England's Death Valley

[Phil Hobbs]

On 2020-03-29 19:36, Tom Gardner wrote:

On 29/03/20 22:55, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2020-03-29 17:30, Adrian Tuddenham wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-03-29 09:57, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2020-03-29 15:20, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Looking up the length of Great Britain, I discover that there's a
place
in Cambridgeshire called Holme Fen that is ten feet below sea level.

I get how that could happen in the desert, but in England???

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


It was drained using steam-driven pumps in 1851.

Jeroen Belleman

Yeah, but why does it stay dry?  Have they kept pumping for 170 years?

That is just a fleeting moment in England's long history.

In Somerset there are areas of land at, or just below, *average* sea
level.  The water is pumped into rhines (canals) slightly above the land
level and large lock gates are opened to empty it at low tide.  Then the
gates are closed to prevent the high tide flooding back.

It's just like deriving a negative supply from a sinewave centred on, or
just above, zero.


Ten feet is a long way for a tidal system.  BC and Nova Scotia get
tides like that, but most places don't.  Plus it depends on the phase
of the moon.

I see a 3.4m tidal range every day - or at least I
did before last week. Storm surges can add another
metre so that it flows over the top of lock gates
in the city center.

I also see the river suddenly get up to 2m deeper
(with surfers travelling upstream) and start
flowing backwards.

But that is on the other side of the country,
the River Severn.

The Severn has a tidal resonance like Fundy, doesn't it?

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Clifford Heath]

On 30/3/20 11:36 am, Phil Hobbs wrote:

On 2020-03-29 19:36, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 29/03/20 22:55, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2020-03-29 17:30, Adrian Tuddenham wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-03-29 09:57, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2020-03-29 15:20, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Looking up the length of Great Britain, I discover that there's a
place
in Cambridgeshire called Holme Fen that is ten feet below sea level.

I get how that could happen in the desert, but in England???

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


It was drained using steam-driven pumps in 1851.

Jeroen Belleman

Yeah, but why does it stay dry?  Have they kept pumping for 170 years?

That is just a fleeting moment in England's long history.

In Somerset there are areas of land at, or just below, *average* sea
level.  The water is pumped into rhines (canals) slightly above the
land
level and large lock gates are opened to empty it at low tide.  Then
the
gates are closed to prevent the high tide flooding back.

It's just like deriving a negative supply from a sinewave centred
on, or
just above, zero.


Ten feet is a long way for a tidal system.  BC and Nova Scotia get
tides like that, but most places don't.  Plus it depends on the phase
of the moon.

I see a 3.4m tidal range every day - or at least I
did before last week. Storm surges can add another
metre so that it flows over the top of lock gates
in the city center.

I also see the river suddenly get up to 2m deeper
(with surfers travelling upstream) and start
flowing backwards.

But that is on the other side of the country,
the River Severn.

The Severn has a tidal resonance like Fundy, doesn't it?

The ocean doesn't need to be resonant. Super high tides occur at the
"corners" of any ocean - like slop in the corner of a square bucket or
pool. The Severn feeds that tidal slop into a shock-line that sharpens
the pulse until it breaks - as happens in a few dozen places elsewhere
in the world.

Tides in the Buccaneer Archipelego (north-western Australia, opposite
Indonesia) regularly exceed 10m - slosh from the Indian ocean. There's
no funnel leading to a tidal bore there AFAIK. The biggest one is in China.

If it wasn't for these effects, tides would be exactly equal around the
world; about 1m following the moon adding to 0.5m following the sun.

CH

 

[Clifford Heath]

On 30/3/20 7:40 am, Jeroen Belleman wrote:

On 2020-03-29 21:15, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2020-03-29 09:57, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2020-03-29 15:20, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Looking up the length of Great Britain, I discover that there's a place
in Cambridgeshire called Holme Fen that is ten feet below sea level.

I get how that could happen in the desert, but in England???

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


It was drained using steam-driven pumps in 1851.

Jeroen Belleman

Yeah, but why does it stay dry?  Have they kept pumping for 170 years?
My back garden is a former pond bottom, so I think about such things. (I
have a deeply committed relationship with my storm drain--it's 12 inch
ID, and runs across the lot, under the street, and about 300 feet down
the street before it reaches the level of the municipal drain.)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


Well, yes, I suppose so. That's the way it's done in the
Netherlands. It doesn't take all that much. A few hundred
kilowatts can keep a huge area dry.

I visited one of the old windmills, and calculated its power output at
somewhere around 20kW. Quite a big structure, but probably not very
efficient. Its job was to lift water less than 10m into a drainage canal.

 

[Clifford Heath]

On 30/3/20 12:20 am, Phil Hobbs wrote:

Looking up the length of Great Britain, I discover that there's a place
in Cambridgeshire called Holme Fen that is ten feet below sea level.

I get how that could happen in the desert, but in England???

Lake Eyre covers 3668 square miles that are below sea level, down to 49'
(15m) below. It fills occasionally, when it has similar salinity to the
ocean.

The basin from which it fills covers 463,323 square miles, nearly twice
as big as Texas, or 70% the size of Alaska.

There have been sporadic proposals to dig a canal to the ocean to keep
it full, to support local flora and fauna - but I foresee big problems
with it becoming increasingly salty. 340km is a long canal to dig...

Clifford Heath.

 

[Rick C]

On Sunday, March 29, 2020 at 9:15:17 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:

On 30/3/20 12:20 am, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Looking up the length of Great Britain, I discover that there's a place
in Cambridgeshire called Holme Fen that is ten feet below sea level.

I get how that could happen in the desert, but in England???

Lake Eyre covers 3668 square miles that are below sea level, down to 49'
(15m) below. It fills occasionally, when it has similar salinity to the
ocean.

The basin from which it fills covers 463,323 square miles, nearly twice
as big as Texas, or 70% the size of Alaska.

There have been sporadic proposals to dig a canal to the ocean to keep
it full, to support local flora and fauna - but I foresee big problems
with it becoming increasingly salty. 340km is a long canal to dig...

Why would anyone think it was important to destroy the native environment of a given area??? The local flora and fauna have been living there for how long? Bringing in water would most likely upset the environment and change it irrevocably. Or is "local flora and fauna" a euphemism for the local citizens and their favorite watering holes?

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Monday, March 30, 2020 at 12:53:18 PM UTC+11, Rick C wrote:

On Sunday, March 29, 2020 at 9:15:17 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
On 30/3/20 12:20 am, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Looking up the length of Great Britain, I discover that there's a place
in Cambridgeshire called Holme Fen that is ten feet below sea level.

I get how that could happen in the desert, but in England???

Lake Eyre covers 3668 square miles that are below sea level, down to 49'
(15m) below. It fills occasionally, when it has similar salinity to the
ocean.

The basin from which it fills covers 463,323 square miles, nearly twice
as big as Texas, or 70% the size of Alaska.

There have been sporadic proposals to dig a canal to the ocean to keep
it full, to support local flora and fauna - but I foresee big problems
with it becoming increasingly salty. 340km is a long canal to dig...

Why would anyone think it was important to destroy the native environment of a given area??? The local flora and fauna have been living there for how long? Bringing in water would most likely upset the environment and change it irrevocably. Or is "local flora and fauna" a euphemism for the local citizens and their favorite watering holes?

Lake Eyre does fill up from time to time, and there's a lot more local flora and fauna around when it is close to full.

Digging the canal wouldn't "destroy" the local environment - just stabilise it at the wet end of the range.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Rick C]

On Sunday, March 29, 2020 at 10:26:56 PM UTC-4, Bill Sloman wrote:

On Monday, March 30, 2020 at 12:53:18 PM UTC+11, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, March 29, 2020 at 9:15:17 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:

There have been sporadic proposals to dig a canal to the ocean to keep
it full, to support local flora and fauna - but I foresee big problems
with it becoming increasingly salty. 340km is a long canal to dig...

Why would anyone think it was important to destroy the native environment of a given area??? The local flora and fauna have been living there for how long? Bringing in water would most likely upset the environment and change it irrevocably. Or is "local flora and fauna" a euphemism for the local citizens and their favorite watering holes?

Lake Eyre does fill up from time to time, and there's a lot more local flora and fauna around when it is close to full.

Digging the canal wouldn't "destroy" the local environment - just stabilise it at the wet end of the range.

That is incredibly naive. The local wildlife is adapted to those changes and lives best in those conditions. The dessert has plants that only bloom after a rare rain storm. If they would do better in a wetter clime, why would they only live in the dessert?

It's not nice to fool Mother Nature.

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Monday, March 30, 2020 at 1:07:55 AM UTC-4, Bill Sloman wrote:

On Monday, March 30, 2020 at 1:55:49 PM UTC+11, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, March 29, 2020 at 10:26:56 PM UTC-4, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Monday, March 30, 2020 at 12:53:18 PM UTC+11, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, March 29, 2020 at 9:15:17 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:

There have been sporadic proposals to dig a canal to the ocean to keep
it full, to support local flora and fauna - but I foresee big problems
with it becoming increasingly salty. 340km is a long canal to dig....

Why would anyone think it was important to destroy the native environment of a given area??? The local flora and fauna have been living there for how long? Bringing in water would most likely upset the environment and change it irrevocably. Or is "local flora and fauna" a euphemism for the local citizens and their favorite watering holes?

Lake Eyre does fill up from time to time, and there's a lot more local flora and fauna around when it is close to full.

Digging the canal wouldn't "destroy" the local environment - just stabilise it at the wet end of the range.

That is incredibly naive. The local wildlife is adapted to those changes and lives best in those conditions.

That is incredibly silly. The local wildlife has always been adapting to wetter and drier conditions. There's not a lot of it when Lake Eyre has dried out completely - even the organisms best adapted to living with very little water don't do very well then - but it recovers when there's more water about.

The desert has plants that only bloom after a rare rain storm. If they would do better in a wetter clime, why would they only live in the desert?

You only see them in the desert. When they bloom elsewhere, lots of other plants are blooming at the same time.

And Lake Eyre isn't exactly famous for it's wild flowers.

It's not nice to fool Mother Nature.

You can't fool Mother Nature - she's rhetorical trope, not an information processing device.

I'm not going to debate a topic you seem to be willfully ignorant of. There are many places on earth where there are unique species specifically adapted to the unique climate of that area. Those species often can't survive elsewhere either because they depend on something that is only found in that unique climate or they can't compete with other species that are better suited to the other climates but unlike the other species they can survive in the unique climate.

The alternating wet/dry conditions are exactly that sort of local climate that often has species specifically adapted to it and changing that climate would no longer allow those species to survive.

I'm sure you are aware of this. It sounds like something that is right up your alley and you can learn from watching any of a number of nature programs. I have no idea why you want to dispute the idea.

I also don't care. I made this final effort to be as clear as possible. Continue without me.

By the way, the Mojave desert is also not known for its wild flower, yet the Mojave aster only grows there and the other similar areas of the south west US. Not at all in wet climes.

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Monday, March 30, 2020 at 1:55:49 PM UTC+11, Rick C wrote:

On Sunday, March 29, 2020 at 10:26:56 PM UTC-4, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Monday, March 30, 2020 at 12:53:18 PM UTC+11, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, March 29, 2020 at 9:15:17 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:

There have been sporadic proposals to dig a canal to the ocean to keep
it full, to support local flora and fauna - but I foresee big problems
with it becoming increasingly salty. 340km is a long canal to dig....

Why would anyone think it was important to destroy the native environment of a given area??? The local flora and fauna have been living there for how long? Bringing in water would most likely upset the environment and change it irrevocably. Or is "local flora and fauna" a euphemism for the local citizens and their favorite watering holes?

Lake Eyre does fill up from time to time, and there's a lot more local flora and fauna around when it is close to full.

Digging the canal wouldn't "destroy" the local environment - just stabilise it at the wet end of the range.

That is incredibly naive. The local wildlife is adapted to those changes and lives best in those conditions.

That is incredibly silly. The local wildlife has always been adapting to wetter and drier conditions. There's not a lot of it when Lake Eyre has dried out completely - even the organisms best adapted to living with very little water don't do very well then - but it recovers when there's more water about.

> The desert has plants that only bloom after a rare rain storm. If they would do better in a wetter clime, why would they only live in the desert?

You only see them in the desert. When they bloom elsewhere, lots of other plants are blooming at the same time.

And Lake Eyre isn't exactly famous for it's wild flowers.

> It's not nice to fool Mother Nature.

You can't fool Mother Nature - she's rhetorical trope, not an information processing device.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[whit3rd]

On Sunday, March 29, 2020 at 2:56:06 PM UTC-7, Phil Hobbs wrote:

Ten feet is a long way for a tidal system. BC and Nova Scotia get tides
like that, but most places don't. Plus it depends on the phase of the moon.

Pumping-out, though, beats letting it evaporate and collect dissolved
impurities.

Parts of the old Salton Sea are heavily polluted (selenium, I hear) because
no outpumping is done; over-irrigation sucks the impurities back into
the groundwater. The rice fields in Texas contain a fair amount
of arsenic, the better rice now comes from California. I'm thinking
outpumping can be put to good uses in agricultural states. And, it gives
you a use for episodes of excess wind-power.

If you don't have an outlet, it ends up like the Dead Sea.

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 30/03/20 01:36, Phil Hobbs wrote:

On 2020-03-29 19:36, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 29/03/20 22:55, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2020-03-29 17:30, Adrian Tuddenham wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-03-29 09:57, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2020-03-29 15:20, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Looking up the length of Great Britain, I discover that there's a place
in Cambridgeshire called Holme Fen that is ten feet below sea level.

I get how that could happen in the desert, but in England???

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


It was drained using steam-driven pumps in 1851.

Jeroen Belleman

Yeah, but why does it stay dry?  Have they kept pumping for 170 years?

That is just a fleeting moment in England's long history.

In Somerset there are areas of land at, or just below, *average* sea
level.  The water is pumped into rhines (canals) slightly above the land
level and large lock gates are opened to empty it at low tide.  Then the
gates are closed to prevent the high tide flooding back.

It's just like deriving a negative supply from a sinewave centred on, or
just above, zero.


Ten feet is a long way for a tidal system.  BC and Nova Scotia get tides like
that, but most places don't.  Plus it depends on the phase of the moon.

I see a 3.4m tidal range every day - or at least I
did before last week. Storm surges can add another
metre so that it flows over the top of lock gates
in the city center.

I also see the river suddenly get up to 2m deeper
(with surfers travelling upstream) and start
flowing backwards.

But that is on the other side of the country,
the River Severn.

The Severn has a tidal resonance like Fundy, doesn't it?

The other local phenomenon is that Southampton gets
4 high/low tides a day, as the water goes up the
English Channel and around both sides of the Isle
of Wight.

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 30/03/20 01:36, Phil Hobbs wrote:

On 2020-03-29 19:36, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 29/03/20 22:55, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2020-03-29 17:30, Adrian Tuddenham wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-03-29 09:57, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2020-03-29 15:20, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Looking up the length of Great Britain, I discover that there's a place
in Cambridgeshire called Holme Fen that is ten feet below sea level.

I get how that could happen in the desert, but in England???

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


It was drained using steam-driven pumps in 1851.

Jeroen Belleman

Yeah, but why does it stay dry?  Have they kept pumping for 170 years?

That is just a fleeting moment in England's long history.

In Somerset there are areas of land at, or just below, *average* sea
level.  The water is pumped into rhines (canals) slightly above the land
level and large lock gates are opened to empty it at low tide.  Then the
gates are closed to prevent the high tide flooding back.

It's just like deriving a negative supply from a sinewave centred on, or
just above, zero.


Ten feet is a long way for a tidal system.  BC and Nova Scotia get tides like
that, but most places don't.  Plus it depends on the phase of the moon.

I see a 3.4m tidal range every day - or at least I
did before last week. Storm surges can add another
metre so that it flows over the top of lock gates
in the city center.

I also see the river suddenly get up to 2m deeper
(with surfers travelling upstream) and start
flowing backwards.

But that is on the other side of the country,
the River Severn.

The Severn has a tidal resonance like Fundy, doesn't it?

