Greenland's ice sheet just lost 11 billion tons of ice -- in

On Fri, 2 Aug 2019 17:36:59 -0700 (PDT), Bill Sloman
<bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:

On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 10:03:07 AM UTC+10, John Robertson wrote:
On 2019/08/02 4:20 p.m., Winfield Hill wrote:
Jeroen Belleman wrote...

On 2019-08-03 00:44, Martin Riddle wrote:

Well, it has gained over a trillion tons of ice in the last 2 years,
and of course they didnt mention it. Going for the shock factor I
guess

https://climatechangedispatch.com/greenland-gains-massive-amounts-of-ice-second-year-in-a-row/

I hate it when they do that. 11 billion tons is equivalent to
about 6mm of ice. Nothing spectacular to lose that much in one
summer day. But they have a point to make, haven't they?

Apparently it's been going on for 4 months (a very early
start, 6mm * 120 days is 0.7m) and now picking up steam.
But it looks like the alarm bells are coming from the
researchers, who are in a better place than the rest of
us to be alarmed or not.

My eyebrows went up when the temp at the north pole went
above 65F recently. This after the temps at the north
pole were higher than here in Boston, at various times
during the winter. How can you not be alarmed at that?
And the ice cover thickness and extent scene is very bad.



Yes, but no one researches into previous massive melts such as around
900AD. There is Mendenhall Glacier in Alaska that is melting and
exposing a forest - which was in existence about 1000 years ago. How
long does it take to grow a forest?

Anybody growing sustainable timber knows that it take anything from about forty to a couple of hundred years, depending on the trees involved, the soil they are growing in and amount of water the trees can get at.

Does no one ask these questions?

https://www.livescience.com/39819-ancient-forest-thaws.html

Why should they bother? Local climate variations happen as the ocean currents move around. The Multidecadal Atlantic oscillation (discovered in 1993) explains that kind of local effect, and there may be even slower oscillations that we haven't noticed yet.

There were also favorable conditions on other side of the Atlantic,
especially in Scandinavia. This caused a strong population growth and
when the oldest son inherited the farms, younger sons had to seek
fortune from somewhere else. Thus vikings messed around the seas from
America to the Caspian Sea.

I wrote to the glaciologist (Ms Conner) a few years ago asking about the
forest and she said she only studies glaciers.

That's what the label says.

 

[Cursitor Doom]

On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 16:15:32 -0700, Rick C wrote:

Really? 11 billion tons of ice in one day is nothing unusual? What is
the typical number?

It hasn't been "lost" at all; just temporarily changed from solid to
liquid - and just as likely to change back again come winter. Sheesh!



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[Cursitor Doom]

On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 17:23:28 -0700, John Larkin wrote:

On Fri, 2 Aug 2019 17:05:06 -0700 (PDT), Phil Allison
pallison49@gmail.com> wrote:

John Larkin wrote:



At the current rate of sea level rise, my house will be flooded in
about 100,000 years.


** That tells me nothing about rising sea levels but quite a lot about
where John's house is. Mine is about 250 feet above sea level while his
may be thousands.

It might be best for you to panic now.

Moving house *now* might be a better plan!



--
This message may be freely reproduced without limit or charge only via
the Usenet protocol. Reproduction in whole or part through other
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GBP10.00 per reproduction. Publication in this manner via non-Usenet
protocols constitutes acceptance of this condition.

 

On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 08:56:12 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
<curd@notformail.com> wrote:

On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 16:15:32 -0700, Rick C wrote:

Really? 11 billion tons of ice in one day is nothing unusual? What is
the typical number?

It hasn't been "lost" at all; just temporarily changed from solid to
liquid - and just as likely to change back again come winter. Sheesh!

A related thing I have wondered bout.

With tree rings a new ring is added every year so it is easy (at least
with a microscope) to calculate the age of the tree or wooden
structure to an accuracy of one years. If tree ring data is available
from trees that have lived at different but overlapping periods, tree
ring data series have been reconstructed for up to about the last
10000 years with an accuracy of 1 year, thus much more accurate than
e.g. the C14 method.

One would think that glacial ice cores would be as accurate. If there
are no significant melting during summers this would be the case.

However, if the last few years have been cold and hence there are nice
ice core rings but then there is a warm summer, which say, melts 60 cm
of ice (as apparently in the current case), multiple years of previous
ice core data will be destroyed. If the molten water remains in an ice
lake, it will freeze again during the winter, fusing multiple years of
ice ring data into a single layer. Alternatively, if the melt water
escapes through crevasses to the ocean, ice data for several years
will be completely lost.

Admittedly, if the ice core contains contamination, e.g. ash from well
known vulcan eruptions, it might be possible to recreate timing
before that vulcan event. But if there are no such clear years with
external contamination ...

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 6:56:16 PM UTC+10, Cursitor Doom wrote:

On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 16:15:32 -0700, Rick C wrote:

Really? 11 billion tons of ice in one day is nothing unusual? What is
the typical number?

It hasn't been "lost" at all; just temporarily changed from solid to
liquid - and just as likely to change back again come winter. Sheesh!

Not all of it. Liquid water does run off, and the Greenland ice sheet is losing mass from year to year - the winter snowfall isn't making up for the water that runs off every summer.

https://gracefo.jpl.nasa.gov/resources/33/greenland-ice-loss-2002-2016/

The real worry is that the rivers of warm water that flow down through gaps in the ice sheet are eroding the ice sheet, and setting it up to slide off into the ocean in big chunks, which is how ice sheets end up raising sea levels quite rapidly as they disintegrate.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[whit3rd]

On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 5:29:19 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:

As we keep installing instruments, many of them badly sited and badly
maintained, of course we will keep setting records.

No, installation of instruments does not cause record heat.

No, 'badly sited' is not an important issue, unless you believe that
no discrimination between sites is implemented.

What on earth does 'badly maintained' mean? You can't collect coherent data
from nonworking stations, and incoherent data is routinely excluded from
calculations.

With more stations reporting, the averages are LESS noisy than with few reporting,
not more noisy. Learn statistical thinking, or provide some kind of argument
for 'setting records' that relates to reality in a rational premises-and-logic fashion.

 

[whit3rd]

On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 5:23:37 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:

On Fri, 2 Aug 2019 17:05:06 -0700 (PDT), Phil Allison
pallison49@gmail.com> wrote:

John Larkin Bullshit Artist wrote:



At the current rate of sea level rise, my house will be flooded in
about 100,000 years.


** That tells me nothing about rising sea levels but quite a lot about where John's house is. Mine is about 250 feet above sea level while his may be thousands.

It might be best for you to panic now.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

[whit3rd]

On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 3:30:12 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:

On Fri, 2 Aug 2019 21:52:21 +0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote in
news:qr49ke5bos0hdgb94222m8r3tp8dfdti9b@4ax.com:

I'm praying for an ice age.

So you can take a selfie?

So I can ski all year.

Prayer causea ice agea? Skepticism is appropriate.

 

[Gerhard Hoffmann]

Am 03.08.19 um 15:20 schrieb upsidedown@downunder.com:

So there are three North Poles, one at 90N, the magnetic pole
currently in Northern Canada (is it actually North or South pole
and the North Pole willage/town in Alaska .

No, there at least are 4 of them.

North Pole, the hotel in Muktinath, northern Nepal.
Probably the coldest of all of them. :-(

The name should have been a warning. No, no hot anything.

<
https://get.google.com/albumarchive/103357048842463945642/album/AF1QipMYBHQTwzbh2wCIPDXe5LVF6KqYaGG8NZWdYlAG/AF1QipOGdJRBqawz_uMEs1Tm9Zxu_laphsLcOlX6htbB

Cheers, Gerhard

 

On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 20:45:20 -0400, Martin Riddle
<martin_ridd@verizon.net> wrote:

On 2 Aug 2019 16:20:38 -0700, Winfield Hill <winfieldhill@yahoo.com
wrote:

Jeroen Belleman wrote...

On 2019-08-03 00:44, Martin Riddle wrote:

Well, it has gained over a trillion tons of ice in the last 2 years,
and of course they didnt mention it. Going for the shock factor I
guess

https://climatechangedispatch.com/greenland-gains-massive-amounts-of-ice-second-year-in-a-row/

I hate it when they do that. 11 billion tons is equivalent to
about 6mm of ice. Nothing spectacular to lose that much in one
summer day. But they have a point to make, haven't they?

Apparently it's been going on for 4 months (a very early
start, 6mm * 120 days is 0.7m) and now picking up steam.
But it looks like the alarm bells are coming from the
researchers, who are in a better place than the rest of
us to be alarmed or not.

My eyebrows went up when the temp at the north pole went
above 65F recently. This after the temps at the north
pole were higher than here in Boston, at various times
during the winter. How can you not be alarmed at that?
And the ice cover thickness and extent scene is very bad.

Are you sure that was the arctic North pole, and not North Pole Alaska
wher summer temps are on average of 65 in the summer?

So there are three North Poles, one at 90N, the magnetic pole
currently in Northern Canada (is it actually North or South pole
and the North Pole willage/town in Alaska .

 

On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 04:24:22 -0700 (PDT), Bill Sloman
<bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:

On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 6:56:16 PM UTC+10, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 16:15:32 -0700, Rick C wrote:

Really? 11 billion tons of ice in one day is nothing unusual? What is
the typical number?

It hasn't been "lost" at all; just temporarily changed from solid to
liquid - and just as likely to change back again come winter. Sheesh!

Not all of it. Liquid water does run off, and the Greenland ice sheet is losing mass from year to year - the winter snowfall isn't making up for the water that runs off every summer.

https://gracefo.jpl.nasa.gov/resources/33/greenland-ice-loss-2002-2016/

So 280 Gt is lost every year. With 11 Gt daily melting according to
the subject line, that is 25 days of melting i.e. less than a month.
The melting period was at least 4 months so at least 3/4 is restored
during winter.

A lot of ice was accumulated during the little ice age (LIA) which
is now melting away and apparently soon medieval warm period (MWP)
levels are reached. No need for panic.

>The real worry is that the rivers of warm water that flow down through gaps in the ice sheet are eroding the ice sheet, and setting it up to slide off into the ocean in big chunks, which is how ice sheets end up raising sea levels quite rapidly as they disintegrate.

 

[Martin Riddle]

On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 15:33:13 +0200, Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de>
wrote:

Am 03.08.19 um 15:20 schrieb upsidedown@downunder.com:

So there are three North Poles, one at 90N, the magnetic pole
currently in Northern Canada (is it actually North or South pole
and the North Pole willage/town in Alaska .

No, there at least are 4 of them.

North Pole, the hotel in Muktinath, northern Nepal.
Probably the coldest of all of them. :-(

The name should have been a warning. No, no hot anything.


https://get.google.com/albumarchive/103357048842463945642/album/AF1QipMYBHQTwzbh2wCIPDXe5LVF6KqYaGG8NZWdYlAG/AF1QipOGdJRBqawz_uMEs1Tm9Zxu_laphsLcOlX6htbB



Cheers, Gerhard

You left out Santa's Workshop...
<https://www.northpoleny.com/>


Cheers

 

Martin Riddle <martin_ridd@verizon.net> wrote in
news:435bke1vuu18vf9s3d55qhhstb7akng09r@4ax.com:

On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 15:33:13 +0200, Gerhard Hoffmann
dk4xp@arcor.de> wrote:

Am 03.08.19 um 15:20 schrieb upsidedown@downunder.com:

So there are three North Poles, one at 90N, the magnetic pole
currently in Northern Canada (is it actually North or South pole
and the North Pole willage/town in Alaska .

No, there at least are 4 of them.

North Pole, the hotel in Muktinath, northern Nepal.
Probably the coldest of all of them. :-(

The name should have been a warning. No, no hot anything.


https://get.google.com/albumarchive/103357048842463945642/album/AF1
QipMYBHQTwzbh2wCIPDXe5LVF6KqYaGG8NZWdYlAG/AF1QipOGdJRBqawz_uMEs1Tm9
Zxu_laphsLcOlX6htbB



Cheers, Gerhard

You left out Santa's Workshop...
https://www.northpoleny.com/


Cheers

You forgot Ollie's North Pole too! Been around 75 years.

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 11:09:51 PM UTC+10, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:

On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 04:24:22 -0700 (PDT), Bill Sloman
bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:

On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 6:56:16 PM UTC+10, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 16:15:32 -0700, Rick C wrote:

Really? 11 billion tons of ice in one day is nothing unusual? What is
the typical number?

It hasn't been "lost" at all; just temporarily changed from solid to
liquid - and just as likely to change back again come winter. Sheesh!

Not all of it. Liquid water does run off, and the Greenland ice sheet is losing mass from year to year - the winter snowfall isn't making up for the water that runs off every summer.

https://gracefo.jpl.nasa.gov/resources/33/greenland-ice-loss-2002-2016/

So 280 Gt is lost every year. With 11 Gt daily melting according to
the subject line, that is 25 days of melting i.e. less than a month.
The melting period was at least 4 months so at least 3/4 is restored
during winter.

A lot of ice was accumulated during the little ice age (LIA) which
is now melting away and apparently soon medieval warm period (MWP)
levels are reached. No need for panic.

The little ice age and the medieval warm period were essentially local events.

Anthropogenic global warming is world-wide, though the Arctic happens to be warming up faster than most places.

The problem is relatively long term, so there is no need to panic, but we'd be much wiser to tackle it now before it has a chance to proceed to panic-justifying dimensions.

> >The real worry is that the rivers of warm water that flow down through gaps in the ice sheet are eroding the ice sheet, and setting it up to slide off into the ocean in big chunks, which is how ice sheets end up raising sea levels quite rapidly as they disintegrate.

When that starts happening, it will be a bit late to panic. It doesn't look as if it going to happen all that soon, but all the interesting stuff is happening a mile or so of ice, so we don't know all that much about it.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

upsidedown@downunder.com wrote in
news:655bkepr4rc08rga2iffq8ttq836neaoas@4ax.com:

On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 15:30:04 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote:

On Fri, 2 Aug 2019 21:52:21 +0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote in
news:qr49ke5bos0hdgb94222m8r3tp8dfdti9b@4ax.com:

I'm praying for an ice age.

So you can take a selfie?

So I can ski all year.

skiing all year around is boring.

Why not ski in the winter and water skiing in the summer

I can barefoot water ski. The problem is logistics. I have not
gone water skiing in decades.

BOAT means "break out another thousand".

In the current development we finally get away with multiyear ice
from glaciers as well as from the Arctic Sea that has accumulated
during the LIA.

Hey I know! We should do like the ice worms do and dig tunnels
(ice amusement parks) in the galciers and have fun on icy water
slides!

At high latitudes there are going to be ice and snow only during
the winter and warm and comfortable during the summer.


Dig way down and the temp is the same all year.

I am surprised that Antarctic domains are not buried so as to be
out of the chilling winds.

 

On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 15:30:04 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote:

On Fri, 2 Aug 2019 21:52:21 +0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote in
news:qr49ke5bos0hdgb94222m8r3tp8dfdti9b@4ax.com:

I'm praying for an ice age.

So you can take a selfie?

So I can ski all year.

skiing all year around is boring.

Why not ski in the winter and water skiing in the summer

In the current development we finally get away with multiyear ice from
glaciers as well as from the Arctic Sea that has accumulated during
the LIA.

At high latitudes there are going to be ice and snow only during the
winter and warm and comfortable during the summer.

 

[Jeroen Belleman]

On 2019-08-03 13:16, whit3rd wrote:

On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 5:29:19 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:

As we keep installing instruments, many of them badly sited and badly
maintained, of course we will keep setting records.

No, installation of instruments does not cause record heat.

No, 'badly sited' is not an important issue, unless you believe that
no discrimination between sites is implemented.

What on earth does 'badly maintained' mean? You can't collect coherent data
from nonworking stations, and incoherent data is routinely excluded from
calculations.

With more stations reporting, the averages are LESS noisy than with few reporting,
not more noisy. Learn statistical thinking, or provide some kind of argument
for 'setting records' that relates to reality in a rational premises-and-logic fashion.

Well, there's the problem. Records aren't averages, they are spot
measurements. With more measurements, you're going to have more
extremes.

Jeroen Belleman

 

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 04:16:37 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 5:29:19 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:

As we keep installing instruments, many of them badly sited and badly
maintained, of course we will keep setting records.

No, installation of instruments does not cause record heat.

No, 'badly sited' is not an important issue, unless you believe that
no discrimination between sites is implemented.

What on earth does 'badly maintained' mean? You can't collect coherent data
from nonworking stations, and incoherent data is routinely excluded from
calculations.

With more stations reporting, the averages are LESS noisy than with few reporting,
not more noisy. Learn statistical thinking, or provide some kind of argument
for 'setting records' that relates to reality in a rational premises-and-logic fashion.

The alarmist newspapers report single-site peaks as "record"
temperatures.

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/05/03/big-news-verified-by-noaa-poor-weather-station-siting-leads-to-artificial-long-term-warming/

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2018/08/06/laughable-weather-station-maintenance-causes-highest-ever-temperature-record-in-spain/

And urbanization makes the averages go up, too.

Truckee use to often, in the summer, have the record low temp in the
lower 48. But there is a new weather station at Boca Reservoir, a few
miles away, and now it wins.

https://www.campsitephotos.com/photo/camp/95975/Boca_Weather_Station_-_Location_of_Californias_lowest_all_time_temperature_-45_F.jpg

Away from the trees, at that altitude at night, there's serious
radiation cooling. The Stevenson box is probably painted with latex
paint, basically black at thermal wavelengths. They are cheating.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boca,_California#Boca_Brewing_Company


More weather stations, all logging 24/7, generate more records.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 3:06:32 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/08/02/world/greenland-ice-sheet-11-billion-intl/index.html


--
Thanks,
- Win

Wadhams is projecting an ice free arctic by mid-September of this year based on an extrapolation of the current rate of decline and a bunch of other un-quantifiables that are seriously damaging and known to be happening:

Sea ice melting is accelerating for a number of reasons:

Ocean Heat - Much of the melting of the sea ice occurs from below and is caused by heat arriving in the Arctic Ocean from the Atlantic Ocean and the Pacific Ocean. The inflow of heat can increase strongly as winds increase in intensity. Storms can push huge amounts of hot, salty water into the Arctic Ocean.

Direct Sunlight - Hot air will melt the ice from above and this kind of melting can increase strongly due to changing wind patterns. Numerous feedbacks will further speed up melting, such as that heating will change the texture of the sea ice at the top and that melt pools will appear, both of which will cause darkening of the surface.

Rivers - Heatwaves over land can extend over the Arctic Ocean and they also heat up river water flowing into the Arctic Ocean.

Fires - Changing wind patterns can also increase the intensity and duration of such heatwaves that can also come with fires resulting in huge amounts of greenhouse gas emissions, thus further speeding up the temperature rise, and also resulting in huge emissions of soot that, when settling on sea ice, speeds up melting.

The Earth is well on its way to an 8oC temperature rise shortly.

 

On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 3:50:12 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

On 2 Aug 2019 12:06:18 -0700, Winfield Hill <winfieldhill@yahoo.com
wrote:

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/08/02/world/greenland-ice-sheet-11-billion-intl/index.html

At the current rate of sea level rise, my house will be flooded in
about 100,000 years. I'm praying for an ice age.

It's not about sea level rise.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com