Just curious how far your Wi-Fi access point is from your de

[Arlen _G_ Holder]

On Mon, 14 Oct 2019 12:44:29 -0700, Johann Beretta wrote:

> Uh.. Yeah.. Your "desktop" isn't connecting to jack squat.

Hi Johann Beretta,

Here's a shot of the barn desktop which shows that setup better:
<https://i.postimg.cc/6QJqK6Cj/desktop02.jpg>

Notice that barn desktop has no WiFi card; it only has Ethernet.

And yet, it's connected by WiFi using this Mikrotik equipment:
<https://i.postimg.cc/yx4CgWYt/mikrotik-router-config.jpg>

Is that barn desktop connected to Wi-Fi over its Ethernet, or not?

When someone says "my desktop is connected to" the implication is that
you're connecting to something using the built-in wifi of the laptop.

You are astute enough to be worth further detail, as you know what you're
talking about (while others don't, so I simplified things for them).

For you, we can dive directly into the actual unexemplified details.
o Here is a more explicitly detailed set of pictures & screenshots & specs.

My desktop, at this very moment, doesn't even have built-in Wi-Fi, but it
does have built-in Ethernet (and yes, I'm using that term colloquially).
<https://i.postimg.cc/6QJqK6Cj/desktop02.jpg>

This is a shot of the radio configuration that Ethernet is tied to:
<https://i.postimg.cc/DfQJq437/mikrotikrouter.jpg>

The CAT5 out of the desktop connects to a $50 Mikrotik routerboard
<https://mikrotik.com/product/RB411>
o 300MHz CPU, 32MB RAM, 1xEthernet, miniPCI, serial port, RouterOS L3

With a 23dBm $50 card plugged into the routerboard's miniPCI slot
<https://mikrotik.com/product/R52NM>
o 2.4/5Ghz miniPCI 802.11a/b/g/n dual chain, 2x MMCX

Whose output is attached to a 15dBi $40 2.4GHz wiregrid antenna:
<https://www.streakwave.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=GD24-15-NM>

Where the signal strength, at this very moment, is about
-40dBm with a Tx/Rx CCQ of about 80%, S/N of about 75dB.
<https://i.postimg.cc/yx4CgWYt/mikrotik-router-config.jpg>

Does this detailed setup look more like what you were expecting to see?

Needless to say, there's no way you'd be making a 6 mile link at 144mbps
with the 30mw (average) laptop transmitter. You'd also need 20-30 feet
of elevation to keep the transmitter's Fresnel zones clear.

I live on the top of a mountain, overlooking the Silicon Valley.

If you only knew how many access points I can 'see', you'd be shocked
(I guess the theoretical number could perhaps be in the millions, in fact,
depending on antenna gain & radio sensitivity & noise floor on my side of
course, but I never counted them ... suffice to say it's a LOT).

--
You seem to have technical value to add; please add it so all benefit.

 

[Fox's Mercantile]

On 10/14/19 9:34 PM, Arlen _G_ Holder wrote:

Note the main reason for having to correct the typos is that those silly
little girls on this newsgroup who have nothing to add, will endlessly
quibble about the typos

This is a written medium.
If you can't be bothered to be concise and accurately convey an
idea, what makes you think we want to waste our time figuring out
what you meant.


--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

 

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 10/14/2019 11:55 PM, Arlen _G_ Holder wrote:

I live on the top of a mountain, overlooking the Silicon Valley.

Very fitting. You like to look down on people.

 

[%]

On 2019-10-14 9:03 p.m., Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 10/14/2019 11:55 PM, Arlen _G_ Holder wrote:


I live on the top of a mountain, overlooking the Silicon Valley.


Very fitting.  You like to look down on people.

i thought he looked like a fake tit

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 14 Oct 2019 12:44:29 -0700, Johann Beretta
<beretta@nun-ya-bizness.com> wrote:

When someone says "my desktop is connected to" the implication is that
you're connecting to something using the built-in wifi of the laptop.
Needless to say, there's no way you'd be making a 6 mile link at 144mbps
with the 30mw (average) laptop transmitter. You'd also need 20-30 feet
of elevation to keep the transmitter's Fresnel zones clear.

More like 46 to 57 feet antenna elevation for 80-100% Fresnel zone
clearance. Plug in 6 miles for the distance and 2.4 GHz for the
frequency:
<https://www.proxim.com/en/products/knowledge-center/calculations/calculations-fresnel-clearance-zone>
That also applies to objects along the line of sight, such as trees,
hills, buildings, towers, phone poles, and other obstructions.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Johann Beretta]

On 10/14/19 11:50 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Mon, 14 Oct 2019 12:44:29 -0700, Johann Beretta
beretta@nun-ya-bizness.com> wrote:
When someone says "my desktop is connected to" the implication is that
you're connecting to something using the built-in wifi of the laptop.
Needless to say, there's no way you'd be making a 6 mile link at 144mbps
with the 30mw (average) laptop transmitter. You'd also need 20-30 feet
of elevation to keep the transmitter's Fresnel zones clear.

More like 46 to 57 feet antenna elevation for 80-100% Fresnel zone
clearance. Plug in 6 miles for the distance and 2.4 GHz for the
frequency:
snip

You only need 60% clearance to achieve full speed. My fresnel calculator
says 56 feet for 2.4 GHz and 60% of 56 is 33.6. I was a bit off,
admittedly, but I was in the ballpark for an off-the-cuff estimate.

