Is the "Skills Shortage" real ?

[Sparky]

Hi,

I'm becoming increasingly frustrated to hear of this alleged "Skills
Shortage" in the media.
Even the ABC keeps banging on about it...

I for one am finding it harder and harder to find useful work in Electronics
....

What do others think ? Is there a genuine skills shortage
(especially in Electronics Engineering)
or is it a cynical exercise by the Government and the Media to contain wages
and/or import cheap labour ?

Thanks ........... Sparky

 

[David L. Jones]

Sparky wrote:

Hi,

I'm becoming increasingly frustrated to hear of this alleged "Skills
Shortage" in the media.
Even the ABC keeps banging on about it...

I for one am finding it harder and harder to find useful work in Electronics
...

What do others think ? Is there a genuine skills shortage
(especially in Electronics Engineering)
or is it a cynical exercise by the Government and the Media to contain wages
and/or import cheap labour ?

Thanks ........... Sparky

I've found that a lot of good electroncis guys are moving out of
electronics design because there is a "jobs shortage"!

The media will crap on about anything and run with it, that's what they
do.

Dave

 

[Alan Rutlidge]

"Sparky" <No_Spam@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:1124679408.2b71f5129753b24d9ac397da5f281597@teranews...

Hi,

I'm becoming increasingly frustrated to hear of this alleged "Skills
Shortage" in the media.
Even the ABC keeps banging on about it...

I for one am finding it harder and harder to find useful work in
Electronics
...

What do others think ? Is there a genuine skills shortage
(especially in Electronics Engineering)
or is it a cynical exercise by the Government and the Media to contain
wages
and/or import cheap labour ?

Thanks ........... Sparky

In general there is a shortage of skilled labour in the vocational (trades)
and semi-professional areas. Notice the use of the work "skilled". There
are plenty of cowboys out there masquerading as "skilled tradies", but there
are a lot with no formal industry recognised qualifications, let alone some
decent supervised trade experience.

A quick visit to any TAFE classroom with pre-apprentices and some 1st year
trainees is likely to send the average recruitment manager into shock.
Basic literacy and numeracy skills one expects to have developed in high
school just aren't there. There is a whole generation of kids out there
who can't perform basic math calculations either on paper or in thier heads.
Even with a calculator they stuff up. Why? They have NFI what to expect as
the approximate answer. A typical example might be a question like this -
"Calculate the RMS value of a sine wave signal that has a peak voltage of 10
volts." When a student gives you an answer of more than "10" you just know
the light might be on but nobody is at home. Try reading some twit's lab
results or even marking a written test paper. No wonder computer based
assessments (CBA) are becoming so popular! Yes and for the students too.
Fail the first time and some TAFEs will let the student re-sit the SAME EXAM
several times until they finally get over the wire - it's a joke. Why?
Funding is based on the percentage of successful module completions. So to
get their brownie points, some TAFEs prostitute their standards get more
students to the satisfactory completion stage.

Then there is supposed to be competency based assessment. Another joke.
Take the restricted and open registration for cablers written assessments.
Two of the 3 exams are open book. Questions typically just require the
student to look up the answer and copy it right out of AS/ACIF S009:2001.
95% of the questions DON'T test the student's understanding of the
regulations. In simple terms, even though the assessment is supposed to be
competency based, copying the answer out of the book is NOT competency based
assessment IMHO, yet this system is fully endorsed by the TAFEs and
Registered Training Organisations (RTOs) nationally. Combine this with less
than 5 hours of practical assessment and the "six months of relevant cabling
experience" and any fool can come into your home or workplace to run,
terminate, test and connect your telecommunications, LAN and security
cabling to the carrier's network.

Sure, not all training and assessment is so lacking, but it appears to be
endemic across the vocational educational system. I WOULD NOT hire someone
on "qualifications" alone. Any chance of permanent employment would be
based on the prospective employee being able to demonstrate they have the
skills and ability to do the work.

I see some vocational trades as a catch 22 situation. Some trades are
poorly paid. The electronic servicing bench tech award is just not worth
the effort to do well at TAFE when compared with some other industries. Pay
peanuts and you get monkeys. The industries themselves are partially to
blame for doing bugger all to elevate the status or standards. Kids leaving
school today are probably better off working as a trolley boy at the local
supermarket. Zero skill, no real training required and probably make as
much as a newly qualified bench tech makes. It's a joke.

Another problem is vocational trade rotation. Because many of the technical
trades are so badly paid, a lot of people give up trying to get ahead, so
they move on to other industries, which creates a skill void until it gets
replenished.

Australia is no not "the smart country" we would like to think it is. In
reality it is the "dumb" poor cousin of many of our SE Asian neighbours.
Sooner or later the majority of non-professional existing resident
Australians will be in non-technical service industries - waiters, cooks
(not chefs), cleaners, garbage collectors, shop assistants, night packers,
counter staff at Macca's, trolley boys and the such like. Pathetic really
that the Australian government should seek to import skilled labour when for
decades it's allowed the education system and skilling of its existing
workforce to go to the dogs.

Cheers,
Alan

 

[Phil Allison]

"Sparky"

I'm becoming increasingly frustrated to hear of this alleged "Skills
Shortage" in the media.
Even the ABC keeps banging on about it...

I for one am finding it harder and harder to find useful work in
Electronics...

** There is no "skills shortage " in electronic design in Australia.

Cos there is SFA design being done here.

What do others think ? Is there a genuine skills shortage

** For "skills " read "specific, commercially valuable skills".

Such skills usually cannot be obtained by someone living in Australia since
they relate to hands on experience with specific technology that we simply
do not have here.

(especially in Electronics Engineering)
or is it a cynical exercise by the Government and the Media to contain
wages
and/or import cheap labour ?

** That too.

WA has imported Philippino motor mechanics that work cheaply and in poor
conditions.



............ Phil

 

[Mark Harriss]

Phil Allison wrote:

"Sparky"

I'm becoming increasingly frustrated to hear of this alleged "Skills
Shortage" in the media.
Even the ABC keeps banging on about it...

I for one am finding it harder and harder to find useful work in
Electronics...




** There is no "skills shortage " in electronic design in Australia.

Cos there is SFA design being done here.



What do others think ? Is there a genuine skills shortage




** For "skills " read "specific, commercially valuable skills".

Such skills usually cannot be obtained by someone living in Australia since
they relate to hands on experience with specific technology that we simply
do not have here.




(especially in Electronics Engineering)
or is it a cynical exercise by the Government and the Media to contain
wages
and/or import cheap labour ?



** That too.

WA has imported Philippino motor mechanics that work cheaply and in poor
conditions.



........... Phil

The companies who can't hire fitter and turners for any money, are the
same companies who lobby the government to "Do something about it".
These companies haven't hired apprentices for years and import Chinese
workers in some cases.

 

[Geoff C]

"Sparky" <No_Spam@bigpond.com> wrote in
news:1124679408.2b71f5129753b24d9ac397da5f281597@teranews:

Hi,

I'm becoming increasingly frustrated to hear of this alleged "Skills
Shortage" in the media.
Even the ABC keeps banging on about it...

I for one am finding it harder and harder to find useful work in
Electronics ...

What do others think ? Is there a genuine skills shortage
(especially in Electronics Engineering)
or is it a cynical exercise by the Government and the Media to contain
wages and/or import cheap labour ?

Thanks ........... Sparky

I don't see much of a skills shortage in electronics/firmware. You have
to pay to get good ones, but wasn't that always the case? With a
declining manufacturing economy and also less electronics
graduates/trainees there may well be apparent shortages and gluts from
time to time, but it is a declining total too.

I wonder if companies who are looking for people and can't get ones to
fit in with their budgets, just decide to do without engineers and techs
and try to find other solutions such as design contactors, off the shelf
systems etc?

 

[Alex Gibson]

"Alan Rutlidge" <rutlidge@nospamiinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:43094cdd$0$5432$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...

"Sparky" <No_Spam@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:1124679408.2b71f5129753b24d9ac397da5f281597@teranews...
Hi,

I'm becoming increasingly frustrated to hear of this alleged "Skills
Shortage" in the media.
Even the ABC keeps banging on about it...

I for one am finding it harder and harder to find useful work in
Electronics
...

What do others think ? Is there a genuine skills shortage
(especially in Electronics Engineering)
or is it a cynical exercise by the Government and the Media to contain
wages
and/or import cheap labour ?

Thanks ........... Sparky



In general there is a shortage of skilled labour in the vocational
(trades) and semi-professional areas. Notice the use of the work
"skilled". There are plenty of cowboys out there masquerading as "skilled
tradies", but there are a lot with no formal industry recognised
qualifications, let alone some decent supervised trade experience.

A quick visit to any TAFE classroom with pre-apprentices and some 1st year
trainees is likely to send the average recruitment manager into shock.
Basic literacy and numeracy skills one expects to have developed in high
school just aren't there. There is a whole generation of kids out there
who can't perform basic math calculations either on paper or in thier
heads. Even with a calculator they stuff up. Why? They have NFI what to
expect as the approximate answer. A typical example might be a question
like this - "Calculate the RMS value of a sine wave signal that has a peak
voltage of 10 volts." When a student gives you an answer of more than
"10" you just know the light might be on but nobody is at home. Try
reading some twit's lab results or even marking a written test paper. No
wonder computer based assessments (CBA) are becoming so popular! Yes and
for the students too. Fail the first time and some TAFEs will let the
student re-sit the SAME EXAM several times until they finally get over the
wire - it's a joke.

Don't forget the autmatic pass , after five or seven years if a student has
completed 75%
of the course.

Happened to one guy I went through tafe with.

Don't know if it still works like that.

At least tafe students get taught soldering, not all uni students (Elect ,
cse ,tele etc) do.

Alex

 

[The Real Andy]

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 15:23:15 +1000, Mark Harriss <billy@blartco.co.uk>
wrote:
<snip>

The companies who can't hire fitter and turners for any money, are the
same companies who lobby the government to "Do something about it".
These companies haven't hired apprentices for years and import Chinese
workers in some cases.

Ahh, try to get an apprentice. No kid wants to work for apprentice
wages these days, and if they do, they dont want to do the shit work
we all went through as apprentices.

The last company I worked for went through about 4 apprentices before
hiring an unskilled labourer and training him up. At leat the labourer
was willing to learn.

 

[Phil Allison]

"The Real Andy"

Ahh, try to get an apprentice. No kid wants to work for apprentice
wages these days, and if they do, they dont want to do the shit work
we all went through as apprentices.

** Apprentices are meant to be young persons in training - NOT a source of
cheap labour to do "shit work" that no-one else will do.

The last company I worked for went through about 4 apprentices before
hiring an unskilled labourer and training him up.

** How funny - so the arsehole boss had to pay the guy award wages
instead of the pittance apprentices get.

At leat the labourer was willing to learn.

** As opposed to " getting taught a lesson " - I suppose.




........... Phil

 

[Mark Harriss]

The Real Andy wrote:

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 15:23:15 +1000, Mark Harriss <billy@blartco.co.uk
wrote:
snip

The companies who can't hire fitter and turners for any money, are the
same companies who lobby the government to "Do something about it".
These companies haven't hired apprentices for years and import Chinese
workers in some cases.




Ahh, try to get an apprentice. No kid wants to work for apprentice
wages these days, and if they do, they dont want to do the shit work
we all went through as apprentices.

The last company I worked for went through about 4 apprentices before
hiring an unskilled labourer and training him up. At leat the labourer
was willing to learn.

A guy I know was given weeding work as an apprentice in a shipyard in
the 1970's.

When the apprenticeship board found out what he'd been doing for 18
months they came very close to banning that shipyard from ever having
apprentices ever again. After that, the apprentice was given extra
training to make up for the "Shit work".

 

[David L. Jones]

Alex Gibson wrote:

"Alan Rutlidge" <rutlidge@nospamiinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:43094cdd$0$5432$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...

"Sparky" <No_Spam@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:1124679408.2b71f5129753b24d9ac397da5f281597@teranews...
Hi,

I'm becoming increasingly frustrated to hear of this alleged "Skills
Shortage" in the media.
Even the ABC keeps banging on about it...

I for one am finding it harder and harder to find useful work in
Electronics
...

What do others think ? Is there a genuine skills shortage
(especially in Electronics Engineering)
or is it a cynical exercise by the Government and the Media to contain
wages
and/or import cheap labour ?

Thanks ........... Sparky



In general there is a shortage of skilled labour in the vocational
(trades) and semi-professional areas. Notice the use of the work
"skilled". There are plenty of cowboys out there masquerading as "skilled
tradies", but there are a lot with no formal industry recognised
qualifications, let alone some decent supervised trade experience.

A quick visit to any TAFE classroom with pre-apprentices and some 1st year
trainees is likely to send the average recruitment manager into shock.
Basic literacy and numeracy skills one expects to have developed in high
school just aren't there. There is a whole generation of kids out there
who can't perform basic math calculations either on paper or in thier
heads. Even with a calculator they stuff up. Why? They have NFI what to
expect as the approximate answer. A typical example might be a question
like this - "Calculate the RMS value of a sine wave signal that has a peak
voltage of 10 volts." When a student gives you an answer of more than
"10" you just know the light might be on but nobody is at home. Try
reading some twit's lab results or even marking a written test paper. No
wonder computer based assessments (CBA) are becoming so popular! Yes and
for the students too. Fail the first time and some TAFEs will let the
student re-sit the SAME EXAM several times until they finally get over the
wire - it's a joke.


Don't forget the autmatic pass , after five or seven years if a student has
completed 75%
of the course.

Happened to one guy I went through tafe with.

Don't know if it still works like that.

At least tafe students get taught soldering, not all uni students (Elect ,
cse ,tele etc) do.

Half the uni grads I've interviewed can't even use an analog meter or
cro, let alone solder.
*sigh*
The likelyhood of being able to do anything useful vs educational
qualifications appears to approximate that of an exponential decay
response :->

Dave

 

[The Real Andy]

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 18:45:36 +1000, "Phil Allison"
<philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:

"The Real Andy"

Ahh, try to get an apprentice. No kid wants to work for apprentice
wages these days, and if they do, they dont want to do the shit work
we all went through as apprentices.



** Apprentices are meant to be young persons in training - NOT a source of
cheap labour to do "shit work" that no-one else will do.

That was not what I was suggesting. However, when getting trained, you
must be willing to do the crap work with the good stuff. You can start
at the top.

The last company I worked for went through about 4 apprentices before
hiring an unskilled labourer and training him up.


** How funny - so the arsehole boss had to pay the guy award wages
instead of the pittance apprentices get.

At least the labourer was willing to work an learn, and didn't mind
doing the dirty work too. In my first apprenticeship, i was used as
cheap labour, so I know what it was like. In my second apprenticeshit,
i still did crap work, but at least my boss gave me the opportunity to
learn.

At leat the labourer was willing to learn.

** As opposed to " getting taught a lesson " - I suppose.

Live and learn, if its good enough for the tradesman, then why cant
the apprentice do it too??

 

[The Real Andy]

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 18:55:34 +1000, Mark Harriss <billy@blartco.co.uk>
wrote:

The Real Andy wrote:
On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 15:23:15 +1000, Mark Harriss <billy@blartco.co.uk
wrote:
snip

The companies who can't hire fitter and turners for any money, are the
same companies who lobby the government to "Do something about it".
These companies haven't hired apprentices for years and import Chinese
workers in some cases.




Ahh, try to get an apprentice. No kid wants to work for apprentice
wages these days, and if they do, they dont want to do the shit work
we all went through as apprentices.

The last company I worked for went through about 4 apprentices before
hiring an unskilled labourer and training him up. At leat the labourer
was willing to learn.



A guy I know was given weeding work as an apprentice in a shipyard in
the 1970's.

When the apprenticeship board found out what he'd been doing for 18
months they came very close to banning that shipyard from ever having
apprentices ever again. After that, the apprentice was given extra
training to make up for the "Shit work".

Funny. When I went to the apprenticeship board with a similar claim,
the stuck up for the company. I guess spending the first 2 years of
you apprenticship cleaning second hand cables and cleaning circuit
boards is training is it? Dont assume you know everything, when I
trained apprentices I made sure they learned. However, if I have to
get into a shit pit at a chicken farm to fix a PLC, then I expect them
to do it too. These days they wont do that.

 

[Mark Harriss]

The Real Andy wrote:

Funny. When I went to the apprenticeship board with a similar claim,
the stuck up for the company. I guess spending the first 2 years of
you apprenticship cleaning second hand cables and cleaning circuit
boards is training is it? Dont assume you know everything, when I
trained apprentices I made sure they learned. However, if I have to
get into a shit pit at a chicken farm to fix a PLC, then I expect them
to do it too. These days they wont do that.

My old man was able to transfer his mechanics apprenticeship in WW2
after two years of cleaning coal gas converters on the back of cars
and always getting the job of adjusting brake shoes on the council
shitcarts. Once or twice is ok but two years is enough.

I have had jobs where I have had to climb inside sewerage
pumps to steam clean them before making a repair: I only jacked up
as my boss wanted me to do this without hep A and B shots like the
council workers had. Don't assume you know everything.

 

[The Real Andy]

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:52:20 +1000, Mark Harriss <billy@blartco.co.uk>
wrote:

The Real Andy wrote:


Funny. When I went to the apprenticeship board with a similar claim,
the stuck up for the company. I guess spending the first 2 years of
you apprenticship cleaning second hand cables and cleaning circuit
boards is training is it? Dont assume you know everything, when I
trained apprentices I made sure they learned. However, if I have to
get into a shit pit at a chicken farm to fix a PLC, then I expect them
to do it too. These days they wont do that.


My old man was able to transfer his mechanics apprenticeship in WW2
after two years of cleaning coal gas converters on the back of cars
and always getting the job of adjusting brake shoes on the council
shitcarts. Once or twice is ok but two years is enough.

I have had jobs where I have had to climb inside sewerage
pumps to steam clean them before making a repair: I only jacked up
as my boss wanted me to do this without hep A and B shots like the
council workers had. Don't assume you know everything.

You made the first assumption!

Shall we turn this into a "who has done the worst job" competition!?!?

I have done the sewerage plant jobs too, but I did them on secondary
treatment only plants in remote areas, that got nasty at times. Mind
you, thats what you get when you decide to become an instrument
fitter. I have a couple of plumber mates who think it is funny when
they bust a shit pipe and get covered in crap and tampons...Sigh, i
guess the work could be worse.

Out of all the worst jobs i have done I would have to rate doing work
at a Geletin factory in the Raw beef processing end the worst. That
plase stunk like you wouldn't beleive. Like you with the hep shots, I
kicked up a stink because I had no Q-Fever vaccinations.

Pig feed lots are bad too, but thats another story.

Its all relative I guess. I am just glad I am out of the trade game
now.

 

[Phil Allison]

"The Real Andy"
"Phil Allison"

Ahh, try to get an apprentice. No kid wants to work for apprentice
wages these days, and if they do, they dont want to do the shit work
we all went through as apprentices.


** Apprentices are meant to be young persons in training - NOT a source
of
cheap labour to do "shit work" that no-one else will do.


That was not what I was suggesting.

** Worse than suggest - that is exactly what you wrote.

However, when getting trained, you
must be willing to do the crap work with the good stuff.

** The law according to Andy ???

Queensland style ?

The last company I worked for went through about 4 apprentices before
hiring an unskilled labourer and training him up.


** How funny - so the arsehole boss had to pay the guy award wages
instead of the pittance apprentices get.


At least the labourer was willing to work an learn,

** You said that already.

and didn't mind doing the dirty work too.

** Since that was what he was being paid award wages to do.

A quite different situation.

In my first apprenticeship, i was used as
cheap labour, so I know what it was like.

** Believe me - it shows.

In my second apprenticeshit,
i still did crap work,

** Caught in a rut, then ?

but at least my boss gave me the opportunity to learn.

** As opposed to " teaching you a lesson" - I suppose.

Live and learn, if its good enough for the tradesman, then why cant
the apprentice do it too??

** Because apprentices are meant to be young persons in training - NOT a
source of
cheap labour to do "shit work" that no-one else will do.






............ Phil

 

[The Real Andy]

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 21:46:58 +1000, "Phil Allison"
<philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:

In my first apprenticeship, i was used as
cheap labour, so I know what it was like.


** Believe me - it shows.

I am surprised to hear that from you.

In my second apprenticeshit,
i still did crap work,


** Caught in a rut, then ?

Pot calling the kettle black?

but at least my boss gave me the opportunity to learn.


** As opposed to " teaching you a lesson" - I suppose.

Well, i never had to provide them with sexual gratification.

Live and learn, if its good enough for the tradesman, then why cant
the apprentice do it too??


** Because apprentices are meant to be young persons in training - NOT a
source of
cheap labour to do "shit work" that no-one else will do.

So you are saying that the apprentice should only be trained to do the
good clean work and the tradesman should only do the crap work?

 

[Mark Harriss]

The Real Andy wrote:

You made the first assumption!

Which one was that?: that apprentice board inspectors take exception
to to non stop shit jobs?.

Shall we turn this into a "who has done the worst job" competition!?!?

I have done the sewerage plant jobs too, but I did them on secondary
treatment only plants in remote areas, that got nasty at times. Mind
you, thats what you get when you decide to become an instrument
fitter. I have a couple of plumber mates who think it is funny when
they bust a shit pipe and get covered in crap and tampons...Sigh, i
guess the work could be worse.

Out of all the worst jobs i have done I would have to rate doing work
at a Geletin factory in the Raw beef processing end the worst. That
plase stunk like you wouldn't beleive. Like you with the hep shots, I
kicked up a stink because I had no Q-Fever vaccinations.

Pig feed lots are bad too, but thats another story.

Its all relative I guess. I am just glad I am out of the trade game
now.

I once was working about halfway between Cloncurry and Mt Isa and was
watching a plumber in a trench laying sewage pipe, when some idiot took
a dump and flushed it: the plumber did an army roll out of the way and
leapt out of the trench faster than any middle aged tradesman I've ever
seen just as the turds shot out of the open end of the pipe. Everyone
was told beforehand to use the bush instead but there's always an
some clown who thinks they are an exception.

 

[Phil Allison]

"The Real Andy"
"Phil Allison"


** Have another try Andy - this time don't delete half of it and see if
you can write sensible replies.

Ahh, try to get an apprentice. No kid wants to work for apprentice
wages these days, and if they do, they dont want to do the shit work
we all went through as apprentices.


** Apprentices are meant to be young persons in training - NOT a source
of
cheap labour to do "shit work" that no-one else will do.


That was not what I was suggesting.

** Worse than suggest - that is exactly what you wrote.

However, when getting trained, you
must be willing to do the crap work with the good stuff.

** The law according to Andy ???

Queensland style ?

The last company I worked for went through about 4 apprentices before
hiring an unskilled labourer and training him up.


** How funny - so the arsehole boss had to pay the guy award wages
instead of the pittance apprentices get.


At least the labourer was willing to work an learn,

** You said that already.

and didn't mind doing the dirty work too.

** Since that was what he was being paid award wages to do.

A quite different situation.

In my first apprenticeship, i was used as
cheap labour, so I know what it was like.

** Believe me - it shows.

In my second apprenticeshit,
i still did crap work,

** Caught in a rut, then ?

but at least my boss gave me the opportunity to learn.

** As opposed to " teaching you a lesson" - I suppose.

Live and learn, if its good enough for the tradesman, then why cant
the apprentice do it too??

** Because apprentices are meant to be young persons in training - NOT a
source of cheap labour to do "shit work" that no-one else will do.





............ Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

"Mark Harriss"

I once was working about halfway between Cloncurry and Mt Isa and was
watching a plumber in a trench laying sewage pipe, when some idiot took
a dump and flushed it: the plumber did an army roll out of the way and
leapt out of the trench faster than any middle aged tradesman I've ever
seen just as the turds shot out of the open end of the pipe.

** ROTFL .......


I have heard plumbers being referred to as " turd burglars " - but
never " turd dodgers " before !!!





........... Phil