Is the "Skills Shortage" real ?

[Terry Collins]

Sparky wrote:

Hi,

I'm becoming increasingly frustrated to hear of this alleged "Skills
Shortage" in the media.
Even the ABC keeps banging on about it...

I for one am finding it harder and harder to find useful work in Electronics
...

There are "shortages" in some areas.
Now, your and my definition of a shortage is probably very different to
these "shortages". We probably belong to the old school definition of a
shortage.

When you have a boom in construction, etc, there is always an immediate
shortage. Coupled with the modern method of staffing is to only have
permanent staff for the on-going load and recruit temporary staff for
the "boom" time.

And when a company can not recruit that staff, when they want them AND
at the $$$ the company is prepared to pay (so they make humungous
profits), then there is obviously a shortage.

ROFL yet?

And of course, the company has to bleat on to all and sundry about it
and claim there is a "skills shortage", which encourages the government to
a) force diabled, etc, etc to apply for these jobs (no skills, no training)
b) allowed "skilled immigration".

What do others think ? Is there a genuine skills shortage

Nope, definitely not in engineering/manufacturing. There are always adds
for cnc trademan in the local paper, but I do not consider there to be a
real shortage as whenever you ask the factory/company owners what they
are paying for the position "award wages" ROFL.

So, they expect some one to do four years of evening TAFE to get a
fitting and machining qualification, then one or two years (?) of cnc
training and then still not be acceptable because his experience isn't
on their brand of machinery.

In comparison, this guy can spend a few hundred $$ and a few days at
fork lift training school and pull from $27/hour loading and unload
containers. No contest. And those figures are after the agency takes
it's cut (~50%).

(especially in Electronics Engineering)
or is it a cynical exercise by the Government and the Media to contain wages
and/or import cheap labour ?

Yep.

IT wages have arsed out over the last decade.

We have become so efficent at stuff, that demand for labour/employees
has fallen dramatically. So much so, that it isn't worth the effort to
do any involved personal education/training because you are highly
unlikely to every get your costs back.

 

[Terry Collins]

Alan Rutlidge wrote:

Basic literacy and numeracy skills one expects to have developed in high
school just aren't there. There is a whole generation of kids out there
who can't perform basic math calculations either on paper or in thier heads.
Even with a calculator they stuff up. Why?

Two major factors;
1) Educational bureacrats deam such and such a teaching method as the
one and only way that something shall be taught. The result is that a
good percentage don't learn because that method doesn't work for them.

2) Teachers are stressed by larger classes. Those extra 3, 4 students,
cause problems beyound the numbers, plus with mainstreaming of everyone,
no matter what their educational or personal problem, the teacher is
swamped with problems and everything just sinks to the lowest denominator.

I WOULD NOT hire someone
on "qualifications" alone. Any chance of permanent employment would be
based on the prospective employee being able to demonstrate they have the
skills and ability to do the work.

Good approach, but sadly I see this so often fucked up by being asked
about some obscuce problem. I worked in IT and you can bet with absolute
certainty that most of the technical questions would be so obscure.

In the end, I just went "NFI - never seen that problem in 25 years in
IT" Sadly, most people think that IT is all technical knowledge.

Of course, still to hear a clanger like I did when I worked in welfare.
That one almost brought the interviewing committe to blows. Sigh, and
I'd travelled 500 kms to attend the interview.

Pathetic really
that the Australian government should seek to import skilled labour when for
decades it's allowed the education system and skilling of its existing
workforce to go to the dogs.

,,,snipples and rearrangement

The industries themselves are partially to
blame for doing bugger all to elevate the status or standards.

I think this is the major problem really. Even historically, very few
industries did much training. Places like BHP, etc had major workshops
of apprentices, but is was government authorities (water, electricity,
PMG, OTC, railways, etc) that also contributed a major proportion of the
training.

You got your apprenticeship and so long as you made an effort, even if
they didn't keep you on, you finished with a trade and of course private
industry just lapped all these basic tradesman up because it was largely
real world training.