 

[Johann Beretta]

On 10/14/19 7:34 PM, Arlen _G_ Holder wrote:

Note the main reason for having to correct the typos is that those silly
little girls on this newsgroup who have nothing to add, will endlessly
snip

It's not quibbling to point out stuff that's patently incorrect. It
doesn't do someone following the post any favors to let incorrect terms
slip by. Microwave transceivers of the type we are discussing have
outputs measured in dBm, not dB. The m is an important qualifier. It
gives the goddamn baseline reference. 20 db means nothing. 20dbm means a
whole lot. How can someone know how to convert 20 dbm to milliwatts if
nobody gives the milliwatt reference?

It's also fairly obvious that someone is lacking in skill when they get
the terminology wrong. Would you trust a doctor that used the wrong
terms? I'd be highly suspicious of their training and I sure as hell
wouldn't let someone operate on me who kept referring to my tibia as a
cranium or something

You're passing yourself off as some sort of expert, from what I have
read of your posts, but I have serious reservations about taking you
seriously if you don't even know the lingua fraca of the industry.

I've been in this business, professionally, for almost a decade. I'd
barely rate myself as an expert (maybe more of a really skilled
journeyman). There's plenty of folks in this newsgroup who know a
shit-ton more than I, and they don't get the terms wrong, which is just
one minor indication they have a basic understanding of what they're
talking about. The information they contribute pads out the rest, but
they start with the basics and get them correct.

 

[Johann Beretta]

On 10/14/19 8:55 PM, Arlen _G_ Holder wrote:
<snip>

If you only knew how many access points I can 'see', you'd be shocked
snip

Unlikely. I own a wireless ISP (WISP) in Southern California. I've got a
number of Ubiquiti sectors and parabolics on mountain tops. I've picked
up signals (San Onofre Visitor WiFi as one example) from over 60 miles away.

 

[Arlen _G_ Holder]

On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 02:28:27 -0700, Johann Beretta wrote:

It doesn't do someone following the post any favors to let
incorrect terms slip by.

Hi Johann Beretta,

Johann, let's be realistic since we must assume "adults" live here.
<http://tinyurl.com/alt-home-repair>
<http://tinyurl.com/alt-internet-wireless>
<http://tinyurl.com/sci-electronics-repair>

Let's take advantage of your skills to FURTHER our capabilities!
o What would you suggest for a home computer to extend the wifi range?

Let's assume you only want to go another hundred yards (meters) or so.
o Or, maybe, you want the computer to connect to an AP only a mile away

What would you suggest to extend the Wi-Fi range of, oh, a typical desktop
or laptop, to a hundred meters (or to a mile, kilometer) further from where
it is currently maxing out?

Using your knowledge and intellect, Johann, what can you offer the team, by
way of ADDED ADULT TECHNICAL VALUE that furthers their ability to connect
to access points that they can't currently connect to, today?

If I'm using "decibels", and if someone on those three ngs doesn't know
what they mean, and if they're older than, oh, say, fifth grade, then there
is no hope for them anyway.

Seriously.
o What are they doing posting their drivel about decibels on those ngs, if
they're that ignorant of even the most basic of electronic terms.

They should just shut up if
(a) they don't care to have this kind of power at home
(b) they're so ignorant that the only thing they can find are typos
(c) all they do (endlessly, day in and day out), is troll
etc.

If they quibble about a misplaced "i" versus the "m", there's no hope for
them to ever add any adult value to any topic on this newsgroup, Johann.

Seriously.
o Only a moron would be confused by "decibel" in place of "dBm" or "dBi".

It's like quibbling over "yards" and "meters" when it doesn't matter.

A moron can't possibly add value
o And certainly not by playing silly games around "radio" or "decibel".

You do NOT seem to be a moron - so why don't you use your intellect to ADD
VALUE to the conversation, so that OTHERS can do what you and I can do.

What can we do, Johann?
o We can connect WiFi to access points that are much farther away
o With that, we can connect Ethernet to those distant access points
o For about the costs as people are paying today
o If they just knew how.

Specifically:
o If they knew what the potential distances might be (if they need them)
o And, if they knew what equipment to buy to get those distances
o Where this equipment is not likely to be found in local box stores.

I consider that knowledge good added value.
o If you don't consider that knowledge added value, then say so.

But please don't play childish games around typos & common terms.

> It's not quibbling to point out stuff that's patently incorrect.

I repeat that you seem to be the only one here who knows anything,
so I just want to ask you to ADD ON-TOPIC ADULT VALUE where you can.

If you find a "real" mistake, then, by all means, state your claim.
o I'm not afraid of facts because facts form the basis of my beliefs

However, don't play silly childish games around the use of the word "radio"
or "decibel" or "antenna" or "aerial", etc., since everyone KNOWS what we
mean when we talk colloquially about this stuff.

If they don't know, then they're simply too ignorant to educate anyway.
o I ask those morons to stop wasting our time on childish semantic drivel

Bear in mind I set up WISP, along with my neighbors, for about 100 homes,
where, trust me, here in the mountains above Silicon Valley, we're _all_
extremely well educated ... and where the fact is, NOBODY plays silly games
around decibels and the like. We don't even say the "negative", since we
KNOW that it's always going to be negative for example.

Only here, on Usenet, filled to the brim with poorly educated children, do
they incessantly quibble about silly stupid semantic games (including
thinkos and typos like accidentally switching the 'i' and 'm', when it
doesn't matter in the conversation since only a fool would be confused.

Microwave transceivers of the type we are discussing have
outputs measured in dBm, not dB.

Stop it Johann.

Just stop.

Playing silly games isn't going to help anyone.

Be an adult.

I can tell you know more than almost anyone who posted to date, Johann.
o Don't waste that knowledge on silly childish games Johann.

Try to use your knowledge to further what people here can do, Johann.

There are rarely people on this ng who know anything Johann, where you, and
people like Jeff Liebermann for example, can easily add more value than I
can.

But you're not going to add value by playing silly semantic games.
o It's like arguing that a tire isn't a wheel when someone says
o "How can I balance my tires at home?"

It's childish.

But worse - it's a complete waste of your otherwise appreciable skills.
o It's like quibbling over yards and meters, when it doesn't matter.

The m is an important qualifier. It
gives the goddamn baseline reference. 20 db means nothing. 20dbm means a
whole lot. How can someone know how to convert 20 dbm to milliwatts if
nobody gives the milliwatt reference?

See above.
o Everyone knows all this.

If, on a rooftop, I ask someone to "help me aim this antenna, will ya?"
I don't expect endless quibbling about antennas having a radio attached.

Everyone knows this stuff.
o Our goal, Johann, is to help them understand the stuff they don't know.

Which, as I see it for this thread:
o The distance that people have reported to connect to WiFi APs
o The ability to do that with any computer that has an Ethernet port
o Using equipment that costs about as much as what they're paying today
o But which is not sold in the typical consumer box stores they frequent

If you think the "added value" of this thread is to explain the difference
between a "decibel" and a "dBm", then, by all means, start your lecture.

But don't position that lecture as a "correction", since everyone _knows_
what the distinction is in colloquial speech, Johann. Everyone.

It's also fairly obvious that someone is lacking in skill when they get
the terminology wrong. Would you trust a doctor that used the wrong
terms? I'd be highly suspicious of their training and I sure as hell
wouldn't let someone operate on me who kept referring to my tibia as a
cranium or something

Aurgh. You insist on adding _negative_ value, when you can simply add
positive value by suggesting even _better_ ways to get WiFi distance at
home.

This is the datasheet for one of my radios, Johann:
<https://dl.ubnt.com/datasheets/rocketm/RocketM_DS.pdf>
Do you see the letters "dbi" _anywhere_ in that spec sheet, Johann?
o There are lots of "dbm" but no "dbi", Johann.

This is the datasheet for one of my antennas, Johann:
<https://dl.ubnt.com/datasheets/rocketdish/rd_ds_web.pdf>
Do you see the letters "dbm" _anywhere_ in that spec sheet, Johann?
o There are lots of "dbi" but no "dbm", Johann.

Do you think, even for a moment, that I don't know why, Johann?
o Let's stop this silly game playing, Johann

If you want to start a lecture on the distinction between a decibel and a
dBi and a dBm, then, by all means, start your lecture.

But do not position it as a "correction", since I said, from the start, I'm
using colloquial terms - and - I told you - in this post - that we are all
very well educated in this stuff Johann - so you should use your
appreciable education to further our knowledge.

Using your knowledge and intellect, Johann, what can you offer the team, by
way of ADDED ADULT TECHNICAL VALUE that furthers their ability to connect
to access points that they can't currently connect to, today?

You're passing yourself off as some sort of expert, from what I have
read of your posts, but I have serious reservations about taking you
seriously if you don't even know the lingua fraca of the industry.

Jesus Christ, Johann. Stop playing silly games.
o It's like quibbling over tires and wheels when it doesn't matter.

I'm asking others how far they connect via WiFi, and we received GOOD
answers from those others (one was up to 12 kilometers (7 miles), where, I
think you're smart enough to know that double that distance is possible
with this equipment we've been discussing (at both ends, of course).

If the equipment is only at one end, then it's drastically limited by the
weaker equipment, of course, but long distances are still possible.

One part of this thread's goal is to let the "adults" on this newsgroup
realize how far they can connect WiFi at the same costs as they pay now for
equipment.

For example, it amazes me that people buy "repeaters" in the local box
stores, when, for about the same price, they can buy this Mikrotik or
Ubiquiti equipment that gives them from ten times to a hundred times more
power (and hence, correspondingly, more distance).

> I've been in this business, professionally, for almost a decade.

Ah. I knew you had more knowledge than anyone yet, who has posted!

Good. I like smart people. I can learn from smart people.

Let's spend our energies on ADVANCING our knowledge, instead of playing
silly little semantic games. Shall we?

What would you suggest to the users here, for example, if they needed to
extend their WiFi range of their desktop computer, to, oh, let's say, 100
yards (100 meters)?

HINT: Do not quibble that a yard and a meter are not exactly equivalent!

I'd
barely rate myself as an expert (maybe more of a really skilled
journeyman).

I could INSTANTLY tell, from your post, that you knew more than anyone else
who has posted yet, simply based on the astute observations you made.

Let's take advantage of your skills to FURTHER our capabilities!
o What would you suggest for a home computer to extend the wifi range?

