Energy savings, do you care?...

[Phil Hobbs]

On 2020-08-04 10:20, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 17:13:22 +0530, Pimpom <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

On 8/4/2020 1:08 PM, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house, or several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of using 30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes 25W for the same pump performance? (that would correlate to a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback period of less than 4 years?


Personally, I wouldn\'t bother for such a small long-term saving.
Besides, there\'s no way of telling how long either pump will last
and anything could happen during those 4 years.

When my nephew wanted to buy a new car a few years ago, he was
considering going for a diesel version of the same basic model to
save on fuel costs. He changed his mind after I calculated that
it would take about 10 years to cover the 25% difference in
initial cost. That was then. Now diesel prices are almost the
same as that of petrol.

Diesel is more than premium gas here.

Neither you nor P. need to worry about it much, but diesels are also
much harder to start in cold weather.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Don Y]

On 8/4/2020 7:25 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 07:01:16 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
wrote:

On 8/4/2020 12:38 AM, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house, or several
depending on the system.

For hot water based heat? E.g., here, it\'s all forced air (gas fired, in
our case)

[OTOH, our heating season is REALLY brief; cooling season is probably 9 mos!]

We also have ng heat with forced air. Our heating season is all year.
It\'s on now. 58F outdoors at 7 AM.

It *drops* to the high 80\'s, overnight (81 here @ 7:30... and that\'s COOLER
than it\'s been, recently, this early). Our *cooling* season started in
February and will likely continue until November.

We typically have 5-10 *nights*, annually, that drop below freezing;
rarely any daytime temps below 60-70-ish. (our highs have been > 100F
for the rememberable past!)

Dehumidification-based cooling seems to be considerably more
expensive than fire-based heating.

 

[Martin Brown]

On 04/08/2020 14:47, Phil Hobbs wrote:

On 2020-08-04 09:36, Martin Brown wrote:

You should run them for a few minutes a week in summer or they tend to
seize up with rusting (at least they do in the UK). I made that
mistake in summer the first year now I let it run briefly on a daily
basis.

Never had an issue with that.  Is it the pump or the armature that
causes problems?

The pump itself. It is easily fixed by opening the end up and using a
big screwdriver to overcome the the sticktion but it is easier not to
allow it to happen in the first place. My CH pump is conveniently
located in the loft along with the master phone socket (thanks BT).

The pump naturally tends to stop at the worst friction point and it
doesn\'t take much to make it bind. A bit like unused car brakes.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[server]

On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 10:28:14 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-08-04 10:20, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 17:13:22 +0530, Pimpom <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

On 8/4/2020 1:08 PM, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house, or several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of using 30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes 25W for the same pump performance? (that would correlate to a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback period of less than 4 years?


Personally, I wouldn\'t bother for such a small long-term saving.
Besides, there\'s no way of telling how long either pump will last
and anything could happen during those 4 years.

When my nephew wanted to buy a new car a few years ago, he was
considering going for a diesel version of the same basic model to
save on fuel costs. He changed his mind after I calculated that
it would take about 10 years to cover the 25% difference in
initial cost. That was then. Now diesel prices are almost the
same as that of petrol.

Diesel is more than premium gas here.



Neither you nor P. need to worry about it much, but diesels are also
much harder to start in cold weather.

We do go up into the mountains in winter. Electric cars have problems
in the cold too, which is why I don\'t see Teslas parked at ski areas.
A gas car is remarkably good about this sort of thing.

I get a new battery every two years, just in case.

Do people still buy diesel cars?

As far as energy savings go, if I wanted to save the earth, I\'d trade
my car in for some tiny underpowered toy, or ride public transit. That
wouldn\'t be fun.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard

 

[server]

On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 07:32:50 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid>
wrote:

On 8/4/2020 7:25 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 07:01:16 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
wrote:

On 8/4/2020 12:38 AM, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house, or several
depending on the system.

For hot water based heat? E.g., here, it\'s all forced air (gas fired, in
our case)

[OTOH, our heating season is REALLY brief; cooling season is probably 9 mos!]

We also have ng heat with forced air. Our heating season is all year.
It\'s on now. 58F outdoors at 7 AM.

It *drops* to the high 80\'s, overnight (81 here @ 7:30... and that\'s COOLER
than it\'s been, recently, this early). Our *cooling* season started in
February and will likely continue until November.

We typically have 5-10 *nights*, annually, that drop below freezing;
rarely any daytime temps below 60-70-ish. (our highs have been > 100F
for the rememberable past!)

Dehumidification-based cooling seems to be considerably more
expensive than fire-based heating.

We have a wussy climate, and nobody has residential ac here. Townhouse
style houses don\'t lose much heat either.

The real energy savings in the USA, after cars maybe, would be more
efficient a/c.

I don\'t know much about a/c. Can you spend money and get seriously
more efficient units? I guess the problem is mostly compressor,
getting rid of the waste heat.

When I lived in New Orleans, a/c was basic life support, but energy
was cheap.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 2020-08-04 10:52, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 10:28:14 -0400, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-08-04 10:20, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 17:13:22 +0530, Pimpom <nobody@nowhere.com
wrote:

On 8/4/2020 1:08 PM, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house, or
several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of
using 30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes
25W for the same pump performance? (that would correlate to a
electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty
ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback
period of less than 4 years?


Personally, I wouldn\'t bother for such a small long-term
saving. Besides, there\'s no way of telling how long either pump
will last and anything could happen during those 4 years.

When my nephew wanted to buy a new car a few years ago, he was
considering going for a diesel version of the same basic model
to save on fuel costs. He changed his mind after I calculated
that it would take about 10 years to cover the 25% difference
in initial cost. That was then. Now diesel prices are almost
the same as that of petrol.

Diesel is more than premium gas here.



Neither you nor P. need to worry about it much, but diesels are
also much harder to start in cold weather.


We do go up into the mountains in winter.

Oh, yeah, I forgot about that peculiar habit of yours.

Electric cars have problems in the cold too, which is why I don\'t see
Teslas parked at ski areas. A gas car is remarkably good about this
sort of thing.

Yup, especially ones with smart fuel injection. (That is, everything
since about 1989.) IIRC SU carburetors are pretty good in cold weather
too--they work at constant vacuum rather than a fixed orifice.

My TR7 had SU carbs--in my dotage I might get a TR8 if I can find one,
just for fun. Have to subscribe to Hemmings.

The TR7\'s engine was canted by about 30 degrees so they could get that
wedge-shaped hood line. That would have been OK except that in order
for the head studs not to intersect the fender when you replaced the
head, they were put in 30 degrees off normal. That meant that to get
the head off you had to _extract_the_studs_.

When my head gasket blew I managed to get nine of the studs out, but the
one right next to the timing chain guide just would not budge. I
eventually used a 2x4 and a small sledge hammer to get it off. Bent the
chain guide all to hell, but it bent back again OK. My idea of fun,
circa 1982.

I get a new battery every two years, just in case.

Do people still buy diesel cars?

As far as energy savings go, if I wanted to save the earth, I\'d
trade my car in for some tiny underpowered toy, or ride public
transit. That wouldn\'t be fun.

If everybody rides public transit you get something like the NYC
subways, which of course turn out to be wonderful places to spread the
Chinese flu.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 2020-08-04 10:49, Martin Brown wrote:

On 04/08/2020 14:47, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2020-08-04 09:36, Martin Brown wrote:

You should run them for a few minutes a week in summer or they tend
to seize up with rusting (at least they do in the UK). I made that
mistake in summer the first year now I let it run briefly on a daily
basis.

Never had an issue with that.  Is it the pump or the armature that
causes problems?

The pump itself. It is easily fixed by opening the end up and using a
big screwdriver to overcome the the sticktion but it is easier not to
allow it to happen in the first place. My CH pump is conveniently
located in the loft along with the master phone socket (thanks BT).

The pump naturally tends to stop at the worst friction point and it
doesn\'t take much to make it bind. A bit like unused car brakes.

Hmm. Mine\'s attached to the side of the furnace, so it never gets damp
no matter the weather. (My boiler is well insulated so I don\'t bother
turning it off in the summer.)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Don Y]

On 8/4/2020 8:00 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 07:32:50 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
wrote:

On 8/4/2020 7:25 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 07:01:16 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
wrote:

On 8/4/2020 12:38 AM, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house, or several
depending on the system.

For hot water based heat? E.g., here, it\'s all forced air (gas fired, in
our case)

[OTOH, our heating season is REALLY brief; cooling season is probably 9 mos!]