In the 70's, that all went out the door and it wasn't just at the trades
level either. A lot of technical traineeships and degree traineeships
alsop disappeared.

So that last of the people trained under those opportunites are now 50+
(?) and really starting to feel their age and retiring or being
medically pensioned off.

The problem is only going to get worse.

 

[Terry Collins]

The Real Andy wrote:

Ahh, try to get an apprentice. No kid wants to work for apprentice
wages these days,

Well, would you waste your time working for shit money, when you can get
more money easier doing something cleaner.

I think a major problem is that most old farts thing in terms of the old
times where having a trade gave you skills for life, ...

But young people have had nine years of computing by the time they have
done their HSC[1] and that tells them that everything is changing so
fast, that spending four years learning a trade is just a waste.


[1] I know someone is going to say apprentices, etc don't do HSC, but
that is little Johnny's plant to fix the skills shortage; leave high
school with HSC and a pile of certificates.

The last company I worked for went through about 4 apprentices before
hiring an unskilled labourer and training him up. At leat the labourer
was willing to learn.

My local garage tells the same story about apprentices, but then they
dropped the clanger "Next time we are going to ask some questions before
they start and make them do a trial period". LOL.
>

 

[Terry Collins]

The Real Andy wrote:

However, if I have to
get into a shit pit at a chicken farm to fix a PLC, then I expect them
to do it too. These days they wont do that.

Umm, i think you need to rethink that. I'd tell them not to do it either
if there was any likely danger to their health. One thing I have learnt
is that there are very few companies/bosses that really look after you.
they will put you in danger so they can make their money, then flip you
off if you are injured in any way.

 

[The Real Andy]

On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 00:33:55 +1000, Terry Collins
<terryc.bling@woa.com.au> wrote:

The Real Andy wrote:


Ahh, try to get an apprentice. No kid wants to work for apprentice
wages these days,

Well, would you waste your time working for shit money, when you can get
more money easier doing something cleaner.

I think a major problem is that most old farts thing in terms of the old
times where having a trade gave you skills for life, ...

But young people have had nine years of computing by the time they have
done their HSC[1] and that tells them that everything is changing so
fast, that spending four years learning a trade is just a waste.


[1] I know someone is going to say apprentices, etc don't do HSC, but
that is little Johnny's plant to fix the skills shortage; leave high
school with HSC and a pile of certificates.

Thats the problem I used to face. I agree with you 100%.

The last company I worked for went through about 4 apprentices before
hiring an unskilled labourer and training him up. At leat the labourer
was willing to learn.

My local garage tells the same story about apprentices, but then they
dropped the clanger "Next time we are going to ask some questions before
they start and make them do a trial period". LOL.

 

[The Real Andy]

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 22:16:01 +1000, "Phil Allison"
<philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:

"The Real Andy"
"Phil Allison"


** Have another try Andy - this time don't delete half of it and see if
you can write sensible replies.

Deleted irrelevent drivel. TRy to answer my question Phil:

So you are saying that the apprentice should only be trained to do the
good clean work and the tradesman should only do the crap work?

 

[Phil Allison]

"The Real Andy"
"Phil Allison"


** Have another try Andy - this time don't delete more than half of it
and see if
you can write sensible replies.

Otherwise, admit you can't and are completely bereft of points to make.


...... Phil

Ahh, try to get an apprentice. No kid wants to work for apprentice
wages these days, and if they do, they dont want to do the shit work
we all went through as apprentices.


** Apprentices are meant to be young persons in training - NOT a source
of
cheap labour to do "shit work" that no-one else will do.


That was not what I was suggesting.

** Worse than suggest - that is exactly what you wrote.

However, when getting trained, you
must be willing to do the crap work with the good stuff.

** The law according to Andy ???

Queensland style ?

The last company I worked for went through about 4 apprentices before
hiring an unskilled labourer and training him up.


** How funny - so the arsehole boss had to pay the guy award wages
instead of the pittance apprentices get.


At least the labourer was willing to work an learn,

** You said that already.

and didn't mind doing the dirty work too.

** Since that was what he was being paid award wages to do.

A quite different situation.

In my first apprenticeship, i was used as
cheap labour, so I know what it was like.

** Believe me - it shows.

In my second apprenticeshit,
i still did crap work,

** Caught in a rut, then ?

but at least my boss gave me the opportunity to learn.

** As opposed to " teaching you a lesson" - I suppose.

Live and learn, if its good enough for the tradesman, then why cant
the apprentice do it too??

** Because apprentices are meant to be young persons in training - NOT a
source of cheap labour to do "shit work" that no-one else will do.




............ Phil

 

[S Roby]

In comparison, this guy can spend a few hundred $$ and a few days at
fork lift training school and pull from $27/hour loading and unload
containers. No contest. And those figures are after the agency takes
it's cut (~50%).

A skilled person often makes less than the guy he pays to mow his lawn.
In NZ the skills shortage is really a shortage of skilled people who will work
for 'unskilled' wages.

 

[dmm]

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 12:57:19 +1000, "Sparky" <No_Spam@bigpond.com> wrote:

Hi,

I'm becoming increasingly frustrated to hear of this alleged "Skills
Shortage" in the media.
Even the ABC keeps banging on about it...

I for one am finding it harder and harder to find useful work in Electronics

What are you qualified for? Who have you been sending your cv to?
What sort of "useful" work are you specifically looking for in electronics?
Are you prepared to move interstate for a job? Are you prepared to do
tertiary study to upgrade your skillset, or change career?

What do others think ? Is there a genuine skills shortage
(especially in Electronics Engineering)
or is it a cynical exercise by the Government and the Media to contain wages
and/or import cheap labour ?

Thanks ........... Sparky
There's no denying the shortage in health care professionals. Civil engineers,

building services and HV electrical engineers have been also been required,
and are paying quite good salaries. Accountants? Apparently there has been
a drive on for them, and we can expect an oversupply I suspect in the next
few years, but that will eventually level out, similar to the IT oversupply
several years ago. Compare the number of jobs available for electronic
engineers to database managers.

As I see it, either upgrade your skills, or try another vocation.

 

[Phil Allison]

"dmm"

There's no denying the shortage in health care professionals.

** Specialist doctors and surgeons only - an artificially created shortage
by their own governing body to circumvent competition.

Civil engineers, building services and HV electrical engineers have been
also been required,

* Only for highly experienced ones - an impossible ask for young Aussie
residents.

and are paying quite good salaries.

** Short term contracts only - I bet.

Accountants?

** Like rats - allusion intended.

Apparently there has been
a drive on for them, and we can expect an oversupply I suspect in the next
few years, but that will eventually level out, similar to the IT
oversupply
several years ago. Compare the number of jobs available for electronic
engineers to database managers.

** What are you on about - you demented fucking half-wit ?????

Know nothing, smug, arrogant piles of human excreta like David Milne are a
dime a dozen.

Bet anything "dmm" is a stinking, PITA public servant !!

As I see it, either upgrade your skills, or try another vocation.

** But fuckwits like "dmm" do not see anything the way it really is.

Head installed far to far up his own arse for that.




............ Phil

 

[The Real Andy]

On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 13:16:24 +1000, "Phil Allison"
<philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:

"The Real Andy"
"Phil Allison"


** Have another try Andy - this time don't delete more than half of it
and see if
you can write sensible replies.

Otherwise, admit you can't and are completely bereft of points to make.

Phil, answer my question, or are you afraid I am right? In fact.
answer this one too. When was the last time you trained an apprentice?

..... Phil


Ahh, try to get an apprentice. No kid wants to work for apprentice
wages these days, and if they do, they dont want to do the shit work
we all went through as apprentices.


** Apprentices are meant to be young persons in training - NOT a source
of
cheap labour to do "shit work" that no-one else will do.


That was not what I was suggesting.


** Worse than suggest - that is exactly what you wrote.


However, when getting trained, you
must be willing to do the crap work with the good stuff.


** The law according to Andy ???

Queensland style ?



The last company I worked for went through about 4 apprentices before
hiring an unskilled labourer and training him up.


** How funny - so the arsehole boss had to pay the guy award wages
instead of the pittance apprentices get.


At least the labourer was willing to work an learn,


** You said that already.


and didn't mind doing the dirty work too.


** Since that was what he was being paid award wages to do.

A quite different situation.


In my first apprenticeship, i was used as
cheap labour, so I know what it was like.


** Believe me - it shows.


In my second apprenticeshit,
i still did crap work,


** Caught in a rut, then ?


but at least my boss gave me the opportunity to learn.


** As opposed to " teaching you a lesson" - I suppose.


Live and learn, if its good enough for the tradesman, then why cant
the apprentice do it too??


** Because apprentices are meant to be young persons in training - NOT a
source of cheap labour to do "shit work" that no-one else will do.




........... Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

"The Real Andy"
"Phil Allison"


** Have another try Andy - this time don't delete more than half of it
and see if you can write sensible replies.

Otherwise, admit you can't and are completely bereft of points to make.


...... Phil

Ahh, try to get an apprentice. No kid wants to work for apprentice
wages these days, and if they do, they dont want to do the shit work
we all went through as apprentices.


** Apprentices are meant to be young persons in training - NOT a source
of
cheap labour to do "shit work" that no-one else will do.


That was not what I was suggesting.

** Worse than suggest - that is exactly what you wrote.

However, when getting trained, you
must be willing to do the crap work with the good stuff.

** The law according to Andy ???

Queensland style ?

The last company I worked for went through about 4 apprentices before
hiring an unskilled labourer and training him up.


** How funny - so the arsehole boss had to pay the guy award wages
instead of the pittance apprentices get.


At least the labourer was willing to work an learn,

** You said that already.

and didn't mind doing the dirty work too.

** Since that was what he was being paid award wages to do.

A quite different situation.

In my first apprenticeship, i was used as
cheap labour, so I know what it was like.

** Believe me - it shows.

In my second apprenticeshit,
i still did crap work,

** Caught in a rut, then ?

but at least my boss gave me the opportunity to learn.

** As opposed to " teaching you a lesson" - I suppose.

Live and learn, if its good enough for the tradesman, then why cant
the apprentice do it too??

** Because apprentices are meant to be young persons in training - NOT a
source of cheap labour to do "shit work" that no-one else will do.




............ Phil

 

[David L. Jones]

Sparky wrote:

Hi,

I'm becoming increasingly frustrated to hear of this alleged "Skills
Shortage" in the media.
Even the ABC keeps banging on about it...

I for one am finding it harder and harder to find useful work in Electronics
...

What do others think ? Is there a genuine skills shortage
(especially in Electronics Engineering)
or is it a cynical exercise by the Government and the Media to contain wages
and/or import cheap labour ?

Thanks ........... Sparky

Austek Security must think there is skills shortage with them having
trouble filling this role at a whopping $35K:

"Electronics design firm in Sydney looking for a talented electronics
engineer with industry experience in embedded microcontroller
development.

Electronics Engineer

# Developing embedded systems
# PicMicro Motorola Atmel
# $35,000 starting salary

Great potential to grow with our business.

Must be proficient in PicMicro, Motorola, and Atmel MCU's.
Languages: Assembly & C++

Industry experience an advantage."

http://it.seek.com.au/users/apply/index.ascx?Sequence=53&PageNumber=1&ChannelID=4&SiteID=1&JobId=5373941&Keywords=

They might get a 16yo hobbyist with PIC Led Flasher experience at that
price.

Dave

 

[dmm]

On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 20:57:25 +1000, "Phil Allison" <philallison@tpg.com.au>
wrote:

"dmm"

There's no denying the shortage in health care professionals.

** Specialist doctors and surgeons only - an artificially created shortage
by their own governing body to circumvent competition.

Oh, I agree that the College of Surgeons has had what I would consider
a closed shop arrangement, and only allowing few surgeons to be trained,
basically to make up the numbers of those who retire. They even announced
that they would increase their intake a while ago. <shrugs> However overseas
trained surgeons have been coming in to make up the shortfall. Still, nurses and
other health professionals are required, in spite of your narrow focus on
surgeons only.

Civil engineers, building services and HV electrical engineers have been
also been required,

* Only for highly experienced ones - an impossible ask for young Aussie
residents.

Did you have in mind an apprentice to take on the responsibility for these types
of jobs?

and are paying quite good salaries.


** Short term contracts only - I bet.

You can take a look on mycareer.com, or seek, just like anyone else, and see
what sort of length the contracts are, or even if they are permanent, and the
experience required.

Accountants?


** Like rats - allusion intended.

Still needed, as are lawyers. And politicians (unfortunately).

Apparently there has been
a drive on for them, and we can expect an oversupply I suspect in the next
few years, but that will eventually level out, similar to the IT
oversupply
several years ago. Compare the number of jobs available for electronic
engineers to database managers.


** What are you on about - you demented fucking half-wit ?????

There was a great drive for IT professionals in the mid 90's before the dotcom
bust. Universities were churning them out like a production line. When the
bust came, there were so many IT graduates looking for jobs that there was
an oversupply, and the salaries dropped. Now, the slack has been taken
up and the demand for IT professionals has picked up again. Not as much
for electronic engineers unfortunately, however the jobs are out there if
one cares to look. There's even some for servicemen occasionally.

Know nothing, smug, arrogant piles of human excreta like David Milne are a
dime a dozen.

Bet anything "dmm" is a stinking, PITA public servant !!

Never been one. Always worked in the private sector.

As I see it, either upgrade your skills, or try another vocation.


** But fuckwits like "dmm" do not see anything the way it really is.

As I see it, there are two types of people around. Those who complain
bitterly about how they think things are, and those actually who do
something to improve their own situation.

Head installed far to far up his own arse for that.

I'll leave it up to the rest of the newsgroup to guess which one Phil is.

........... Phil

David

 

[Phil Allison]

"dmm"
Phil Allison

There's no denying the shortage in health care professionals.

** Specialist doctors and surgeons only - an artificially created
shortage
by their own governing body to circumvent competition.

Oh, I agree that the College of Surgeons has had what I would consider
a closed shop arrangement,

** What "dmm" considers = a giant bloody Yawn.

Civil engineers, building services and HV electrical engineers have
been
also been required,

* Only for highly experienced ones - an impossible ask for young Aussie
residents.

Did you have in mind an apprentice to take on the responsibility for these
types
of jobs?

** What sort of fuckwit question is that ???????????

and are paying quite good salaries.


** Short term contracts only - I bet.

You can take a look on mycareer.com, or seek, just like anyone else, and
see
what sort of length the contracts are, or even if they are permanent, and
the
experience required.

** What sort of fuckwit comment is that ???????????

Accountants?


** Like rats - allusion intended.

Still needed, as are lawyers.

** What sort of fuckwit comment is that ???????????

Apparently there has been
a drive on for them, and we can expect an oversupply I suspect in the
next
few years, but that will eventually level out, similar to the IT
oversupply
several years ago. Compare the number of jobs available for electronic
engineers to database managers.


** What are you on about - you demented fucking half-wit ?????

There was a great drive for IT professionals in the mid 90's before the
dotcom
bust. Universities were churning them out like a production line.

** Unis do not produce "professionals" - ever.

What loony bin did "dmm" escape from ???

Know nothing, smug, arrogant piles of human excreta like David Milne are a
dime a dozen.

Bet anything "dmm" is a stinking, PITA public servant !!

Never been one. Always worked in the private sector.

** As what - a professional smug turd ???

As I see it, either upgrade your skills, or try another vocation.


** But fuckwits like "dmm" do not see anything the way it really is.


As I see it, there are two types of people around.

** David - not one person alive give the tiniest shit what a useless,
posturing, narcissistic cunt like you thinks.

You and David L. Jones ought to get married.

One brainless shit deserves another.



........... Phil

 

[dmm]

On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 23:04:50 +1000, "Phil Allison" <philallison@tpg.com.au>
wrote:

As I see it, there are two types of people around.

** David - not one person alive give the tiniest shit what a useless,
posturing, narcissistic cunt like you thinks.

I think I struck a chord. Stay happy repairing toasters in your bedsit while
the rest of the world gets on fine without you. Oh look, 113 jobs for electrical
engineers at Seek, and another 56 hardware engineers/techs, in Sydney.
There's even one that you probably ought to consider. Seriously.
Engineering -> hardware
# 23 Audio Visual, Technical Support, Product Specialist A/V, Brown
Goods,Electronics

You and David L. Jones ought to get married.

No thanks. My wife wouldn't appreciate that, and I don't
think DLJ's partner would either.

 

[Phil Allison]

"dmm"
Phil Allison

As I see it, there are two types of people around.

** David - not one person alive give the tiniest shit what a useless,
posturing, narcissistic cunt like you thinks.


I think I struck a chord.

** You are worse than sub-human garbage - David Milne.

A full-on stinking fascist pig.

Stay happy repairing toasters in your bedsit while
the rest of the world gets on fine without you.

** Why repeat that utterly inane crap - only makes YOU look more and more
stupid than you already do.

You and David L. Jones ought to get married.

One brainless shit deserves another.

No thanks.

** Then just go fuck each-other in sin then.




............. Phil

 

[TT]

"The Real Andy" <will_get_back_to_you_on_This> wrote in
message news:4m1mg1laehlc446bvg0tfuk3ul8erifm69@4ax.com...

On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 13:16:24 +1000, "Phil Allison"
philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:

"The Real Andy"
Phil, answer my question, or are you afraid I am right? In
fact.
answer this one too. When was the last time you trained an
apprentice?

Sorry to but in Andy *BUT* you must be qualified to train
apprentices. Phil has *NO* qualifications and as such is
not allowed to have an apprentice. Being a Uni drop-out is
not a skill level to pass onto any young person.

Regards TT

 

[TT]

"dmm" <dmmilne_REMOVE_@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:je8mg194abtn0g21lc0tk8rl5pu9otlcvs@4ax.com...

On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 23:04:50 +1000, "Phil Allison"
philallison@tpg.com.au
wrote:


I think I struck a chord. Stay happy repairing toasters in
your bedsit while
the rest of the world gets on fine without you. Oh look,
113 jobs for electrical
engineers at Seek, and another 56 hardware
engineers/techs, in Sydney.
There's even one that you probably ought to consider.
Seriously.
Engineering -> hardware
# 23 Audio Visual, Technical Support, Product Specialist
A/V, Brown
Goods,Electronics

Wouldn't Phil need some qualifications first? BTW the last

A/V product he tried to fix (an aging set of Quad ESL 63s)
he "let the smoke out" and had to take them back for a
refund. Sad really, he should have read the warnings on the
box and let the authorised service agent look at it ;-)

Please bear in mind Phil *abhors* and *despises* anyone with
any qualifications as they are the antithesis of what he has
achieved.

Regards TT

 

[Phil Allison]

"TT" = criminal, grease monkey & net stalking arsewipe from Bunbury WA


http://swat.com.au/pages/aboutus.php4

See the ugly middle aged cunt with the spanner ?


Certain to know absoluoootly bloody NOTHING about what constitutes being
qualified in some branch of electronics means.





.......... Phil