Let's assume you only want to go another hundred yards (meters) or so.
o Or, maybe, you want the computer to connect to an AP only a mile away

What would you suggest to extend the Wi-Fi range of, oh, a typical desktop
or laptop, to a hundred meters (or to a mile, kilometer) further from where
it is currently maxing out?

There's plenty of folks in this newsgroup who know a
shit-ton more than I, and they don't get the terms wrong, which is just
one minor indication they have a basic understanding of what they're
talking about. The information they contribute pads out the rest, but
they start with the basics and get them correct.

Let's take advantage of that adult technical value, if it exists, Johann.
o What would they suggest for a home computer to extend the wifi range?

Let's assume we only want to go another hundred yards (meters) or so.
o Or, maybe, we want the computer to connect to an AP only a mile away

What would you (or they) suggest to extend the Wi-Fi range of, oh, a
typical desktop or laptop PC, to a hundred meters (or to a mile, kilometer)
further from where it is currently maxing out?

Silence?

--
When people stop playing childish games, they can focus on adding value.

 

[Arlen _G_ Holder]

On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 02:10:34 -0700, Johann Beretta wrote:

Unlikely. I own a wireless ISP (WISP) in Southern California. I've got a
number of Ubiquiti sectors and parabolics on mountain tops. I've picked
up signals (San Onofre Visitor WiFi as one example) from over 60 miles away.

Hi Johann Beretta,

Usenet is a potluck - where everyone brings what value they can, to share.

to that end, I could tell, instantly, that you had more you could share
than most people here (and we already know about Jeff Liebermann, who
happens to live near where I am, who also knows a lot about this stuff).

This is great information that you are fully aware of the WiFi power of the
type of equipment that we've been trying to discuss here as adults.

What brand do you mostly prefer in your WISP business?
o And what specific model of radios?

Here, near where Jeff Liebermann lives (other side of the hill), we all
started with the bullets, and then we trashed them for the nano's, which we
trashed for the 2.4 GHz rockets, and then, finally, we're kind of happy on
the 5GHz rockets.

Less noise for sure.

Since we remove the "old stuff", we end up with a lot of Mikrotik
equipment, but we're mostly Ubiquiti.

How about you?
o What brand/model equipment do you prefer to erect on rooftops, and why?

 

[dpb]

On 10/15/2019 11:09 AM, Arlen _G_ Holder wrote:
....

o Only a moron would be confused by "decibel" in place of "dBm" or "dBi".
....

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it
means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”

--

 

[Arlen _G_ Holder]

On Mon, 14 Oct 2019 23:50:03 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

More like 46 to 57 feet antenna elevation for 80-100% Fresnel zone
clearance. Plug in 6 miles for the distance and 2.4 GHz for the
frequency:
https://www.proxim.com/en/products/knowledge-center/calculations/calculations-fresnel-clearance-zone
That also applies to objects along the line of sight, such as trees,
hills, buildings, towers, phone poles, and other obstructions.

Hi Jeff,

You're aware we've been fumbling about this WISP stuff on our side of the
hill for years (not as long as you, but still years), where, we started
with Hughes, then Verizon (now Frontier, I think), then Surfnet, and
Hilltop, Ridge, Cooper, ViaSat, etc., you name it, we've tried it.

Since it's a neighborhood effort, we've been learning on our own.
o Mostly from failures - but we've had some good success also.

As such, you're likely aware, if you remember, we started with Mikrotik:
<https://i.postimg.cc/DfQJq437/mikrotikrouter.jpg>
Then we went to bullets, which were infinitely more malleable:
<https://i.postimg.cc/SK04C6zL/ubiquiti-bullet-M2-hp.jpg>
Then the problematic nanobeams and the more reliable powerbeams
<https://i.postimg.cc/CLBXc080/antenna03.jpg>
Then, the vastly more satisfying 2.4 GHz rockets:
<https://i.postimg.cc/nrkz5mgs/antenna01.jpg>
And finally, for the most part, we've settled on 5GHz rockets:
<https://i.postimg.cc/yNXw0TZS/antenna02.jpg>

Using the spare equipment from all the mistakes, sort of like this:
<https://i.postimg.cc/6QJqK6Cj/desktop02.jpg>

Given that progression of mistakes, my current access point, for the
Internet itself, has pretty good numbers of around 55 decibels (let's not
quibble about the type or sign) with a clear view of the similarly setup
access point miles away as shown in this screenshot below:
<https://i.postimg.cc/DZccY2YD/decibels.jpg>

Where those numbers can be obtained by any user who has the line of sight
necessary (as always) who also has the same equipment on the other side.

The main advantage though, of this thread, is to ascertain how far can
people connect, line of sight, when they only have this equipment on one
end.

To that end, my fundamental question, where I'd love to learn more from
people like you and Johann who seem to know a LOT more than most people
here, is what distances do you think are possible (assuming wholly
unobstructed views and sufficient heights to clear the primary Fresnel
Zone) for:
a. A laptop or desktop that has Ethernet
b. With AC power always assumed to be nearby (for the POE & desktop)
c. With one of these antennas
<https://i.postimg.cc/XJChDCPr/spare-access-points.jpg>
With the Ethernet port set up sort of like this:
<https://i.postimg.cc/Gh22Sb2N/desktop.jpg>

Given ideal conditions (which pretty much exist where I live), how far do
you think we could reasonably connect if we only had this equipment on one
end, where, of course, the other end matters.

