GFCI Failures + Gadgets

Nov 17, 2003

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 15:44:40 -0700, Jim Thompson
<invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

Went outside to add another electrical circuit at the BBQ and
discovered that all of my nice wire-tagging had faded to non-readable.

So I couldn't figure out which common went with which hot.

Then it dawned on me to simply trip the GFCIs which releases *both*
hots and commons so a simple ohm-meter check would do the trick.

NOT! Both GFCIs wouldn't trip when I pressed the test buttons :-(

Went to Radio Shack and bought a Receptacle/GFCI tester for $5.99.

At the same time I noticed a gadget to locate breakers... bought it
also ($29.95).

Went home and tested the GFCIs... both have failed :-( Tester was
verified on some indoor GFCIs... it would trip them.

Both bad units are outdoors, so maybe it was the heat (they both face
the western sun... it gets over 120°F here . Any other ideas about
why they fail?

The breaker locator is neat... plug a sender unit into an outlet, then
scan the breakers... works like a champ.

...Jim Thompson

That is why the electric company should install a GFCI up on the pole
at the transformer. That way, everyone and everything is protected in
the whole neighborhood.

buck rojerz · Nov 17, 2003

"Jeff" <levy_jeff@hotmail.com> wrote in news:2yZtb.26920$R13.818487@ursa-
nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca:

"JeffM" <jeffm_@email.com> wrote in message
news:f8b945bc.0311161109.1ba005f3@posting.google.com...
Most GFI's trip at a 5 mA
Jeff

That sounded too high, so I googled for confirmation. You're right.

When I worked in the hospital,
I remember the Electrical Safety Officer coming around with his cart
and checking every 110Vac gizmo. His spec was 15uA.

Whoa! 15uA - Some insulation will collectively leak that at 120V AC
especially on a humid day, and then there's stray capacitance leaking
to
ground!

(You would marvel at this collection of cut-off molded 110V plugs.)

The 15ua spec is the limitation of leakage current to the patient, from
any piece of equipment. Not any sort of limitation for the GFCI device
itself. The spec at our hospital was 15 ua., but I think the spec was 10
ua in ICU & Surgery. The specs between the leakage current safety for
the patient and the amount of current necessary to trip a GFCI are
basically unrelated. The two were both safety factors but for two
different reasons. Even when an electrical device was grounded, there
could still be minute leakage currents, that could reach the patient.
These leakage currents had to be limited to below 10 or 15 microamps
because patients often had devices that made more intimate contact, with
the inside of the body. The skin does offer some resistance, however
even a range of microamps, could be fatal if connected internally.

I was a Biomedical Engineer/Safety engineer at a hospital for three
years. I had to test EVERY outlet and service almost every piece of
electrical/medical equipment in the hospital. The adjustable GFCI tester
I used was calibrated in ma and 99% on the GFCIs would trip as the knob
reached 3ma. They were click settings as opposed to a pot.

The first part of the input of the sensor for the GFCI was a toroid
transformer with three windings. The first two (I will call the main)
windings were wound as current opposing, around the toroid. Such that if
the two main windings(Hot & Neutral Lines) had the exact same amount of
current passing through them, they would cancel each other and no output
would be present at the third winding. The third winding was connected
to the differential inputs of an op-amp. If there was any imbalance of
current between the hot and neutral lines, the imbalance would negate the
cancellation and a current would be induced in the third winding of the
toroid, biasing the op-amp and in turn triggering the relay to break the
power circuit. The imbalance would be indicative of current taking an
inappropriate path to earth, through a path other than the neutral line
of that same outlet.

The statement that no safety ground line is required for the GFCI to
operate the way it was meant to, is true. However the test button would
not operate, because the test button put a resistor from the hot line, to
the safety ground line as a test, to cause the imbalance in the hot and
neutral lines. Even if no safety ground line was connected to the given
outlet, any amount of leakage above 2 or 3 ma, to another path to earth,
such as a waterpipe, would be measured, as an imbalance in the toroid
transformer, flip the output of the op-amp and in turn, trip the relay.
A safety ground is not necessary for a GFCI to operate normally, but of
course it would be stupid not to have a safety ground in any event.

buck

(this post was read in alt.binaries.schematics.electronics)

Ian Stirling · Nov 17, 2003

In sci.electronics.design Fred Abse <excretatauris@cerebrumconfus.it> wrote:

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 20:18:15 -0500, Gary Tait wrote:

It will, the test button on a GFCI usually, through a resistor, connects
the GFCI protected hot to the unprotected neutral.

That's just the same as loading the circuit, it won't work. GFCIs monitor
current in *both* hot and neutral, which should be the same.

You need to create an imbalance current by introducing a resistance
between hot and *ground* 5mA might do it. 30mA _must_ do it, or the
protection is no damn good.

If you connect to the neutral (before the circuit) and to live (after),
then that works.

Wayne Boatwright · Nov 17, 2003

Ian Stirling <root@mauve.demon.co.uk> wrote in
news:7h2ub.9408$lm1.66364@wards.force9.net:

In sci.electronics.design Fred Abse <excretatauris@cerebrumconfus.it
wrote:
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 20:18:15 -0500, Gary Tait wrote:

It will, the test button on a GFCI usually, through a resistor,
connects the GFCI protected hot to the unprotected neutral.

That's just the same as loading the circuit, it won't work. GFCIs
monitor current in *both* hot and neutral, which should be the same.

You need to create an imbalance current by introducing a resistance
between hot and *ground* 5mA might do it. 30mA _must_ do it, or the
protection is no damn good.

If you connect to the neutral (before the circuit) and to live
(after), then that works.

Does the use of a GFCI outlet help in a situation where is circuit is
merely overloaded, but not short-circuited?

THX
Wayne

w_tom · Nov 17, 2003

Good idea if only using theoretical knowledge. Bad in
reality. It is a classical example of why decisions based only
upon theory are not sufficient. It is why they teach in high
school science the concepts. Required is both the theoretical
concepts AND experiment confirmation. Why is the refrigerator,
specifically demanded by code, not on a GFCI? Because GFCIs
are good in some places and not desirable in others - as has
been proven by experience. A blown GFCI on a refrigerator can
create food poisoning - something learned by field
experiments.

mr-mr-mr@mister.com wrote:

That is why the electric company should install a GFCI up on the
pole at the transformer. That way, everyone and everything is
protected in the whole neighborhood.

Gary Tait · Nov 17, 2003

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 02:47:00 -0600, mr-mr-mr@mister.com wrote:

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 15:44:40 -0700, Jim Thompson
invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

Went outside to add another electrical circuit at the BBQ and
discovered that all of my nice wire-tagging had faded to non-readable.

So I couldn't figure out which common went with which hot.

Then it dawned on me to simply trip the GFCIs which releases *both*
hots and commons so a simple ohm-meter check would do the trick.

NOT! Both GFCIs wouldn't trip when I pressed the test buttons :-(

Went to Radio Shack and bought a Receptacle/GFCI tester for $5.99.

At the same time I noticed a gadget to locate breakers... bought it
also ($29.95).

Went home and tested the GFCIs... both have failed :-( Tester was
verified on some indoor GFCIs... it would trip them.

Both bad units are outdoors, so maybe it was the heat (they both face
the western sun... it gets over 120°F here . Any other ideas about
why they fail?

The breaker locator is neat... plug a sender unit into an outlet, then
scan the breakers... works like a champ.

...Jim Thompson

That is why the electric company should install a GFCI up on the pole
at the transformer. That way, everyone and everything is protected in
the whole neighborhood.

It would be incpnvenient to wait for the Poco to reset it. The best
thing would be a whole house GFCI, as is oftern used in most of the
rest of the world.

Childfree Scott · Nov 17, 2003

Went outside to add another electrical circuit at the BBQ and
discovered that all of my nice wire-tagging had faded to non-readable.

Didn't you use the appropriate colored wires?

And as to why they didn't last you don't give us enough details.
There are different grades of receptacles. Plus being put outdoors
certainly does not help. I have no idea how good the housing is and
if it leaks. Plus I have no idea if the GFCI's that broke were cheap
ones made in China.

Jim Thompson · Nov 17, 2003

On 17 Nov 2003 12:22:31 -0800, scott_z500@my-deja.com (Childfree
Scott) wrote:

Went outside to add another electrical circuit at the BBQ and
discovered that all of my nice wire-tagging had faded to non-readable.

Didn't you use the appropriate colored wires?

And as to why they didn't last you don't give us enough details.
There are different grades of receptacles. Plus being put outdoors
certainly does not help. I have no idea how good the housing is and
if it leaks. Plus I have no idea if the GFCI's that broke were cheap
ones made in China.

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Jim Thompson · Nov 17, 2003

On 17 Nov 2003 12:22:31 -0800, scott_z500@my-deja.com (Childfree
Scott) wrote:

Went outside to add another electrical circuit at the BBQ and
discovered that all of my nice wire-tagging had faded to non-readable.

Didn't you use the appropriate colored wires?

And as to why they didn't last you don't give us enough details.
There are different grades of receptacles. Plus being put outdoors
certainly does not help. I have no idea how good the housing is and
if it leaks. Plus I have no idea if the GFCI's that broke were cheap
ones made in China.

Should have also noted: The wiring in question was pre-placed for
expansion and capped off with wire nuts. So now I have to pair off
the black and red with the proper white, otherwise the GFCIs will trip
on any load.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Michael A. Terrell · Nov 17, 2003

Gary Tait wrote:

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 02:47:00 -0600, mr-mr-mr@mister.com wrote:

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 15:44:40 -0700, Jim Thompson
invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

Went outside to add another electrical circuit at the BBQ and
discovered that all of my nice wire-tagging had faded to non-readable.

So I couldn't figure out which common went with which hot.

Then it dawned on me to simply trip the GFCIs which releases *both*
hots and commons so a simple ohm-meter check would do the trick.

NOT! Both GFCIs wouldn't trip when I pressed the test buttons :-(

Went to Radio Shack and bought a Receptacle/GFCI tester for $5.99.

At the same time I noticed a gadget to locate breakers... bought it
also ($29.95).

Went home and tested the GFCIs... both have failed :-( Tester was
verified on some indoor GFCIs... it would trip them.

Both bad units are outdoors, so maybe it was the heat (they both face
the western sun... it gets over 120°F here . Any other ideas about
why they fail?

The breaker locator is neat... plug a sender unit into an outlet, then
scan the breakers... works like a champ.

...Jim Thompson

That is why the electric company should install a GFCI up on the pole
at the transformer. That way, everyone and everything is protected in
the whole neighborhood.

It would be inconvenient to wait for the Poco to reset it. The best
thing would be a whole house GFCI, as is oftern used in most of the
rest of the world.

So something minor happens, and all the lights go off? THIS IS A VERY
STUPID IDEA. The code here requires separate lighting and receptacle
circuits so the room doesn't go dark if you trip a breaker. Also, most
areas of a home do not need GFCI protection. Wet areas, areas with bare
concrete floors, or outdoors make sense. Some circuits it is illegal to
use a GFCI breaker, like a refrigerator, or a freezer.
--

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Jeff · Nov 17, 2003

<ehsjr@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message
news:3FB8763D.57766474@bellatlantic.net...

Jeff wrote:

Breakers are the best,

Why are breakers the best?

Because GFI breakers are at the panel, and all wiring, outlets, accessories,
etc are protected, not just the ones after the GFI outlet. GFI breakers
should be more reliable, especially since they are in a usually fairly
controlled environment. GFI breakers are also located in one spot - if a GFI
plug trips from an outlet later on in the circuit, then there may be some
difficulty in locating which GFI outlet tripped, or if a normal breaker
tripped from over current.

however they generally cost 4 to 8 times as much, and
have the inconvenience of needing to go to the panel every time they
trip
(and they can trip often when using power outside). The GFI plugs also
have
terminals to wire additional plugs, lights, etc to protect things later
on
in the circuit.

Jim

Mark Jones · Nov 17, 2003

In news:3FB93DBE.447E6494@earthlink.net (Michael A. Terrell):

Gary Tait wrote:

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 02:47:00 -0600, mr-mr-mr@mister.com wrote:

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 15:44:40 -0700, Jim Thompson
invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

Went outside to add another electrical circuit at the BBQ and
discovered that all of my nice wire-tagging had faded to
non-readable.

So I couldn't figure out which common went with which hot.

Then it dawned on me to simply trip the GFCIs which releases *both*
hots and commons so a simple ohm-meter check would do the trick.

NOT! Both GFCIs wouldn't trip when I pressed the test buttons :-(

Went to Radio Shack and bought a Receptacle/GFCI tester for $5.99.

At the same time I noticed a gadget to locate breakers... bought it
also ($29.95).

Went home and tested the GFCIs... both have failed :-( Tester was
verified on some indoor GFCIs... it would trip them.

Both bad units are outdoors, so maybe it was the heat (they both face
the western sun... it gets over 120°F here . Any other ideas
about why they fail?

The breaker locator is neat... plug a sender unit into an outlet,
then scan the breakers... works like a champ.

...Jim Thompson

That is why the electric company should install a GFCI up on the pole
at the transformer. That way, everyone and everything is protected in
the whole neighborhood.

It would be inconvenient to wait for the Poco to reset it. The best
thing would be a whole house GFCI, as is oftern used in most of the
rest of the world.

So something minor happens, and all the lights go off? THIS IS A VERY
STUPID IDEA. The code here requires separate lighting and receptacle
circuits so the room doesn't go dark if you trip a breaker. Also, most
areas of a home do not need GFCI protection. Wet areas, areas with bare
concrete floors, or outdoors make sense. Some circuits it is illegal to
use a GFCI breaker, like a refrigerator, or a freezer.

Really. If we have to ground-fault an entire house (because the occupants
are too stupid and keep getting electrocuted to death) then maybe they
should just go live in a hut somewhere in Afghanistan, where there is little
risk of electrocution?

Mark Jones · Nov 17, 2003

In news:2uOdnSWlSJSd3CSiRVn-sA@buckeye-express.com (Mark Jones):

In news:3FB93DBE.447E6494@earthlink.net (Michael A. Terrell):
Gary Tait wrote:

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 02:47:00 -0600, mr-mr-mr@mister.com wrote:

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 15:44:40 -0700, Jim Thompson
invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

Went outside to add another electrical circuit at the BBQ and
discovered that all of my nice wire-tagging had faded to
non-readable.

So I couldn't figure out which common went with which hot.

Then it dawned on me to simply trip the GFCIs which releases *both*
hots and commons so a simple ohm-meter check would do the trick.

NOT! Both GFCIs wouldn't trip when I pressed the test buttons :-(

Went to Radio Shack and bought a Receptacle/GFCI tester for $5.99.

At the same time I noticed a gadget to locate breakers... bought it
also ($29.95).

Went home and tested the GFCIs... both have failed :-( Tester was
verified on some indoor GFCIs... it would trip them.

Both bad units are outdoors, so maybe it was the heat (they both
face the western sun... it gets over 120°F here . Any other
ideas about why they fail?

The breaker locator is neat... plug a sender unit into an outlet,
then scan the breakers... works like a champ.

...Jim Thompson

That is why the electric company should install a GFCI up on the pole
at the transformer. That way, everyone and everything is protected
in the whole neighborhood.

It would be inconvenient to wait for the Poco to reset it. The best
thing would be a whole house GFCI, as is oftern used in most of the
rest of the world.

So something minor happens, and all the lights go off? THIS IS A
VERY STUPID IDEA. The code here requires separate lighting and
receptacle circuits so the room doesn't go dark if you trip a breaker.
Also, most areas of a home do not need GFCI protection. Wet areas,
areas with bare concrete floors, or outdoors make sense. Some circuits
it is illegal to use a GFCI breaker, like a refrigerator, or a freezer.

Really. If we have to ground-fault an entire house (because the
occupants are too stupid and keep getting electrocuted to death) then
maybe they should just go live in a hut somewhere in Afghanistan, where
there is little risk of electrocution?

Speaking of electrocution, I got quite a nasty zap from my plasma cutter
the other day. 380VAC/20A plasma arc (open circuit), ground clamp wasn't
getting sufficient contact with rusty metal. That was with rubber soled
shoes (no steel toe), apron, and thick leather welding gloves. Anyone got a
GFCI for that baby?

Jeff · Nov 17, 2003

It would be incpnvenient to wait for the Poco to reset it. The best
thing would be a whole house GFCI, as is oftern used in most of the
rest of the world.

Whole house GFI? Where is this "rest of the world"? GFI'ing a whole house
would be stupid.

Michael A. Terrell · Nov 17, 2003

Mark Jones wrote:

In news:2uOdnSWlSJSd3CSiRVn-sA@buckeye-express.com (Mark Jones):
In news:3FB93DBE.447E6494@earthlink.net (Michael A. Terrell):
Gary Tait wrote:

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 02:47:00 -0600, mr-mr-mr@mister.com wrote:

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 15:44:40 -0700, Jim Thompson
invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

Went outside to add another electrical circuit at the BBQ and
discovered that all of my nice wire-tagging had faded to
non-readable.

So I couldn't figure out which common went with which hot.

Then it dawned on me to simply trip the GFCIs which releases *both*
hots and commons so a simple ohm-meter check would do the trick.

NOT! Both GFCIs wouldn't trip when I pressed the test buttons :-(

Went to Radio Shack and bought a Receptacle/GFCI tester for $5.99.

At the same time I noticed a gadget to locate breakers... bought it
also ($29.95).

Went home and tested the GFCIs... both have failed :-( Tester was
verified on some indoor GFCIs... it would trip them.

Both bad units are outdoors, so maybe it was the heat (they both
face the western sun... it gets over 120°F here . Any other
ideas about why they fail?

The breaker locator is neat... plug a sender unit into an outlet,
then scan the breakers... works like a champ.

...Jim Thompson

That is why the electric company should install a GFCI up on the pole
at the transformer. That way, everyone and everything is protected
in the whole neighborhood.

It would be inconvenient to wait for the Poco to reset it. The best
thing would be a whole house GFCI, as is oftern used in most of the
rest of the world.

So something minor happens, and all the lights go off? THIS IS A
VERY STUPID IDEA. The code here requires separate lighting and
receptacle circuits so the room doesn't go dark if you trip a breaker.
Also, most areas of a home do not need GFCI protection. Wet areas,
areas with bare concrete floors, or outdoors make sense. Some circuits
it is illegal to use a GFCI breaker, like a refrigerator, or a freezer.

Really. If we have to ground-fault an entire house (because the
occupants are too stupid and keep getting electrocuted to death) then
maybe they should just go live in a hut somewhere in Afghanistan, where
there is little risk of electrocution?

Speaking of electrocution, I got quite a nasty zap from my plasma cutter
the other day. 380VAC/20A plasma arc (open circuit), ground clamp wasn't
getting sufficient contact with rusty metal. That was with rubber soled
shoes (no steel toe), apron, and thick leather welding gloves. Anyone got a
GFCI for that baby?

No, but I have a suggestion. A second ground clip, connected to a low
voltage power supply, and a relay with a low voltage, high current coil.
Then use the relay contacts to make sure that both clamps are making
good contact, the plasma cutter doesn't fire up. The second clamp
wouldn't have to be as heavy as the ground clamp, and you might even
mount them together, so you put them on the metal like they were a
single clamp.
--

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Dbowey · Nov 17, 2003

scott posted, in part:

Plus I have no idea if the GFCI's that broke were cheap
ones made in China.

They might even have been some cheap crap made in the U.S.

Steve Sousa · Nov 18, 2003

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

So something minor happens, and all the lights go off? THIS IS A
VERY STUPID IDEA.

A ground fault is not something i would consider minor. I'd rather be
inconvinienced(sp?) by having to go to the box and reset the gfi than get
shocked by faulty equipment.
You can have a fault anywhere and on any electrical device on the house, why
limit protection ?

The code here requires separate lighting and
receptacle circuits so the room doesn't go dark if you trip a
breaker.

We have that too. Different breakers for lighting and receptacles.

More info: country is Portugal, Here we have the meter, followed by a big
breaker that is also a GFI (which we call "differential breaker") outside
the house/apartment, the differential fault current is 500mA and overcurrent
is settable from 10 to 30 Amps, according to hired power.
Then, inside the house there is the main panel with a smaller breaker/gfi
that feeds all the circuit breakers. Mine is 30mA, way too high, in my
experience. Lights and receptacles have to be on different circuits. Power
is 3 phase at least for most houses, i'm not sure about apartments.

circuits it is illegal to use a GFCI breaker, like a refrigerator, or
a freezer.

Why?

--
Steve Sous

Me · Nov 18, 2003

Speaking of electrocution, I got quite a nasty zap from my plasma cutter
the other day. 380VAC/20A plasma arc (open circuit), ground clamp wasn't
getting sufficient contact with rusty metal. That was with rubber soled
shoes (no steel toe), apron, and thick leather welding gloves. Anyone got a
GFCI for that baby?

I need one for my stick welder. I wont weld in the garage because I
started a fire in there once (I was able to make it out). So, I weld
outside, in front of the garage door. This is fine, except when the
ground is damp. I have gotten zapped far too many times when changing
the welding rods.

Nov 18, 2003

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 22:03:14 GMT, "Jeff" <levy_jeff@hotmail.com>
wrote:

It would be incpnvenient to wait for the Poco to reset it. The best
thing would be a whole house GFCI, as is oftern used in most of the
rest of the world.

Whole house GFI? Where is this "rest of the world"? GFI'ing a whole house
would be stupid.

Why not just have one huge GFI for the entire electric grid. Then
just hire a guy to sit there all day and reset it every 10 seconds.
But, hey, look at the bright side of this. You would not need a
flasher on your christmas lights......

Michael A. Terrell · Nov 18, 2003

Steve Sousa wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
So something minor happens, and all the lights go off? THIS IS A
VERY STUPID IDEA.

A ground fault is not something i would consider minor. I'd rather be
inconvinienced(sp?) by having to go to the box and reset the gfi than get
shocked by faulty equipment.
You can have a fault anywhere and on any electrical device on the house, why
limit protection ?

You don't need to shut down the whole house for one fault.

The code here requires separate lighting and
receptacle circuits so the room doesn't go dark if you trip a
breaker.

We have that too. Different breakers for lighting and receptacles.

More info: country is Portugal, Here we have the meter, followed by a big
breaker that is also a GFI (which we call "differential breaker") outside
the house/apartment, the differential fault current is 500mA and overcurrent
is settable from 10 to 30 Amps, according to hired power.
Then, inside the house there is the main panel with a smaller breaker/gfi
that feeds all the circuit breakers. Mine is 30mA, way too high, in my
experience. Lights and receptacles have to be on different circuits. Power
is 3 phase at least for most houses, i'm not sure about apartments.

In the US we have individual GFCI breakers, or outlets, so you can
protect any area without killing everything in the house. I prefer our
method. Especially when I am working out in my shop after dark. I have
trouble walking, and I would have to wait till daylight peeked into the
air vents along the roof so i could see well enough to make my way out
of a metal building with no windows.

circuits it is illegal to use a GFCI breaker, like a refrigerator, or
a freezer.

Why?

Do you like to eat spoiled food? What happens if you are gone for a
couple days and that GFI trips? with no one home to notice, you have a
big mess to clean up, not to mention the cost of replacing all the food.
--

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

GFCI Failures + Gadgets

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Wayne Boatwright

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w_tom

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Gary Tait

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Childfree Scott

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Jim Thompson

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Jim Thompson

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Michael A. Terrell

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Jeff

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Mark Jones

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Mark Jones

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