getting a PtP link licensed and properly coordinated in a dense urban
or mountain top environment is becoming increasingly difficult and
lengthy. Service providers want something they can install quickly
and 24 GHz currently meets most of the requirements. The interference
is coming from other 24 GHz radios that are along the line of sight,
or co-located on adjacent rooftops, adjacent towers, or mountain top.

For short hops, the big move is to V-Band, 60 GHz, WiGig, or 802.11ad
or maybe the new and improved 802.11ay. What makes these work is
atmospheric oxygen absorption. At short ranges, the signal is there.
However, put enough distance and air in between endpoints, and the
signal drops quite rapidly. 802.11ay will allegedly work to 300-500
meters range under ideal conditions (no rain, no snow, no fog, etc):

"802.11ay WiFi @ 60 GHz (Millimeter frequencies)"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KGsw1QsxqE>

"60GHz Wireless:
<https://www.60ghz-wireless.com>

MikroTik RBLHGG-60adkit (60 GHz 802.11ad):
<https://mikrotik.com/product/wireless_wire_dish>
<https://www.amazon.com/Mikrotik-RBLHGG-60ADKIT-MikroTik-Wireless-Wire/dp/B07CNSM2JL>

MikroTik RBSXTsq-60ad (60 GHz 802.11ad):
<https://mikrotik.com/product/sxtsq_lite60>
<https://www.amazon.com/Mikrotik-RBSXTsq-60ad-802-11ad-Multipoint-Connections/dp/B07P683PMQ/>

MikroTik antennas and range selection:
<https://i.mt.lv/cdn/rb_files/antenas-160404123306.pdf>

Ubiquiti has it's equivalent AirFiber 60 product, but it's only
available to early access program customers in the US. Some clues in
the FCC ID data:
<https://fccid.io/SWX-AF60>
Ignore the Cyrillic and click on the photo for a photo slide show:
<http://www.ubnt.su/ubiquiti/airfiber-60.htm>





--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Johann Beretta]

On 10/23/19 10:49 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 00:32:05 -0700, Johann Beretta
beretta@nun-ya-bizness.com> wrote:

You're not doing the newbies any favors. You're starting them off
turned in the wrong direction. It's because of clueless asshats that
the rest of us are having to move to 24 GHz where you CANNOT interfere
with our transmissions no matter how hard you try, through malice or
INCOMPETENCE.

I know of several 24 GHz links that is getting trashed by cellular
backhauls using the same unlicensed technology. The problem is that
getting a PtP link licensed and properly coordinated in a dense urban
or mountain top environment is becoming increasingly difficult and
lengthy. Service providers want something they can install quickly
and 24 GHz currently meets most of the requirements. The interference
is coming from other 24 GHz radios that are along the line of sight,
or co-located on adjacent rooftops, adjacent towers, or mountain top.

So far most of the gear I have come across is rated at 2 miles or less
or in a single instance I'm aware of, Ubiquiti's AirFiber 24 can do
about 5 miles. I'm not saying you're incorrect, just that I suspect
interference will be the exception and not the rule. A cell tower
that's trashing someone's link is also probably having it's own link
trashed, or at least degraded.

For short hops, the big move is to V-Band, 60 GHz, WiGig, or 802.11ad
or maybe the new and improved 802.11ay. What makes these work is
atmospheric oxygen absorption. At short ranges, the signal is there.
However, put enough distance and air in between endpoints, and the
signal drops quite rapidly. 802.11ay will allegedly work to 300-500
meters range under ideal conditions (no rain, no snow, no fog, etc):

For very short hops. My Mikrotik 60G is rated at a mile. I haven't
deployed it yet, but from what i understand if one wants it to punch
through rain, then one probably should not exceed 3/4 mile and 1/2 mile
might be more realistic during heavy downpours.

<snip>

Everything I'm hearing about 24 GHz has been positive. I don't doubt
that there will be some cases of interference, but with WISP gear (I
don't know what the cell sites are using) having a 2-5 mile range is a
hell of a lot better than the nearly unlimited range of 5 GHz.

 

[Xeno]

On 23/10/19 8:18 am, Arlen _G_ Holder wrote:

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 04:29:00 -0700, Johann Beretta wrote:

For example, would you recommend just mooching off the RV battery?

You tell me. A Powerbeam, if you insist on using it for a lousy
kilometer, draws about 10 watts. You think an RV battery can handle
that? You're the expert. You think a 40 or 50 amp-hour battery can
handle a 10 watt draw?

This is the FIRST statement you've made in the post I'm responding to,
Johann, that indicates you can post valuable information with purposefully
helpful intent - which I appreciate - on behalf of Usenet archives.

The reason I asked you is that question is that, as I had stated prior, I
have no experience with running these devices off the grid, but where I
know the WISP professionals have solar-charged battery backups at many of
their remote sites.

Given I have no experience running these devices off the grid, I'm not sure
if the WISP professionals run these devices directly off the 12VDC though,
or via inverters, as with the case of the RV, I'm not sure if pjp could run
off the inverter or off the battery itself, as, I said, I have no
experience running these devices off the grid.

Assuming 1 amp at 12 volts DC (i.e., 12 Watts), the question is how long
can an RV battery realistically hold out.

I never owned an RV, so I don't even know how large they are, or how many
they have, so, googling, the first hit was this "Basic RV Electricity"
o <https://rvservices.koa.com/rvinformation/rvmaintenance/basic-rv-electricity.asp
o <https://www.outdoorsy.com/blog/rv-electricity-basics

I only skimmed those RV basics, as I was just looking for the amp hour
rating of the typical batteries.

Searching Amazon for RV batteries, this "WindyNation" 100amp-Hour battery
shows up a lot so let's start with that for now as a starting point:
o WindyNation 100 amp-Hour 100AH 12V 12 Volt AGM Deep Cycle Sealed Lead Acid Battery - Solar RV UPS Off-Grid (1 pc 100 amp-Hour)
https://www.amazon.com/WindyNation-amp-Hour-100AH-Sealed-Battery/dp/B07BS1ZB15/

So, at 1 amp discharge rate, it seems that battery could last about 4 days
in perfect situations, where, we have to leave a reserve (I assume, unless
it's a spare battery) cutting that in half, and if we assume other
non-ideal conditions, we can cut that half in half, so, it seems, given
that battery, at a 1 amp discharge rate, it would last an entire day.

I'm sure you'll let me know where my arithmetic is off, if it is off.
o I love to be corrected with facts

Before you go running off about how long a battery with X amp hours will
last, you need to be appraised of the facts of life with regard to
batteries.

The golden rules of deep cycle batteries are:

Don't flatten your battery.

Don't regularly take out more than 40%.

In case you do flatten or exceed 40% discharge of a deep cycle battery,
don't leave it in a discharged state, charge it back up ASAP.

Use the right size and type of charger

Know the settings on the charger and have it on the right setting

Keep the battery on a trickle-charge when not in use

If not maintained on a trickle charger, top up the battery charge monthly.

Failure to follow the above rules will dramatically shorten the life of
your battery.

And one more point, a standard lead acid battery, as used in vehicles,
etc, should not be regularly discharged more than 20%.

<snip useless diatribe>



--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

 

[Arlen _G_ Holder]

On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 23:22:01 +1100, Xeno wrote:

Before you go running off about how long a battery with X amp hours will
last, you need to be appraised of the facts of life with regard to
batteries.

The golden rules of deep cycle batteries are:

Don't flatten your battery.

Don't regularly take out more than 40%.

In case you do flatten or exceed 40% discharge of a deep cycle battery,
don't leave it in a discharged state, charge it back up ASAP.

Hi Xeno,

Almost everyone who has posted, is very well known to all of us, Xeno.

Thanks for that advice, as you've always been very helpful, and observant
of details that many have missed (e.g., the specific tire wear peculiar to
mountain roads due to suspension forces related to positive camber which
drastically affects the outside edge of front tires).
<https://i.postimg.cc/g004XCLW/mount37.jpg>

That's a factual detail that has stood the test of time, which NOBODY else
noticed, nor could they explain, until you explained it to the rest of us.
<https://i.postimg.cc/vZs6Vm3B/mount35.jpg>

Hence, I have reason to admire your factual acuity, where, in this case, I
also respect your judgment, and, in fact, the record shows, we were
"almost" as conservative as you suggest, where we assumed 25% of the rated
capacity in our calculations (instead of 20%).

It need not be too often stated that most of us (all?) on Usenet are old
men, with many decades of experience with automotive batteries (in all
sorts of climes around the world).

Use the right size and type of charger
Know the settings on the charger and have it on the right setting
Keep the battery on a trickle-charge when not in use
If not maintained on a trickle charger, top up the battery charge monthly.
Failure to follow the above rules will dramatically shorten the life of
your battery.
And one more point, a standard lead acid battery, as used in vehicles,
etc, should not be regularly discharged more than 20%.

Thanks for the explanation.
o We already calculated at 25% but we can easily adjust down to 20%.

At 20% rated RV battery capacity, the setup will last about 20 hours.

> <snip useless diatribe>

Hi Xeno,

I consider that comment pejorative; and I tell you so.
o Rightly or wrongly, there was a reason for what you called a "diatribe".

You may need to understand that I take on the tone of the poster.
o It's a tactical technique called "mirroring" implied intent.

The intent is to funnel the poster into being an adult.

It works well with adults.
o There is really no technique that works well with trolls

Since, clearly, they posted to this thread many times
o Even as they were never once fed.

--
After decades on Usenet potlucks, it's clear who brings value to share.