Let's assume the other end is, oh, I don't know, a typical SOHO WiFi router
(what's that ... something like ... oh, maybe 18 decibels ... where I know
and remember that you've studied this stuff and they lie in the specs - so
we could simply assume whatever you think is the "real" EIRP obtained.

In summary, under ideal conditions, with, oh, say, a Rocket M5 as shown
above, how far do you think a laptop/desktop could connect to a decent SOHO
WiFI router line of sight (with the primary Fresnel Zone assumed clear).

--
PS: Did you get hit with the PG&E power outage this week?
I filed a formal complaint with the CPUC that PG&E was playing games.

 

[Johann Beretta]

On 10/14/19 7:05 PM, Arlen _G_ Holder wrote:

Note that for about the price of a typical SOHO router of about 15 to 20
decibels, this access point allows up to 27 dBi + 15 dBm = 42 dB, which is
vastly more powerful than any typical SOHO router access point you've ever
experienced in your entire life, I'd wager.

You are in violation of federal law. The MAXIMUM permissible antenna
gain, in the 2.4 GHz spectrum, with a 27 dBm transmitter is 9 dBi.

Of course it's more powerful than anything anybody has experienced. It's
illegal.

Are you actually advocating for this?

 

[Arlen _G_ Holder]

On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 16:25:00 -0400, Paul wrote:

> I wonder what the EIRP of that contraption is ?

Hi Paul,

You're generally purposefully helpful, as am I, where both of us like to
help people do what we can do (it's why I've written so many tutorials on
Usenet, for example), and, where we both learn from others who share their
knowledge, in that process.

Hence, I'm happy to answer all your questions (if I can).
o I always mirror the implied intent of every post (by strategic design).

You picked out a low power but conveniently small 1-piece contraption.
<https://i.postimg.cc/CLBXc080/antenna03.jpg>

I looked but it doesn't actually say on the outside the model, where it's
been so long that I've had it that I forgot exactly what it is (and I don't
want to log in as I'd have to connect it directly to a laptop, etc.), and
there are so many different PowerBeam models anyway ... but it's likely a
powerbeam PBE-M5-400 (or similar) where we can look at the specs here:
<https://dl.ubnt.com/qsg/PBE-M5-400/PBE-M5-400_EN.html>

Which shows that nice little $100 5GHz unit to be about 26 dBm transmit
power plus about 25 dBi antenna gain, for an EIRP of about 51 decibels,
which isn't too bad for less than a hundred bucks.
<https://www.ispsupplies.com/Ubiquiti-PBE-M5-400>

Bear in mind a "typical" SOHO router for about the same price, is, oh, I
don't know, something like 20 decibels if you're lucky (if I'm wrong, it's
OK to ream me with facts).

Think about the HUGE difference in power, where each set of 10 decibels is
ten times the power, so 51 - 20 is about 30 decibels different, where
that's 10 x 10 x 10 is about one thousand times the power of that typical
SOHO router ... at about the same price.

BTW, those numbers seem kind of high to me - but I took 'em out of that
spec sheet - where I always expect the power to be an order of magnitude or
even two orders of magnitude better than your typical SOHO router - but not
three orders of magnitude.

> It's a clever scheme from that perspective.

There are lots of similar one-piece models, where this one inside contains:
o CPU Atheros MIPS 74 Kc, 560 MHz, 64 MB DDR2, 8 MB flash
o Network 1 x 10/100/1000 Ethernet port, 5725 to 5850 MHz, 150+Mbs
<https://www.ui.com/airmax/powerbeam/>

> Is that intended for unlicensed or licensed operation ?

Nobody breaks the rules with these things, for a whole bunch of reasons.
I could list the reasons, but they're all good reasons, so I won't bother.

You just power them up, and set them up like you do any router today.
o Set them up as an access point (e.g., to paint the pool), or,
o Set them up as your computer network interface (I do both).
<https://i.postimg.cc/6QJqK6Cj/desktop02.jpg>

That's kind of the point of this thread, which is to let people know that
this kind of power (many times what they have today for sure) is available
to them, if they need it, at about the same price they paid for their
existing stuff.

You just have to know what to buy - and where to buy it:
<https://www.amazon.com/Ubiquiti-PBE-M5-400-2-pack-PowerBeam-AirMAX/dp/B00UZ03UUW>

> Seems a bit peppy for unlicensed operation (with a name like PowerBeam).

Actually, that's just marketing.
<https://www.ui.com/airmax/powerbeam/>

What's nice about these units is that they're really small, light,
easy to install, nothing to connect (it just snaps together), etc.

And, of course, if those specs are right, you get up to a thousand times
the power of your typical repeater you buy in the box store, for just about
the same price (about $100).

Let me know if you have other questions.
o The really powerful stuff on my shelf are the rockets, by the way.
<https://i.postimg.cc/XJChDCPr/spare-access-points.jpg>

Note: It's a pleasure to move forward, technically, instead of having to
deal with explaining that a decibel is a decibel and that a radio is a
radio, and that an antenna is an antenna, etc, since that's just a waste of
everyone's time (as only those who can't contribute any adult value
whatsoever always seem to be the ones who complain about that silly stuff).

--
The main point is that all this power is available to all of us, at the
same cost as what we've been using up until now - where - to get this power
- you simply need to know what to buy (the setup is trivial).

 

[Arlen _G_ Holder]

On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 12:38:24 -0700, Johann Beretta wrote:

You are in violation of federal law. The MAXIMUM permissible antenna
gain, in the 2.4 GHz spectrum, with a 27 dBm transmitter is 9 dBi.

Of course it's more powerful than anything anybody has experienced. It's
illegal.

Are you actually advocating for this?

Hi Johann Beretta,

Now you're back to your silly childish games, where people who play silly
childish games do it because they can't add any adult technical value.

BTW, by design, my posts always mirror the implied intent of the poster
o Where your implied intent is sinister

And dead wrong. (AFAIK)

For example, what do you think the EIRP is of this device Paul asked about?
<https://dl.ubnt.com/qsg/PBE-M5-400/PBE-M5-400_EN.html>

I never mind facts, so if you actually have facts for that wild-assed guess
of yours, you're welcome to 'ream me with facts' as I'm fond of saying.

I'm not a bullshitter Johann - so if you believe my facts are wrong, then
just show where they are wrong, as it seems, from your own statements, that
you may not even understand the basics of the business you 'say' you're in.

There is no way to violate the law if you use the equipment shown.

I repeat: As far as I know, there's no way to violate the law, according to
what I've read on the Ubiquiti support site (we could dig it up if you wish
to argue - but you have to supply more than just a wild guess on your part
as your supporting facts for your sinister accusation).

Johann - are you just trying to play silly games here on Usenet?
o Or do you have adult technical value to add to help everyone?

Your choice.

To my knowledge, the Ubiquiti support people say there is no way to violate
the law if the unit is used with the equipment it was designed for.

If you are as technical as you 'say' you are, then you already know that
the router software is set up "by country", where you are forced to pick
the country upon initial setup, where, since the US has the most power
anyway (as far as I can tell), you just pick the US if you're in the US.

Anyway, the main point of this entire thread is not for the trolls to have
a grand time playing their incessant silly worthless games... but to edify
the users here that;
a. They can get ten to one hundred (or more) the power of what they have
b. To either paint a far off area of the yard (like, oh, say, the pool)
c. Or to use as a 'network interface' out your computer Ethernet port
d. Where the setup is trivial (it's like setting up any router)
e. And, most importantly, where the cost is about the same.

The purpose of this thread is to let people know this, and, to find out,
from those adults who exist on this Usenet potluck, what success they've
had doing so.

If you have an ADULT technical question, please feel free to ask.

--
If you're merely a worthless troll - please stop playing childish games
around silly semenatics which simply prove you own the brain of a child.

 

[Arlen _G_ Holder]

On Wed, 16 Oct 2019 03:06:46 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert wrote:

Usually around 30. But that's because that's the legal limit for point
to multipoint intentional radiators. You can only run your setup at the
EIRP you've stated if it's point-to-point.

Hi Dan Purgert,

Thanks for reminding us the rules are different for...
o Point-to-MultiPoint [e.g., 2.4GHz is 36dBm (4watts)]
o Point-to-Point [e.g., 2.4GHz could be as high as 158 dB]
And...
o Frequency (e.g., 5GHz has different rules per frequency band)
Based on
o Antenna gain (i.e., for Point-to-Point but not for multipoint)
As described here: <https://www.air802.com/fcc-rules-and-regulations.html>
o And, of course, by country, as shown here:
<https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/wireless/wcs/3-2/configuration/guide/wcscfg32/wcscod.pdf>

But, it seems the US is always the best anyway...
o Are they?

For example, for fixed Point-to-Point it's 1 watt (+30 dBm) minus 1 dB for
each 3 dB of antenna gain greater than 6 dBi
<FCC Part 15.247(b) and (c), and Part 15.407(a)>

So it's not just a single number.
o But it's my understanding that the radio won't "let" you exceed limits
(That understanding is literally from conversing with Ubiquiti support.)

Usually around 30. But that's because that's the legal limit for point
to multipoint intentional radiators. You can only run your setup at the
EIRP you've stated if it's point-to-point.

BTW, I said I wouldn't respond to trolls in this thread, but your post
"seemed" purposefully helpful, where I'm always glad to be reamed by facts
(I _love_ facts - and - in fact - I live and breathe by sharing and up
taking facts), so I decided to take the risk by responding to what seems
like a purposefully helpful post of yours above, in your implied intent).

I just searched since we had covered the fact that routers are atrociously
weak (they won't even tell you the power in most cases - you have to go
back to the FCC documents in many cases).

The first hit is this one:
o Power Levels and Amount of Radiation
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.internet.wireless/Zux5NJVPNnc/0pOjYSFB4SUJ>
But that didn't help much but explain what we already quibbled about.

This second hit looked more promising
o How to calculate increase of home wireless router range?
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.internet.wireless/xMlrkG1V1L0/WP4Upe_SFxgJ>

Where there was an interesting rule of thumb which can help people here
figure out much power they need.

For example, it was stated in that thread:
o 3 dB increases the range by 140%
And, it was stated in that thread:
o 6 dB doubles the range
So if you needed double the range, something like
o 10 dB will get you a reliable connection

Later on in that thread, these numbers came out for typical routers:
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.internet.wireless/xMlrkG1V1L0/oUpjdhs-tesJ>
o "typical models seem to run between 15 dBm and 20 dBm"

That thread said the classic WRT54G router is 28 mWatts (about 14 dBm)
<https://www.rapidtables.com/electric/dBm.html>

Where this seemed to be a good rule of thumb for value calculation:
a) Power gain = Power2/Power1 = 251/28 milliwatts = 9x power gain
b) Range gain = sqrt(Power gain) = sqrt(9) = 3X range gain
c) Range = original range * range gain = 100 feet * 3 = 300 feet total
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.internet.wireless/xMlrkG1V1L0/mWibvjPJMdUJ>

If we add the 2 dBi that this post from a very reliable person claims the
rubber ducky antenna gives us, we get about 14 dBm + 2 dBi = 16 dB for the
classic WRT54G router.
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.internet.wireless/xMlrkG1V1L0/NXq6b6VFkUUJ>

I tried to find a listing on the net of the router specs, but they seem to
try to hide some of the most important comparitive information, like dB.
<https://www.pcmag.com/roundup/292110/the-best-wireless-routers>

> Sounds like you might be ...

Searching the Google archives, I find this thread about my radio:
o How many decibels does this router radio REALLY output?
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.internet.wireless/_tRYKf07H6w/8Ge_sDJwBwAJ>

There they discuss my radio, which turns out to be, for Paul an...
o Ubiquiti PowerBeam M2 400, which is only 26 decibels of transmit
o into an 18dBi antenna, which is legal for point-to-multipoint

Again, I don't think the router software "can" exceed legal limits,
according to what I've seen from Ubiquiti support personnel, but, maybe
they can exceed limits - I don't know - I never needed them to since
they're powerful enough to paint what I need painted.

And, of course, make sure you're not running hotter than is legal.
It's quite easy to do that.

While setting these powerful radios up is no more difficult than setting up
your much weaker SOHO router at home, I will repeat that it's my
understanding that you can't exceed the legal limits - based on what
Ubiquiti personal have told me...

But if you can, then all I need are real facts, as I love facts, but I
don't do well with guesses since anyone can guess about anything they want.

I still think, from past experience on the net, from somewhere, that a
typical SOHO router is pretty damn weak - but I'll look up some to figure
out what I can find by way of FCC documents, which usually are the best
source for transmit power and antenna gain.

--
Thankfully, this thread begins to share how to improve our WiFi range.

 

[Arlen _G_ Holder]

On Wed, 16 Oct 2019 00:35:22 -0400, Paul wrote:

PDF page 12 has the details. For omnidirectional usage. And for
directional usage.

It's the responsibility of the user to verify the numbers, as
both licensed and unlicensed equipment are available in the market.

https://www.engeniustech.com/resources/how-to-install-long-range-point-to-point-wireless-networking-links.pdf

Hi Paul,

Thanks for that powerpoint, where I have no idea how to buy "unlicensed"
equipment, nor do I care to even think about unlicensed stuff, since the
Ubiquiti stuff kills typical SOHO routers anyway.

The SOHO routers, at about the same price, are a puny 20 dB as far as I can
tell, whereas this Ubiquiti stuff, at the same price, is easily ten to a
hundred times better gain.

BTW, not the 2 dB coax loss used in the calculation on page 11 (counting
the cover page as page 1), where in the threads I previously mentioned, I
think it was Jeff Liebermann who said just the pigtail alone is a half
decibel loss, where the PowerBeam we're talking about, has no pigtail to
deal with.

On page 12, it says the 2.4 GHz & 5GHz omni max EIRP is 36 dBm.
Page 12 also says, for directional signals...
o For every 3dB of antenna gain beyond 6dBi
o Reduce the transmit power by 1dBm

Given we know the $90 PowerBeam M2 400 that Paul asked about
o Starts with only 26 decibels of transmit power
o into an 18dBi antenna...
<https://www.amazon.com/Ubiquiti-PowerBeam-Wireless-Bridge-PBE-M2-400/dp/B00OJZO9PY>

That's line 5 exactly on Paul's chart on page 12:
o Max Power of 26 dBm + 18 dBi = 44 dBm (i.e., 25 Watts)
<https://www.streakwave.com/mmSWAVE1/Video/PowerBeam_DS.pdf>

Which tells us that radio Paul asked about is capable of the maximum
o But no more (i.e., in this application, you can't be illegal)
Which, I assume, is exactly what you'd want ... is it not?

https://dl.ubnt.com/datasheets/bulletm/bm_ds_web.pdf

BM2HP (2.4GHz, Hi-Power, 28dBm 600mW) <===
BM5HP (5GHz. Hi-Power, 25dBm )

https://dl.ubnt.com/qsg/BulletM2-HP/BulletM2-HP_EN.html

"Select your antenna from the list.
Ensure Calculate EIRP Limit is enabled;

transmit output power is automatically adjusted
to comply with the regulations of the applicable country."

Certified Antenna Types

Omni 2.4 GHz 13 dBi
Sector 2.4 GHz 17 dBi
Dish 2.4 GHz 24 dBi
"

As you select higher gain antennas, and enter that
information in the software, the software turns down
the transmitter power (as described in the EngeniusTech
document. Full parabolic dishes run up to 30dBi (at
least, "as seen on Amazon"). The transmit power is not
turned down exactly at the same rate as the antenna
gain goes up, so slapping a dish on it is still a "win"
of some sort.

Hi Paul,
Thank you for finding the fact that, as I had thought, the software "turns
down the transmit power" based on the antenna gain (and country
regulations).

I think anyone who complains, at this stage, about "legal limits" is sort
of like someone who quibbles about the spelling of decibels. If that's all
they can offer - which is a warning to not exceed legal limits - then
that's sort of like warning someone not to step in front of a speeding
train ... it's not useful information since everyone already knows it.

What's useful is if we could figure out the EIRP of our typical $100 home
routers, where I'm under the impression 20 decibels would be a good one,
where the key point is that, for the same $90, we get the most powerful
radio you can legally use in the US.
<https://www.amazon.com/Ubiquiti-PowerBeam-Wireless-Bridge-PBE-M2-400/dp/B00OJZO9PY>

BTW, for $140 in toto, you can destroy your router's puny 2 dBi omni with
<https://www.amazon.com/Ubiquiti-Bullet-BM2HP-Antenna-HG2409U-PRO/dp/B06XQ4D9FS>
o Bullet M2 HP 26dBm (see Paul's quote above)
o 8.5 dBi omni antenna
Which makes for about 34 decibels, compared to, at about the same price, a
puny SOHO router of, oh, if you're lucky, about 20 decibels (although it
would be nice to find facts for what current $140 routers provide today).

IMHO, at those prices, with that power in your hands, and especially given
how small (physically) a bullet is (it fits in the palm of your hand), it's
a wonder _anyone_ buys a horridly weak router at anything near that price.

--
The beauty of this knowledge is that you can get a far more powerful
"router" at the same cost as you paid for your weakling router today.

 

[Fox's Mercantile]

On 10/16/19 12:37 AM, Arlen _G_ Holder wrote:
[ The usual shit deleted. ]

If you already know all the answers, why do you waste our time
asking questions?

--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

 

[Arlen _G_ Holder]

On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 21:12:13 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert wrote:

o How about in this picture of a Ubiquiti Rocket M5 5Ghz antenna?
https://i.postimg.cc/yNXw0TZS/antenna02.jpg

the connection is not obvious from that angle

The rocket (radio) plugs into a socket in the antenna. IIRC, the socket
there is covering the upper 2" or so of the radio unit.

The main point is that the radio and antenna are as close together as a
tire is to the wheel ... such that these are colloquially equivalent:
o Aim the radio
o Aim the antenna

Just as these are colloquially equivalent
o Balance the wheel
o Balance the tires

The problem I have with quibbling is that it gains us nothing, and, worse,
the people who quiblle are always the ones who can't add value.

Think about it this way:
o You're on a slippery tile roof, aiming the antenna,
o And you call down below to the guy on the laptop with the software
o "Did we get to 60 decibels yet"
And ... the guy incessantly argues with you
o That's it's dBi or dBm... or worse ... that it's minus

The time to quibble is when you're sitting in the classroom.
o We're trying to get something done here

Already Johann Baretta mentioned he owns a WISP where he picks up signals
from San Onofre Visitor Center WiFi from 60 miles away.

That's the kind of range that's possible with this stuff!
(Well, not that much for $100 ... but you get the point).

The value here is that anyone on a computer with an Ethernet port
can extend their range by huge amounts, for less than a hundred bucks.

Since this equipment isn't sold in the normal consumer stores,
they just have to know that it exists, and what to get, where the
PowerBeams are hard to beat in terms of price/performance but there are
tons of choices depending on what the person wants to do:

a. Do they want to vastly extend the range of their WiFi
b. Or do they paint the furthest reaches of their property
c. Or do they wish to pick up or throw Internet vast distances

All this is possible - for around $100 - if you know how.

--
That type of technical value is what people should focus on
(instead of quibbling over meaningless things of no adult value).

 

[Arlen _G_ Holder]

On Wed, 16 Oct 2019 13:49:26 +1100, Lucifer wrote:

I won't bother you again. Suffice it to say you are not using words in
the usual way.

Lucifer,

When you're on a rooftop, "aiming an antenna", and you call down to the guy
below connected via a laptop to the other end of the POE, asking...
o "Did we get to 60 decibels yet"

Do you really think it's helpful if the helper starts quibbling
o About the "type" of decibels, or
o About the "minus" sign?

Only in the classroom, where the goals are different
o Is the type of qubbling you did ... even remotely helpful

Your quibbling (and that of others) was of no value to the group.
o It only made _you_ feel good that you found an inaccuracy

It's jsut as if you harangue the tire shops for advertising
o "We balance tires"
Or
o "We balance wheels"

When you probably don't know the slightest thing about any of this stuff.
o If you do, your quibbling doesn't prove it.

If you want to ADD VALUE, Lucifer, realize that Usenet is a pot luck.
o Your value is what you ADD to the equation

Quibbling about everyone elses' food without bringing any of your own
o Is what you did, Lucifer.

Why don't you try to ADD value to this thread, Lucifer?
o Tell us how you increase the range of our desktops, for example;
o Or, tell us how to throw (or receive) Internet from afar, Lucifer;
o Or, tell us how to paint WIFi to the far corners of our property.

Tell us something useful.

Tell us something we don't already know, Lucifer.
o Instead of childishly quibbling about colloquial terminology.

--
The value add here is that for about the price of a typicl router, you can
get far more powerful equipment that works better, when you need range.