It has a tidal bore like Fundy; Fundy is the only higher
one I believe.

I'm not aware of any resonance effects. The bore is created
by the overall funnel shape. It is noticeably higher with
westerly winds an low pressure.

 

[Mike Coon]

In article <bcb0673e-bdee-d60d-c388-4f9f5cf0e7f6@electrooptical.net>,
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net says...

England is a famously rainy place that gets little sun. I'd expect it
to fill up with fresh water pretty fast.

Yes, the many people who got flooded out in central parts of England
this autumn and winter are not thanking the Covid-19 lockdown for
interfering with their recovery...

Mike.

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 30/03/20 10:01, Martin Brown wrote:

On 29/03/2020 20:15, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2020-03-29 09:57, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2020-03-29 15:20, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Looking up the length of Great Britain, I discover that there's a place
in Cambridgeshire called Holme Fen that is ten feet below sea level.

I get how that could happen in the desert, but in England???

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


It was drained using steam-driven pumps in 1851.

Jeroen Belleman

Yeah, but why does it stay dry?  Have they kept pumping for 170 years? My back
garden is a former pond bottom, so I think about such things. (I have a deeply
committed relationship with my storm drain--it's 12 inch ID, and runs across
the lot, under the street, and about 300 feet down the street before it
reaches the level of the municipal drain.)

Yes. Pretty much - there are even some original picturesque pump houses with big
steam beam engines that are now museums.

I used to enjoy wandering around Stretham Old Engine,
peering into the boilers and avoiding falling through
the gaps in the floor.
I doubt that is possible now,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stretham_Old_Engine

 

[Adrian Tuddenham]

Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-03-29 19:36, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 29/03/20 22:55, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2020-03-29 17:30, Adrian Tuddenham wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-03-29 09:57, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2020-03-29 15:20, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Looking up the length of Great Britain, I discover that there's a
place
in Cambridgeshire called Holme Fen that is ten feet below sea level.

I get how that could happen in the desert, but in England???

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


It was drained using steam-driven pumps in 1851.

Jeroen Belleman

Yeah, but why does it stay dry?  Have they kept pumping for 170 years?

That is just a fleeting moment in England's long history.

In Somerset there are areas of land at, or just below, *average* sea
level.  The water is pumped into rhines (canals) slightly above the land
level and large lock gates are opened to empty it at low tide.  Then the
gates are closed to prevent the high tide flooding back.

It's just like deriving a negative supply from a sinewave centred on, or
just above, zero.


Ten feet is a long way for a tidal system.  BC and Nova Scotia get
tides like that, but most places don't.  Plus it depends on the phase
of the moon.

I see a 3.4m tidal range every day - or at least I
did before last week. Storm surges can add another
metre so that it flows over the top of lock gates
in the city center.

I also see the river suddenly get up to 2m deeper
(with surfers travelling upstream) and start
flowing backwards.

But that is on the other side of the country,
the River Severn.

The Severn has a tidal resonance like Fundy, doesn't it?

The Severn Estuary is funnel-shaped (think of it as an acoustic horn).
As the tide travels up it, the "hydraulic impedance" (height/volume)
increases, so the height of the tide increases.

The Severn becomes very tortuous as it get narrower, so the energy is
dissipated in an ever-increasing terminating impedance and there is very
little reflection, so resonance is minimal.

If it weren't for the losses, the estuary would form a very effective
hydraulic transformer, converting the large-volume low tidal height
range into a smaller-volume large height range, which would be more
suited to a small but highly efficient electricity-generating barrage
scheme further upstream. The previous proposals have all been for
gigantic structures across the mouth of the estuary and huge turbines
for large volumes of water with a low head.

--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

 

[Martin Brown]

On 29/03/2020 20:15, Phil Hobbs wrote:

On 2020-03-29 09:57, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2020-03-29 15:20, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Looking up the length of Great Britain, I discover that there's a place
in Cambridgeshire called Holme Fen that is ten feet below sea level.

I get how that could happen in the desert, but in England???

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


It was drained using steam-driven pumps in 1851.

Jeroen Belleman

Yeah, but why does it stay dry?  Have they kept pumping for 170 years?
My back garden is a former pond bottom, so I think about such things. (I
have a deeply committed relationship with my storm drain--it's 12 inch
ID, and runs across the lot, under the street, and about 300 feet down
the street before it reaches the level of the municipal drain.)

Yes. Pretty much - there are even some original picturesque pump houses
with big steam beam engines that are now museums. Some areas have been
rewilded as fens providing habitat for Bitterns and other rare birds.

Most of it is very fertile and given over to growing grain.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Monday, March 30, 2020 at 4:42:20 PM UTC+11, Rick C wrote:

On Monday, March 30, 2020 at 1:07:55 AM UTC-4, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Monday, March 30, 2020 at 1:55:49 PM UTC+11, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, March 29, 2020 at 10:26:56 PM UTC-4, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Monday, March 30, 2020 at 12:53:18 PM UTC+11, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, March 29, 2020 at 9:15:17 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:

There have been sporadic proposals to dig a canal to the ocean to keep
it full, to support local flora and fauna - but I foresee big problems
with it becoming increasingly salty. 340km is a long canal to dig...

Why would anyone think it was important to destroy the native environment of a given area??? The local flora and fauna have been living there for how long? Bringing in water would most likely upset the environment and change it irrevocably. Or is "local flora and fauna" a euphemism for the local citizens and their favorite watering holes?

Lake Eyre does fill up from time to time, and there's a lot more local flora and fauna around when it is close to full.

Digging the canal wouldn't "destroy" the local environment - just stabilise it at the wet end of the range.

That is incredibly naive. The local wildlife is adapted to those changes and lives best in those conditions.

That is incredibly silly. The local wildlife has always been adapting to wetter and drier conditions. There's not a lot of it when Lake Eyre has dried out completely - even the organisms best adapted to living with very little water don't do very well then - but it recovers when there's more water about.

The desert has plants that only bloom after a rare rain storm. If they would do better in a wetter clime, why would they only live in the desert?

You only see them in the desert. When they bloom elsewhere, lots of other plants are blooming at the same time.

And Lake Eyre isn't exactly famous for it's wild flowers.

It's not nice to fool Mother Nature.

You can't fool Mother Nature - she's rhetorical trope, not an information processing device.

I'm not going to debate a topic you seem to be willfully ignorant of. There are many places on earth where there are unique species specifically adapted to the unique climate of that area.

And you think that Lake Eyre is one of them?

Those species often can't survive elsewhere either because they depend on something that is only found in that unique climate or they can't compete with other species that are better suited to the other climates but unlike the other species they can survive in the unique climate.

The alternating wet/dry conditions are exactly that sort of local climate that often has species specifically adapted to it and changing that climate would no longer allow those species to survive.

Lake Eyre doesn't do alternation, or anything as neatly regular as that.

> I'm sure you are aware of this. It sounds like something that is right up your alley and you can learn from watching any of a number of nature programs. I have no idea why you want to dispute the idea.

Because you seeing Lake Eyre as one more place that a nature program would feature. It's not that kind of place.

"In strong La Niña years, the lake can fill. Since 1885, this has occurred in 1886–1887, 1889–1890, 1916–1917, 1950, 1955, 1974–1977,[13] and 1999–2001,[14] with the highest flood of 6 m (20 ft) in 1974."

I also don't care. I made this final effort to be as clear as possible. Continue without me.

By the way, the Mojave desert is also not known for its wild flower, yet the Mojave aster only grows there and the other similar areas of the south west US. Not at all in wet climes.

So what.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[George Herold]

On Sunday, March 29, 2020 at 5:41:37 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:

On 2020-03-29 16:37, George Herold wrote:
On Sunday, March 29, 2020 at 3:15:31 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2020-03-29 09:57, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2020-03-29 15:20, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Looking up the length of Great Britain, I discover that there's
a place in Cambridgeshire called Holme Fen that is ten feet
below sea level.

I get how that could happen in the desert, but in England???

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


It was drained using steam-driven pumps in 1851.

Jeroen Belleman

Yeah, but why does it stay dry? Have they kept pumping for 170
years? My back garden is a former pond bottom, so I think about
such things. (I have a deeply committed relationship with my storm
drain--it's 12 inch ID, and runs across the lot, under the street,
and about 300 feet down the street before it reaches the level of
the municipal drain.)


Maybe they built clay walls around it to keep the water out. The
opposite of a pond? It also depends on where the water table is.
(ground water level.)

England is a famously rainy place that gets little sun. I'd expect it
to fill up with fresh water pretty fast.

Fair enough. I live down hill from ~100 acres of farm land.
I mostly think about diverting the run-off to keep some part 'dry'.
But it doesn't really do that much... the soil is mostly clays,
and if you dig a hole anywhere*.. it fills up with water in no
time.

George H.
*well except for a couple of 'sand hills' that I think are left over from
the last glacier.

I need to do some 'hydraulic engineering' on my gravel driveway. The
'upstream' trench needs to be dug out. I've got an old tired backhoe
and as long as I take it easy it should be a fun job.

Does your storm drain clog? 12" ID sounds big! I've got a number of
~4" drain pipes under my drive way. And this ~2" diameter thick
walled plastic tube. That a jam into the exit and entrance holes if/
when a pipe clogs.

It needs to be big. In Hurricane Floyd we had eight feet of water
sitting over the drain.


They also make these cool water powered (from a garden hose) balloon
expanding things that you can send down smaller pipes and blow 'em
out with water. The end of the hose is a nozzle and then the
expanding part, at full water pressure the balloon expands and wedges
into the walls of the pipe. As the nozzle is spraying water into the
obstruction.

We've had the roto rooter guy check it out a couple of times, but it's
been fine for 60 years so far.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
(second-longest tenure on his block--30 years this coming December)


--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 2020-03-30 04:25, Tom Gardner wrote:

On 30/03/20 01:36, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2020-03-29 19:36, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 29/03/20 22:55, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2020-03-29 17:30, Adrian Tuddenham wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-03-29 09:57, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2020-03-29 15:20, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Looking up the length of Great Britain, I discover that there's
a place
in Cambridgeshire called Holme Fen that is ten feet below sea
level.

I get how that could happen in the desert, but in England???

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


It was drained using steam-driven pumps in 1851.

Jeroen Belleman

Yeah, but why does it stay dry?  Have they kept pumping for 170
years?

That is just a fleeting moment in England's long history.

In Somerset there are areas of land at, or just below, *average* sea
level.  The water is pumped into rhines (canals) slightly above the
land
level and large lock gates are opened to empty it at low tide.
Then the
gates are closed to prevent the high tide flooding back.

It's just like deriving a negative supply from a sinewave centred
on, or
just above, zero.


Ten feet is a long way for a tidal system.  BC and Nova Scotia get
tides like that, but most places don't.  Plus it depends on the
phase of the moon.

I see a 3.4m tidal range every day - or at least I
did before last week. Storm surges can add another
metre so that it flows over the top of lock gates
in the city center.

I also see the river suddenly get up to 2m deeper
(with surfers travelling upstream) and start
flowing backwards.

But that is on the other side of the country,
the River Severn.

The Severn has a tidal resonance like Fundy, doesn't it?

The other local phenomenon is that Southampton gets
4 high/low tides a day, as the water goes up the
English Channel and around both sides of the Isle
of Wight.

Was Chebyshev from Southampton?

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

(Opportunities to make numerical analysis jokes don't come round that
often.)

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 12:00:21 PM UTC+11, Phil Hobbs wrote:

On 2020-03-30 04:25, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 30/03/20 01:36, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2020-03-29 19:36, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 29/03/20 22:55, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2020-03-29 17:30, Adrian Tuddenham wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-03-29 09:57, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2020-03-29 15:20, Phil Hobbs wrote:

<snip>

The Severn has a tidal resonance like Fundy, doesn't it?

The other local phenomenon is that Southampton gets
4 high/low tides a day, as the water goes up the
English Channel and around both sides of the Isle
of Wight.


Was Chebyshev from Southampton?

I do know one Russian mathematician who lives in England, but Chebyshev never did.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pafnuty_Chebyshev

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney