Energy savings, do you care?...

[Klaus Kragelund]

Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house, or several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of using 30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes 25W for the same pump performance? (that would correlate to a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback period of less than 4 years?

Also, would a IOT connected pump be a sales parameter? (say it breaks down, you can get a email notification, so you avoid a cold house or other nuisance)

Regards

Klaus

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Tue, 4 Aug 2020 00:38:10 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Klaus
Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote in
<43fac4d2-63db-447d-845d-b69de72b6e7co@googlegroups.com>:

Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house, or several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of using 30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes 25W for
the same pump performance? (that would correlate to a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback period of less than 4 years?

Also, would a IOT connected pump be a sales parameter? (say it breaks down, you can get a email notification, so you avoid a
cold house or other nuisance)

Regards

Klaus

Anything IOT connected in the house is a hacking danger,
so no way!
As to email notifcation if pump fails,
if its getting cold you will notice!
Not that it will be getting cold soon, 32 C prediced this week here.

My lighting LED strips are connected to the computah and the computah is connected
to the internet, the Russians, sorry the Chinese, ehh the aliens, what not
now control everything.
Unplug your fibre before its too late!

 

[Michael Kellett]

On 04/08/2020 08:38, Klaus Kragelund wrote:

Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house, or several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of using 30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes 25W for the same pump performance? (that would correlate to a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback period of less than 4 years?

Also, would a IOT connected pump be a sales parameter? (say it breaks down, you can get a email notification, so you avoid a cold house or other nuisance)

Regards

Klaus

IOT connected definitely not, just a waste of money and another point of
failure.

As for more efficient, possibly, but its a very small saving. The way
these things are sold in the UK (via plumbers who buy them from
distributors and sell on at higher price) it\'s often very hard to know
if you are getting a good deal or ripped off. $4 a year just isn\'t worth
the effort.

It\'s worth paying attention and making the effort for something big (I
bought my boiled directly myself and got a plumber to install it.), but
maybe not for a pump.

I was once involved in trying to persuade a supermarket chain to replace
power supplies fitted to about 20k checkout tills. (I did the
measuring), they would have saved about 3W per till = approx 50k per
year, and it would have cost them about £200k, but they didn\'t do it.

MK

 

[server]

On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 00:38:10 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
<klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house, or several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of using 30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes 25W for the same pump performance? (that would correlate to a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty ratio)

Why bother about pump efficiency in a _heating_ system ? The pump
losses will eventually be converted to heat, which is the ultimate
goal of the system.

The situation is different in a cooling system, in which you have to
get rid of the original heat load but also the additional heat
generated by the inefficiency of the pump.

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback period of less than 4 years?

Also, would a IOT connected pump be a sales parameter? (say it breaks down, you can get a email notification, so you avoid a cold house or other nuisance)

Regards

Klaus

 

[Klaus Kragelund]

On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 12:06:17 PM UTC+2, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:

On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 00:38:10 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house, or several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of using 30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes 25W for the same pump performance? (that would correlate to a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty ratio)

Why bother about pump efficiency in a _heating_ system ? The pump
losses will eventually be converted to heat, which is the ultimate
goal of the system.

The situation is different in a cooling system, in which you have to
get rid of the original heat load but also the additional heat
generated by the inefficiency of the pump.

Heating by electricity is a lot more expensive than heating with district heating or other forms of energy. Also, heating if the pump is placed in a basement for example may not be needed/desirable

Cheers

Klaus

 

[Pimpom]

On 8/4/2020 1:08 PM, Klaus Kragelund wrote:

Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house, or several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of using 30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes 25W for the same pump performance? (that would correlate to a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback period of less than 4 years?

Personally, I wouldn\'t bother for such a small long-term saving.
Besides, there\'s no way of telling how long either pump will last
and anything could happen during those 4 years.

When my nephew wanted to buy a new car a few years ago, he was
considering going for a diesel version of the same basic model to
save on fuel costs. He changed his mind after I calculated that
it would take about 10 years to cover the 25% difference in
initial cost. That was then. Now diesel prices are almost the
same as that of petrol.

 

[Chris Jones]

On 04/08/2020 20:06, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 00:38:10 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house, or several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of using 30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes 25W for the same pump performance? (that would correlate to a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty ratio)

Why bother about pump efficiency in a _heating_ system ? The pump
losses will eventually be converted to heat, which is the ultimate
goal of the system.

I think that there is still a very weak incentive to care, if the usual
source of heat is cheaper than converting electricity directly to heat
(e.g. in the losses of a motor). For example if the heat came from a
heat pump that is COP times cheaper per unit of heat than resistive
electric heating, or from a fuel burner that runs off some cheap fuel.
But I agree with your general point that if any energy is saved in
running the pump, an equal additional amount of energy will have to be
produced from the usual heat source, diminishing any saving.

The situation is different in a cooling system, in which you have to
get rid of the original heat load but also the additional heat
generated by the inefficiency of the pump.

Yes. That would matter a lot more.

 

[Klaus Kragelund]

On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 11:19:41 AM UTC+2, Jan Panteltje wrote:

On a sunny day (Tue, 4 Aug 2020 00:38:10 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Klaus
Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote in
43fac4d2-63db-447d-845d-b69de72b6e7co@googlegroups.com>:

Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house, or several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of using 30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes 25W for
the same pump performance? (that would correlate to a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback period of less than 4 years?

Also, would a IOT connected pump be a sales parameter? (say it breaks down, you can get a email notification, so you avoid a
cold house or other nuisance)

Regards

Klaus


Anything IOT connected in the house is a hacking danger,

Yeah, that needs to be ultra secure

so no way!
As to email notifcation if pump fails,
if its getting cold you will notice!

If you have a floor heating system, you have a delay of about 8 hours in some systems, so when you really notice you are getting cold, when you have fixed the problem you will have a long lag before you have pleasant temperatures again. It could also be that you are away on vacation, lets say in the winter time, so you could come back to a sub zero freezing house

That said, the pump should not fail anyhow, so it\'s kind of an academic discussion

Not that it will be getting cold soon, 32 C prediced this week here.

My lighting LED strips are connected to the computah and the computah is connected
to the internet, the Russians, sorry the Chinese, ehh the aliens, what not
now control everything.
Unplug your fibre before its too late!

Offline might be a trend in 10 years

 

[Klaus Kragelund]

On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 11:21:20 AM UTC+2, Michael Kellett wrote:

On 04/08/2020 08:38, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house, or several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of using 30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes 25W for the same pump performance? (that would correlate to a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback period of less than 4 years?

Also, would a IOT connected pump be a sales parameter? (say it breaks down, you can get a email notification, so you avoid a cold house or other nuisance)

Regards

Klaus

IOT connected definitely not, just a waste of money and another point of
failure.

As for more efficient, possibly, but its a very small saving. The way
these things are sold in the UK (via plumbers who buy them from
distributors and sell on at higher price) it\'s often very hard to know
if you are getting a good deal or ripped off. $4 a year just isn\'t worth
the effort.

Communicating the savings to the customer could be a difficult task

It\'s worth paying attention and making the effort for something big (I
bought my boiled directly myself and got a plumber to install it.), but
maybe not for a pump.

I was once involved in trying to persuade a supermarket chain to replace
power supplies fitted to about 20k checkout tills. (I did the
measuring), they would have saved about 3W per till = approx 50k per
year, and it would have cost them about £200k, but they didn\'t do it..

That would make good sense to do, but again maybe a difficult sell to the client, payback of less than 4-5 years is preferable. You need to take Net Present Value into account. If he invested 200k, could he have profit of 20% per year? Most companies used an interest of 10%, so your case would then be more like a payback of 7-8 years

 

[server]

> (that would correlate to a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty ratio)

If your furnace is on 50% of the time, the first order of business it to move to a better climate.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

 

[Klaus Kragelund]

On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 2:00:12 PM UTC+2, pcdh...@gmail.com wrote:

(that would correlate to a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty ratio)

If your furnace is on 50% of the time, the first order of business it to move to a better climate.

It\'s not the furnace that is on, it\'s the pump. Most users just set the pump at speed 2 or 3, just to be sure they will never see a problem with sufficient heat transfer to the radiators

Cheers

Klaus

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 2020-08-04 09:36, Martin Brown wrote:

On 04/08/2020 14:09, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2020-08-04 08:36, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 2:00:12 PM UTC+2, pcdh...@gmail.com wrote:
(that would correlate to a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per
year for a 50% duty ratio)

If your furnace is on 50% of the time, the first order of business
it to move to a better climate.

It\'s not the furnace that is on, it\'s the pump. Most users just set
the pump at speed 2 or 3, just to be sure they will never see a
problem with sufficient heat transfer to the radiators

Even so the pump is only running when the CH thermostat tells it to and
the boiler only fires when the return water becomes too cold. I don\'t
think the energy saving here is sufficient to be worth considering.

My pumps are controlled by the thermostat--one pump per zone.  They
don\'t run at all for five months of the year.

You should run them for a few minutes a week in summer or they tend to
seize up with rusting (at least they do in the UK). I made that mistake
in summer the first year now I let it run briefly on a daily basis.

Never had an issue with that. Is it the pump or the armature that
causes problems?

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Don Y]

On 8/4/2020 12:38 AM, Klaus Kragelund wrote:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house, or several
depending on the system.

For hot water based heat? E.g., here, it\'s all forced air (gas fired, in
our case)

[OTOH, our heating season is REALLY brief; cooling season is probably 9 mos!]

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of using 30W, you
could buy a more expensive one that consumes 25W for the same pump
performance? (that would correlate to a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD
per year for a 50% duty ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback period of less than
4 years?

I don\'t think folks spend much time judging a $10 cost adder amortized over
4 years: \"I\'ll save the $10, NOW!\"

This is especially true as energy rates tend to change, over time, and
in ways that are hard to predict (but inevitably in favor of the utility!).
I.e., I doubt many folks could tell you what it costs them to run <device>.

[major appliances have an \"energy rating\". Among other things, it tells
the consumer what the expected operating cost for the unit is over the
course of a year. This is displayed prominently on the device! In
both numeric form ($$) and as a \"relative performance\" (wrt other similar
devices). Yet, I suspect most folks barely look at it when making a
purchase decision.

Also, would a IOT connected pump be a sales parameter? (say it breaks down,
you can get a email notification, so you avoid a cold house or other
nuisance)

I avoid anything \"cloud related\" -- relying on an internet connection
to tell me what\'s happening 20 ft from where I am sitting! (what tells
you when your pumps internet connection has failed?)

OTOH, I\'ve been systematically automating the entire house -- but with
\"local\" intelligence and notifications (in multiple modalities as
you can\'t know what forms of notification/interaction a user can
perceive).

In most cases, I have to do this indirectly as the attributes that
I\'m sensing aren\'t outfitted with \"hooks\" to access the aspects
of interest to me. E.g., if the thermostat called for heat,
I would expect to see an increase in the flow of natural gas into
the house. And, a coincident increase in the amount of electricity
consumed. Furthermore, I would expect these to be \"comparable\" to
my observations of them in the past (cuz I\'m ALWAYS \"watching\"!).

Absent these resource demand increases, I\'d LIKELY conclude
that the furnace isn\'t responding to the call for heat issued
by the thermostat. And, evaluate a set of possible causes for
this condition to convey to the user alongside that notification.
- failed blower (responsible for the largest portion of power increase)
- failed circuit breaker (affects gas valve and blower)
- failed controller (internal to furnace)
- access panel off/loose on furnace (safety interlock)
- disconnected control cable to furnace from thermostat
etc.

Likewise, if I see the expected increases -- yet don\'t see the
temperature respond IN THE MANNER IT HAS IN PAST OBSERVATIONS,
then, evaluate a set of possible causes for this condition:
- barometric damper stuck
- failed temperature sensor (\"stuck at...\")
- window(s) open
- low gas supply pressure (happened a few years ago)
etc.

But, there are few/insignificant costs for this born SOLELY by
(for example) The HVAC System. (e.g., monitoring mains power and
gas flow rates can also be used to tell if the water heater
has failed or is performing suboptimally; if the stove has
been left on after the occupants retired or departed the
building; etc.)

In my case, I\'m intending to protect/notify populations that
would likely not notice these problems until \"too late\".
They may be more willing to pay for those \"protections\" than
the average home/business owner -- who might see them as
just \"toys\".

(How often have you left your garage door open overnight?
OTOH, how likely would you be to experience a theft -- or
intrusion! -- if you\'d accidentally done so?)

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 2020-08-04 08:36, Klaus Kragelund wrote:

On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 2:00:12 PM UTC+2, pcdh...@gmail.com wrote:
(that would correlate to a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty ratio)

If your furnace is on 50% of the time, the first order of business it to move to a better climate.

It\'s not the furnace that is on, it\'s the pump. Most users just set the pump at speed 2 or 3, just to be sure they will never see a problem with sufficient heat transfer to the radiators

Cheers

Klaus

My pumps are controlled by the thermostat--one pump per zone. They
don\'t run at all for five months of the year.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Martin Brown]

On 04/08/2020 14:09, Phil Hobbs wrote:

On 2020-08-04 08:36, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 2:00:12 PM UTC+2, pcdh...@gmail.com wrote:
(that would correlate to a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per
year for a 50% duty ratio)

If your furnace is on 50% of the time, the first order of business it
to move to a better climate.

It\'s not the furnace that is on, it\'s the pump. Most users just set
the pump at speed 2 or 3, just to be sure they will never see a
problem with sufficient heat transfer to the radiators

Even so the pump is only running when the CH thermostat tells it to and
the boiler only fires when the return water becomes too cold. I don\'t
think the energy saving here is sufficient to be worth considering.

My pumps are controlled by the thermostat--one pump per zone.  They
don\'t run at all for five months of the year.

You should run them for a few minutes a week in summer or they tend to
seize up with rusting (at least they do in the UK). I made that mistake
in summer the first year now I let it run briefly on a daily basis.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Klaus Kragelund]

On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 3:09:46 PM UTC+2, Phil Hobbs wrote:

On 2020-08-04 08:36, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 2:00:12 PM UTC+2, pcdh...@gmail.com wrote:
(that would correlate to a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty ratio)

If your furnace is on 50% of the time, the first order of business it to move to a better climate.

It\'s not the furnace that is on, it\'s the pump. Most users just set the pump at speed 2 or 3, just to be sure they will never see a problem with sufficient heat transfer to the radiators

Cheers

Klaus


My pumps are controlled by the thermostat--one pump per zone. They
don\'t run at all for five months of the year.

Yes, that is a typical US design. If you add up the power to those pumps you are probably way over 30W

In the EU, we use a central pump, and valves to turn regulate each zone. Typical power for the entire system is less than 30W

Cheers

Klaus

 

[Klaus Kragelund]

On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 3:36:40 PM UTC+2, Martin Brown wrote:

On 04/08/2020 14:09, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2020-08-04 08:36, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 2:00:12 PM UTC+2, pcdh...@gmail.com wrote:
(that would correlate to a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per
year for a 50% duty ratio)

If your furnace is on 50% of the time, the first order of business it
to move to a better climate.

It\'s not the furnace that is on, it\'s the pump. Most users just set
the pump at speed 2 or 3, just to be sure they will never see a
problem with sufficient heat transfer to the radiators

Even so the pump is only running when the CH thermostat tells it to and
the boiler only fires when the return water becomes too cold. I don\'t
think the energy saving here is sufficient to be worth considering.

The newer designs regulate the boiler power, since the design you mention above is not as efficient and exerts more stress on the components

 

[server]

On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 00:38:10 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
<klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house, or several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of using 30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes 25W for the same pump performance? (that would correlate to a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback period of less than 4 years?

Also, would a IOT connected pump be a sales parameter? (say it breaks down, you can get a email notification, so you avoid a cold house or other nuisance)

Regards

Klaus

$4 is equivalent to zero. Doesn\'t matter.

What I want in appliances is reliability and simplicity. Energy use is
secondary.

I have telemetry from our cabin, independent of the simple heating
system, in case it gets freezing inside. If it does, I\'ll call someone
to go there and fix it. They won\'t need a CS degree to do that.

Imagine the long-term maintenence nightmares of highly-automated
web-connected appliances coded by the usual gang of idiots.

We are getting a new dishwasher this week, mostly because the existing
one is flimsy and buggy and complex. The touch panel is a physical and
logical nightmare. It\'s a high-end name brand that is now the same
Chinese junk built in (and coded in) the same factory as a lot of
other renamed junk.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard

 

[server]

On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 17:13:22 +0530, Pimpom <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

On 8/4/2020 1:08 PM, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Hi

Triggered by the HVAC wiring thread, just out of curiosity:

Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house, or several depending on the system.

Do you care about the efficiency of that one, say instead of using 30W, you could buy a more expensive one that consumes 25W for the same pump performance? (that would correlate to a electricity savings of maybe 4 USD per year for a 50% duty ratio)

Would you spend +10 USD more on that pump, for a payback period of less than 4 years?


Personally, I wouldn\'t bother for such a small long-term saving.
Besides, there\'s no way of telling how long either pump will last
and anything could happen during those 4 years.

When my nephew wanted to buy a new car a few years ago, he was
considering going for a diesel version of the same basic model to
save on fuel costs. He changed his mind after I calculated that
it would take about 10 years to cover the 25% difference in
initial cost. That was then. Now diesel prices are almost the
same as that of petrol.

Diesel is more than premium gas here.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard

 

[server]

On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 07:01:16 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid>
wrote:

On 8/4/2020 12:38 AM, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Some of you probably have a circulation pump in the house, or several
depending on the system.

For hot water based heat? E.g., here, it\'s all forced air (gas fired, in
our case)

[OTOH, our heating season is REALLY brief; cooling season is probably 9 mos!]

We also have ng heat with forced air. Our heating season is all year.
It\'s on now. 58F outdoors at 7 AM.







--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard