You can also eat horses.
That's not the reason. From my Dad's stories, his horses were huge
Where was that?
<grin> How did they feed their young?
I'm discovering that, when it's very humid here, I get quite ill and
They are? Cows are a lot smarter than horses.
.Oh, horse collar. I never thought of that. I guess I'd thoughtOn Aug 13, 5:42 am, jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv@aol> wrote:
Dean Hoffman > wrote:
jmfbahciv wrote:
j...@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
In sci.physics jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv@aol> wrote:
BretCah...@peoplepc.com wrote:
The last thing my farmer relatives want to do is waste their
time refueling when doing the field work.
No one ever promised that post peak would be a rose garden.
Maybe algae diesel will work out. That's plan A.
If it doesn't then we need a plan B.
Plan C is oxen.
Nope. Horses.
Nah, lpg or synthentic fuel (whatever the feed stock).
You are assuming that there will be manufacturing and bottling
plants. I wasn't. My relatives would use horses, as they
did before, not oxen. I don't remember anybody using oxen.
I wonder why horses were the default.
/BAH
My dad talked about using horses and mules. Horses had to be
rested at the end of the field. I guess mules could plug along all
day. I'm not sure why horses were the preferred choice.
Yup. The same was true in my area. The horses were bigger than
mules. I don't remember seeing any oxen on the farms where I
grew up.
Well, this thread has been worth something; it's caused me to
reexamine one of my hidden assumptions
I don't know anything about caring for oxen; is it similar to cows?
/BAH
An ox is a steer (castrated bull) allowed to live to full growth.
Meat steers are slaughtered while still young and tender and stud
bulls are culled shortly after the onset of sexual maturity and
collection of marketable amounts of sperm. Other than the fact that
oxen are allowed to live as long as dairy cows, there is nothing to
seperate them normal cattle.
They are slower than horses, but their shoulder hump makes them
anatomically better suited to pulling, and they do have longer
endurance. They were rendered obsolete for general farm work by the
horse collar, which solved the problem of strangling horses, as horses
could also be ridden and pull carts at faster than a walking pace.
all the power outages that occur each day.
handwaving.
Centuries? I don't think so.
Maybe horses have more personality than oxen. How would you like to
They _always_ use oxen in scenic places like SE Asia. If we're
We're all gonna die.Well, this thread has been worth something; it's caused me to
reexamine one of my hidden assumptions
I don't know anything about caring for oxen; is it similar to cows?
You mean _one_ century worth of crude.
Some cows are pretty smart. A cow escaped from a local slaughter
That's because you are ignorant of common conversion efficiencies.
Go back to reading yer Harliquin romance novels.
---The last thing my farmer relatives want to do is waste their
time refueling when doing the field work.
No one ever promised that post peak would be a rose garden.
Maybe algae diesel will work out. ?That's plan A.
If it doesn't then we need a plan B.
Plan C is oxen.
Nope. ?Horses.
Nah, lpg or synthentic fuel (whatever the feed stock).
You are assuming that there will be manufacturing and bottling
plants. ?I wasn't. ?My relatives would use horses, as they
did before, not oxen. ?I don't remember anybody using oxen.
I wonder why horses were the default.
Maybe horses have more personality than oxen. How would you like to
be out in a field all day staggering behind an ox?
? ? My dad talked about using horses and mules. ?Horses had to be
rested ?at the end of the field. ?I guess mules could plug along all
day. ? I'm not sure why horses were the preferred choice.
Yup. ?The same was true in my area. ?The horses were bigger than
mules. ?I don't remember seeing any oxen on the farms where I
grew up.
They _always_ use oxen in scenic places like SE Asia. If we're
_ever_ going to have a tourist economy we'll need to use oxen.
Well, this thread has been worth something; it's caused me to
reexamine one of my hidden assumptions
I don't know anything about caring for oxen; is it similar to cows?
We're all gonna die.
Diesels for large ships already achieve 50%, just by being big enough
In SE Asia, they do not use oxen, but do employ waterbuffalo, as they
The highlight of my thermodynamics education was being able to derive
I don't smell anything other than exhaust.
Not that I've noticed. I have a disease which has a symptom where
Group,
Dear Trucker: My suggestions are 'objectives', yours are do-it-nows.On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 10:22:56 -0700, NoEinstein wrote:
On Aug 13, 11:38 am, The Trucker <mik...@verizon.net> wrote:
On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 19:36:15 -0700, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 19:01:41 -0700, "Rob Dekker" <r...@verific.com
wrote:
"John Larkin" <jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in messagenews:rja4a4h09trf53mdoh6jbjdac0pjam04pj@4ax.com...
On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 17:17:24 -0700, "Rob Dekker" <r...@verific.com
wrote:
"John Larkin" <jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in messagenews:5r04a4d87bh0u33c9ka5ns617r62fg03tn@4ax.com...
On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 04:28:03 -0700, "Rob Dekker" <r...@verific.com
wrote:
There are just an amazing amount of new battery possibilities when vehicles
finally move away from the inefficient, polluting, and heavy ICEs, and
towards an era of clean electric drive.
Except that everything else, so far, is less efficient, more
polluting, and heavier. Not to mention way more expensive.
This is not true.
Electric drive is 4X more efficient (not even counting regenerative braking), zero-pollution at the tailpipe (it has none), and is
much lighter than an ICE.
Only if the electricity magically comes from somewhere free, and you
lug enough batteries for 20 miles of travel.
But the electricity sas to be generated somewhere, at thermal
efficiency levels. Transport, chargers, and batteries throw a bunch of
it away. Batteries are heavy and full of nasty chemicals.
More expensive ? Prototypes are always more expensive.
But let's see :
ICE : Complicated engine with lots of rotating and moving parts, with oil + water cooling system, with emission control (incl
catalytic converter with precious metals), with transmission and a differential and exhaust system and a massive amount of pipes
and sensors.
And it all works great. I can load up 200 HP-hours worth of energy in
about 2 minutes at a gas pump. That's about a 5 megawatt equivalent
charging rate. And I can drive coast-to-coast on about an hour of pit
stops.
You seem to confuse electric drive with EVs.
Electric drive with a small auxiliry power unit will give you all the benefits of the current gasoline (or another fuel)
infrastructure.
Like in the Volt (the only model with electric drive that GM actually has a plan for)....
Stuff like this has been "planned" for decades. I'll be impressed whan
quantities of them are on the road.
A plug-in hybrid does make sense for city drivers. But small, light
cars make sense no matter what propels them. A small, light
gasoline-powered car may make the most sense.
The external costs of the fuel do not appear in the price. And if these
costs were part of the price then biofuels would be the best current
alternative. This is true here in the USA because we actually have the
land necessary to produce that fuel and it is land that is not currently
serving any good purpose or land that is serving a purpose that is not as
environmentally and economically valid as it would be if devoted to fuel
production. An example of this latter case is the production of paper
that ends up in the land fills as trash. We could do with a bit less
paper and use the pulp trees to make fuel. That is probably a good trade.
Sometimes I get into my Rabbit in the morning, start it up, drive away
5 seconds later, turn on the radio and the heater, ignore the steep
hills and the cold rain, and marvel at the whole process. And that
hundreds of millions of other working people can afford to do the same
thing.
Yes. me too.
The ICE has served us greatly over the past 100 years that oil was abundant and cheap, and the engineering advances made are
magnificent.
The ICE also enabled an astounding economic growth that we (as the people of this planet) have created for ourselves.
It also created a number of really big problems, which start to become apparent, increasingly difficult and pressing as well as more
and more expensive.
More expensive for individuals, as well as nations, as well as the planet's eco systems.
It's time for change (before another 2 billion people join in our lifestyle).
Electric drive : a few melon-size electric motor/generators and a power control unit.
Add a small (40hp) auxiliry power unit and you drive a 80mpg vehicle.
Mmmm. What would be cheaper in mass production ?
What *is* cheaper?
Want to bet ?
In mass production, I want to bet that electric drive is significantly cheaper to produce than ICEs.
If electric cars are cheaper and more efficient,
why aren't they popular? Conspiracy?
John, I don't believe in conspiracies. In a free market the most cost efficient solution wins. But big changes take time.
The incentives are there now (to start moving to electric drive, away from oil and towards electricity), but only for the last
couple of years.
Also the political will to change (to start moving away from oil and fossil fuels) has not been there.
We are just getting started (with PHEVs).
This process is going to take a while (to move vehicles away from oil and towards electricity).
15-20 years is my estimate.
And biofuels are a big part of that which fills the gap.
Batteries cost ?
If you are an average American, you spend around $3,000/year in gasoline right now.
I bet that for $3,000/year you can lease a top-of-the-line battery pack. Even at current low-volume prices.
What is cheaper ?
What is cleaner ?
What is more efficient ?
What is better prepared for the post Peak-Oil era that we just entered ?
The peak oil point is always 10 years away.
That is impossible.
Oil will peak at some point if it did not already.
Hey, build yourself an electric car and save a bundle. There are lots
of conversion kits on the market.
I might just do that, although retrofits are very seldom cost-effective.
I pretty much have to throw away half the vehicle (ICE/drivetrain etc etc you know it).
And the other half (chassis) got crumbled on I 238 last week
There just aren't any good batteries.
After all we talked about, this is what you say ?
It seems to me that you have made up your mind on this subject.
Where's the great battery? I suspect a really good auto battery may be
impossible.
Biodiesel is one super duper battery. The shelf life is really good and
the weight is not all that bad for the energy content. The photosynthesis
is a the way you charge the battery. We need better algae that can get
20% efficiency as opposed to 8%. There was some promising research on
this and some folks observing less than 8 photons to cause proper
reactions and then .... nothing. There were some dudes shifting light
wavelengths from blue to yellow red and that seems to have gone also.
Nothing is happening that I can find.
How do I search (like google) the patent data to find stuff like this?
--
"I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers
of society but the people themselves; and
if we think them not enlightened enough to
exercise their control with a wholesome
discretion, the remedy is not to take it from
them, but to inform their discretion by
education." - Thomas Jeffersonhttp://GreaterVoice.org/extend-Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
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Dear The Trucker: The 'up-side' of paper is that it comes from trees
that also "eat" CO2.
You seem to misunderstand the word "trade". The trees still grow and eat
the CO2 as before. But instead of making paper we use the wood to make
cellulosic ethanol.
My bio-mass of choice is hemp. Such removes
several times more CO2 per acre than does a forest.
People always want to do hemp because it is controversial. I figgure you
for a leftie.
The best
immediate correction of our auto emissions problems is to use
optimized engine RPMs and loads to generate electricity for driving
the vehicle.
Nope. Biofuels fit into the current fleet of cars and allow the new fleet
of hybrids to come on line in due course.
Having engines run at varying speeds is hugely
inefficient.
There are fixes for the symptoms of global warming which can buy
time to develop fuel alternatives.
Yes... I have tried to name several of them and they are all currently
ready to roll biofuels that need a decent government initiative as opposed
to oil company Republican fascism.
Battery technology that uses toxic
metals isn't environmentally friendly. One very environmentally
efficient solution is to make higher quality, longer lasting
vehicles. The energy being used to make "the latest" model is adding
nearly as much CO2 to the air as the fuels we burn. "Less is more.",
but isn't necessarily a bad way to be living! -- NoEinstein --
The latest model should be a hybrid.
--
"I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers
of society but the people themselves; and
if we think them not enlightened enough to
exercise their control with a wholesome
discretion, the remedy is not to take it from
them, but to inform their discretion by
education." - Thomas Jeffersonhttp://GreaterVoice.org/extend- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
It's called the Opel Flextreme and is due to market by ~ 2012/2013.