Energy savings, do you care?...

[Don Y]

On 8/4/2020 2:14 PM, Ricketty C wrote:

On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 3:34:41 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 8/4/2020 12:31 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 7:45:46 AM UTC-4, Klaus Kragelund wrote:

That said, the pump should not fail anyhow, so it\'s kind of an
academic discussion

What you are calling the \"pump\", is that what we would call a \"fan\"? I
guess I\'m more used to the term \"fan\" or \"compressor\" for gases and
\"pump\" for liquid.

No. Think of oil-fired hot water heat. The circulating pump(s) move the
heated water from the boiler\'s water jacket throughout their respective
zones. Otherwise, the boiler gets hot and the heat has no place to go!

Not so many use hot water in the US. Mostly newer houses use forced air.
By newer I mean in the last 60 years.

That doesn\'t mean all of the houses that DID use hot water (radiant
flooring, baseboard, etc.) suddenly \"went away\".

 

[Tabby]

On Tuesday, 4 August 2020 12:43:32 UTC+1, Pimpom wrote:

On 8/4/2020 1:08 PM, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house, or several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of using 30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes 25W for the same pump performance? (that would correlate to a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback period of less than 4 years?


Personally, I wouldn\'t bother for such a small long-term saving.
Besides, there\'s no way of telling how long either pump will last
and anything could happen during those 4 years.

When my nephew wanted to buy a new car a few years ago, he was
considering going for a diesel version of the same basic model to
save on fuel costs. He changed his mind after I calculated that
it would take about 10 years to cover the 25% difference in
initial cost. That was then. Now diesel prices are almost the
same as that of petrol.

but they do better mpg & you can put various other junk in the fuel tank (in most diesels) eg filtered used oils.


NT

 

[Tabby]

On Tuesday, 4 August 2020 12:49:52 UTC+1, Klaus Kragelund wrote:

On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 11:21:20 AM UTC+2, Michael Kellett wrote:

I was once involved in trying to persuade a supermarket chain to replace
power supplies fitted to about 20k checkout tills. (I did the
measuring), they would have saved about 3W per till = approx 50k per
year, and it would have cost them about £200k, but they didn\'t do it.


That would make good sense to do, but again maybe a difficult sell to the client, payback of less than 4-5 years is preferable. You need to take Net Present Value into account. If he invested 200k, could he have profit of 20% per year? Most companies used an interest of 10%, so your case would then be more like a payback of 7-8 years

I don\'t blame them for saying no. So many claimed savings are unrealistic.


NT

 

[Joerg]

On 2020-08-04 00:38, Klaus Kragelund wrote:

Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house, or several
depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of using
30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes 25W for the
same pump performance? (that would correlate to a electricity savings
of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback period of
less than 4 years?

Yes, but ... in the US circulation pumps are not popular or sometimes
turned off. This has a simple reason and mostly in left-leaning states
where electricity and gas are expensive. Having to run out some cold
water before it gets warm does waste water but that is often more than
an order of magnitude cheaper that the energy used by a recirculating
system. Not so much the electricity for the pump but the loss of thermal
energy in the water going round and round. In our case it\'s propane
which is prohibitively expensive so we would never consider recirculation.

Also, would a IOT connected pump be a sales parameter? (say it breaks
down, you can get a email notification, so you avoid a cold house or
other nuisance)

Nope, not really. IoT is popular in industry where it makes a lot of
sense. I designed some stuff in that area. For homes people are largely
disappointed. Costs a lot, doesn\'t do that much, and then one sunny day
the cloud goes permanently blank ... poof ... game is over. This is how
I got a brand new little NAS for $7.50. Their cloud vanished. Of course,
I had to hack it which was part of the fun.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

 

[Tabby]

On Tuesday, 4 August 2020 14:47:26 UTC+1, Phil Hobbs wrote:

On 2020-08-04 09:36, Martin Brown wrote:

My pumps are controlled by the thermostat--one pump per zone.  They
don\'t run at all for five months of the year.

You should run them for a few minutes a week in summer or they tend to
seize up with rusting (at least they do in the UK). I made that mistake
in summer the first year now I let it run briefly on a daily basis.


Never had an issue with that. Is it the pump or the armature that
causes problems?

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

bearings. IIRC, and I might not, they use water as a lube between ceramic bearing surfaces.

One can often get a stuck circulation pump going again. Undo the central nut-cover-bleed-point & turn the shaft a bit, then run it briefly with the nut loose & it grinds any gunk out. Do nut up & it\'s often happy again.


NT

 

[Ricketty C]

On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 5:46:50 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:

On 8/4/2020 2:14 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 3:34:41 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 8/4/2020 12:31 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 7:45:46 AM UTC-4, Klaus Kragelund wrote:

That said, the pump should not fail anyhow, so it\'s kind of an
academic discussion

What you are calling the \"pump\", is that what we would call a \"fan\"? I
guess I\'m more used to the term \"fan\" or \"compressor\" for gases and
\"pump\" for liquid.

No. Think of oil-fired hot water heat. The circulating pump(s) move the
heated water from the boiler\'s water jacket throughout their respective
zones. Otherwise, the boiler gets hot and the heat has no place to go!

Not so many use hot water in the US. Mostly newer houses use forced air.
By newer I mean in the last 60 years.

That doesn\'t mean all of the houses that DID use hot water (radiant
flooring, baseboard, etc.) suddenly \"went away\".

No, but they do tend to go away slowly or get converted to something other than recirculating water. A friend had a steam heat system which crapped out and converted to the convector units in multiple rooms. Kind of goofy in reality. The first system sucked and didn\'t keep a temperature. The factory people could not fix it, so they ripped it out again. A second system from another company worked better. The people who bought the house ripped out the radiators and got back the floor space.

Yeah, those radiators were huge! It\'s something you don\'t think about once you get used to it, but after removing them it\'s like getting out of a cast.

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Don Y]

On 8/4/2020 3:17 PM, Joerg wrote:

On 2020-08-04 00:38, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Also, would a IOT connected pump be a sales parameter? (say it breaks
down, you can get a email notification, so you avoid a cold house or
other nuisance)

Nope, not really. IoT is popular in industry where it makes a lot of sense. I
designed some stuff in that area. For homes people are largely disappointed.
Costs a lot, doesn\'t do that much, and then one sunny day the cloud goes
permanently blank ... poof ... game is over.

Exactly. At ~$200/device, how much is the average homeowner going to
drop into technology?

And, when devices can\'t really talk to each other (in any meaningful
way), what advantage does a device offer -- beyond \"remote access\"?

[\"Oooo... I can see who is at my front door while I am 1,000 miles
away! *If* I am willing to be bothered by yet-another-alert
delivered to my phone!\"]

Finally, they don\'t give the user any real value that couldn\'t
be made available WITHOUT that \"feature\".

[I rescued a Nest thermostat and let it run for a month -- but
without network access. It did a worse job regulating the
house\'s temperature than a \"dumb\" smart thermostat (i.e., forget
the \"learning\" ability... just acting as a bang-bang controller)!

But, it makes an ideal UX -- just don\'t let it DO anything!]

 

[Don Y]

On 8/4/2020 3:50 PM, Ricketty C wrote:

On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 5:46:50 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 8/4/2020 2:14 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 3:34:41 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 8/4/2020 12:31 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 7:45:46 AM UTC-4, Klaus Kragelund wrote:

That said, the pump should not fail anyhow, so it\'s kind of an
academic discussion

What you are calling the \"pump\", is that what we would call a \"fan\"? I
guess I\'m more used to the term \"fan\" or \"compressor\" for gases and
\"pump\" for liquid.

No. Think of oil-fired hot water heat. The circulating pump(s) move the
heated water from the boiler\'s water jacket throughout their respective
zones. Otherwise, the boiler gets hot and the heat has no place to go!

Not so many use hot water in the US. Mostly newer houses use forced air.
By newer I mean in the last 60 years.

That doesn\'t mean all of the houses that DID use hot water (radiant
flooring, baseboard, etc.) suddenly \"went away\".

No, but they do tend to go away slowly or get converted to something other than recirculating water.

Most of the people that I grew up with (New England) still rely on oil-fired
water (baseboard) heat. \"Central air\" is not common -- window units when
needed. And, boilers tend to last a long time.

Adding ductwork to an existing home is a significant labor cost (as well
as being largely disruptive during installation) in order to support
GFA, etc.

OTOH, here (Southwest), folks replace central air conditioners every decade
to decade-and-a-half. This typically results in the entire plant being
replaced (as contractors downplay the added cost of a *new* furnace
when you\'re looking at a new compressor plus A-coil plus labor) pretty
regularly.

[And, if you are reliant on HVAC \"professionals\" for maintenance, you
are subtly prodded to think about replacement earlier than might
otherwise be necessary: \"You don\'t want to *risk* having your AC
fail during the cooling season, do you??\"]

 

[Ricketty C]

On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 7:10:49 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:

On 8/4/2020 3:50 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 5:46:50 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 8/4/2020 2:14 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 3:34:41 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 8/4/2020 12:31 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 7:45:46 AM UTC-4, Klaus Kragelund wrote:

That said, the pump should not fail anyhow, so it\'s kind of an
academic discussion

What you are calling the \"pump\", is that what we would call a \"fan\"? I
guess I\'m more used to the term \"fan\" or \"compressor\" for gases and
\"pump\" for liquid.

No. Think of oil-fired hot water heat. The circulating pump(s) move the
heated water from the boiler\'s water jacket throughout their respective
zones. Otherwise, the boiler gets hot and the heat has no place to go!

Not so many use hot water in the US. Mostly newer houses use forced air.
By newer I mean in the last 60 years.

That doesn\'t mean all of the houses that DID use hot water (radiant
flooring, baseboard, etc.) suddenly \"went away\".

No, but they do tend to go away slowly or get converted to something other than recirculating water.

Most of the people that I grew up with (New England) still rely on oil-fired
water (baseboard) heat. \"Central air\" is not common -- window units when
needed. And, boilers tend to last a long time.

Adding ductwork to an existing home is a significant labor cost (as well
as being largely disruptive during installation) in order to support
GFA, etc.

OTOH, here (Southwest), folks replace central air conditioners every decade
to decade-and-a-half. This typically results in the entire plant being
replaced (as contractors downplay the added cost of a *new* furnace
when you\'re looking at a new compressor plus A-coil plus labor) pretty
regularly.

[And, if you are reliant on HVAC \"professionals\" for maintenance, you
are subtly prodded to think about replacement earlier than might
otherwise be necessary: \"You don\'t want to *risk* having your AC
fail during the cooling season, do you??\"]

Every other solution was cheaper than replacing the 80 year old boiler including the pipes in the basement cement. There is a reason why no one installs hot water or steam heat anymore.

Not sure what your point is.

--

Rick C.

+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Don Y]

On 8/4/2020 4:16 PM, Ricketty C wrote:

On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 7:10:49 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 8/4/2020 3:50 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 5:46:50 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 8/4/2020 2:14 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 3:34:41 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 8/4/2020 12:31 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 7:45:46 AM UTC-4, Klaus Kragelund
wrote:

That said, the pump should not fail anyhow, so it\'s kind of
an academic discussion

What you are calling the \"pump\", is that what we would call a
\"fan\"? I guess I\'m more used to the term \"fan\" or \"compressor\"
for gases and \"pump\" for liquid.

No. Think of oil-fired hot water heat. The circulating pump(s)
move the heated water from the boiler\'s water jacket throughout
their respective zones. Otherwise, the boiler gets hot and the
heat has no place to go!

Not so many use hot water in the US. Mostly newer houses use forced
air. By newer I mean in the last 60 years.

That doesn\'t mean all of the houses that DID use hot water (radiant
flooring, baseboard, etc.) suddenly \"went away\".

No, but they do tend to go away slowly or get converted to something
other than recirculating water.

Most of the people that I grew up with (New England) still rely on
oil-fired water (baseboard) heat. \"Central air\" is not common -- window
units when needed. And, boilers tend to last a long time.

Adding ductwork to an existing home is a significant labor cost (as well
as being largely disruptive during installation) in order to support GFA,
etc.

OTOH, here (Southwest), folks replace central air conditioners every
decade to decade-and-a-half. This typically results in the entire plant
being replaced (as contractors downplay the added cost of a *new* furnace
when you\'re looking at a new compressor plus A-coil plus labor) pretty
regularly.

[And, if you are reliant on HVAC \"professionals\" for maintenance, you are
subtly prodded to think about replacement earlier than might otherwise be
necessary: \"You don\'t want to *risk* having your AC fail during the
cooling season, do you??\"]

Every other solution was cheaper than replacing the 80 year old boiler
including the pipes in the basement cement. There is a reason why no one
installs hot water or steam heat anymore.

Replacing HVAC systems in the Southwest is a common occurrence. You figure
on dropping $8-10K on a new one every 10-15-20 years. The new kit slides
into the space occupied by the old and makes the same connections as the old.

Replacing HVAC systems in New England is still done with the original
legacy installation in mind (else the folks I know back there would
all have updated to GFA by now). Note that Home Depot lists several
\"oil-fired boilers\" available today for ~$2-3K. No need to pull out
the baseboard radiators, dispose of the old oil tank, pay the gas company
for a hookup (excavating your yard and the roadway) and route ductwork
throughout your attic/basement (plus chop holes in walls for ducts).

Steam only makes sense in multidwelling units (older apartment houses)
where a single boiler can be shared among multiple units. In such places,
retrofitting hot water or GFA is even MORE costly. \"Electric\" would
be the more likely route.

> Not sure what your point is.

You appeared ignorant of the issue Klaus was raising:

\"What you are calling the \'pump\', is that what we would call a \'fan\'?
I guess I\'m more used to the term \'fan\' or \'compressor\' for gases and
\'pump\' for liquid. \"

Clearly others (e.g, PHobbs) have experience with circulating *pumps*
in 2020. So Klaus\'s comment regarding energy tradeoffs in replacing
a pump (likely in 2020!) are pertinent.

Why didn\'t you lobby him to \"switch to gas\"? :>

[It might be amusing to hear what the costs of doing so in his
part of the world are!]

 

[bitrex]

On 8/4/2020 5:11 PM, Ricketty C wrote:

On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 2:47:18 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 8/4/2020 11:09 AM, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2020-08-04 10:52, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

Electric cars have problems in the cold too, which is why I don\'t see
Teslas parked at ski areas. A gas car is remarkably good about this
sort of thing.

Yup, especially ones with smart fuel injection.  (That is, everything
since about 1989.)  IIRC SU carburetors are pretty good in cold weather
too--they work at constant vacuum rather than a fixed orifice.

Run my Chevy Volt on battery power when it gets down to -10F sometimes
in New England, it\'s always come right up with no problem. What
\"problems\" he\'s speaking of I have no idea.

There is the normal issue of efficiency loss and range reduction that
occurs in the cold with any car; in pure gas cars you generally don\'t
notice this because you\'re throwing away so much energy to begin with.
it\'s what the giant radiator structures and constantly-running
high-temperature liquid cooling loop is for, a thermodynamic machine
designed to eject 70-90% of the money you spend on fuel out to heat the
Universe.

Larkin gets a thrill from criticizing EVs even though he knows virtually nothing about them. I guess his cell phone doesn\'t work on the ski slopes either.

Larkin doesn\'t \"see\" EVs for the same reason he doesn\'t \"see\" global warming, he won\'t open his eyes.

He doesn\'t seem to be very specific as to what the \"problems\" are.

The only \"problem\" I have is I spend almost none of my life at the gas
station or sitting around in a shop.

 

[bitrex]

On 8/4/2020 5:11 PM, Ricketty C wrote:

On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 2:47:18 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 8/4/2020 11:09 AM, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2020-08-04 10:52, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

Electric cars have problems in the cold too, which is why I don\'t see
Teslas parked at ski areas. A gas car is remarkably good about this
sort of thing.

Yup, especially ones with smart fuel injection.  (That is, everything
since about 1989.)  IIRC SU carburetors are pretty good in cold weather
too--they work at constant vacuum rather than a fixed orifice.

Run my Chevy Volt on battery power when it gets down to -10F sometimes
in New England, it\'s always come right up with no problem. What
\"problems\" he\'s speaking of I have no idea.

There is the normal issue of efficiency loss and range reduction that
occurs in the cold with any car; in pure gas cars you generally don\'t
notice this because you\'re throwing away so much energy to begin with.
it\'s what the giant radiator structures and constantly-running
high-temperature liquid cooling loop is for, a thermodynamic machine
designed to eject 70-90% of the money you spend on fuel out to heat the
Universe.

Larkin gets a thrill from criticizing EVs even though he knows virtually nothing about them. I guess his cell phone doesn\'t work on the ski slopes either.

Larkin doesn\'t \"see\" EVs for the same reason he doesn\'t \"see\" global warming, he won\'t open his eyes.

One can see communism in many things if you look; semiotic symbols and
signs and portents of the communism may be found in cars, and face
masks, and various household objects, coffee machines with disturbing
color schemes, fire hydrants, donuts that look like Stalin, oddly-shaped
bushes and rocks.

 

[Pimpom]

On 8/5/2020 3:40 AM, Tabby wrote:

On Tuesday, 4 August 2020 12:43:32 UTC+1, Pimpom wrote:
On 8/4/2020 1:08 PM, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house, or several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of using 30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes 25W for the same pump performance? (that would correlate to a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback period of less than 4 years?


Personally, I wouldn\'t bother for such a small long-term saving.
Besides, there\'s no way of telling how long either pump will last
and anything could happen during those 4 years.

When my nephew wanted to buy a new car a few years ago, he was
considering going for a diesel version of the same basic model to
save on fuel costs. He changed his mind after I calculated that
it would take about 10 years to cover the 25% difference in
initial cost. That was then. Now diesel prices are almost the
same as that of petrol.

but they do better mpg & you can put various other junk in the fuel tank (in most diesels) eg filtered used oils.

It\'s true about fuel efficiency, but I can\'t visualise anyone
running their car with junk fuel except in an emergency. Besides,
diesel cars don\'t age well - at least here in India - and
maintenance cost is high.

 

[Ricketty C]

On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:07:45 AM UTC-4, Pimpom wrote:

On 8/5/2020 3:40 AM, Tabby wrote:
On Tuesday, 4 August 2020 12:43:32 UTC+1, Pimpom wrote:
On 8/4/2020 1:08 PM, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house, or several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of using 30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes 25W for the same pump performance? (that would correlate to a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback period of less than 4 years?


Personally, I wouldn\'t bother for such a small long-term saving.
Besides, there\'s no way of telling how long either pump will last
and anything could happen during those 4 years.

When my nephew wanted to buy a new car a few years ago, he was
considering going for a diesel version of the same basic model to
save on fuel costs. He changed his mind after I calculated that
it would take about 10 years to cover the 25% difference in
initial cost. That was then. Now diesel prices are almost the
same as that of petrol.

but they do better mpg & you can put various other junk in the fuel tank (in most diesels) eg filtered used oils.

It\'s true about fuel efficiency, but I can\'t visualise anyone
running their car with junk fuel except in an emergency. Besides,
diesel cars don\'t age well - at least here in India - and
maintenance cost is high.

Never owned one myself. I thought the fuel was essentially self lubricating so they held up a lot better, no? The only issue with my dad\'s diesel car was he had to use a heater in the winter so it would start in the morning.. I think it was just a dip stick heater, so not a lot of cost, just a bit of bother to take it out.

He did pay extra for the diesel engine when he bought it and when he traded it in they took off for having it. This was around the time of the gas crunch and they fell out of popularity rather quickly when it was over. Or something... it was a long time ago.

I hear they are much better now.

--

Rick C.

++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[piglet]

On 04/08/2020 8:38 am, Klaus Kragelund wrote:

Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house, or several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of using 30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes 25W for the same pump performance? (that would correlate to a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback period of less than 4 years?

Also, would a IOT connected pump be a sales parameter? (say it breaks down, you can get a email notification, so you avoid a cold house or other nuisance)

Regards

Klaus

Hi Klaus, I definitely couldn\'t care less about pump energy consumption
but value longevity.

In 2018 my 1982 Grundfos circulation pump failed, not from electrical
failure but from a faulty downstream valve air leak cavitation. The
electrical components consisted of two windings, one film capacitor, one
switch and a terminal block. Lasted 36 years and could probably have
lasted another 36. Any excess heat generated by the pump is welcome as
it helps heat the water! Compared to energy costs in making the water
hot in the boiler the energy cost in the pump is trivial.

Finding a like-for-like new replacement was impossible, all new models
are packed full of damnable electronics and reviews implied even ten
year lifetime was highly unlikely. Having an hf-switching high voltage
motor inverter built from cheapest available parts in the smallest
possible space continually exposed to 55-60degC temps is exceptionally
demanding and I really can\'t see the point when a century+ old reliable
ac motor solution already exists.

Given the purchase prices and high to very high labor costs of fitting
the replacements the total cost of ownership is probably higher from the
supposed energy saving pumps than simpler more long lasting pumps.

If there is a place for IOT then it might belong at the system level,
maybe useful in industrial use but can\'t see the need in domestic settings.

piglet

 

[piglet]

On 05/08/2020 9:05 am, piglet wrote:

On 04/08/2020 8:38 am, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house, or several
depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of using
30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes 25W for the same
pump performance? (that would correlate to a electricity savings of
maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback period of
less than 4 years?

Also, would a IOT connected pump be a sales parameter? (say it breaks
down, you can get a email notification, so you avoid a cold house or
other nuisance)

Regards

Klaus


Hi Klaus, I definitely couldn\'t care less about pump energy consumption
but value longevity.

In 2018 my 1982 Grundfos circulation pump failed, not from electrical
failure but from a faulty downstream valve air leak cavitation. The
electrical components consisted of two windings, one film capacitor, one
switch and a terminal block. Lasted 36 years and could probably have
lasted another 36. Any excess heat generated by the pump is welcome as
it helps heat the water! Compared to energy costs in making the water
hot in the boiler the energy cost in the pump is trivial.

Finding a like-for-like new replacement was impossible, all new models
are packed full of damnable electronics and reviews implied even ten
year lifetime was highly unlikely. Having an hf-switching high voltage
motor inverter built from cheapest available parts in the smallest
possible space continually exposed to 55-60degC temps is exceptionally
demanding and I really can\'t see the point when a century+ old reliable
ac motor solution already exists.

Given the purchase prices and high to very high labor costs of fitting
the replacements the total cost of ownership is probably higher from the
supposed energy saving pumps than simpler more long lasting pumps.

If there is a place for IOT then it might belong at the system level,
maybe useful in industrial use but can\'t see the need in domestic settings.

piglet

Forgot to end the replacement story: I searched around and found a NOS
classic design pump at a premium price. Seems there is a thriving market
for the traditional design non-semiconductor driven motor pump.

piglet

 

[Klaus Kragelund]

On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:02:31 AM UTC+2, Don Y wrote:

On 8/4/2020 3:17 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-04 00:38, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Also, would a IOT connected pump be a sales parameter? (say it breaks
down, you can get a email notification, so you avoid a cold house or
other nuisance)

Nope, not really. IoT is popular in industry where it makes a lot of sense. I
designed some stuff in that area. For homes people are largely disappointed.
Costs a lot, doesn\'t do that much, and then one sunny day the cloud goes
permanently blank ... poof ... game is over.

Exactly. At ~$200/device, how much is the average homeowner going to
drop into technology?

Current WiFi modules comes in a less than 2 USD, so it would not add much cost to the bill of material

And, when devices can\'t really talk to each other (in any meaningful
way), what advantage does a device offer -- beyond \"remote access\"?

It could offer to control the pump with an app from a smart phone. Easier setup

[\"Oooo... I can see who is at my front door while I am 1,000 miles
away! *If* I am willing to be bothered by yet-another-alert
delivered to my phone!\"]

Some people, mostly engineers, like stuff like that

Finally, they don\'t give the user any real value that couldn\'t
be made available WITHOUT that \"feature\".

Maybe easier setup, depends on the system of course. If it does not need anything but just a speed setting, an app makes no sense, unless it is for saving some money since you can remove the standard user interface

[I rescued a Nest thermostat and let it run for a month -- but
without network access. It did a worse job regulating the
house\'s temperature than a \"dumb\" smart thermostat (i.e., forget
the \"learning\" ability... just acting as a bang-bang controller)!

But, it makes an ideal UX -- just don\'t let it DO anything!]
UX?

Thanks

Klaus

 

[Klaus Kragelund]

On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 2:01:49 AM UTC+2, Don Y wrote:

On 8/4/2020 4:16 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 7:10:49 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 8/4/2020 3:50 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 5:46:50 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 8/4/2020 2:14 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 3:34:41 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 8/4/2020 12:31 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 7:45:46 AM UTC-4, Klaus Kragelund
wrote:

That said, the pump should not fail anyhow, so it\'s kind of
an academic discussion

What you are calling the \"pump\", is that what we would call a
\"fan\"? I guess I\'m more used to the term \"fan\" or \"compressor\"
for gases and \"pump\" for liquid.

No. Think of oil-fired hot water heat. The circulating pump(s)
move the heated water from the boiler\'s water jacket throughout
their respective zones. Otherwise, the boiler gets hot and the
heat has no place to go!

Not so many use hot water in the US. Mostly newer houses use forced
air. By newer I mean in the last 60 years.

That doesn\'t mean all of the houses that DID use hot water (radiant
flooring, baseboard, etc.) suddenly \"went away\".

No, but they do tend to go away slowly or get converted to something
other than recirculating water.

Most of the people that I grew up with (New England) still rely on
oil-fired water (baseboard) heat. \"Central air\" is not common -- window
units when needed. And, boilers tend to last a long time.

Adding ductwork to an existing home is a significant labor cost (as well
as being largely disruptive during installation) in order to support GFA,
etc.

OTOH, here (Southwest), folks replace central air conditioners every
decade to decade-and-a-half. This typically results in the entire plant
being replaced (as contractors downplay the added cost of a *new* furnace
when you\'re looking at a new compressor plus A-coil plus labor) pretty
regularly.

[And, if you are reliant on HVAC \"professionals\" for maintenance, you are
subtly prodded to think about replacement earlier than might otherwise be
necessary: \"You don\'t want to *risk* having your AC fail during the
cooling season, do you??\"]

Every other solution was cheaper than replacing the 80 year old boiler
including the pipes in the basement cement. There is a reason why no one
installs hot water or steam heat anymore.

Replacing HVAC systems in the Southwest is a common occurrence. You figure
on dropping $8-10K on a new one every 10-15-20 years. The new kit slides
into the space occupied by the old and makes the same connections as the old.

Replacing HVAC systems in New England is still done with the original
legacy installation in mind (else the folks I know back there would
all have updated to GFA by now). Note that Home Depot lists several
\"oil-fired boilers\" available today for ~$2-3K. No need to pull out
the baseboard radiators, dispose of the old oil tank, pay the gas company
for a hookup (excavating your yard and the roadway) and route ductwork
throughout your attic/basement (plus chop holes in walls for ducts).

Steam only makes sense in multidwelling units (older apartment houses)
where a single boiler can be shared among multiple units. In such places,
retrofitting hot water or GFA is even MORE costly. \"Electric\" would
be the more likely route.

Not sure what your point is.

You appeared ignorant of the issue Klaus was raising:

\"What you are calling the \'pump\', is that what we would call a \'fan\'?
I guess I\'m more used to the term \'fan\' or \'compressor\' for gases and
\'pump\' for liquid. \"

Clearly others (e.g, PHobbs) have experience with circulating *pumps*
in 2020. So Klaus\'s comment regarding energy tradeoffs in replacing
a pump (likely in 2020!) are pertinent.

There is a big market in the US still, so there must be a lot of installtions throughout the country:

https://www.marketresearchfuture.com/reports/hot-water-circulator-pump-market-4903

Cheers

Klaus

 

[Klaus Kragelund]

On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 10:05:52 AM UTC+2, piglet wrote:

On 04/08/2020 8:38 am, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house, or several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of using 30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes 25W for the same pump performance? (that would correlate to a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback period of less than 4 years?

Also, would a IOT connected pump be a sales parameter? (say it breaks down, you can get a email notification, so you avoid a cold house or other nuisance)

Regards

Klaus


Hi Klaus, I definitely couldn\'t care less about pump energy consumption
but value longevity.

In 2018 my 1982 Grundfos circulation pump failed, not from electrical
failure but from a faulty downstream valve air leak cavitation. The
electrical components consisted of two windings, one film capacitor, one
switch and a terminal block. Lasted 36 years and could probably have
lasted another 36. Any excess heat generated by the pump is welcome as
it helps heat the water! Compared to energy costs in making the water
hot in the boiler the energy cost in the pump is trivial.

Finding a like-for-like new replacement was impossible, all new models
are packed full of damnable electronics and reviews implied even ten
year lifetime was highly unlikely. Having an hf-switching high voltage
motor inverter built from cheapest available parts in the smallest
possible space continually exposed to 55-60degC temps is exceptionally
demanding and I really can\'t see the point when a century+ old reliable
ac motor solution already exists.

Given the purchase prices and high to very high labor costs of fitting
the replacements the total cost of ownership is probably higher from the
supposed energy saving pumps than simpler more long lasting pumps.

The type you mention lasting 36 years is a very in-efficient one, so if you had switched to the inverter based ones 20 years ago, you would probably have saved a lot. In the EU, only the high efficiency types is allowed for sale

The inverter ones we produce has +10 years lifetime at elevated temperatures. We see little return from the marked. Small return is blocked motor from the standstill of the pump in the off-season

If there is a place for IOT then it might belong at the system level,
maybe useful in industrial use but can\'t see the need in domestic settings.

Thanks for the comments

Cheers

Klaus

 

[Klaus Kragelund]

On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 12:17:27 AM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:

On 2020-08-04 00:38, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house, or several
depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of using
30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes 25W for the
same pump performance? (that would correlate to a electricity savings
of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback period of
less than 4 years?


Yes, but ... in the US circulation pumps are not popular or sometimes
turned off. This has a simple reason and mostly in left-leaning states
where electricity and gas are expensive. Having to run out some cold
water before it gets warm does waste water but that is often more than
an order of magnitude cheaper that the energy used by a recirculating
system. Not so much the electricity for the pump but the loss of thermal
energy in the water going round and round. In our case it\'s propane
which is prohibitively expensive so we would never consider recirculation.


Correct. New regulation actually demand that the user press a button before using the faucet, so that the heat recirculation pump had time to get the water warm right before the user needs it

Also, would a IOT connected pump be a sales parameter? (say it breaks
down, you can get a email notification, so you avoid a cold house or
other nuisance)


Nope, not really. IoT is popular in industry where it makes a lot of
sense. I designed some stuff in that area. For homes people are largely
disappointed. Costs a lot, doesn\'t do that much, and then one sunny day
the cloud goes permanently blank ... poof ... game is over. This is how
I got a brand new little NAS for $7.50. Their cloud vanished. Of course,
I had to hack it which was part of the fun.

--

Cloud solutions should be with the big vendors, so little risk of a dead device. Glad you got a cheap NAS

Cheers

Klaus