Finding the cmos battery...

[Cursitor Doom]

Hi all,

I have a Roberts Stream 105 internet radio which I bought about 9
years ago. It\'s been fine up until maybe 18 months ago when it could
no longer remember my preferred settings. I\'m guessing it has a little
backup cell in there somewhere that\'s gone way past its sell-by date.
I\'ve opened up the case and it must be very well hidden indeed. I
asked Roberts for info on where it is but they obfuscated and told me
to return it to them and they\'d fix it for 40 quid! There are no
manuals for this model on line (not service manuals anyway) and I *do*
like to fix things for myself as a matter of course anyway. The inside
consists of only 3 boards apart from the display: an audio board (as
it describes itself) the wireless card (I deduce from the fact that
although it\'s fully screened it\'s got a MAC address label on it) and
controller board interfacing to the user controls.
The only place this battery could be hiding is within a screened
enclosure on the \"audio board\". Now, I should have done this sooner
obviously, but time shortages and whatnot, I\'ve probed the underside
of the screened area and found a persistent 0.3V above ground on some
of the joints. Does that sound like the sort of voltage a backup cell
would fall back to after 9 years? This 0.3V is with all external power
removed and after shorting out any capacitances.

 

[Peter W.]

My guess is that it is a 2032 button cell - which have been popular for that function for a long time. Are you able to apply about 3V at the appropriate polarity and see if the memory comes back? Or even 1.5V as proof-of-concept?

After which comes the question of whether it is rechargeable (LIR2032) or not (CR2032).

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[Cursitor Doom]

On Wed, 6 Jan 2021 10:40:30 -0800 (PST), \"Peter W.\"
<peterwieck33@gmail.com> wrote:

My guess is that it is a 2032 button cell - which have been popular for that function for a long time. Are you able to apply about 3V at the appropriate polarity and see if the memory comes back? Or even 1.5V as proof-of-concept?

After which comes the question of whether it is rechargeable (LIR2032) or not (CR2032).

I was thinking *if* it is rechargeable, I *could* (could I not?)
replace with an equivalent non-rechargeable in series with a diode to
prevent it from taking a charge it\'s not designed for?

 

[Chuck]

On Wed, 06 Jan 2021 18:00:32 +0000, Cursitor Doom <cd@noreply.com>
wrote:

Hi all,

I have a Roberts Stream 105 internet radio which I bought about 9
years ago. It\'s been fine up until maybe 18 months ago when it could
no longer remember my preferred settings. I\'m guessing it has a little
backup cell in there somewhere that\'s gone way past its sell-by date.
I\'ve opened up the case and it must be very well hidden indeed. I
asked Roberts for info on where it is but they obfuscated and told me
to return it to them and they\'d fix it for 40 quid! There are no
manuals for this model on line (not service manuals anyway) and I *do*
like to fix things for myself as a matter of course anyway. The inside
consists of only 3 boards apart from the display: an audio board (as
it describes itself) the wireless card (I deduce from the fact that
although it\'s fully screened it\'s got a MAC address label on it) and
controller board interfacing to the user controls.
The only place this battery could be hiding is within a screened
enclosure on the \"audio board\". Now, I should have done this sooner
obviously, but time shortages and whatnot, I\'ve probed the underside
of the screened area and found a persistent 0.3V above ground on some
of the joints. Does that sound like the sort of voltage a backup cell
would fall back to after 9 years? This 0.3V is with all external power
removed and after shorting out any capacitances.

Look for a 1/2 to1 farad electrolytic capacitor. Probably near the
upc.

 

[KenW]

On Wed, 06 Jan 2021 13:44:19 -0600, Chuck <chuck23@dejanews.net>
wrote:

On Wed, 06 Jan 2021 18:00:32 +0000, Cursitor Doom <cd@noreply.com
wrote:

Hi all,

I have a Roberts Stream 105 internet radio which I bought about 9
years ago. It\'s been fine up until maybe 18 months ago when it could
no longer remember my preferred settings. I\'m guessing it has a little
backup cell in there somewhere that\'s gone way past its sell-by date.
I\'ve opened up the case and it must be very well hidden indeed. I
asked Roberts for info on where it is but they obfuscated and told me
to return it to them and they\'d fix it for 40 quid! There are no
manuals for this model on line (not service manuals anyway) and I *do*
like to fix things for myself as a matter of course anyway. The inside
consists of only 3 boards apart from the display: an audio board (as
it describes itself) the wireless card (I deduce from the fact that
although it\'s fully screened it\'s got a MAC address label on it) and
controller board interfacing to the user controls.
The only place this battery could be hiding is within a screened
enclosure on the \"audio board\". Now, I should have done this sooner
obviously, but time shortages and whatnot, I\'ve probed the underside
of the screened area and found a persistent 0.3V above ground on some
of the joints. Does that sound like the sort of voltage a backup cell
would fall back to after 9 years? This 0.3V is with all external power
removed and after shorting out any capacitances.
Look for a 1/2 to1 farad electrolytic capacitor. Probably near the
upc.

Caps were used to retain voltage to a circuit. Some telephone systems
I worked on used them.


KenW

 

[Cursitor Doom]

On Wed, 06 Jan 2021 12:56:07 -0700, KenW
<ken1943@invalid.net> wrote:

On Wed, 06 Jan 2021 13:44:19 -0600, Chuck <chuck23@dejanews.net
wrote:

On Wed, 06 Jan 2021 18:00:32 +0000, Cursitor Doom <cd@noreply.com
wrote:

Hi all,

I have a Roberts Stream 105 internet radio which I bought about 9
years ago. It\'s been fine up until maybe 18 months ago when it could
no longer remember my preferred settings. I\'m guessing it has a little
backup cell in there somewhere that\'s gone way past its sell-by date.
I\'ve opened up the case and it must be very well hidden indeed. I
asked Roberts for info on where it is but they obfuscated and told me
to return it to them and they\'d fix it for 40 quid! There are no
manuals for this model on line (not service manuals anyway) and I *do*
like to fix things for myself as a matter of course anyway. The inside
consists of only 3 boards apart from the display: an audio board (as
it describes itself) the wireless card (I deduce from the fact that
although it\'s fully screened it\'s got a MAC address label on it) and
controller board interfacing to the user controls.
The only place this battery could be hiding is within a screened
enclosure on the \"audio board\". Now, I should have done this sooner
obviously, but time shortages and whatnot, I\'ve probed the underside
of the screened area and found a persistent 0.3V above ground on some
of the joints. Does that sound like the sort of voltage a backup cell
would fall back to after 9 years? This 0.3V is with all external power
removed and after shorting out any capacitances.
Look for a 1/2 to1 farad electrolytic capacitor. Probably near the
upc.

Caps were used to retain voltage to a circuit. Some telephone systems
I worked on used them.

What? Are you guys saying there may be no actual battery at all? And
they\'ve used an electro in place of one?

 

[Cursitor Doom]

On Wed, 06 Jan 2021 13:44:19 -0600, Chuck <chuck23@dejanews.net>
wrote:

On Wed, 06 Jan 2021 18:00:32 +0000, Cursitor Doom <cd@noreply.com
wrote:

Hi all,

I have a Roberts Stream 105 internet radio which I bought about 9
years ago. It\'s been fine up until maybe 18 months ago when it could
no longer remember my preferred settings. I\'m guessing it has a little
backup cell in there somewhere that\'s gone way past its sell-by date.
I\'ve opened up the case and it must be very well hidden indeed. I
asked Roberts for info on where it is but they obfuscated and told me
to return it to them and they\'d fix it for 40 quid! There are no
manuals for this model on line (not service manuals anyway) and I *do*
like to fix things for myself as a matter of course anyway. The inside
consists of only 3 boards apart from the display: an audio board (as
it describes itself) the wireless card (I deduce from the fact that
although it\'s fully screened it\'s got a MAC address label on it) and
controller board interfacing to the user controls.
The only place this battery could be hiding is within a screened
enclosure on the \"audio board\". Now, I should have done this sooner
obviously, but time shortages and whatnot, I\'ve probed the underside
of the screened area and found a persistent 0.3V above ground on some
of the joints. Does that sound like the sort of voltage a backup cell
would fall back to after 9 years? This 0.3V is with all external power
removed and after shorting out any capacitances.
Look for a 1/2 to1 farad electrolytic capacitor. Probably near the
upc.

At that value it would be a supercapacitor I\'d imagine. Were they
installing those in new equipment 10 years ago?

 

[ohg...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, January 6, 2021 at 3:49:00 PM UTC-5, Cursitor Doom wrote:

On Wed, 06 Jan 2021 12:56:07 -0700, KenW
ken...@invalid.net> wrote:

On Wed, 06 Jan 2021 13:44:19 -0600, Chuck <chu...@dejanews.net
wrote:

On Wed, 06 Jan 2021 18:00:32 +0000, Cursitor Doom <c...@noreply.com
wrote:

Hi all,

I have a Roberts Stream 105 internet radio which I bought about 9
years ago. It\'s been fine up until maybe 18 months ago when it could
no longer remember my preferred settings. I\'m guessing it has a little
backup cell in there somewhere that\'s gone way past its sell-by date.
I\'ve opened up the case and it must be very well hidden indeed. I
asked Roberts for info on where it is but they obfuscated and told me
to return it to them and they\'d fix it for 40 quid! There are no
manuals for this model on line (not service manuals anyway) and I *do*
like to fix things for myself as a matter of course anyway. The inside
consists of only 3 boards apart from the display: an audio board (as
it describes itself) the wireless card (I deduce from the fact that
although it\'s fully screened it\'s got a MAC address label on it) and
controller board interfacing to the user controls.
The only place this battery could be hiding is within a screened
enclosure on the \"audio board\". Now, I should have done this sooner
obviously, but time shortages and whatnot, I\'ve probed the underside
of the screened area and found a persistent 0.3V above ground on some
of the joints. Does that sound like the sort of voltage a backup cell
would fall back to after 9 years? This 0.3V is with all external power
removed and after shorting out any capacitances.
Look for a 1/2 to1 farad electrolytic capacitor. Probably near the
upc.

Caps were used to retain voltage to a circuit. Some telephone systems
I worked on used them.

What? Are you guys saying there may be no actual battery at all? And
they\'ve used an electro in place of one?

I remember several consumer electronic items using a \"supercap\", something like 0.47F. They did go bad certainly.

 

[KenW]

What? Are you guys saying there may be no actual battery at all? And
they\'ve used an electro in place of one?

Very possible


KenW

 

[Chuck]

Cursitor Doom <cd@noreply.com> Wrote in message:r

On Wed, 06 Jan 2021 12:56:07 -0700, KenW<ken1943@invalid.net> wrote:>On Wed, 06 Jan 2021 13:44:19 -0600, Chuck <chuck23@dejanews.net>>wrote:>>>On Wed, 06 Jan 2021 18:00:32 +0000, Cursitor Doom <cd@noreply.com>>>wrote:>>>>>Hi all,>>>>>>I have a Roberts Stream 105 internet radio which I bought about 9>>>years ago. It\'s been fine up until maybe 18 months ago when it could>>>no longer remember my preferred settings. I\'m guessing it has a little>>>backup cell in there somewhere that\'s gone way past its sell-by date.>>>I\'ve opened up the case and it must be very well hidden indeed. I>>>asked Roberts for info on where it is but they obfuscated and told me>>>to return it to them and they\'d fix it for 40 quid! There are no>>>manuals for this model on line (not service manuals anyway) and I *do*>>>like to fix things for myself as a matter of course anyway. The inside>>>consists of only 3 boards apart from the display: an audio board (as>>>it describes itself) the wireless card (I deduce from the fact that>>>although it\'s fully screened it\'s got a MAC address label on it) and>>>controller board interfacing to the user controls.>>>The only place this battery could be hiding is within a scre
ened>>>enclosure on the \"audio board\". Now, I should have done this sooner>>>obviously, but time shortages and whatnot, I\'ve probed the underside>>>of the screened area and found a persistent 0.3V above ground on some>>>of the joints. Does that sound like the sort of voltage a backup cell>>>would fall back to after 9 years? This 0.3V is with all external power>>>removed and after shorting out any capacitances.>>Look for a 1/2 to1 farad electrolytic capacitor. Probably near the>>upc.>>Caps were used to retain voltage to a circuit. Some telephone systems>I worked on used them.What? Are you guys saying there may be no actual battery at all? Andthey\'ve used an electro in place of one?

The .47 to 1F caps have been used for 30 years in stereo receivers.
--

 

[Cursitor Doom]

On Wed, 6 Jan 2021 21:40:39 -0600 (CST), Chuck <chuck12@deja.net>
wrote:

>The .47 to 1F caps have been used for 30 years in stereo receivers.

I\'m suitably amazed. Mind you I\'ve never had much to do with them.

 

[bilou]

On 06/01/2021 21:51, Cursitor Doom wrote:

At that value it would be a supercapacitor I\'d imagine. Were they
installing those in new equipment 10 years ago?

Sure for memory function but for any active function,like RTC,
batteries are still mostly used.

 

[Chuck]

On Thu, 07 Jan 2021 14:26:06 +0000, Cursitor Doom <cd@noreply.com>
wrote:

On Wed, 6 Jan 2021 21:40:39 -0600 (CST), Chuck <chuck12@deja.net
wrote:

The .47 to 1F caps have been used for 30 years in stereo receivers.

I\'m suitably amazed. Mind you I\'ve never had much to do with them.

Come to think of it, a Denon tuner that I bought in 1988 has a super
capacitor for memory.

 

[legg]

On Wed, 06 Jan 2021 20:51:28 +0000, Cursitor Doom <cd@noreply.com>
wrote:

On Wed, 06 Jan 2021 13:44:19 -0600, Chuck <chuck23@dejanews.net
wrote:

On Wed, 06 Jan 2021 18:00:32 +0000, Cursitor Doom <cd@noreply.com
wrote:

Hi all,

I have a Roberts Stream 105 internet radio which I bought about 9
years ago. It\'s been fine up until maybe 18 months ago when it could
no longer remember my preferred settings. I\'m guessing it has a little
backup cell in there somewhere that\'s gone way past its sell-by date.
I\'ve opened up the case and it must be very well hidden indeed. I
asked Roberts for info on where it is but they obfuscated and told me
to return it to them and they\'d fix it for 40 quid! There are no
manuals for this model on line (not service manuals anyway) and I *do*
like to fix things for myself as a matter of course anyway. The inside
consists of only 3 boards apart from the display: an audio board (as
it describes itself) the wireless card (I deduce from the fact that
although it\'s fully screened it\'s got a MAC address label on it) and
controller board interfacing to the user controls.
The only place this battery could be hiding is within a screened
enclosure on the \"audio board\". Now, I should have done this sooner
obviously, but time shortages and whatnot, I\'ve probed the underside
of the screened area and found a persistent 0.3V above ground on some
of the joints. Does that sound like the sort of voltage a backup cell
would fall back to after 9 years? This 0.3V is with all external power
removed and after shorting out any capacitances.
Look for a 1/2 to1 farad electrolytic capacitor. Probably near the
upc.

At that value it would be a supercapacitor I\'d imagine. Were they
installing those in new equipment 10 years ago?

They were showing up as surplus 20 years ago.

RL

 

[Cursitor Doom]

On Thu, 07 Jan 2021 13:33:31 -0500, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:

On Wed, 06 Jan 2021 20:51:28 +0000, Cursitor Doom <cd@noreply.com
wrote:

On Wed, 06 Jan 2021 13:44:19 -0600, Chuck <chuck23@dejanews.net
wrote:

On Wed, 06 Jan 2021 18:00:32 +0000, Cursitor Doom <cd@noreply.com
wrote:

Hi all,

I have a Roberts Stream 105 internet radio which I bought about 9
years ago. It\'s been fine up until maybe 18 months ago when it could
no longer remember my preferred settings. I\'m guessing it has a little
backup cell in there somewhere that\'s gone way past its sell-by date.
I\'ve opened up the case and it must be very well hidden indeed. I
asked Roberts for info on where it is but they obfuscated and told me
to return it to them and they\'d fix it for 40 quid! There are no
manuals for this model on line (not service manuals anyway) and I *do*
like to fix things for myself as a matter of course anyway. The inside
consists of only 3 boards apart from the display: an audio board (as
it describes itself) the wireless card (I deduce from the fact that
although it\'s fully screened it\'s got a MAC address label on it) and
controller board interfacing to the user controls.
The only place this battery could be hiding is within a screened
enclosure on the \"audio board\". Now, I should have done this sooner
obviously, but time shortages and whatnot, I\'ve probed the underside
of the screened area and found a persistent 0.3V above ground on some
of the joints. Does that sound like the sort of voltage a backup cell
would fall back to after 9 years? This 0.3V is with all external power
removed and after shorting out any capacitances.
Look for a 1/2 to1 farad electrolytic capacitor. Probably near the
upc.

At that value it would be a supercapacitor I\'d imagine. Were they
installing those in new equipment 10 years ago?

They were showing up as surplus 20 years ago.

RL

Well I can\'t understand in that case why there are so few of them
listed on Ebay currently. I may have to imrovise here and go back to
my initial idea of using a lithium button cell in series with a diode
to prevent it being charged.

Anyone see any issues with that approach?

 

[Cursitor Doom]

On Thu, 07 Jan 2021 12:25:54 -0600, Chuck <chuck23@dejanews.net>
wrote:

On Thu, 07 Jan 2021 14:26:06 +0000, Cursitor Doom <cd@noreply.com
wrote:

On Wed, 6 Jan 2021 21:40:39 -0600 (CST), Chuck <chuck12@deja.net
wrote:

The .47 to 1F caps have been used for 30 years in stereo receivers.

I\'m suitably amazed. Mind you I\'ve never had much to do with them.
Come to think of it, a Denon tuner that I bought in 1988 has a super
capacitor for memory.

Hmmm. I think clearly the older one gets, the harder it is keeping up
to date with new innovations if you\'re not fully immersed in the field
as a career (I\'m not!)

 

[Peter W.]

> Anyone see any issues with that approach?

Yes. Purchasing anything of that nature from eBay is an issue. Given that a counterfeit - not unknown from that source - could destroy your unit.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[Chuck]

On Thu, 07 Jan 2021 23:35:36 +0000, Cursitor Doom <cd@noreply.com>
wrote:

On Thu, 07 Jan 2021 13:33:31 -0500, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:

On Wed, 06 Jan 2021 20:51:28 +0000, Cursitor Doom <cd@noreply.com
wrote:

On Wed, 06 Jan 2021 13:44:19 -0600, Chuck <chuck23@dejanews.net
wrote:

On Wed, 06 Jan 2021 18:00:32 +0000, Cursitor Doom <cd@noreply.com
wrote:

Hi all,

I have a Roberts Stream 105 internet radio which I bought about 9
years ago. It\'s been fine up until maybe 18 months ago when it could
no longer remember my preferred settings. I\'m guessing it has a little
backup cell in there somewhere that\'s gone way past its sell-by date.
I\'ve opened up the case and it must be very well hidden indeed. I
asked Roberts for info on where it is but they obfuscated and told me
to return it to them and they\'d fix it for 40 quid! There are no
manuals for this model on line (not service manuals anyway) and I *do*
like to fix things for myself as a matter of course anyway. The inside
consists of only 3 boards apart from the display: an audio board (as
it describes itself) the wireless card (I deduce from the fact that
although it\'s fully screened it\'s got a MAC address label on it) and
controller board interfacing to the user controls.
The only place this battery could be hiding is within a screened
enclosure on the \"audio board\". Now, I should have done this sooner
obviously, but time shortages and whatnot, I\'ve probed the underside
of the screened area and found a persistent 0.3V above ground on some
of the joints. Does that sound like the sort of voltage a backup cell
would fall back to after 9 years? This 0.3V is with all external power
removed and after shorting out any capacitances.
Look for a 1/2 to1 farad electrolytic capacitor. Probably near the
upc.

At that value it would be a supercapacitor I\'d imagine. Were they
installing those in new equipment 10 years ago?

They were showing up as surplus 20 years ago.

RL


Well I can\'t understand in that case why there are so few of them
listed on Ebay currently. I may have to imrovise here and go back to
my initial idea of using a lithium button cell in series with a diode
to prevent it being charged.

Anyone see any issues with that approach?

Here is one that is genuine and exactly like the ones I used to use as
a replacement.
https://www.newark.com/kemet/ft0h474zf/supercapacitor-0-47f-5-5v-radial/dp/78AC5690

 

[Cursitor Doom]

On Fri, 08 Jan 2021 11:44:55 -0600, Chuck <chuck23@dejanews.net>
wrote:

On Thu, 07 Jan 2021 23:35:36 +0000, Cursitor Doom <cd@noreply.com
wrote:

On Thu, 07 Jan 2021 13:33:31 -0500, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:

On Wed, 06 Jan 2021 20:51:28 +0000, Cursitor Doom <cd@noreply.com
wrote:

On Wed, 06 Jan 2021 13:44:19 -0600, Chuck <chuck23@dejanews.net
wrote:

On Wed, 06 Jan 2021 18:00:32 +0000, Cursitor Doom <cd@noreply.com
wrote:

Hi all,

I have a Roberts Stream 105 internet radio which I bought about 9
years ago. It\'s been fine up until maybe 18 months ago when it could
no longer remember my preferred settings. I\'m guessing it has a little
backup cell in there somewhere that\'s gone way past its sell-by date.
I\'ve opened up the case and it must be very well hidden indeed. I
asked Roberts for info on where it is but they obfuscated and told me
to return it to them and they\'d fix it for 40 quid! There are no
manuals for this model on line (not service manuals anyway) and I *do*
like to fix things for myself as a matter of course anyway. The inside
consists of only 3 boards apart from the display: an audio board (as
it describes itself) the wireless card (I deduce from the fact that
although it\'s fully screened it\'s got a MAC address label on it) and
controller board interfacing to the user controls.
The only place this battery could be hiding is within a screened
enclosure on the \"audio board\". Now, I should have done this sooner
obviously, but time shortages and whatnot, I\'ve probed the underside
of the screened area and found a persistent 0.3V above ground on some
of the joints. Does that sound like the sort of voltage a backup cell
would fall back to after 9 years? This 0.3V is with all external power
removed and after shorting out any capacitances.
Look for a 1/2 to1 farad electrolytic capacitor. Probably near the
upc.

At that value it would be a supercapacitor I\'d imagine. Were they
installing those in new equipment 10 years ago?

They were showing up as surplus 20 years ago.

RL


Well I can\'t understand in that case why there are so few of them
listed on Ebay currently. I may have to imrovise here and go back to
my initial idea of using a lithium button cell in series with a diode
to prevent it being charged.

Anyone see any issues with that approach?
Here is one that is genuine and exactly like the ones I used to use as
a replacement.
https://www.newark.com/kemet/ft0h474zf/supercapacitor-0-47f-5-5v-radial/dp/78AC5690

Thanks, but you guys have avoided answering the question about
replacing the supercap with a cell of whatever capacity in series with
a low reverse-leakage diode. Anyone know what the likely voltage that
cell would need to be?

NB: when I say \"whatever capacity\" I refer to A, AA, AAA, C, D etc.
cells.

 

[Peter W.]

There is a somewhat detailed answer to that question.
a) Do you know what voltage is needed to keep the memory function in operation?
b) Given that a battery is the mother of all capacitors, just a bit slower as a chemical engine, you should be able to do a proof-of-concept.
c) And once you have determined the operating voltage (somewhere between 1.2 and 3.5 VDC at a guess), you will have several choices, including your diode option. BUT:

Caveat: Batteries do not like seeing a dead/partial short. So when diode you install is not in use and the circuit is OFF, the battery is in parallel with whatever device is in place, whether a super-cap or a button cell, or something else. If that is shorted, so is the battery. OOPS! It really does behoove you to find the OEM source and repair/replace it as designed. You do not want to wake up one morning and find that your installed battery has spilled its guts all over everything.

Remember the Revox B760 tuner? It had two AA cells under the fold-down door on top of the faceplate. Trust the Swiss to take the very simple brute-force approach.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA