How do we know when 120V US socket strip can handle Europe 2

On Mon, 19 May 2014 12:18:29 +1000, "Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au>
wrote:

clare@snyder.on.ca


If I go the route of bringing a US power strip, how would I know whether
a US 120V 60Hz power strip could handle the 240V 50Hz European power?


I have done it numerous times. The bar will only run half as much
current on 240,

** Huh ?

Same current, as that rating depends on cable and conductor thicknesses.



.... Phil

No, to operate the same devices on 240 as on 120 it will only be
handling HALF the current. If the bar can handle the devices on 120,
it will have no problem, capacity-wize, on 240 because the current
will be MUCH lower.

 

On Mon, 19 May 2014 02:54:45 +0000 (UTC), "Geoffrey S. Mendelson"
<gsm@mendelson.com> wrote:

Jessie Williams wrote:
"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <gsm@mendelson.com> wrote:

If you need an outlet strip, buy one locally.

But, a local outlet strip will just multiply the problem in
the wrong direction, won't it?

No because you won't have a 120 volt outlet strip with 240 volts on it.
It sounds ok until someone accidentaly plugs in a 120 only device without
looking.

Geoff.

The "problem" that will be multiplied is the fact that none of the
american spec dual voltage adapters will fit the euro power bar -
meaning the OP needs to buy numerous plug adapters or new power
supplies. Think about what the poor guy is trying to do before
answering the question.......

He has a mumber of chargers/adapters with parallel blade (american 15
amp) plugs that are rated for 85-250 volts, 50 /60 hz and he wants to
use them on a trip to europe. What is the easiest, simplest, cheapest
way to do it???
Buy one adapter from the local (2 round pin) 240 volt connector to the
15 amp american blade style plug, to connect a 120 volt power bar to
the 240 volt sourse, and then plug all of his existing "universal"
devices into the power bar. MOST surge protected power bars clamp at
300, 400, or 500 volts. If it is a 300 volt clamping surge protector
the 340 volt peak to peak voltage could blow the MOV. If it is the
much more common 400 volt unit, there will be no problem, and of
course the 500 volt unit will also have no problem.
Units with more sophisticated filtering than MOVs may have a problem -
but virtually all regular, cheap, power bars only have 400 volt MOV
protection.

This has been done by hundreds and thousands of travellers for
decades, without serious consequences.

 

On Sun, 18 May 2014 21:45:50 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote:

On 5/18/2014 10:15 AM, Jessie Williams wrote:
I plan on visiting Europe (Germany, Italy) this summer where the
Apple iPad US-to-Europe charger adapter is a whopping $40 each kit:
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MB974ZM/B/apple-world-travel-adapter-kit

Since I have other electronics (e.g., Android phone, camera charger, etc.),
I wonder if I can just bring a single US-to-Europe adapter and then plug
those US chargers that can handle the dual voltage & frequency into that
US power strip?

It's easy to tell if a charger can handle the dual voltage because they
print that stuff on every charger.

But I don't see it printed or molded on *any* power strips I looked at
in the box stores.

If I go the route of bringing a US power strip, how would I know whether
a US 120V 60Hz power strip could handle the 240V 50Hz European power?

It will be much less current so it will work fine though if there's a
lighted switch it may not survive the higher voltage.

You could also just buy a universal power strip, i.e.
http://www.dx.com/p/2500w-4-outlet-ac-electric-power-bar-strip-w-individual-switch-led-indicator-ac-250v-3m-cord-103853
and put the proper plug on it.

But a waste since he does not need to be able to plug any euro plug
devices into it, and he STILL needs the plug adapter because it comes
with the American style 15 amp parallel blade plug........

 

On Mon, 19 May 2014 08:19:45 +0000 (UTC), "Geoffrey S. Mendelson"
<gsm@mendelson.com> wrote:

Michael Black wrote:
You're right. But his point is that if he buys the powerbar in Europe,
then he has to get the pin adapters for each of the AC adapters he plugs
into it.

That's relatively easy. Any hardware store, electrical store, DIY store,
etc will have them for about $2-$3 each. Here in Israel, they were $5 each
until we switched from 3 rectangular pins to 2 or 3 round pins on all our
plugs and sockets. The same adaptors can be used for the old plugs to the
new sockets and everyone needed lots of them and they went down in price.


He wants to buy one set of pin adapters, for the powerbar, then the North
American power bar will take all his existing ac adapters, "solving the
problem". Since they are North American, he needs the powerbar to plug
them into, but since they are switching supplies and apparently are all
able to run on 240V, they will be fine in Europe.

It will be fine until someone sees the outlet strip and thinks it is
120 volts and plugs in a 120 volt only device. I expect that a single
person, staying in single bed rooms will be ok, but anyone traveling
in a group, sharing their hotel room, or staying in a hostel is heading
for disaster.

Geoff.

It won't be HIS disaster. Anyone stupid enough to plug their stuff
into his power bar without asking deserves what he gets (it will only
kill the device, not the owner)

 

On Mon, 19 May 2014 06:02:09 -0700, dave <ricketzz@earthlink.net>
wrote:

On 05/19/2014 04:45 AM, Phil Allison wrote:
"William Sommerwerck"

I have done it numerous times. The bar will only run
half as much current on 240,

** Huh ?

What he's trying to say is that when a device is switched to 240 volts, it
draws only half as much current as it does on 120V.

** It's more than mildly hysterical watching an autistic pedant pretend he
has a superior "theory of thought".

When the damn fool has none at all.





..... Phi


For the same amount of power...

Why not just take a single USB powered hub?

Because half of what he wants to run isn't 5 volt (usb)???
I have several 3 volt, 9 volt and 12 volt devices, not to mention 19 ,
24, and 31.

 

[sms]

On 5/19/2014 8:27 AM, clare@snyder.on.ca wrote:

He has a mumber of chargers/adapters with parallel blade (american 15
amp) plugs that are rated for 85-250 volts, 50 /60 hz and he wants to
use them on a trip to europe. What is the easiest, simplest, cheapest
way to do it???
Buy one adapter from the local (2 round pin) 240 volt connector to the
15 amp american blade style plug, to connect a 120 volt power bar to
the 240 volt sourse, and then plug all of his existing "universal"
devices into the power bar. MOST surge protected power bars clamp at
300, 400, or 500 volts. If it is a 300 volt clamping surge protector
the 340 volt peak to peak voltage could blow the MOV. If it is the
much more common 400 volt unit, there will be no problem, and of
course the 500 volt unit will also have no problem.
Units with more sophisticated filtering than MOVs may have a problem -
but virtually all regular, cheap, power bars only have 400 volt MOV
protection.

This has been done by hundreds and thousands of travellers for
decades, without serious consequences.

Well stated.

The bottom line is that a 120V outlet strip will work fine at 240V. The
surge protectors won't blow at 240V. If there's a neon lamp pilot light
in the switch it _might_ blow because the series resistor is too low of
a value, but no harm will come from it blowing.

Personally, I like the universal power strips that will accept all plug
types such as <http://www.110220volts.com/PKT-8D.html>.

 

[William Sommerwerck]

"sms" wrote in message news:lldnvn$jnf$1@dont-email.me...

The bottom line is that a 120V outlet strip will work fine at 240V.
The surge protectors won't blow at 240V.

Are you certain? The peak voltage of a 240V line is 340V. If the surge
protectors are 300V...

 

[sms]

On 5/19/2014 3:22 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote:

"sms" wrote in message news:lldnvn$jnf$1@dont-email.me...

The bottom line is that a 120V outlet strip will work fine at 240V.
The surge protectors won't blow at 240V.

Are you certain? The peak voltage of a 240V line is 340V. If the surge
protectors are 300V...

That's possible if they cheaped out on the surge suppressors. Most power
strips use MOVs that won't clamp until 340V.

I guess it's a better idea to buy a power strip rated at 240V since
you'll have more margin. Or buy a 120V power strip with no surge
suppressors.

 

On Mon, 19 May 2014 16:36:45 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote:

On 5/19/2014 3:22 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
"sms" wrote in message news:lldnvn$jnf$1@dont-email.me...

The bottom line is that a 120V outlet strip will work fine at 240V.
The surge protectors won't blow at 240V.

Are you certain? The peak voltage of a 240V line is 340V. If the surge
protectors are 300V...

That's possible if they cheaped out on the surge suppressors. Most power
strips use MOVs that won't clamp until 340V.

I guess it's a better idea to buy a power strip rated at 240V since
you'll have more margin. Or buy a 120V power strip with no surge
suppressors.

There are 3 types of MOVs used in most power strips (and other surge
protectors) - 300 volt, 400 volt and 500 volt The 400 volt are by far
the most common. The 300 gives better protection on 120 volt circuits,
but the 400 is most common and adequate on 240 as well. Particularly
in the cheap Chinese stuff it means they can use the same devices
world wide.

 

On Tue, 20 May 2014 11:30:05 +1000, "Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au>
wrote:

clare@snyder.on.ca
"Phil Allison" :
clare@snyder.on.ca


If I go the route of bringing a US power strip, how would I know whether
a US 120V 60Hz power strip could handle the 240V 50Hz European power?


I have done it numerous times. The bar will only run half as much
current on 240,

** Huh ?

Same current, as that rating depends on cable and conductor thicknesses.


No,


** What I wrote is correct.

The strip will *handle" the same current so the power capacity will double.


to operate the same devices on 240 as on 120 it will only be
handling HALF the current.

** Really - the *same* devices ??

If the bar can handle the devices on 120,
it will have no problem, capacity-wize, on 240 because the current
will be MUCH lower.

** Only be true for wide range SMPS ( ie 90V to 260V) and those devices that
can be switched to 240V.



.... Phil

Did you read the thread????
The OP is using switch mode auto-switching or universal power
supplies. The "same device" IS being used, and it WILL drew half the
current on 240.

So my statement is 100% correct, and I'll stand behind it.

 

[Phil Allison]

<clare@snyder.on.ca>

I have done it numerous times. The bar will only run half as much
current on 240,

** Huh ?

Same current, as that rating depends on cable and conductor thicknesses.


No,


** What I wrote is correct.

The strip will *handle" the same current so the power capacity will
double.


to operate the same devices on 240 as on 120 it will only be
handling HALF the current.

** Really - the *same* devices ??

If the bar can handle the devices on 120,
it will have no problem, capacity-wize, on 240 because the current
will be MUCH lower.

** Only be true for wide range SMPS ( ie 90V to 260V) and those devices
that
can be switched to 240V.


Did you read the thread????

** Your words are the subject here.

So my statement is 100% correct,

** It is wrongly worded and misleading, for anyone except maybe a Canadian.




..... Phil

 

On Tue, 20 May 2014 13:30:33 +1000, "Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au>
wrote:

clare@snyder.on.ca

I have done it numerous times. The bar will only run half as much
current on 240,

** Huh ?

Same current, as that rating depends on cable and conductor thicknesses.


No,


** What I wrote is correct.

The strip will *handle" the same current so the power capacity will
double.


to operate the same devices on 240 as on 120 it will only be
handling HALF the current.

** Really - the *same* devices ??

If the bar can handle the devices on 120,
it will have no problem, capacity-wize, on 240 because the current
will be MUCH lower.

** Only be true for wide range SMPS ( ie 90V to 260V) and those devices
that
can be switched to 240V.


Did you read the thread????

** Your words are the subject here.


So my statement is 100% correct,


** It is wrongly worded and misleading, for anyone except maybe a Canadian.




.... Phil

Dumb yank takes everything out of context.
Smart Yanks and Canuks know what is being said

 

[Geoffrey S. Mendelson]

clare@snyder.on.ca wrote:

No, to operate the same devices on 240 as on 120 it will only be
handling HALF the current. If the bar can handle the devices on 120,
it will have no problem, capacity-wize, on 240 because the current
will be MUCH lower.

Not always true. With a linear supply it would be true, as the different
transformer windings would both convervt the voltage down to the same
low voltage.

Switching supplies are not all the same, and some just convert the incoming
power to 400Hz (or higher) AC,run it through a transformer and reduce it
to the outgoing voltage with a regulator. If the device is plugged into
a 120 volt socket, the output voltage of the transformer is 15 volts,
if it is plugged into a 240 volt socket, it would be 30 volts.

The internal regulator would even it out.

Current draw would be the same.

Geoff.
--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379

 

[Phil Allison]

<clare@snyder.on.ca>

"Phil Allison" :
clare@snyder.on.ca


If I go the route of bringing a US power strip, how would I know whether
a US 120V 60Hz power strip could handle the 240V 50Hz European power?


I have done it numerous times. The bar will only run half as much
current on 240,

** Huh ?

Same current, as that rating depends on cable and conductor thicknesses.


No,

** What I wrote is correct.

The strip will *handle" the same current so the power capacity will double.

to operate the same devices on 240 as on 120 it will only be
handling HALF the current.

** Really - the *same* devices ??

If the bar can handle the devices on 120,
it will have no problem, capacity-wize, on 240 because the current
will be MUCH lower.

** Only be true for wide range SMPS ( ie 90V to 260V) and those devices that
can be switched to 240V.



..... Phil

 

[William Sommerwerck]

"Phil Allison" wrote in message news:btvpg3FfvglU1@mid.individual.net...

to operate the same devices on 240 as on 120 it will only be
handling HALF the current.

** Really - the *same* devices ??

If the bar can handle the devices on 120,
it will have no problem, capacity-wize, on 240 because
the current will be MUCH lower.

** Only be true for wide range SMPS ( ie 90V to 260V) and those
devices that can be switched to 240V.


Yes, Phil. We know that, Phil. That's what we were talking about, Phil. [Pats
Phil's pate patronizingly.]

For someone named Phil, you certainly show little love for other people.

 

[William Sommerwerck]

"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" wrote in message
news:slrnlnls3f.6np.gsm@cable.mendelson.com...
clare@snyder.on.ca wrote:

No, to operate the same devices on 240 as on 120 it will only be
handling HALF the current. If the bar can handle the devices on 120,
it will have no problem, capacity-wize, on 240 because the current
will be MUCH lower.

Not always true. With a linear supply it would be true, as the different
transformer windings would both convert the voltage down to the same
low voltage.

Switching supplies are not all the same, and some just convert the incoming
power to 400Hz (or higher) AC, run it through a transformer and reduce it
to the outgoing voltage with a regulator. If the device is plugged into
a 120 volt socket, the output voltage of the transformer is 15 volts,
if it is plugged into a 240 volt socket, it would be 30 volts.

The internal regulator would even it out. Current draw would be the same.


I don't think that's correct. To (possibly over-) simplify things, at higher
line voltages, the pulse width will be narrower, and less charge will be drawn
from the filter caps. Ergo, less current will be pulled from the line.

 

On Tue, 20 May 2014 06:09:46 +0000 (UTC), "Geoffrey S. Mendelson"
<gsm@mendelson.com> wrote:

clare@snyder.on.ca wrote:
No, to operate the same devices on 240 as on 120 it will only be
handling HALF the current. If the bar can handle the devices on 120,
it will have no problem, capacity-wize, on 240 because the current
will be MUCH lower.

Not always true. With a linear supply it would be true, as the different
transformer windings would both convervt the voltage down to the same
low voltage.

Switching supplies are not all the same, and some just convert the incoming
power to 400Hz (or higher) AC,run it through a transformer and reduce it
to the outgoing voltage with a regulator. If the device is plugged into
a 120 volt socket, the output voltage of the transformer is 15 volts,
if it is plugged into a 240 volt socket, it would be 30 volts.

The internal regulator would even it out.

Current draw would be the same.

Geoff.

Reguardless - they will never draw MORE current from 240 than they
would on 120 - so current capacity is never going to be an issue - and
MOST will draw less current on 240. One of the advantages of switch
mode power supplies is higher efficiency.

 

On Tue, 20 May 2014 07:32:03 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
<grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote:

"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" wrote in message
news:slrnlnls3f.6np.gsm@cable.mendelson.com...
clare@snyder.on.ca wrote:
No, to operate the same devices on 240 as on 120 it will only be
handling HALF the current. If the bar can handle the devices on 120,
it will have no problem, capacity-wize, on 240 because the current
will be MUCH lower.

Not always true. With a linear supply it would be true, as the different
transformer windings would both convert the voltage down to the same
low voltage.

Switching supplies are not all the same, and some just convert the incoming
power to 400Hz (or higher) AC, run it through a transformer and reduce it
to the outgoing voltage with a regulator. If the device is plugged into
a 120 volt socket, the output voltage of the transformer is 15 volts,
if it is plugged into a 240 volt socket, it would be 30 volts.

The internal regulator would even it out. Current draw would be the same.


I don't think that's correct. To (possibly over-) simplify things, at higher
line voltages, the pulse width will be narrower, and less charge will be drawn
from the filter caps. Ergo, less current will be pulled from the line.

Don't confuse Phil with facts - his mind, such as it is, is already
made up.

 

[whit3rd]

On Sunday, May 18, 2014 1:53:37 PM UTC-7, Jessie Williams wrote:

...the US power strip will "see"
the full 240 volts of the European wall outlet.

But, I can't find any power strips at Home Depot or Lowes or Ace that
"says" it can handle the 240 volts.

No,m of course not; that's because there's no approved way (and
no fire-code permission) to put 240VAC onto any three-prong 120VAC
receptacle. The presumption is that someone would plug a
120VAC appliance into that socket, and cause a hazard.

It's impossible to make a permissive label without making
some kind of conribution to such hazard, so there'll be no label.
It would probably work, though, and one could test, or inspect, or
modify any number of items to achieve the desired result.

 

[Phil Allison]

"whit3rd"

But, I can't find any power strips at Home Depot or Lowes or Ace that
"says" it can handle the 240 volts.

No,of course not; that's because there's no approved way (and
no fire-code permission) to put 240VAC onto any three-prong 120VAC
receptacle. The presumption is that someone would plug a
120VAC appliance into that socket, and cause a hazard.

It's impossible to make a permissive label without making
some kind of conribution to such hazard, so there'll be no label.

** The bigger hazard is that of electric shock to the user.

A regular two prong US 120V plug is not finger safe ( for small hands and
fingers ) when partially inserted.

At 240V this is a big no no.



..... Phil