Guy Macon, do you have anything to contribute?

[Guy Macon]

Frank Bemelman <f.bemelmanx@planet.invalid.nl> says...

If it really bothers you, just post under an alias,

What, and miss all the extra money I get from people who read newsgroups???

for you

What a pal!

 

[Al Borowski]

My point is VERY few of the posts have anything to do with DESIGN.

My uP POST inquired as to WHERE was the best place to start acquiring
uP skills. I didn't fire one up without even a clue as to how to
understand what my meter was telling me.

Thats why I did, and I learnt OK. I've only fried one chip so far
(knocks on wood)

I'll be programming a uP way before Pinnell will be able to design a
simple audio amplifier ;-)

We'll see. Let the race begin!

cheers,

Al

...Jim Thompson

 

[Active8]

On Thu, 20 May 2004 18:23:58 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Fri, 21 May 2004 11:12:47 +1000, Al Borowski
aj.borowski@erasethis.student.qut.edu.au> wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
On Thu, 20 May 2004 23:45:10 +0100, Terry Pinnell
terrypinDELETE@THISdial.pipex.com> wrote:

Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com> wrote:


Though this group includes "design" in its name, in reality there is a
paucity of "design" topics seen here.

Most of what you might call on-topic are things like "I can't get my
stereo to work" or "Distortion from audio power amp", things that
belong in sci.electronics.basic because the posters haven't yet
reached the level of analyzing/solving on paper... they're hackers
with no actual training/knowledge in electronics.

From anyone else that would be incredibly breathtaking arrogance! But
from you it's now almost expected.

You poor twit... from your "Distortion from audio power amp" post it's
clear you can't even CALCULATE the output bias point or the quiescent
current. I'm not sure you can even manage Ohm's Law.


On the other hand, didn't you ask how to get into simple
microcontrollers a while back? Thats first/second year university stuff
these days

I'm not trying to start an arguement, but everyone has some area in this
huge field where they lack experience. I read this group primilary to
learn more.

Then if you're looking for design/analysis, buy some text books
'cause Jim's correct. There's a dearth of that here. There are
however some threads about the non-math aspects of design.

One thing that disgusts those of us (or at least myself) that eat,
sleep, live, chew up and spit out electronics is retards that can't
(or won't even try [to learn to]) apply goddamned algebra ( forget
higher math - they'd fucking die ) to a problem before hardcharging
the mains dick first. Posting .basic questions in SED...

(Did I mention commie cockbreaths and pussies that couldn't last an
hour in the woods without TP and a cell phone? )

.... It's become so commonplace that I don't even flinch anymore. I
sometimes get these Fred Bloggs type thoughts, but I wait and hope
for his (or Genome's) reply because it's much funnier.

We (as opposed to the Asians) must have chosen to become stupid at
some point. A country that had the first cotton gin and other labor
saving devices, now sends work to cheap labor countries while they
build automated factories over here and save on labor (and export?)
costs that way. Sorry. I digress, but it pisses me off. So much
innovation is now just piss in the wind.

Just this week it was announced that this area will lose TRW (auto
valve division) and Berwick Industries (bows and ribbons). Two
"major" employers. TRW's going to Mexico and BI... I forgot. PA
state even offered grant money to TRW to get them to stay, but they
said it's to late to change their minds even now that they know.
They used to employ many but have been down to around 150 employees.
They even stated turning a profit again.

The only solution I can figure is to become competative to gain
market share and thereby require more employees in spite of a more
efficient, automated line. That could only be accomplished if the
bix ad and finance dweebs would wake up and spend some bucks on a
professional that can integrate a network of microcontrollers with
some analog controls who can communicate with a Mech E who knows his
shit (my cousin) and deal with the assholes who manage the flesh and
blood controls which are a part of the controlled plant. Then they'd
have to properly maintain the equipment rather than having the
inefficient flesh and blood *force* it to work.

As it stands, the equipment is for the scrap heap. But some Mexican
can spend a bunch of extra time operating it since he works for
beans (Mexican peanuts )

cheers,

Al

My point is VERY few of the posts have anything to do with DESIGN.

Yup, Jim.

You've said it before and I'll concur again. Call me breathtakingly
arrogant, please.

How to operate a strobe light off a bass drum is for
alt.jackoff.erectorsets (or is it erectionsets?)

IMO, the ink and thought spent on the blank side of an old printout
( effectively recycling twice that way ) makes up for the time
wasted swapping parts and twiddling sims, though the latter has it's
uses.

As useful as a circuit out of a book may be as a starting point, it
ain't cooked right if the chemistry wasn't checked prior to applying
heat. Furthermore, it's an increadibly boring, unedifying, and
otherwise intellectually profitless endeavor.

The boring part, IMO, is playing "what if" games with component
specs, and there's one good use for a sim. It's only fun if I can
write a derivative like change in bias point WRT change in temp, for
e.g., but as you said, it's the presentation that sells and I'd have
to MathCAD the eq to present it.

I for one will be greatful if you'd put the results of your multi
..PARAM endeavor on your site. Sounds like it could be used for a
Monte Carlo on steroids Like a PSpice partial diff eq, no?

Besides being busy, did you get disgusted with posting design
challenges?

My uP POST inquired as to WHERE was the best place to start acquiring
uP skills.

I didn't see that Jim, but I'm sure you at least got PICList and
avrfreaks.xxx - the mfg sites are obvious.

Oh yeah... Olin Lathrop's library/framework and preprocessor for
PICs is worth a shot. Time spent learning it would save time later.

http://www.embedinc.com

IIRC. And there's

http://www.st-anna-data.se

He's written a pdf "tutorial" for the above toolkit. It'll save time
figuring things out.

I didn't fire one up without even a clue as to how to
understand what my meter was telling me.

I'll be programming a uP way before Pinnell will be able to design a
simple audio amplifier ;-)

After doing the research I designed and built my programmer in a few
hours - just had to find a free loader that would drive it and add
terminators to the "longer than anyone believed would work" || cable
- it worked. It was child's play. I don't have a PCB made yet and
it's *one ugly lashup* but not near as ugly as the latest target
circuit

--
Best Regards,
Mike

 

[Terry Given]

"Guy Macon" <http://www.guymacon.com> wrote in message
news:eNqdnfoVhogSVTDdRVn-tw@speakeasy.net...

Frank Bemelman <f.bemelmanx@planet.invalid.nl> says...

You can't have everything

Where would I put it?

Inside your Tardis of course ;}

Cheers
Terry

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Fri, 21 May 2004 07:58:41 -0400, Active8 <reply2group@ndbbm.net>
wrote:

On Thu, 20 May 2004 18:23:58 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Fri, 21 May 2004 11:12:47 +1000, Al Borowski
aj.borowski@erasethis.student.qut.edu.au> wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
On Thu, 20 May 2004 23:45:10 +0100, Terry Pinnell
terrypinDELETE@THISdial.pipex.com> wrote:

Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com> wrote:


Though this group includes "design" in its name, in reality there is a
paucity of "design" topics seen here.

Most of what you might call on-topic are things like "I can't get my
stereo to work" or "Distortion from audio power amp", things that
belong in sci.electronics.basic because the posters haven't yet
reached the level of analyzing/solving on paper... they're hackers
with no actual training/knowledge in electronics.

From anyone else that would be incredibly breathtaking arrogance! But
from you it's now almost expected.

You poor twit... from your "Distortion from audio power amp" post it's
clear you can't even CALCULATE the output bias point or the quiescent
current. I'm not sure you can even manage Ohm's Law.


On the other hand, didn't you ask how to get into simple
microcontrollers a while back? Thats first/second year university stuff
these days

I'm not trying to start an arguement, but everyone has some area in this
huge field where they lack experience. I read this group primilary to
learn more.

Then if you're looking for design/analysis, buy some text books
'cause Jim's correct. There's a dearth of that here. There are
however some threads about the non-math aspects of design.

One thing that disgusts those of us (or at least myself) that eat,
sleep, live, chew up and spit out electronics is retards that can't
(or won't even try [to learn to]) apply goddamned algebra ( forget
higher math - they'd fucking die ) to a problem before hardcharging
the mains dick first. Posting .basic questions in SED...

(Did I mention commie cockbreaths and pussies that couldn't last an
hour in the woods without TP and a cell phone? )

... It's become so commonplace that I don't even flinch anymore. I
sometimes get these Fred Bloggs type thoughts, but I wait and hope
for his (or Genome's) reply because it's much funnier.

We (as opposed to the Asians) must have chosen to become stupid at
some point. A country that had the first cotton gin and other labor
saving devices, now sends work to cheap labor countries while they
build automated factories over here and save on labor (and export?)
costs that way. Sorry. I digress, but it pisses me off. So much
innovation is now just piss in the wind.

Just this week it was announced that this area will lose TRW (auto
valve division) and Berwick Industries (bows and ribbons). Two
"major" employers. TRW's going to Mexico and BI... I forgot. PA
state even offered grant money to TRW to get them to stay, but they
said it's to late to change their minds even now that they know.
They used to employ many but have been down to around 150 employees.
They even stated turning a profit again.

The only solution I can figure is to become competative to gain
market share and thereby require more employees in spite of a more
efficient, automated line. That could only be accomplished if the
bix ad and finance dweebs would wake up and spend some bucks on a
professional that can integrate a network of microcontrollers with
some analog controls who can communicate with a Mech E who knows his
shit (my cousin) and deal with the assholes who manage the flesh and
blood controls which are a part of the controlled plant. Then they'd
have to properly maintain the equipment rather than having the
inefficient flesh and blood *force* it to work.

As it stands, the equipment is for the scrap heap. But some Mexican
can spend a bunch of extra time operating it since he works for
beans (Mexican peanuts )

cheers,

Al

My point is VERY few of the posts have anything to do with DESIGN.

Yup, Jim.

You've said it before and I'll concur again. Call me breathtakingly
arrogant, please.

How to operate a strobe light off a bass drum is for
alt.jackoff.erectorsets (or is it erectionsets?)

IMO, the ink and thought spent on the blank side of an old printout
( effectively recycling twice that way ) makes up for the time
wasted swapping parts and twiddling sims, though the latter has it's
uses.

As useful as a circuit out of a book may be as a starting point, it
ain't cooked right if the chemistry wasn't checked prior to applying
heat. Furthermore, it's an increadibly boring, unedifying, and
otherwise intellectually profitless endeavor.

The boring part, IMO, is playing "what if" games with component
specs, and there's one good use for a sim. It's only fun if I can
write a derivative like change in bias point WRT change in temp, for
e.g., but as you said, it's the presentation that sells and I'd have
to MathCAD the eq to present it.

I for one will be greatful if you'd put the results of your multi
.PARAM endeavor on your site. Sounds like it could be used for a
Monte Carlo on steroids Like a PSpice partial diff eq, no?

Besides being busy, did you get disgusted with posting design
challenges?


My uP POST inquired as to WHERE was the best place to start acquiring
uP skills.

I didn't see that Jim, but I'm sure you at least got PICList and
avrfreaks.xxx - the mfg sites are obvious.

Oh yeah... Olin Lathrop's library/framework and preprocessor for
PICs is worth a shot. Time spent learning it would save time later.

http://www.embedinc.com

IIRC. And there's

http://www.st-anna-data.se

He's written a pdf "tutorial" for the above toolkit. It'll save time
figuring things out.

I didn't fire one up without even a clue as to how to
understand what my meter was telling me.

I'll be programming a uP way before Pinnell will be able to design a
simple audio amplifier ;-)

After doing the research I designed and built my programmer in a few
hours - just had to find a free loader that would drive it and add
terminators to the "longer than anyone believed would work" || cable
- it worked. It was child's play. I don't have a PCB made yet and
it's *one ugly lashup* but not near as ugly as the latest target
circuit

Dear "breathtakingly arrogant" Activ8, Thanks for the support. With
all the backlash I thought I'd committed the final sin ;-)

You write well, expressing all the concerns I have, but I can only
fume and spit.

As many here know, I interview high school students as part of the
admission process to MIT. The competency level is dropping like a
rock. It is down-right scary how little students know anymore.
Thousands of Pinnell-dweebs.

I did determine, though, where people can get employment if they're
too dumb to flip burgers... Fryes Electronics ;-)

I wonder sometimes if we aren't in for a depression... we're certainly
going down for the count. China is going to be the super power and
we're heading for a Euro-trash existence.

Now back to the work world...

I WILL post the multi-param procedure as soon as I'm thru with the
design review (week of June 7, at the foot of Cheyenne Mountain

(It IS "it's the presentation that sells", though the presentation has
to demonstrate hard facts; no "I twiddled this knob and this
transistor burned up, but I don't have a clue" speeches allowed

Regards,

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[Guy Macon]

Al Borowski says...

Jim Thompson wrote:

I'll be programming a uP way before Pinnell will be able to design a
simple audio amplifier ;-)

We'll see. Let the race begin!

Who gets to be the Referee and Judge?

 

[Guy Macon]

Active8 <reply2group@ndbbm.net> says...

Then if you're looking for design/analysis, buy some text books
'cause Jim's correct. There's a dearth of that here. There are
however some threads about the non-math aspects of design.

One thing that disgusts those of us (or at least myself) that eat,
sleep, live, chew up and spit out electronics is retards that can't
(or won't even try [to learn to]) apply goddamned algebra ( forget
higher math - they'd fucking die ) to a problem before hardcharging
the mains dick first. Posting .basic questions in SED...

(Did I mention commie cockbreaths and pussies that couldn't last an
hour in the woods without TP and a cell phone? )

... It's become so commonplace that I don't even flinch anymore. I
sometimes get these Fred Bloggs type thoughts, but I wait and hope
for his (or Genome's) reply because it's much funnier.

I blame the ability to crosspost between sci.electronics.design
and sci.electronics.basic - no post belongs in both groups, yet a
few dedicated dunderheads keep crossposting.

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Fri, 21 May 2004 11:57:42 -0700, Guy Macon
<http://www.guymacon.com> wrote:

Al Borowski says...

Jim Thompson wrote:

I'll be programming a uP way before Pinnell will be able to design a
simple audio amplifier ;-)

We'll see. Let the race begin!

Who gets to be the Referee and Judge?

Do we need same?

If I can show a working uP project that I wrote myself wouldn't that
suffice?

I'll just ask my buddies at MicroChip to show me the best learning
method and I'll hop to it ;-)

Remember it says "design"... Pinnell can only use copied schematics,
and can't do math... how is he going to explain WHY it works ?

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[Guy Macon]

Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com> says...

As many here know, I interview high school students as part of the
admission process to MIT. The competency level is dropping like a
rock. It is down-right scary how little students know anymore.

A few years back I overheard the following conversation in the HR
department of a major corporation"

"I have a resume here - looks like he has the experience and
education that we are looking for."

"Does he have a Degree?"

"Yup, a Bachelors."

"Did he get it back when that meant something?"

"He graduated 30 years ago, so he is from the days when they
actually taught you things in school."

"Call him and arrange an interview."

 

[Guy Macon]

Terry Given <the_domes@xtra.co.nz> says...

"Guy Macon" <http://www.guymacon.com> wrote...

Frank Bemelman <f.bemelmanx@planet.invalid.nl> says...

You can't have everything

Where would I put it?

Inside your Tardis of course ;}

I am speechless.

 

[Terry Given]

"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:146sa09fl6i4q17nt5rh6g5jjbkhhtpgqa@4ax.com...

On Fri, 21 May 2004 07:58:41 -0400, Active8 <reply2group@ndbbm.net
wrote:

[snip mikes excellent post, cos its long....]

Dear "breathtakingly arrogant" Activ8, Thanks for the support. With
all the backlash I thought I'd committed the final sin ;-)

You write well, expressing all the concerns I have, but I can only
fume and spit.

As many here know, I interview high school students as part of the
admission process to MIT. The competency level is dropping like a
rock. It is down-right scary how little students know anymore.
Thousands of Pinnell-dweebs.

I did determine, though, where people can get employment if they're
too dumb to flip burgers... Fryes Electronics ;-)

I wonder sometimes if we aren't in for a depression... we're certainly
going down for the count. China is going to be the super power and
we're heading for a Euro-trash existence.

Now back to the work world...

I WILL post the multi-param procedure as soon as I'm thru with the
design review (week of June 7, at the foot of Cheyenne Mountain

(It IS "it's the presentation that sells", though the presentation has
to demonstrate hard facts; no "I twiddled this knob and this
transistor burned up, but I don't have a clue" speeches allowed

Regards,

...Jim Thompson

Hi Jim,

its scary, isnt it. I tutor electronics at the local high school (for free -
payback for my old high school physics teacher who ran an after-school
electronics club, in his own time and with his own money, for which I was
profoundly ungrateful at the time, but have since learned to appreciate).
These kids are in their last year of high school, and NONE of them can do
enough algebra to re-arrange Ohms law. Hell, they cant even find the
reciprocal button on their calculators! All I have done this year is algebra
tutorials - without it, they are completely lost. Why have they not been
taught the grammar and syntax of mathematics? As for calculus, forget it!
Clearly the US is not the only country producing students who are far
stupider than earlier generations.

Come to think of it, schools in NZ no longer teach spelling - I went crook
at my 9yr old daughters teacher a while back, she only corrects spelling on
"published" works (those put on the noticeboard). When I asked her how Kate
would know a word was spelled incorrectly if no-one pointed it out, she was
dumbstruck (actually I think the dumb part was genetic , and agreed to
correct all spelling mistakes. Kate has since gone from being a lousy
speller to a competent one, in about 6 months, just by having feedback. As
an aside, my pet peeve is Word documents with spelling mistakes - for fucks
sake, how hard is it to click on the spell-check button ?!

A young tech I have worked with for about 6 years recently completed his
BE - almost no electromagnetism, not much maths, lots of simulations, no
design skills taught whatsoever. He's a smart guy with a wealth of practical
experience, and stood head-and-shoulders above the rest. After he graduated
(1st class hons, well done Jared!) we talked a bit, and sure enough, he has
learnt 4/5 of 5/8 of fuck all at uni. Only the calculus papers were any real
use to him, as he could then understand the maths in various texts I lent
him - he's turning into a good designer. The rest of his class is pretty
much doomed though - he had a number of arguments with his lecturers about
aspects of electronics - he came to me for verification a few times, and we
proved he was right (they didnt appreciate that). His lecturers all had
PhDs, and NONE had EVER had a job - BE, ME, PhD, lecturer - or for that
matter designed a "real" circuit (one that someone paid for, and were happy
with)

There was a hilarious british doco/reality tv show that played on NZ tv a
while back - "That'll teach them." A group of 16yr old pommy students were
put into a 1950's boarding school, with all that entails (Pink Floyd-like
teachers etc). After a week or so, the students were given a 1950's maths
test for **11 year olds**. NONE PASSED! They werent allowed to use
calculators, and were completely lost. I think that proves conclusively that
teaching students to use calculators does exactly that - it does NOT teach
them mathematics.

I personally do all my rough design calc's by hand, to get the order of
magnitude of my answer (alas, I missed slide rules , and a rough hack at
the right value, before flopping out my HP28S. At least that way I can see
if I made a mistake.....The kids at school didnt believe me when I said
that, so I showed them a few workbooks. They especially liked the bits where
I found a mistake (P=(V^2)*R is perhaps the most embarassing one to date -
noticed when my 5V 100k resistor was thought to dissipate MW , went back
to the root cause, then corrected my working.

On the bright side, as Gore Vidal once said, "it is not enough to succeed -
others must fail" - the plethora of fools pouring out of universities just
makes those of us with skills look even better. I am not looking forward to
grey hair though - employers often dont like older people (Im a boy really,
35, but I have worked with, and learned lots from, many older engineers. I
hire them too), and seem to prefer young grads with no skills. But hey, they
can all write really cool webpages. Alas, many managers wouldnt know "total
cost of ownership" if it leapt up and bit them on the arse.

Many thanks to ALL the experts (Win, Jim, Peter, activ8, genome, the list
goes on) who post really useful info on SED - I have certainly learned a lot
in my time here.

Cheers from Aotearoa, New Zealand,
Terry

 

[Terry Given]

"Guy Macon" <http://www.guymacon.com> wrote in message
news:l_ednQmOBOy3yTPdRVn-uw@speakeasy.net...

Terry Given <the_domes@xtra.co.nz> says...

"Guy Macon" <http://www.guymacon.com> wrote...

Frank Bemelman <f.bemelmanx@planet.invalid.nl> says...

You can't have everything

Where would I put it?

Inside your Tardis of course ;}

I am speechless.

Hi Guy, I figured someone would find it funny. why is it that so many EE's
seem to have a similar sense of humour?

Cheers from Aotearoa, New Zealand
Terry

 

[Chaos Master]

mv /var/posts//Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com> /dev/null:

Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com> says...

My point is VERY few of the posts have anything to do with DESIGN.

I figure that just segregating the posts about smoking and Osama is
tough enough.

I'll be programming a uP way before Pinnell will be able to design a
simple audio amplifier ;-)

I would prefer that my name not be in the subject line of the flame
war that is starting.

Why not to solve this quickly: filter everything with [OT] in the subject?
Nobody gets killed and all we get is peace.

[]s

--
Chaos MasterŽ | "I'm going under,
Posting from Brazil! | drowning in you
ICQ: 126375906 | I'm falling forever,
ask for e-mail/MSN | I've got to break through"
---------------------. -- Evanescence, "Going Under"

 

[Rich Grise]

"Guy Macon" <http://www.guymacon.com> wrote in message
news:WuKdncm-pN4vRDHdRVn-tA@speakeasy.net...

But now you have already given up just because Rich mistyped the
header or what?

Yes. If Rich or anyone else decides to sabotage the scheme, there
is no point in pursuing it. For it to work we need a few people
who are helping, no people who are sabotaging, and the vast majority
ignoring the whole thing and just replying as usual.

I quit. Rich "wins".

Oh, heavens. I tried to explain in another thread that I was just
funning with Guy.

But I think when I see a Subject like,

"Re: Bush blames others for high oil prices"

it's pretty obvious that it's probably not about electronics, and I
can tell my newsreader to mark that header read instad of D/Ling
the whole post.

And I think that there are enough people who use some variation on
"OT:" that they don't need a rule to tell them to, and few enough
of them that I think with a little planning, you could write a
filter that wouldn't choke.

Good Luck!
Rich

 

[Guy Macon]

Rich Grise <null@example.net> says...

Oh, heavens. I tried to explain in another thread that I was just
funning with Guy.

I do have a sense of humor, but I hide it well...

But I think when I see a Subject like,

"Re: Bush blames others for high oil prices"

it's pretty obvious that it's probably not about electronics,

I am attempting to save people the trouble of marking several
such threads per day.

And I think that there are enough people who use some variation on
"OT:" that they don't need a rule to tell them to, and few enough
of them that I think with a little planning, you could write a
filter that wouldn't choke.

I, on the other hand, believe that a bunch of engineers can agree
on a standard way rather than requiring the user to write a more
sophisticated filter. Think of it as a social experimet; take a
bunch of engineers who are 100% free to do as they choose and
politely ask them to do something that is really, really easy
to do. Can thet cooperate on even a simple thing, or will one or
more exercise their freedom and sabatoge the effort?

 

[Guy Macon]

Rich Grise <null@example.net> says...

Oh, heavens. I tried to explain in another thread that I was just
funning with Guy.

I do have a sense of humor, but I hide it well...

But I think when I see a Subject like,

"Re: Bush blames others for high oil prices"

it's pretty obvious that it's probably not about electronics,

I am attempting to save people the trouble of marking several
such threads per day.

And I think that there are enough people who use some variation on
"OT:" that they don't need a rule to tell them to, and few enough
of them that I think with a little planning, you could write a
filter that wouldn't choke.

I, on the other hand, believe that a bunch of engineers can agree
on a standard way rather than requiring the user to write a more
sophisticated filter. Think of it as a social experimet; take a
bunch of engineers who are 100% free to do as they choose and
politely ask them to do something that is really, really easy
to do. Can thet cooperate on even a simple thing, or will one or
more exercise their freedom and sabatoge the effort?

 

[Guy Macon]

Terry Given <the_domes@xtra.co.nz> says...

its scary, isnt it. I tutor electronics at the local high school (for free -
payback for my old high school physics teacher who ran an after-school
electronics club, in his own time and with his own money, for which I was
profoundly ungrateful at the time, but have since learned to appreciate).
These kids are in their last year of high school, and NONE of them can do
enough algebra to re-arrange Ohms law. Hell, they cant even find the
reciprocal button on their calculators! All I have done this year is algebra
tutorials - without it, they are completely lost. Why have they not been
taught the grammar and syntax of mathematics? As for calculus, forget it!

It's sad. What is even sadder is that those who go to the bother to
learn the important things on their own are passed over in favor of
someone who has a degree but no education.

There are, however, some schools that do a really good job.


In the July 1994 _Communications of the ACM_ there is an
interview with Marvin Minsky (former director of the MIT AI
lab, widely considered to be one of the fathers of
artificial intelligence, and an occasional collaborator of
Seymour Papert's).

Here is a portion of that interview:

(Interviewer): ...For an older student in a conservatory, we
can imagine having to study Gregorian chants for a few
months before getting any highly (positive) feedback. But in
the case of a five-year-old child learning piano or
composing, we cannot depend only on delayed feedback or
abstract feedback.

Minsky: I'm afraid that's true, at least for most young
children, but the evidence is that many of our foremost
achievers developed under conditions that are not much like
those of present-day mass education. Robert Lawler just
showed me a paper by Harold Macurdy on the child pattern of
genius. Macurdy reviews the early education of many eminent
people from the last couple of centuries and concludes
that most of them had an enormous amount of attention paid
to them by one or both parents and that generally they
were relatively isolated from other children. This is very
different from what most people today consider an ideal
school. It seems to me that much of what we call education
is really socialization. Consider what we do to our kids. Is
it really a good idea to send your 6-year-old into a room
full of 6-year-olds, and then, the next year, to put your
7-year-old in with 7-year-olds, and so on? A simple
recursive argument suggests this exposes them to a real
danger of all growing up with the minds of 6-year-olds. And,
so far as I can see, that's exactly what happens.
Our present culture may be largely shaped by this strange
idea of isolating children's thought from adult thought.
Perhaps the way our culture educates its children better
explains why most of us come out as dumb as they do, than it
explains how some of us come out as smart as they do.

 

[Guy Macon]

Terry Given <the_domes@xtra.co.nz> says...

Come to think of it, schools in NZ no longer teach spelling

Here is the reason why:

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/historytour/history1.htm

 

[Guy Macon]

Chaos Master <chaos_master@ig.com.br> says...

Nobody gets killed and all we get is peace.

But killing people is so much *fun*!

 

[Al Borowski]

<massive snip>

Then if you're looking for design/analysis, buy some text books
'cause Jim's correct. There's a dearth of that here. There are
however some threads about the non-math aspects of design.

I have a wall of textbooks. I have still learnt much by reading this
group over the years.

Hopefully all the offtopic crap here will die down again soon.

Al