How best to dilute gasoline to use in a kitchen sink?

On Fri, 18 Nov 2016 22:15:33 -0500, micky <NONONOmisc07@bigfoot.com>
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 19 Nov 2016 00:05:58 -0000 (UTC), Robert
Bannon <rbannon@yahoo.spam.nowhere.invalid> wrote:


I've already tried all the common home chemicals from alcohol to acetone to
lemon juice to engine degreaser to dish detergent to brake cleaner to windex
to automatic-transmission fluid and MAF cleaner, all of which work sometimes
but all of which fail often (either because they melt the container or they
don't dissolve the goo).

I wamted to teach you about orange cleaner. It's not on your list.

I've even tried common flavorings such as orange blossom extract, rose

Not the same thing at all.

water, pure lemon extract, coconut oil and walnut oil, which, surprisingly,
are totally useless (but they do smell the best!).

d-limonene,

 

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 03:45:42 -0000 (UTC), Robert Bannon
<rbannon@yahoo.spam.nowhere.invalid> wrote:

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 01:23:05 -0000 (UTC), Robert Bannon wrote:

Or that I actually light a fire inside my fireplace using actual matches and
wood tinder (without calling the Fire Department hotline ahead of time)?

BTW, I don't mean to chastise you unduly, as you did try to help
scientifically.

It's just that telling me the obvious stuff about gasoline isn't helpful
since we all know the obvious stuff.

Of course, if mixing gasoline with, say, naphtha causes it to become
unstable or explosive or something like that which is NOT OBVIOUS, then by
all means warn me.

But to warn me that a chain saw can cut off my finger, or that I can fall
off a ladder or winding a garage door spring is dangerous or that running
while holding sharp scissors can hurt someone, is just wasting everyone's
time stating the obvious to people who know it already.

So, I'm ok with 'real' warnings. Just not useless California nanny warnings.
Make sense?

Naptha won't help the flammabilty/explosive danger. Butane is even
worse. Methanol is corrosive, VERY flammable and poisonous (absorbs
through the skin too)

Dichloromethane may be an alternative but it has serious health risks
as well

 

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 01:23:03 -0000 (UTC), Robert Bannon
<rbannon@yahoo.spam.nowhere.invalid> wrote:

On Fri, 18 Nov 2016 19:47:59 -0500, Frank wrote:

I have chemical suggestions but what you want to do is just plain dumb.

Men (real men) handle danger.

You never worked on a car engine?
Or rode a motorcycle?
Or used a chainsaw?

Men (real men) handle danger.
They just make sure they know what they're doing first.

That's why I'm asking the question in the first place.

But "real men" are not "totally" stupid. They mitigate danger where
it makes sense - and in your case it does. I hope you haven't fathered
any kids yet - the world doesn't need any more Bannons with yout
cheap-assed attitude. Buy a commercial goo remover that is safe
(relatively) to use - and use it outside in fresh air - because they
ALL STINK.

 

On Fri, 18 Nov 2016 19:25:35 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <esp@snet.net> wrote:

On 11/18/2016 7:05 PM, Robert Bannon wrote:
Any suggestions of common household chemicals that can dilute gasoline?


But gasoline has all the problems that most of you will love to "teach" me,
but that's not the question (so please don't try to teach me why gasoline
vapors are flammable and why I should goo-be-gone outdoors because I know
that).

Also please don't try to teach me that there are commercial lemon-oil
solutions.



Nope, won't even call you an idiot for using gasoline in the house. For
liability reasons though, I won't tell you what can dilute it because
none are truly safe.

I bet the guys down at the firehouse know what to use. You should go
down and ask them.

The only thing I know of that will "dilute" gasoline and make it
less flammable is Carbon Tet - which has serious safety issues itself
and has been illegal for years.

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 00:05:58 -0000 (UTC), Robert Bannon
<rbannon@yahoo.spam.nowhere.invalid> wrote:

>I use gasoline as a home goo-gone substitute for removing labels.

If the base material can tolerate some heat, use a hot air heat gun:
"How to Remove Stickers and Labels Using Heat"
<http://www.todayshomeowner.com/video/how-to-remove-stickers-and-labels-using-heat/>

I don't know what kind of labels you're using, but the ones that I
have to remove from customers laptops uses easy to remove rubber
cement type glue, that is easily dissolved with almost any hydrocarbon
solvent. The trick is to let the solvent soak into the paper label or
soften the edge of a metal label. I think I use paint thinner.

However, I sometimes run into old labels where the glue has hardened
to something like a rock. For those, I mechanically scrape off most
of the label with a plastic razor blade paint scraper, and then attack
with the solvent.
<https://www.amazon.com/Plastic-Double-Edged-Razor-Scraper/dp/B004623NU2>

Well, you could try using something that was actually formulated for
removing labels:
3M General Purpose Adhesive Cleaner, Quart, 08984
<https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00ZIM9XPI>
Ouch. Rather expensive at $25/quart.
SDS shows interesting and noxious chemicals:
<http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?mwsId=SSSSSuUn_zu8l00x4xt9PxmxOv70k17zHvu9lxtD7SSSSSS-->
Ingredient C.A.S. No. % by Wt
Xylene 1330-20-7 30 - 60 Trade Secret *
Hydrotreated Light Naphtha (Petroleum)
64742-49-0 30 - 60 Trade Secret *
Ethylbenzene 100-41-4 7 - 13 Trade Secret *
Toluene 108-88-3 0.5 - 1.5 Trade Secret *
Benzene 71-43-2 < 0.1 Trade Secret *
For naphtha, use Coleman camp fuel. Xylene and toluene are no longer
available in California, so those won't work.

There are made for purpose label removers, all of which really smell
awful. Goop-Off, Un-Du, Turtle Wax T-529, Goo-Gone, etc.

Then, there are the home concoctions:
<https://www.pinterest.com/explore/remove-sticky-labels/>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[JC]

On 11/18/2016 10:45 PM, Robert Bannon wrote:

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 01:23:05 -0000 (UTC), Robert Bannon wrote:

Or that I actually light a fire inside my fireplace using actual matches and
wood tinder (without calling the Fire Department hotline ahead of time)?

BTW, I don't mean to chastise you unduly, as you did try to help
scientifically.

It's just that telling me the obvious stuff about gasoline isn't helpful
since we all know the obvious stuff.

Of course, if mixing gasoline with, say, naphtha causes it to become
unstable or explosive or something like that which is NOT OBVIOUS, then by
all means warn me.

But to warn me that a chain saw can cut off my finger, or that I can fall
off a ladder or winding a garage door spring is dangerous or that running
while holding sharp scissors can hurt someone, is just wasting everyone's
time stating the obvious to people who know it already.

So, I'm ok with 'real' warnings. Just not useless California nanny warnings.
Make sense?

Well, I'm just really glad I don't live in Califailia. I do like my
solvents.

 

[Dean Hoffman]

On 11/18/16 8:02 PM, Robert Bannon wrote:

On Fri, 18 Nov 2016 17:15:08 -0800, Oren wrote:

Lighter fluid, NAPHTHA!

Did you try peanut butter on the labels?

Butane might cut gasoline, as you suggested. Naptha is almost certain
verboten in California.

But I'm not sure. It's got to be sold in order for me to use it
though.

I don't see naptha at Home Depot for example.
http://www.homedepot.com/b/Paint-Paint-Thinner-Additives-Solvents-Cleaners-Paint-Thinner-Solvents-Cleaners/Paint-Thinners-and-Strippers/N-5yc1vZc5bmZ1z0t5hf


Lantern fuel?

 

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 19 Nov 2016 00:05:58 -0000 (UTC), Robert
Bannon <rbannon@yahoo.spam.nowhere.invalid> wrote:

I've already tried all the common home chemicals from alcohol to acetone to
lemon juice to engine degreaser to dish detergent to brake cleaner to windex
to automatic-transmission fluid and MAF cleaner, all of which work sometimes
but all of which fail often (either because they melt the container or they
don't dissolve the goo).

I wamted to teach you about orange cleaner. It's not on your list.

I've even tried common flavorings such as orange blossom extract, rose

Not the same thing at all.

water, pure lemon extract, coconut oil and walnut oil, which, surprisingly,
are totally useless (but they do smell the best!).

 

[Mike Duffy]

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 03:45:42 -0000 (UTC), Robert Bannon wrote:

So, I'm ok with 'real' warnings. Just not useless California nanny warnings.
Make sense?

My favorite 'nanny' warning from childhood was on a package of sodium
hypochlorite pool conditioner: 'Do not mix with brake fluid'.

Who would ever get the idea to make such a mixture otherwise?

PS: Make sure you are outside if you want to try this. It would also be a
good idea to put on safety goggles as well. And be patient. When the smoke
starts, don't attempt to speed things up by adding more of anything.

 

[dadiOH]

"Robert Bannon" <rbannon@yahoo.spam.nowhere.invalid> wrote in message
news0o9ho$6m0$2@news.mixmin.net...

On Fri, 18 Nov 2016 19:37:42 -0500, dadiOH wrote:

oil
alcohol

The two-stroke oil idea made sense that it will mix with gasoline, but
it's
oily which seems to defeat the goal.

Use detergent after.

The alchol is almost certainly the best idea, but I was thinking
"ethanol",
which is only available diluted with water (as vodka, for example), which
is
too much water in California where even everclear is restricted in
concentration by the nanny state (and probably too expensive anyway).

If you live near the border, go to Tijuana, go to a liquor store and buy
agua diente, It is pure (180 proof) ethanol. Fifty years ago it was $0.50
per liter, going to be more now.

 

[Frank]

On 11/18/2016 11:43 PM, clare@snyder.on.ca wrote:

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 01:23:03 -0000 (UTC), Robert Bannon
rbannon@yahoo.spam.nowhere.invalid> wrote:

On Fri, 18 Nov 2016 19:47:59 -0500, Frank wrote:

I have chemical suggestions but what you want to do is just plain dumb.

Men (real men) handle danger.

You never worked on a car engine?
Or rode a motorcycle?
Or used a chainsaw?

Men (real men) handle danger.
They just make sure they know what they're doing first.

That's why I'm asking the question in the first place.
But "real men" are not "totally" stupid. They mitigate danger where
it makes sense - and in your case it does. I hope you haven't fathered
any kids yet - the world doesn't need any more Bannons with yout
cheap-assed attitude. Buy a commercial goo remover that is safe
(relatively) to use - and use it outside in fresh air - because they
ALL STINK.

+ He does not know that I am a retired chemist. I survived many fires
and explosions and release of toxic materials in the lab so I sorta know
what I am talking about. Then from the technical side, if the gasoline
is diluted the polar characteristics will change and it may not function
the same.

 

[Robert Bannon]

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 01:33:48 -0500, Mike Duffy wrote:

My favorite 'nanny' warning from childhood was on a package of sodium
hypochlorite pool conditioner: 'Do not mix with brake fluid'.

Who would ever get the idea to make such a mixture otherwise?

PS: Make sure you are outside if you want to try this. It would also be a
good idea to put on safety goggles as well. And be patient. When the smoke
starts, don't attempt to speed things up by adding more of anything.

Here, in California, we are so inundated with such silly nanny warnings that
we become inured to them.

It's a big business just selling the signs, for heaven's sake!
https://www.google.com/search?q=california+warning+stickers

 

[Robert Bannon]

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 10:51:07 -0600, amdx wrote:

I remove the labels on some 3.5 gallon food grade buckets by cutting
paper towel the size of the label, lay it over the label and then put
just enough Xylene on the paper towel to wet it. I wait 5 minutes and
the label will peel off whole with no problem. Sometimes I need to use
the paper towel to remove residual glue.
Before I found that, I could spend a hour scraping off the label. now
I can get 20 done in less than an hour.
Mikek

As Jeff said, we can't get Xylene in California.

 

[Robert Bannon]

On Fri, 18 Nov 2016 20:35:03 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Well, you could try using something that was actually formulated for
removing labels:
Ouch. Rather expensive at $25/quart.

Exactly.
1. Water, which is 1 cent a gallon, works fine to remove most paper labels
off of most grocery store jars (which is my application).

2. Gasoline, at $3 a gallon, works fine on most of the remaining underlying
goops. I use the gasoline outside, and I wash the jar of the gasoline, but
the stink still transfers into the house unless I air it outside for a day.

3. When the underlying goop is resistant to gasoline, usually acetone or MAF
cleaner does the trick.

That's my cheap, readily available 2-step (sometimes 3-step) process for
removing labels from food jars for further use of the jar.

MSDS shows interesting and noxious chemicals:
http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?mwsId=SSSSSuUn_zu8l00x4xt9PxmxOv70k17zHvu9lxtD7SSSSSS--
Ingredient C.A.S. No. % by Wt
Xylene 1330-20-7 30 - 60 Trade Secret *
Hydrotreated Light Naphtha (Petroleum)
64742-49-0 30 - 60 Trade Secret *
Ethylbenzene 100-41-4 7 - 13 Trade Secret *
Toluene 108-88-3 0.5 - 1.5 Trade Secret *
Benzene 71-43-2 < 0.1 Trade Secret *

Like you, I love the MSDS because they give you the list of noxious things
in the can (they don't need to list non-noxious stuff though).

This one looks suspiciously similar to gasoline, by the way, in that
gasoline contains the same stuff (almost certainly in different percentages
though).

For naphtha, use Coleman camp fuel. Xylene and toluene are no longer
available in California, so those won't work.

I definately tried Coleman Camp Fuel in the past, since I had about 4 cans
of the stuff. It didn't work anywhere nearly as well as gasoline did, and it
stunk too. It's almost certainly less flammable though.

I also tried charcoal lighter fluid, which was just as bad at removing the
goop as was the Coleman fuel.

So, whatever they put in those cans, is no good for the task of removing the
underlying goop under labels (once the label is removed by soaking in
water).

There are made for purpose label removers, all of which really smell
awful. Goop-Off, Un-Du, Turtle Wax T-529, Goo-Gone, etc.

Yup. The label removers are no better than gasoline, as far as I know, when
it comes to removing the underlying adhesive under most food-jar labels.

They're only better than gasoline in that they're not flammable, which is
why I use the gasoline outside currently.

Then, there are the home concoctions:
https://www.pinterest.com/explore/remove-sticky-labels/

Not one of those seems to use gasoline, even though it's clearly and
obviously a fantastic solvent (which I've used for years and which works
fine for removing the goop).

The main problem with gasoline is that it needs to be used outside.

 

[Robert Bannon]

On Fri, 18 Nov 2016 23:52:10 -0500, clare@snyder.on.ca wrote:

> d-limonene,

Fran, the retired chemist, will have to let us know *how* that d-limonene
works for removing the goop.

Remember, removing most labels is so easy to do with just plain old soaking
in water, that the problem isn't removing the label.

The problem is removing the underlying goop.

 

[Robert Bannon]

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 08:30:51 -0500, Frank wrote:

+ He does not know that I am a retired chemist. I survived many fires
and explosions and release of toxic materials in the lab so I sorta know
what I am talking about. Then from the technical side, if the gasoline
is diluted the polar characteristics will change and it may not function
the same.

That's interesting that you're a retired chemist.
My chemistry training stopped after Organic Chemistry (Morrison and Boyd) in
college.

Water is polar.
But are you sure gasoline is polar?

There must be a good reason gasoline is the best solvent for removing label
goop, so, if you're saying the reason is its polarity, all we need to do is
find a solvent with similar polarity.

But I've never found a solvent better than gasoline for removing the
underlying goop (although no one solvent works at all times).

I'll google to see if gasoline is polar, but it may get complex because
there is no one "chemical" called "gasoline". It's a mix of alkanes,
alkenes, alkynes and aromatics (but I'll doublecheck since that's off the
cuff).

 

[Robert Bannon]

On Fri, 18 Nov 2016 23:43:42 -0500, clare@snyder.on.ca wrote:

> But "real men" are not "totally" stupid.

Agreed.
We wear goggles (sometimes) when cutting wood.

But, do you read the warning on California hammers?
They suggest you wear goggles every time you hammer a nail.

Nothing wrong with goggles. I have a half dozen myself.
But every time you hammer a nail?

They mitigate danger where
it makes sense - and in your case it does.

I wear a helmet, boots, and gloves when I ride a motorcycle.
You don't need to tell me that riding a motorcycle is dangerous.

Tell me something I don't know.
Otherwise you're wasting everyone's time.

That was my only point in preventing people telling me that the otherwise
excellent solvent has deleterious properties (that everyone already knows).

I hope you haven't fathered
any kids yet - the world doesn't need any more Bannons with yout
cheap-assed attitude.

Grandkids. All Roman Catholic.
You're doomed.

Buy a commercial goo remover that is safe
(relatively) to use - and use it outside in fresh air - because they
ALL STINK.

1. Water works fine to remove most paper labels.
Water is much cheaper than anything else you can suggest for removing the
label.

2. Gasoline works fine to remove most goop under the labels.
The only problem with gasoline is that it (a) stinks and (b) is flammable.
Outside is no problem, which is how I do it currently.

But the goal is to dilute the gasoline 10:1 so that it can be stored and
used inside. The scientific trick is to find a good diluent that negates the
deleterious properties of the gasoline.

If that's too difficult a scientific problem for you, I understand.
Engineering a solution isn't always as simple as buying something off the
shelf.

 

[Robert Bannon]

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 07:04:41 -0500, dadiOH wrote:

If you live near the border, go to Tijuana, go to a liquor store and buy
agua diente, It is pure (180 proof) ethanol. Fifty years ago it was $0.50
per liter, going to be more now.

California is a big state (which is why they get away with being whacko)
where I'm nowhere near the border. Too bad. That's a great price for 90%
alcohol and 10% water.

 

[Robert Bannon]

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 11:57:56 -0500, clare@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Gasoline does the same thing. Might take twice as long but you still
measure it in seconds and fractions there-of.

Yup. Every kid has melted a huge box of stryofoam peanuts into a cup of
gasoline to make what the kids call 'napalm' (at least we did in the Vietnam
war days when we were young kids).

 

[Robert Bannon]

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 09:39:11 -0500, bitrex wrote:

One time, not thinking what I was doing, I poured a little hardware
store acetone into a Styrofoam cup, and instantly ended up with a big
gloppy mess of acetone and melted Styrofoam on my lap.

Every kid I know of (including me) has made what we called "napalm" simply
by melting the Styrofoam peanuts into a cup of gasoline.

We made better jellied gasoline using dish detergent, but I think it's a
pretty common experience for kids world wide to melt styrofoam into
gasoline.

All kids made pipe bombs too, which were far more dangerous when you compare
it, just as we all mixed the pool chemicals that exploded in a gush. Most of
the time we were more cautious than we needed to be, especially when playing
with the M80's under the ice.