England's Death Valley

[Phil Hobbs]

Looking up the length of Great Britain, I discover that there's a place
in Cambridgeshire called Holme Fen that is ten feet below sea level.

I get how that could happen in the desert, but in England???

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Mike Coon]

In article <60937530-1ca3-e70c-97b7-f3cc753bd940@electrooptical.net>,
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net says...

Looking up the length of Great Britain, I discover that there's a place
in Cambridgeshire called Holme Fen that is ten feet below sea level.

I get how that could happen in the desert, but in England???

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

We've been doing hydraulic engineering for hundreds of years. I think we
have imported expertise from The Netherlands, where they depend heavily
on it...

Mike.

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 29/03/20 14:20, Phil Hobbs wrote:

Looking up the length of Great Britain, I discover that there's a place in
Cambridgeshire called Holme Fen that is ten feet below sea level.

I get how that could happen in the desert, but in England???

The fenland peat has shrunk over the centuries, as it dried
out. There's the famous cast iron pole at Holme Fen
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2529365.stm

There are many places in the fens where the river is higher
than the surrounding countryside.[1]

Between Earith and Downham Market there are two straight
parallel waterways (the Old and New Bedford rivers a.k.a.
the Hundred Foot Drain) about 500m apart and 25 miles long.
The sluices at Downham Market are closed at high tide, and
the area between the rivers floods until low tide.

The latter diurnal flooding techniques are also used on the
Somerset Levels.

[1]
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.5115556,0.2604779,3a,75y,231.97h,67.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sPSA4Uui0ezgk9u40pcPE5w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in
news:r5q9gf$o83$1@gioia.aioe.org:

On 2020-03-29 15:20, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Looking up the length of Great Britain, I discover that there's a
place in Cambridgeshire called Holme Fen that is ten feet below
sea level.

I get how that could happen in the desert, but in England???

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


It was drained using steam-driven pumps in 1851.

Jeroen Belleman

Then they filled it back with an even worse, more sinister fluid...
humans.

 

[Jeroen Belleman]

On 2020-03-29 15:20, Phil Hobbs wrote:

Looking up the length of Great Britain, I discover that there's a place
in Cambridgeshire called Holme Fen that is ten feet below sea level.

I get how that could happen in the desert, but in England???

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

It was drained using steam-driven pumps in 1851.

Jeroen Belleman

 

On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 09:20:54 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

Looking up the length of Great Britain, I discover that there's a place
in Cambridgeshire called Holme Fen that is ten feet below sea level.

I get how that could happen in the desert, but in England???

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

A good Lord Peter mystery is The Nine Tailors, centered around a great
flood in the English lowlands.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard

 

On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 15:18:19 +0100, Tom Gardner
<spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 29/03/20 14:20, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Looking up the length of Great Britain, I discover that there's a place in
Cambridgeshire called Holme Fen that is ten feet below sea level.

I get how that could happen in the desert, but in England???

The fenland peat has shrunk over the centuries, as it dried
out. There's the famous cast iron pole at Holme Fen
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2529365.stm

There are many places in the fens where the river is higher
than the surrounding countryside.[1]

I grew up three blocks from the Mississippi river. We used to look up
at ships on the other side of the levee.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 2020-03-29 11:46, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 09:20:54 -0400, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

Looking up the length of Great Britain, I discover that there's a place
in Cambridgeshire called Holme Fen that is ten feet below sea level.

I get how that could happen in the desert, but in England???

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

A good Lord Peter mystery is The Nine Tailors, centered around a great
flood in the English lowlands.

I saw the BBC version when I was a kid--that's the one about pretty Mrs
Grimthorpe and her sinister husband, right?

I'm not a big novel person these days except for mythopoeia. The most
recent work of fiction I read was "Wonder Tales" by Edward John Moreton
Drax Plunkett, 18th Baron Dunsany. (I'm not sure whether the
bluebloods' names are copied from the prize pigs, or vice versa--he sure
could write though.)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 14:59:29 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-03-29 11:46, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 09:20:54 -0400, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

Looking up the length of Great Britain, I discover that there's a place
in Cambridgeshire called Holme Fen that is ten feet below sea level.

I get how that could happen in the desert, but in England???

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

A good Lord Peter mystery is The Nine Tailors, centered around a great
flood in the English lowlands.




I saw the BBC version when I was a kid--that's the one about pretty Mrs
Grimthorpe and her sinister husband, right?

No, that one is Clouds of Witness, where Wimsey's dim brother stands
trial for murder in the House of Lords.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 2020-03-29 09:57, Jeroen Belleman wrote:

On 2020-03-29 15:20, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Looking up the length of Great Britain, I discover that there's a place
in Cambridgeshire called Holme Fen that is ten feet below sea level.

I get how that could happen in the desert, but in England???

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


It was drained using steam-driven pumps in 1851.

Jeroen Belleman

Yeah, but why does it stay dry? Have they kept pumping for 170 years?
My back garden is a former pond bottom, so I think about such things.
(I have a deeply committed relationship with my storm drain--it's 12
inch ID, and runs across the lot, under the street, and about 300 feet
down the street before it reaches the level of the municipal drain.)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 2020-03-29 15:11, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 14:59:29 -0400, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-03-29 11:46, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 09:20:54 -0400, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

Looking up the length of Great Britain, I discover that there's a place
in Cambridgeshire called Holme Fen that is ten feet below sea level.

I get how that could happen in the desert, but in England???

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

A good Lord Peter mystery is The Nine Tailors, centered around a great
flood in the English lowlands.




I saw the BBC version when I was a kid--that's the one about pretty Mrs
Grimthorpe and her sinister husband, right?

No, that one is Clouds of Witness, where Wimsey's dim brother stands
trial for murder in the House of Lords.

Ah, OK. I was confused by the fact that the Grimthorpes lived in the
middle of the fen.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[George Herold]

On Sunday, March 29, 2020 at 3:15:31 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:

On 2020-03-29 09:57, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2020-03-29 15:20, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Looking up the length of Great Britain, I discover that there's a place
in Cambridgeshire called Holme Fen that is ten feet below sea level.

I get how that could happen in the desert, but in England???

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


It was drained using steam-driven pumps in 1851.

Jeroen Belleman

Yeah, but why does it stay dry? Have they kept pumping for 170 years?
My back garden is a former pond bottom, so I think about such things.
(I have a deeply committed relationship with my storm drain--it's 12
inch ID, and runs across the lot, under the street, and about 300 feet
down the street before it reaches the level of the municipal drain.)

Maybe they built clay walls around it to keep the water out.
The opposite of a pond?
It also depends on where the water table is. (ground water level.)

I need to do some 'hydraulic engineering' on my gravel driveway.
The 'upstream' trench needs to be dug out.
I've got an old tired backhoe and as long as I take it easy
it should be a fun job.

Does your storm drain clog? 12" ID sounds big!
I've got a number of ~4" drain pipes under my drive way.
And this ~2" diameter thick walled plastic tube.
That a jam into the exit and entrance holes if/ when
a pipe clogs.

They also make these cool water powered (from a garden hose)
balloon expanding things that you can send down smaller pipes
and blow 'em out with water. The end of the hose is a nozzle and
then the expanding part, at full water pressure the balloon expands
and wedges into the walls of the pipe. As the nozzle is spraying
water into the obstruction.

George H.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Jeroen Belleman]

On 2020-03-29 21:15, Phil Hobbs wrote:

On 2020-03-29 09:57, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2020-03-29 15:20, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Looking up the length of Great Britain, I discover that there's a place
in Cambridgeshire called Holme Fen that is ten feet below sea level.

I get how that could happen in the desert, but in England???

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


It was drained using steam-driven pumps in 1851.

Jeroen Belleman

Yeah, but why does it stay dry? Have they kept pumping for 170 years?
My back garden is a former pond bottom, so I think about such things. (I
have a deeply committed relationship with my storm drain--it's 12 inch
ID, and runs across the lot, under the street, and about 300 feet down
the street before it reaches the level of the municipal drain.)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Well, yes, I suppose so. That's the way it's done in the
Netherlands. It doesn't take all that much. A few hundred
kilowatts can keep a huge area dry.

Jeroen Belleman

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 2020-03-29 16:37, George Herold wrote:

On Sunday, March 29, 2020 at 3:15:31 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2020-03-29 09:57, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2020-03-29 15:20, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Looking up the length of Great Britain, I discover that there's
a place in Cambridgeshire called Holme Fen that is ten feet
below sea level.

I get how that could happen in the desert, but in England???

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


It was drained using steam-driven pumps in 1851.

Jeroen Belleman

Yeah, but why does it stay dry? Have they kept pumping for 170
years? My back garden is a former pond bottom, so I think about
such things. (I have a deeply committed relationship with my storm
drain--it's 12 inch ID, and runs across the lot, under the street,
and about 300 feet down the street before it reaches the level of
the municipal drain.)


Maybe they built clay walls around it to keep the water out. The
opposite of a pond? It also depends on where the water table is.
(ground water level.)

England is a famously rainy place that gets little sun. I'd expect it
to fill up with fresh water pretty fast.

I need to do some 'hydraulic engineering' on my gravel driveway. The
'upstream' trench needs to be dug out. I've got an old tired backhoe
and as long as I take it easy it should be a fun job.

Does your storm drain clog? 12" ID sounds big! I've got a number of
~4" drain pipes under my drive way. And this ~2" diameter thick
walled plastic tube. That a jam into the exit and entrance holes if/
when a pipe clogs.

It needs to be big. In Hurricane Floyd we had eight feet of water
sitting over the drain.

They also make these cool water powered (from a garden hose) balloon
expanding things that you can send down smaller pipes and blow 'em
out with water. The end of the hose is a nozzle and then the
expanding part, at full water pressure the balloon expands and wedges
into the walls of the pipe. As the nozzle is spraying water into the
obstruction.

We've had the roto rooter guy check it out a couple of times, but it's
been fine for 60 years so far.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
(second-longest tenure on his block--30 years this coming December)


--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Adrian Tuddenham]

Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-03-29 09:57, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2020-03-29 15:20, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Looking up the length of Great Britain, I discover that there's a place
in Cambridgeshire called Holme Fen that is ten feet below sea level.

I get how that could happen in the desert, but in England???

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


It was drained using steam-driven pumps in 1851.

Jeroen Belleman

Yeah, but why does it stay dry? Have they kept pumping for 170 years?

That is just a fleeting moment in England's long history.

In Somerset there are areas of land at, or just below, *average* sea
level. The water is pumped into rhines (canals) slightly above the land
level and large lock gates are opened to empty it at low tide. Then the
gates are closed to prevent the high tide flooding back.

It's just like deriving a negative supply from a sinewave centred on, or
just above, zero.


--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

 

[Rick C]

On Sunday, March 29, 2020 at 4:37:25 PM UTC-4, George Herold wrote:

On Sunday, March 29, 2020 at 3:15:31 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2020-03-29 09:57, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2020-03-29 15:20, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Looking up the length of Great Britain, I discover that there's a place
in Cambridgeshire called Holme Fen that is ten feet below sea level.

I get how that could happen in the desert, but in England???

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


It was drained using steam-driven pumps in 1851.

Jeroen Belleman

Yeah, but why does it stay dry? Have they kept pumping for 170 years?
My back garden is a former pond bottom, so I think about such things.
(I have a deeply committed relationship with my storm drain--it's 12
inch ID, and runs across the lot, under the street, and about 300 feet
down the street before it reaches the level of the municipal drain.)


Maybe they built clay walls around it to keep the water out.
The opposite of a pond?
It also depends on where the water table is. (ground water level.)

Huh? What??? Is there no rain in Great Britain?

I had that conversation with someone in a newsgroup once. Seems in Netherlands they have a great deal of land reclaimed from the sea. Yes, they have to have dikes to keep out the sea, but they also have large ponds to catch the rain water and pumps to pump it into canals leading to the sea.

If Holme Fen is not near the sea I suppose they can pump the water into a river.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 2020-03-29 17:30, Adrian Tuddenham wrote:

Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-03-29 09:57, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2020-03-29 15:20, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Looking up the length of Great Britain, I discover that there's a place
in Cambridgeshire called Holme Fen that is ten feet below sea level.

I get how that could happen in the desert, but in England???

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


It was drained using steam-driven pumps in 1851.

Jeroen Belleman

Yeah, but why does it stay dry? Have they kept pumping for 170 years?

That is just a fleeting moment in England's long history.

In Somerset there are areas of land at, or just below, *average* sea
level. The water is pumped into rhines (canals) slightly above the land
level and large lock gates are opened to empty it at low tide. Then the
gates are closed to prevent the high tide flooding back.

It's just like deriving a negative supply from a sinewave centred on, or
just above, zero.

Ten feet is a long way for a tidal system. BC and Nova Scotia get tides
like that, but most places don't. Plus it depends on the phase of the moon.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 29/03/20 22:55, Phil Hobbs wrote:

On 2020-03-29 17:30, Adrian Tuddenham wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-03-29 09:57, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2020-03-29 15:20, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Looking up the length of Great Britain, I discover that there's a place
in Cambridgeshire called Holme Fen that is ten feet below sea level.

I get how that could happen in the desert, but in England???

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


It was drained using steam-driven pumps in 1851.

Jeroen Belleman

Yeah, but why does it stay dry?  Have they kept pumping for 170 years?

That is just a fleeting moment in England's long history.

In Somerset there are areas of land at, or just below, *average* sea
level.  The water is pumped into rhines (canals) slightly above the land
level and large lock gates are opened to empty it at low tide.  Then the
gates are closed to prevent the high tide flooding back.

It's just like deriving a negative supply from a sinewave centred on, or
just above, zero.


Ten feet is a long way for a tidal system.  BC and Nova Scotia get tides like
that, but most places don't.  Plus it depends on the phase of the moon.

I see a 3.4m tidal range every day - or at least I
did before last week. Storm surges can add another
metre so that it flows over the top of lock gates
in the city center.

I also see the river suddenly get up to 2m deeper
(with surfers travelling upstream) and start
flowing backwards.

But that is on the other side of the country,
the River Severn.

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Monday, March 30, 2020 at 12:21:00 AM UTC+11, Phil Hobbs wrote:

Looking up the length of Great Britain, I discover that there's a place
in Cambridgeshire called Holme Fen that is ten feet below sea level.

I get how that could happen in the desert, but in England???

If you drain swamps - fens in East Anglia - they dirt underneath dries out and contracts, and the surface drops.

The Dutch have been it for a few thousand years now, and that is why a lot of the Netherlands is below sea level. They came over to Eng;and and did the same job in East Anglia a few hundred years ago.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Monday, March 30, 2020 at 12:57:42 AM UTC+11, Jeroen Belleman wrote:

On 2020-03-29 15:20, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Looking up the length of Great Britain, I discover that there's a place
in Cambridgeshire called Holme Fen that is ten feet below sea level.

I get how that could happen in the desert, but in England???

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


It was drained using steam-driven pumps in 1851.

Before that they used windmills, exactly as the Dutch used to do.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney