Giant scrolling text in 1945??

[Pimpom]

On 4/21/2020 11:18 PM, George Herold wrote:

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 11:45:09 AM UTC-4, Pimpom wrote:
On 4/21/2020 8:43 PM, bitrex wrote:
On 4/21/2020 9:46 AM, Pimpom wrote:
On 4/21/2020 6:26 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
tirsdag den 21. april 2020 kl. 14.23.22 UTC+2 skrev Pimpom:
I saw this on TV twice, possibly on Discovery channel. A crowd
was celebrating the end of WWII in the street and the reason for
jubilation was displayed in giant scrolling text on the side of a
building. Certain factors prevented me from discerning the type
of display used - 1) the part showing the display was brief, 2)
it was an old B&W film, 3) delayed reaction on my part both times.

I've searched for it from time to time without success. It's
unlikely that the technology for a scrolling electronic display
existed then. So what was it? A banner?

BTW I love the photo of a sailor kissing a girl that day. I think
it's one of the great photos of all time.

as a far as I know the worlds first scrolling electronic sign was
invented
by the danish engineer and inventor Viggo Jensen and put into operation
in 1914, it was controlled using paper tape and mercury

this is from 1939
https://www.danskkulturarv.dk/dr/bt-centralen-og-politikens-hus-lysavis/


Ah, so the technology did exist then. Thanks. I still wish I could find
that particular clip, though.

Check this out, this is some high-quality _color_ film footage from NYC
in the mid-late 1930s!

https://youtu.be/ZpXnEvW0XD0?t=1231

Look at all this animated signage. State-of-the-art hi-tech stuff at the
time.


Amazing. Running lights and switched signs are one thing, running
text requires another level of ingenuity IMO.

No... we had movies. One frame at a time. We had blinking lights...
it's not to hard to imagine moving blinking lights.

Sorry, I still say it's not just moving and blinking lights. It's
a matrix of light points (pixels) that light up individually in a
programmable combination and sequence without the benefit of
digital processing. This is different from showing a series of
still images. It would be easier if the scrolled text was a
permanent one meant to run unchanged for years, but it apparently
could be reprogrammed without too much hassle.

How they did it might be interesting.

See? It's not that obvious even now, is it?

 

[George Herold]

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 12:46:26 PM UTC-4, Adrian Tuddenham wrote:

Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

tirsdag den 21. april 2020 kl. 14.23.22 UTC+2 skrev Pimpom:
I saw this on TV twice, possibly on Discovery channel. A crowd
was celebrating the end of WWII in the street and the reason for
jubilation was displayed in giant scrolling text on the side of a
building. Certain factors prevented me from discerning the type
of display used - 1) the part showing the display was brief, 2)
it was an old B&W film, 3) delayed reaction on my part both times.

I've searched for it from time to time without success. It's
unlikely that the technology for a scrolling electronic display
existed then. So what was it? A banner?

BTW I love the photo of a sailor kissing a girl that day. I think
it's one of the great photos of all time.

as a far as I know the worlds first scrolling electronic sign was invented
by the danish engineer and inventor Viggo Jensen and put into operation
in 1914, it was controlled using paper tape and mercury

this is from 1939
https://www.danskkulturarv.dk/dr/bt-centralen-og-politikens-hus-lysavis/

I can confirm that the sign over the Hippodrome theatre in Bristol used
the paper and mercury system well into the 1970. I am related to the
daughter of the man who used to operate it - he died of mercury
poisoning many years ago.

The system comprised a long strip of paper with the required text
punched as a series of holes, it was dragged along a flat-bottomed
trough by being unwound from a free roller and wound up by a powered
roller at the opposite end. It was arranged to droop between the two
rollers and a puddle of mercury sat on top of the dip.

The surface tension of the mercury prevented it from falling through the
holes, but it formed a meniscus projecting below the bottom of the
paper. These projecting globules made contact with studs let into the
insulated bottom of the trough in a pattern corresponding with the lamps
on the display board outside.