We also have ng heat with forced air. Our heating season is all year.
It\'s on now. 58F outdoors at 7 AM.

It *drops* to the high 80\'s, overnight (81 here @ 7:30... and that\'s COOLER
than it\'s been, recently, this early). Our *cooling* season started in
February and will likely continue until November.

We typically have 5-10 *nights*, annually, that drop below freezing;
rarely any daytime temps below 60-70-ish. (our highs have been > 100F
for the rememberable past!)

Dehumidification-based cooling seems to be considerably more
expensive than fire-based heating.

We have a wussy climate, and nobody has residential ac here. Townhouse
style houses don\'t lose much heat either.

The real energy savings in the USA, after cars maybe, would be more
efficient a/c.

Undoubtedly. It\'s by far the single biggest \"load\" in the house.

And, because you can\'t \"time shift\" your usage, you (consumer AND
utility) can\'t benefit from ToU-based tariffs.

I think, here, it would be worthwhile to install solar-powered
ACbrrr... and avoid the tariff changes that the utility imposes
for \"using the grid as a storage medium\" (No, this is MY electricity!
Why would I want to sell it to you at a discount when I can use
it on-site?)

I don\'t know much about a/c. Can you spend money and get seriously
more efficient units? I guess the problem is mostly compressor,
getting rid of the waste heat.

Yes and no. Often the run-time savings get eaten up by the sellers
and installers. It\'s not usually possible for (residences, here) to
adopt different implementation types. E.g., no one uses mini-splits,
here -- save for businesses. First, it\'s just too hard to get them
retrofitted to a home with \"central AC\". And, second, they\'re
eyesores that aren\'t easily tolerated in a non-business setting
(would you want to see a heating/cooling plant in EVERY room of
your house?)

We can live without AC for Spring, Summer and Fall -- relying on
the evaporative cooler (but SHE doesn\'t like it! :< ). It\'s
only during Monsoon that dehumidification becomes the only
practical means of cooling (evap cooler doesn\'t work if
there\'s a lot of moisture in the air, already!)

When I lived in New Orleans, a/c was basic life support, but energy
was cheap.

I think ground-based heat pumps would be far more economical
(air-based are foolish toys, here -- two neighbors have them. The cost
of providing natural gas to their homes is steep as the gas mains
intentionally stop short of their properties!) But, that\'s the sort
of decision you have to make when constructing the house -- impractical
as a retrofit.

Similarly, I think heat exchangers that use the swimming pool
as a heat sink could be effective in lowering cooling costs
(and, providing heated swimming at the same time!). But, again,
retrofit costs are relatively high.

[And, pools, in general, are a \"fad item\"; the home buyer may delight
in having a pool, initially -- but quickly loses interest in it as an
asset. Thereafter, it becomes a liability -- insurance costs, maintenance
costs, etc. You can\'t just \"park it in the garage and forget about it\"]

There are some solar electric technologies that harvest heat from
the collectors which look appealing. But, again, long ROI and high
installation (retrofit) costs.

 

[Don Y]

On 8/4/2020 8:11 AM, Phil Hobbs wrote:

Hmm. Mine\'s attached to the side of the furnace, so it never gets damp no
matter the weather. (My boiler is well insulated so I don\'t bother turning it
off in the summer.)

You may, also, be relying on the boiler for your DHW.

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

tirsdag den 4. august 2020 kl. 16.20.48 UTC+2 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:

On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 17:13:22 +0530, Pimpom <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

On 8/4/2020 1:08 PM, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house, or several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of using 30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes 25W for the same pump performance? (that would correlate to a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback period of less than 4 years?


Personally, I wouldn\'t bother for such a small long-term saving.
Besides, there\'s no way of telling how long either pump will last
and anything could happen during those 4 years.

When my nephew wanted to buy a new car a few years ago, he was
considering going for a diesel version of the same basic model to
save on fuel costs. He changed his mind after I calculated that
it would take about 10 years to cover the 25% difference in
initial cost. That was then. Now diesel prices are almost the
same as that of petrol.

Diesel is more than premium gas here.

which makes sense since it is has ~10% more energy per volume than gasoline

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 2020-08-04 11:39, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

tirsdag den 4. august 2020 kl. 16.20.48 UTC+2 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 17:13:22 +0530, Pimpom <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

On 8/4/2020 1:08 PM, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house, or several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of using 30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes 25W for the same pump performance? (that would correlate to a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback period of less than 4 years?


Personally, I wouldn\'t bother for such a small long-term saving.
Besides, there\'s no way of telling how long either pump will last
and anything could happen during those 4 years.

When my nephew wanted to buy a new car a few years ago, he was
considering going for a diesel version of the same basic model to
save on fuel costs. He changed his mind after I calculated that
it would take about 10 years to cover the 25% difference in
initial cost. That was then. Now diesel prices are almost the
same as that of petrol.

Diesel is more than premium gas here.


which makes sense since it is has ~10% more energy per volume than gasoline

Premium gas is generally about 30% more expensive, so it\'s a net lose,
not even counting the smell, hard starting, and the infernal noise.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 2020-08-04 11:16, Don Y wrote:

On 8/4/2020 8:11 AM, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Hmm.  Mine\'s attached to the side of the furnace, so it never gets
damp no matter the weather.  (My boiler is well insulated so I don\'t
bother turning it off in the summer.)

You may, also, be relying on the boiler for your DHW.

Used to. Then the bottom fell out of the boiler on New Year\'s Day when
it was 0F outside, so I took what the plumber had in stock. It\'s been
nice and reliable for 20 years now--I might be about due for a new one.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

tirsdag den 4. august 2020 kl. 17.47.24 UTC+2 skrev Phil Hobbs:

On 2020-08-04 11:39, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
tirsdag den 4. august 2020 kl. 16.20.48 UTC+2 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 17:13:22 +0530, Pimpom <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

On 8/4/2020 1:08 PM, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house, or several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of using 30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes 25W for the same pump performance? (that would correlate to a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback period of less than 4 years?


Personally, I wouldn\'t bother for such a small long-term saving.
Besides, there\'s no way of telling how long either pump will last
and anything could happen during those 4 years.

When my nephew wanted to buy a new car a few years ago, he was
considering going for a diesel version of the same basic model to
save on fuel costs. He changed his mind after I calculated that
it would take about 10 years to cover the 25% difference in
initial cost. That was then. Now diesel prices are almost the
same as that of petrol.

Diesel is more than premium gas here.


which makes sense since it is has ~10% more energy per volume than gasoline



Premium gas is generally about 30% more expensive, so it\'s a net lose,
not even counting the smell, hard starting, and the infernal noise.

it\'s not the 90s any more, if it wasn\'t for the low rev limit you
probably wouldn\'t notice that you were driving a modern diesel

I still don\'t want one, but ..

 

[server]

On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 11:09:54 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-08-04 10:52, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 10:28:14 -0400, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-08-04 10:20, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 17:13:22 +0530, Pimpom <nobody@nowhere.com
wrote:

On 8/4/2020 1:08 PM, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house, or
several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of
using 30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes
25W for the same pump performance? (that would correlate to a
electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty
ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback
period of less than 4 years?


Personally, I wouldn\'t bother for such a small long-term
saving. Besides, there\'s no way of telling how long either pump
will last and anything could happen during those 4 years.

When my nephew wanted to buy a new car a few years ago, he was
considering going for a diesel version of the same basic model
to save on fuel costs. He changed his mind after I calculated
that it would take about 10 years to cover the 25% difference
in initial cost. That was then. Now diesel prices are almost
the same as that of petrol.

Diesel is more than premium gas here.



Neither you nor P. need to worry about it much, but diesels are
also much harder to start in cold weather.


We do go up into the mountains in winter.

Oh, yeah, I forgot about that peculiar habit of yours.

Electric cars have problems in the cold too, which is why I don\'t see
Teslas parked at ski areas. A gas car is remarkably good about this
sort of thing.

Yup, especially ones with smart fuel injection. (That is, everything
since about 1989.) IIRC SU carburetors are pretty good in cold weather
too--they work at constant vacuum rather than a fixed orifice.

They are theoretically impossible. The vacuum force is too low to move
the needle. But all that vibration breaks the static friction. It\'s
like a dithered DAC.

My TR7 had SU carbs--in my dotage I might get a TR8 if I can find one,
just for fun. Have to subscribe to Hemmings.

Fun?

The TR7\'s engine was canted by about 30 degrees so they could get that
wedge-shaped hood line. That would have been OK except that in order
for the head studs not to intersect the fender when you replaced the
head, they were put in 30 degrees off normal. That meant that to get
the head off you had to _extract_the_studs_.

When my head gasket blew I managed to get nine of the studs out, but the
one right next to the timing chain guide just would not budge. I
eventually used a 2x4 and a small sledge hammer to get it off. Bent the
chain guide all to hell, but it bent back again OK. My idea of fun,
circa 1982.

Oh, a Triumph person? We MG people despised Triumph drivers.

I met my wife in a gay bar that had great burgers. She said that she
had a yellow MG Midget that was running bad. We went outside and I
fixed it with my Swiss Army knife. It was idling at 3000 RPM, and the
idle screw pokes out the top of an SU carb.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 2020-08-04 12:13, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 11:09:54 -0400, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-08-04 10:52, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 10:28:14 -0400, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-08-04 10:20, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 17:13:22 +0530, Pimpom <nobody@nowhere.com
wrote:

On 8/4/2020 1:08 PM, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house, or
several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of
using 30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes
25W for the same pump performance? (that would correlate to a
electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty
ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback
period of less than 4 years?


Personally, I wouldn\'t bother for such a small long-term
saving. Besides, there\'s no way of telling how long either pump
will last and anything could happen during those 4 years.

When my nephew wanted to buy a new car a few years ago, he was
considering going for a diesel version of the same basic model
to save on fuel costs. He changed his mind after I calculated
that it would take about 10 years to cover the 25% difference
in initial cost. That was then. Now diesel prices are almost
the same as that of petrol.

Diesel is more than premium gas here.



Neither you nor P. need to worry about it much, but diesels are
also much harder to start in cold weather.


We do go up into the mountains in winter.

Oh, yeah, I forgot about that peculiar habit of yours.

Electric cars have problems in the cold too, which is why I don\'t see
Teslas parked at ski areas. A gas car is remarkably good about this
sort of thing.

Yup, especially ones with smart fuel injection. (That is, everything
since about 1989.) IIRC SU carburetors are pretty good in cold weather
too--they work at constant vacuum rather than a fixed orifice.

They are theoretically impossible. The vacuum force is too low to move
the needle. But all that vibration breaks the static friction. It\'s
like a dithered DAC.


My TR7 had SU carbs--in my dotage I might get a TR8 if I can find one,
just for fun. Have to subscribe to Hemmings.

Fun?


The TR7\'s engine was canted by about 30 degrees so they could get that
wedge-shaped hood line. That would have been OK except that in order
for the head studs not to intersect the fender when you replaced the
head, they were put in 30 degrees off normal. That meant that to get
the head off you had to _extract_the_studs_.

When my head gasket blew I managed to get nine of the studs out, but the
one right next to the timing chain guide just would not budge. I
eventually used a 2x4 and a small sledge hammer to get it off. Bent the
chain guide all to hell, but it bent back again OK. My idea of fun,
circa 1982.

Oh, a Triumph person? We MG people despised Triumph drivers.

That\'s because we kept blowing your doors off. (Till the guy in the
455 cu in Trans Am with the dead chicken on the hood showed up.)

I met my wife in a gay bar that had great burgers. She said that she
had a yellow MG Midget that was running bad. We went outside and I
fixed it with my Swiss Army knife. It was idling at 3000 RPM, and the
idle screw pokes out the top of an SU carb.

A love story that couldn\'t happen today unless your knife had an OBD-II
scanner as well as the tweezers and toothpick.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[bitrex]

On 8/4/2020 11:09 AM, Phil Hobbs wrote:

On 2020-08-04 10:52, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 10:28:14 -0400, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-08-04 10:20, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 17:13:22 +0530, Pimpom <nobody@nowhere.com
wrote:

On 8/4/2020 1:08 PM, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house, or
several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of
using 30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes
25W for the same pump performance? (that would correlate to a
electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty
ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback
period of less than 4 years?


Personally, I wouldn\'t bother for such a small long-term
saving. Besides, there\'s no way of telling how long either pump
will last and anything could happen during those 4 years.

When my nephew wanted to buy a new car a few years ago, he was
considering going for a diesel version of the same basic model
to save on fuel costs. He changed his mind after I calculated
that it would take about 10 years to cover the 25% difference
in initial cost. That was then. Now diesel prices are almost
the same as that of petrol.

Diesel is more than premium gas here.



Neither you nor P. need to worry about it much, but diesels are
also much harder to start in cold weather.


We do go up into the mountains in winter.

Oh, yeah, I forgot about that peculiar habit of yours.

Electric cars have problems in the cold too, which is why I don\'t see
Teslas parked at ski areas. A gas car is remarkably good about this
sort of thing.

Yup, especially ones with smart fuel injection.  (That is, everything
since about 1989.)  IIRC SU carburetors are pretty good in cold weather
too--they work at constant vacuum rather than a fixed orifice.

Run my Chevy Volt on battery power when it gets down to -10F sometimes
in New England, it\'s always come right up with no problem. What
\"problems\" he\'s speaking of I have no idea.

There is the normal issue of efficiency loss and range reduction that
occurs in the cold with any car; in pure gas cars you generally don\'t
notice this because you\'re throwing away so much energy to begin with.
it\'s what the giant radiator structures and constantly-running
high-temperature liquid cooling loop is for, a thermodynamic machine
designed to eject 70-90% of the money you spend on fuel out to heat the
Universe.

 

[Ricketty C]

On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 7:45:46 AM UTC-4, Klaus Kragelund wrote:

That said, the pump should not fail anyhow, so it\'s kind of an academic discussion

What you are calling the \"pump\", is that what we would call a \"fan\"? I guess I\'m more used to the term \"fan\" or \"compressor\" for gases and \"pump\" for liquid.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Don Y]

On 8/4/2020 12:31 PM, Ricketty C wrote:

On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 7:45:46 AM UTC-4, Klaus Kragelund wrote:

That said, the pump should not fail anyhow, so it\'s kind of an academic
discussion

What you are calling the \"pump\", is that what we would call a \"fan\"? I
guess I\'m more used to the term \"fan\" or \"compressor\" for gases and \"pump\"
for liquid.

No. Think of oil-fired hot water heat. The circulating pump(s)
move the heated water from the boiler\'s water jacket throughout
their respective zones. Otherwise, the boiler gets hot and the
heat has no place to go!

 

[Ricketty C]

On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 2:47:18 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:

On 8/4/2020 11:09 AM, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2020-08-04 10:52, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

Electric cars have problems in the cold too, which is why I don\'t see
Teslas parked at ski areas. A gas car is remarkably good about this
sort of thing.

Yup, especially ones with smart fuel injection.  (That is, everything
since about 1989.)  IIRC SU carburetors are pretty good in cold weather
too--they work at constant vacuum rather than a fixed orifice.

Run my Chevy Volt on battery power when it gets down to -10F sometimes
in New England, it\'s always come right up with no problem. What
\"problems\" he\'s speaking of I have no idea.

There is the normal issue of efficiency loss and range reduction that
occurs in the cold with any car; in pure gas cars you generally don\'t
notice this because you\'re throwing away so much energy to begin with.
it\'s what the giant radiator structures and constantly-running
high-temperature liquid cooling loop is for, a thermodynamic machine
designed to eject 70-90% of the money you spend on fuel out to heat the
Universe.

Larkin gets a thrill from criticizing EVs even though he knows virtually nothing about them. I guess his cell phone doesn\'t work on the ski slopes either.

Larkin doesn\'t \"see\" EVs for the same reason he doesn\'t \"see\" global warming, he won\'t open his eyes.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricketty C]

On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 3:34:41 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:

On 8/4/2020 12:31 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 7:45:46 AM UTC-4, Klaus Kragelund wrote:

That said, the pump should not fail anyhow, so it\'s kind of an academic
discussion

What you are calling the \"pump\", is that what we would call a \"fan\"? I
guess I\'m more used to the term \"fan\" or \"compressor\" for gases and \"pump\"
for liquid.

No. Think of oil-fired hot water heat. The circulating pump(s)
move the heated water from the boiler\'s water jacket throughout
their respective zones. Otherwise, the boiler gets hot and the
heat has no place to go!

Not so many use hot water in the US. Mostly newer houses use forced air. By newer I mean in the last 60 years.

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209