I understand that 240v mains was used to power the lamps, because their
filaments had to be thin with little thermal inertia to prevent smearing
of the message. This resulted in constant sparking, which filled the
air in the machine room with mercury vapour.

Lamps frquently needed replacement and this was done by the operator
from a catwalk along the front of the building, high safety rails would
have been visually unattractive, so the were omitted.

--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

Huh. Thanks! So on the opposite side of this mercury, paper tape
nightmare, were wires going to each of the bulbs?

George H.

 

[George Herold]

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 11:45:09 AM UTC-4, Pimpom wrote:

On 4/21/2020 8:43 PM, bitrex wrote:
On 4/21/2020 9:46 AM, Pimpom wrote:
On 4/21/2020 6:26 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
tirsdag den 21. april 2020 kl. 14.23.22 UTC+2 skrev Pimpom:
I saw this on TV twice, possibly on Discovery channel. A crowd
was celebrating the end of WWII in the street and the reason for
jubilation was displayed in giant scrolling text on the side of a
building. Certain factors prevented me from discerning the type
of display used - 1) the part showing the display was brief, 2)
it was an old B&W film, 3) delayed reaction on my part both times.

I've searched for it from time to time without success. It's
unlikely that the technology for a scrolling electronic display
existed then. So what was it? A banner?

BTW I love the photo of a sailor kissing a girl that day. I think
it's one of the great photos of all time.

as a far as I know the worlds first scrolling electronic sign was
invented
by the danish engineer and inventor Viggo Jensen and put into operation
in 1914, it was controlled using paper tape and mercury

this is from 1939
https://www.danskkulturarv.dk/dr/bt-centralen-og-politikens-hus-lysavis/


Ah, so the technology did exist then. Thanks. I still wish I could find
that particular clip, though.

Check this out, this is some high-quality _color_ film footage from NYC
in the mid-late 1930s!

https://youtu.be/ZpXnEvW0XD0?t=1231

Look at all this animated signage. State-of-the-art hi-tech stuff at the
time.


Amazing. Running lights and switched signs are one thing, running
text requires another level of ingenuity IMO.

No... we had movies. One frame at a time. We had blinking lights...
it's not to hard to imagine moving blinking lights.
How they did it might be interesting.

George H.

 

[George Herold]

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 11:59:17 AM UTC-4, Arie de Muynck wrote:

On 2020-04-21 17:44, Pimpom wrote:
On 4/21/2020 8:43 PM, bitrex wrote:
On 4/21/2020 9:46 AM, Pimpom wrote:
On 4/21/2020 6:26 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
tirsdag den 21. april 2020 kl. 14.23.22 UTC+2 skrev Pimpom:
I saw this on TV twice, possibly on Discovery channel. A crowd
was celebrating the end of WWII in the street and the reason for
jubilation was displayed in giant scrolling text on the side of a
building. Certain factors prevented me from discerning the type
of display used - 1) the part showing the display was brief, 2)
it was an old B&W film, 3) delayed reaction on my part both times.

I've searched for it from time to time without success. It's
unlikely that the technology for a scrolling electronic display
existed then. So what was it? A banner?

BTW I love the photo of a sailor kissing a girl that day. I think
it's one of the great photos of all time.

as a far as I know the worlds first scrolling electronic sign was
invented
by the danish engineer and inventor Viggo Jensen and put into operation
in 1914, it was controlled using paper tape and mercury

this is from 1939
https://www.danskkulturarv.dk/dr/bt-centralen-og-politikens-hus-lysavis/



Ah, so the technology did exist then. Thanks. I still wish I could find
that particular clip, though.

Check this out, this is some high-quality _color_ film footage from NYC
in the mid-late 1930s!

https://youtu.be/ZpXnEvW0XD0?t=1231

Look at all this animated signage. State-of-the-art hi-tech stuff at the
time.


Amazing. Running lights and switched signs are one thing, running text
requires another level of ingenuity IMO.

https://historum.com/threads/new-york-city-scrolling-sign.48795/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/News_ticker#Building_news_tickers
--
Building news tickers
Since the advent of the telegraph, newspapers commonly used their
buildings to share the latest headlines.[4] At first simple chalkboard
signs were used for bulletins, but limelight illumination, electric
lights, magic lantern projections, and other novel techniques were later
employed.[4] The method of using electric lights to spell out moving
letters was invented by Frank C. Reilly (August 20, 1888 – April 10,
1947) and patented in 1923.[5][6] Reilly called his invention the Motograph.

PATENT is here:
https://pdfpiw.uspto.gov/.piw?PageNum=0&docid=01451112&IDKey=929FB4D5674B&HomeUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fpatft.uspto.gov%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fpatimg.htm

and just as I expected, a 'paper' tape system with contacts.


Another sign-maker that was famous for it:

https://www.aaa.si.edu/collections/douglas-leigh-papers-6306
Search for "Douglas Leigh's automated electric news sign"

He died in 1999:

https://www.nytimes.com/1998/10/25/realestate/streetscapes-douglas-leigh-sign-maker-the-man-behind-times-square-s-smoke-rings.html

Wow! thanks for all that.
George h.

 

[Adrian Tuddenham]

George Herold <ggherold@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 12:46:26 PM UTC-4, Adrian Tuddenham wrote:
Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

tirsdag den 21. april 2020 kl. 14.23.22 UTC+2 skrev Pimpom:
I saw this on TV twice, possibly on Discovery channel. A crowd
was celebrating the end of WWII in the street and the reason for
jubilation was displayed in giant scrolling text on the side of a
building. Certain factors prevented me from discerning the type
of display used - 1) the part showing the display was brief, 2)
it was an old B&W film, 3) delayed reaction on my part both times.

I've searched for it from time to time without success. It's
unlikely that the technology for a scrolling electronic display
existed then. So what was it? A banner?

BTW I love the photo of a sailor kissing a girl that day. I think
it's one of the great photos of all time.

as a far as I know the worlds first scrolling electronic sign was invented
by the danish engineer and inventor Viggo Jensen and put into operation
in 1914, it was controlled using paper tape and mercury

this is from 1939
https://www.danskkulturarv.dk/dr/bt-centralen-og-politikens-hus-lysavis/

I can confirm that the sign over the Hippodrome theatre in Bristol used
the paper and mercury system well into the 1970. I am related to the
daughter of the man who used to operate it - he died of mercury
poisoning many years ago.

The system comprised a long strip of paper with the required text
punched as a series of holes, it was dragged along a flat-bottomed
trough by being unwound from a free roller and wound up by a powered
roller at the opposite end. It was arranged to droop between the two
rollers and a puddle of mercury sat on top of the dip.

The surface tension of the mercury prevented it from falling through the
holes, but it formed a meniscus projecting below the bottom of the
paper. These projecting globules made contact with studs let into the
insulated bottom of the trough in a pattern corresponding with the lamps
on the display board outside.

I understand that 240v mains was used to power the lamps, because their
filaments had to be thin with little thermal inertia to prevent smearing
of the message. This resulted in constant sparking, which filled the
air in the machine room with mercury vapour.

Lamps frquently needed replacement and this was done by the operator
from a catwalk along the front of the building, high safety rails would
have been visually unattractive, so the were omitted.

--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

Huh. Thanks! So on the opposite side of this mercury, paper tape
nightmare, were wires going to each of the bulbs?

As far as I know, there was one contact and one wire per bulb. The
intereference it cause with radios in the area was horrendous.


--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 2020-04-21 08:23, Pimpom wrote:

I saw this on TV twice, possibly on Discovery channel. A crowd was
celebrating the end of WWII in the street and the reason for jubilation
was displayed in giant scrolling text on the side of a building. Certain
factors prevented me from discerning the type of display used - 1) the
part showing the display was brief, 2) it was an old B&W film, 3)
delayed reaction on my part both times.

I've searched for it from time to time without success. It's unlikely
that the technology for a scrolling electronic display existed then. So
what was it? A banner?

BTW I love the photo of a sailor kissing a girl that day. I think it's
one of the great photos of all time.

I read an interview with her some years ago--she said she'd never seen
him before or since. He might well have got into deep trouble in 2020.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Bill Martin]

On 4/21/20 12:42 PM, Phil Hobbs wrote:

On 2020-04-21 08:23, Pimpom wrote:
I saw this on TV twice, possibly on Discovery channel. A crowd was
celebrating the end of WWII in the street and the reason for
jubilation was displayed in giant scrolling text on the side of a
building. Certain factors prevented me from discerning the type of
display used - 1) the part showing the display was brief, 2) it was an
old B&W film, 3) delayed reaction on my part both times.

I've searched for it from time to time without success. It's unlikely
that the technology for a scrolling electronic display existed then.
So what was it? A banner?

BTW I love the photo of a sailor kissing a girl that day. I think it's
one of the great photos of all time.

I read an interview with her some years ago--she said she'd never seen
him before or since.  He might well have got into deep trouble in 2020.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Nah, the statue commemorating the encounter is still on display in San
Diego, right on the waterfront. Near the navy piers...
-bill m

 

[Grant Taylor]

On 4/21/20 11:36 AM, Pimpom wrote:

Not just a lot more lights. A lot more processing too. Running lights -
the kind you see on those signs - need only three sets of lamps lit in
sequence. Text needs a more complex operation.

Either I don't understand, or I disagree.

Here's a crude representation of a capital A from VGA:

x
xxx
xx xx
xx xx
xx xx
xxxxxxx
xx xx
xx xx
xx xx
xx xx

Here's the same character triple wide:

xxx
xxxxxxxxx
xxxxxx xxxxxx
xxxxxx xxxxxx
xxxxxx xxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxx xxxxxx
xxxxxx xxxxxx
xxxxxx xxxxxx
xxxxxx xxxxxx

To me, this means that each column and row intersection can represent a
bulb. The bulb is either on or it's off. There is no need to worry
about adjacent bulb. The hole pattern on the tape deals with this.

You must be thinking in terms of modern technology that has evolved,
been refined and passed on for decades. The people who developed those
displays must have had to invent them from scratch.

Nope. I'm thinking that if a hole is punched, the light is on. If the
hole is not punched the light is off.

Move the tape along through the array of sensors, and the lights will
change as the hols move.

Think how much processing a DMP needs to control each pin according to
the input.

I don't see /any/ processing in the method that I'm talking about using.



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

 

[Grant Taylor]

On 4/21/20 12:24 PM, Pimpom wrote:
> Sorry, I still say it's not just moving and blinking lights.

Why can't it be just moving and blinking lights?

Why does the glyph that's displayed matter if it's an "A" or a "+"?
Both of them are a matrix of pixels (lights) that are either on or off
in a predefined pattern.

It's a matrix of light points (pixels) that light up individually in
a programmable combination and sequence without the benefit of digital
processing.

Digital isn't needed. Only pure basic DC (or the AC counterpart there
of) circuits is needed. Is the switch open or closed resulting in the
light being off or on (respectively). There's just a bunch of said
switches.

In my first example (copied below), the letter A is 7 pixels wide by 10
pixels tall, thus resulting in 70 pixels.

1234567
x
xxx
xx xx
xx xx
xx xx
xxxxxxx
xx xx
xx xx
xx xx
xx xx
1234567

If you have a sign that's 10 bulbs (pixels) high and 100 bulbs (pixels)
long, you have 1,000 discrete bulbs to control. This can be done with
something as simple as paper tape either allowing conduction through the
hols or not when they are blocked.

As the tape above is drawn through the ""reader, column 1 is turned on
for the right most column.

Delay for a brief period of time.

Pull the tape one more pixel through the reader, column 1 is turned on
for the 2nd from the right column and column 2 is turned on for the
right most column.

Delay for a brief period of time.

Pull the tape one more pixel through the reader....

Delay....

Repeat this process 107 times and the letter A will scroll across the
entire display.

Notice how the only ""processing is a simple binary switch that either
turns the light on, or doesn't. Holes in a paper tape can easily do that.

This is different from showing a series of still images. It would
be easier if the scrolled text was a permanent one meant to run
unchanged for years, but it apparently could be reprogrammed without
too much hassle.

I think pulling a tape through would actually be easier than changing
between still images.

Changing out the old paper tape for a new one with a new set of images
would be about as easy as changing out the film being projected at the
movies.

Obviously the tapes used would have considerably more than one letter on
them. But that's the beauty. The tape is simply a series of holes
punched in the shape of the desired letters / glyphs / symbols / etc.
It is literally a sequence of pixels that are displayed. The tape could
be as long as you want, probably with a minimum length. Some of that
minimum could be blank, all lights off.

> See? It's not that obvious even now, is it?

I believe the bulk of it is.



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

 

[bitrex]

On 4/21/2020 3:42 PM, Phil Hobbs wrote:

On 2020-04-21 08:23, Pimpom wrote:
I saw this on TV twice, possibly on Discovery channel. A crowd was
celebrating the end of WWII in the street and the reason for
jubilation was displayed in giant scrolling text on the side of a
building. Certain factors prevented me from discerning the type of
display used - 1) the part showing the display was brief, 2) it was an
old B&W film, 3) delayed reaction on my part both times.

I've searched for it from time to time without success. It's unlikely
that the technology for a scrolling electronic display existed then.
So what was it? A banner?

BTW I love the photo of a sailor kissing a girl that day. I think it's
one of the great photos of all time.

I read an interview with her some years ago--she said she'd never seen
him before or since.  He might well have got into deep trouble in 2020.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Most of the time you can't just go around grabbing broads.

 

[Pimpom]

On 4/22/2020 7:03 AM, Grant Taylor wrote:

On 4/21/20 12:24 PM, Pimpom wrote:
Sorry, I still say it's not just moving and blinking lights.

Why can't it be just moving and blinking lights?

Why does the glyph that's displayed matter if it's an "A" or a "+"?
Both of them are a matrix of pixels (lights) that are either on or off
in a predefined pattern.

It's a matrix of light points (pixels) that light up individually in
a programmable combination and sequence without the benefit of digital
processing.

Digital isn't needed. Only pure basic DC (or the AC counterpart there
of) circuits is needed. Is the switch open or closed resulting in the
light being off or on (respectively). There's just a bunch of said
switches.

In my first example (copied below), the letter A is 7 pixels wide by 10
pixels tall, thus resulting in 70 pixels.

1234567
x
xxx
xx xx
xx xx
xx xx
xxxxxxx
xx xx
xx xx
xx xx
xx xx
1234567

If you have a sign that's 10 bulbs (pixels) high and 100 bulbs (pixels)
long, you have 1,000 discrete bulbs to control. This can be done with
something as simple as paper tape either allowing conduction through the
hols or not when they are blocked.

As the tape above is drawn through the ""reader, column 1 is turned on
for the right most column.

Delay for a brief period of time.

Pull the tape one more pixel through the reader, column 1 is turned on
for the 2nd from the right column and column 2 is turned on for the
right most column.

Delay for a brief period of time.

Pull the tape one more pixel through the reader....

Delay....

Repeat this process 107 times and the letter A will scroll across the
entire display.

Notice how the only ""processing is a simple binary switch that either
turns the light on, or doesn't. Holes in a paper tape can easily do that.

This is different from showing a series of still images. It would
be easier if the scrolled text was a permanent one meant to run
unchanged for years, but it apparently could be reprogrammed without
too much hassle.

I think pulling a tape through would actually be easier than changing
between still images.

Changing out the old paper tape for a new one with a new set of images
would be about as easy as changing out the film being projected at the
movies.

Obviously the tapes used would have considerably more than one letter on
them. But that's the beauty. The tape is simply a series of holes
punched in the shape of the desired letters / glyphs / symbols / etc.
It is literally a sequence of pixels that are displayed. The tape could
be as long as you want, probably with a minimum length. Some of that
minimum could be blank, all lights off.

You're still not getting my point. I'm not saying that it would
be cutting edge *now*. With today's technology as a background,
many high school kids could come up with the idea. As could many
uneducated people with a creative mind. But 80+ years ago? The
principles behind Edison's inventions are obvious now, but not in
his time. *That's* my point.

See? It's not that obvious even now, is it?

I believe the bulk of it is.

Come on, you're taking this out of context. That was a gentle
ribbing in response to George's comment "How they did it might be
interesting". See the smiley?

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 2020-04-22 11:07, Grant Taylor wrote:

On 4/22/20 1:04 AM, Pimpom wrote:
You're still not getting my point. I'm not saying that it would be
cutting edge *now*. With today's technology as a background, many high
school kids could come up with the idea. As could many uneducated
people with a creative mind. But 80+ years ago? The principles behind
Edison's inventions are obvious now, but not in his time. *That's* my
point.

You stated "without the benefit of digital processing".  I'm saying that
no processing is needed.

What I'm describing is an application of electric switches to the idea
behind the Jacquard loom, which dates back to the early 1800s.  So sure,
the application of the idea to control lights was new in the early
1900s.  But a simple switch, or many of them, combined with (then) 100
year old technology, is not a stretch of the imagination.  It certainly
is not any form of processing or computation or manipulation of
anything.  It is simply a bunch of independent simple yes (on) / no
(off) decisions.  There is a direct one to one relationship between the
holes in the tape and the lights on the display.

Come on, you're taking this out of context. That was a gentle ribbing
in response to George's comment "How they did it might be
interesting". See the smiley?

There is no context around your stand alone statement, "See? It's not
that obvious even now, is it? " for it to be taken out of.  You
effectively said "It's not that obvious even now how the ticker signs
worked."  A statement that I, and I believe others in this thread,
disagree with.  I believe it is relatively obvious how the signs worked.
 At least one way that they could have worked.

George's statement that you replied to expressed interest in learning
more about how it was done.  Interest in something does not imply lack
of knowledge about it currently.

Hollerith's electromechanical tabulating machines were used for the 1890
US census. The 1896 version could add. The idea of using something
like that to run blinkenlights was novel enough to patent 20 years
later, but it isn't like it sprang forth from Zeus's brow.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Grant Taylor]

On 4/22/20 1:04 AM, Pimpom wrote:

You're still not getting my point. I'm not saying that it would be
cutting edge *now*. With today's technology as a background, many high
school kids could come up with the idea. As could many uneducated people
with a creative mind. But 80+ years ago? The principles behind Edison's
inventions are obvious now, but not in his time. *That's* my point.

You stated "without the benefit of digital processing". I'm saying that
no processing is needed.

What I'm describing is an application of electric switches to the idea
behind the Jacquard loom, which dates back to the early 1800s. So sure,
the application of the idea to control lights was new in the early
1900s. But a simple switch, or many of them, combined with (then) 100
year old technology, is not a stretch of the imagination. It certainly
is not any form of processing or computation or manipulation of
anything. It is simply a bunch of independent simple yes (on) / no
(off) decisions. There is a direct one to one relationship between the
holes in the tape and the lights on the display.

Come on, you're taking this out of context. That was a gentle ribbing in
response to George's comment "How they did it might be interesting". See
the smiley?

There is no context around your stand alone statement, "See? It's not
that obvious even now, is it? " for it to be taken out of. You
effectively said "It's not that obvious even now how the ticker signs
worked." A statement that I, and I believe others in this thread,
disagree with. I believe it is relatively obvious how the signs worked.
At least one way that they could have worked.

George's statement that you replied to expressed interest in learning
more about how it was done. Interest in something does not imply lack
of knowledge about it currently.



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

 

[Pimpom]

On 4/22/2020 8:37 PM, Grant Taylor wrote:

On 4/22/20 1:04 AM, Pimpom wrote:
You're still not getting my point. I'm not saying that it would be
cutting edge *now*. With today's technology as a background, many high
school kids could come up with the idea. As could many uneducated people
with a creative mind. But 80+ years ago? The principles behind Edison's
inventions are obvious now, but not in his time. *That's* my point.

You stated "without the benefit of digital processing". I'm saying that
no processing is needed.

What I'm describing is an application of electric switches to the idea
behind the Jacquard loom, which dates back to the early 1800s. So sure,
the application of the idea to control lights was new in the early
1900s. But a simple switch, or many of them, combined with (then) 100
year old technology, is not a stretch of the imagination. It certainly
is not any form of processing or computation or manipulation of
anything. It is simply a bunch of independent simple yes (on) / no
(off) decisions. There is a direct one to one relationship between the
holes in the tape and the lights on the display.

What you just described is basically what digital processing is
about - complex combinations of yes/no, one/zero, on/off. Yes,
the electrical switch was not new then, but could the average
person with no prior knowledge except how an electric switch
works have thought up their applications like the Jacquard loom,
scrolling text or other complex applications? Coming up with
ideas that most other intelligent persons would not have is what
makes the idea innovative.

Come on, you're taking this out of context. That was a gentle ribbing in
response to George's comment "How they did it might be interesting". See
the smiley?

There is no context around your stand alone statement, "See? It's not
that obvious even now, is it? " for it to be taken out of. You
effectively said "It's not that obvious even now how the ticker signs
worked." A statement that I, and I believe others in this thread,
disagree with.
I believe it is relatively obvious how the signs worked.
At least one way that they could have worked.

George's statement that you replied to expressed interest in learning
more about how it was done. Interest in something does not imply lack
of knowledge about it currently.

Being interested in learning how people do something indicates
that there are at least some things one does not know about it.
How else do you interpret it? I never said that George didn't
understand the principles.

 

[Grant Taylor]

On 4/22/20 9:18 AM, Phil Hobbs wrote:

The idea of using something like that to run blinkenlights was novel
enough to patent 20 years later, but it isn't like it sprang forth
from Zeus's brow.

The claw hammer was patented (in the USA) in the early 1900s, yet it was
invented 50+ years prior.

When something is patented is not a good judge of how novel it is / was.



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

 

[Grant Taylor]

On 4/22/20 10:16 AM, Pimpom wrote:

What you just described is basically what digital processing is about -
complex combinations of yes/no, one/zero, on/off.

I disagree. I believe that processing requires more than turning
something on or off. Sure, digital processing works by doing exactly
that. But digital processing is so much more than that.

Processing in this context would be taking a relatively simple code from
a then common stock ticker tape and translating each code to the pattern
of lights needed to be turned on to represent that code. Expound that
for many additional codes / letters. Then expound that even further by
moving that derived pattern through each of the steps of the display.
That would be (digital) processing. (I suspect it's possible to do it
mechanically too, but extremely mechanically complex.)

Compare that type of processing to pulling a paper tape through a series
of electrical contacts / switches.

I expect that FAR MANY MORE people could understand pulling the tape
through switches compared to understanding the mechanics involved to
decode a character on a ticker tape to letters on a sign.

Yes, the electrical switch was not new then, but could the average
person with no prior knowledge except how an electric switch works have
thought up their applications like the Jacquard loom, scrolling text
or other complex applications? Coming up with ideas that most other
intelligent persons would not have is what makes the idea innovative.

Could someone that understood the basic concept of a switch and a
Jacquard loom deduce the concept of controlling the switch with a loom
~> paper tape? Quite likely. The devil is going to be in the details
of how it is done.

Most high school students that have passed basic physics can explain
that an internal combustion engine is a controlled explosion directing
the force and converting it into rotational motion which is transferred
to the wheels. The nuances of how that is done is much more
problematic. Yet there are still many high school students that can do it.



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 2020-04-22 18:50, Grant Taylor wrote:

On 4/22/20 9:18 AM, Phil Hobbs wrote:
The idea of using something like that to run blinkenlights was novel
enough to patent 20 years later, but it isn't like it sprang forth
from Zeus's brow.

The claw hammer was patented (in the USA) in the early 1900s, yet it was
invented 50+ years prior.

When something is patented is not a good judge of how novel it is / was.

That's not so. There are certainly poor patents granted, but uninformed
blanket cynicism is baseless.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

(Who holds 44 US patents and has served as an expert witness in 24
patent and trade secret cases in district court and the International
Trade Comission, working with both plaintiffs and defendants.)


--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 19:31:07 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-04-22 18:50, Grant Taylor wrote:
On 4/22/20 9:18 AM, Phil Hobbs wrote:
The idea of using something like that to run blinkenlights was novel
enough to patent 20 years later, but it isn't like it sprang forth
from Zeus's brow.

The claw hammer was patented (in the USA) in the early 1900s, yet it was
invented 50+ years prior.

When something is patented is not a good judge of how novel it is / was.

That's not so. There are certainly poor patents granted, but uninformed
blanket cynicism is baseless.

How many patents have been granted for perpetual motion machines
during the last century.?

The USPATO doesn't seem to make much prior art checks and just grants
patents. To invalidate a questionable patent (e.g. claiming prior art)
one has take the case into court at own expense.

 

On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 11:18:18 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-04-22 11:07, Grant Taylor wrote:
On 4/22/20 1:04 AM, Pimpom wrote:
You're still not getting my point. I'm not saying that it would be
cutting edge *now*. With today's technology as a background, many high
school kids could come up with the idea. As could many uneducated
people with a creative mind. But 80+ years ago? The principles behind
Edison's inventions are obvious now, but not in his time. *That's* my
point.

You stated "without the benefit of digital processing".  I'm saying that
no processing is needed.

What I'm describing is an application of electric switches to the idea
behind the Jacquard loom, which dates back to the early 1800s.  So sure,
the application of the idea to control lights was new in the early
1900s.  But a simple switch, or many of them, combined with (then) 100
year old technology, is not a stretch of the imagination.  It certainly
is not any form of processing or computation or manipulation of
anything.  It is simply a bunch of independent simple yes (on) / no
(off) decisions.  There is a direct one to one relationship between the
holes in the tape and the lights on the display.

Come on, you're taking this out of context. That was a gentle ribbing
in response to George's comment "How they did it might be
interesting". See the smiley?

There is no context around your stand alone statement, "See? It's not
that obvious even now, is it? " for it to be taken out of.  You
effectively said "It's not that obvious even now how the ticker signs
worked."  A statement that I, and I believe others in this thread,
disagree with.  I believe it is relatively obvious how the signs worked.
 At least one way that they could have worked.

George's statement that you replied to expressed interest in learning
more about how it was done.  Interest in something does not imply lack
of knowledge about it currently.

Hollerith's electromechanical tabulating machines were used for the 1890
US census. The 1896 version could add. The idea of using something
like that to run blinkenlights was novel enough to patent 20 years
later, but it isn't like it sprang forth from Zeus's brow.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

It led to a couple of generations of amazingly klunky BCD computers at
IBM.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard

 

How many patents have been granted for perpetual motion machines
during the last century.?

I know of none. Do you have an example?

Anyway there's no need for an invention to work to be patentable. Patent law is based on a quid pro quo: teach your invention to the world, and you get the exclusive right to practice it for 20 years.

If it doesn't work, then nobody could practice it at all anyway, so no harm, no foul.

The PTO has its problems, but that's not one of them.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs