Electrical repair report

[John Robertson]

On 05/05/2015 10:27 AM, mogulah@hotmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 10:49:58 AM UTC-4, John Robertson wrote:
On 05/04/2015 9:35 PM, jurb6006@gmail.com wrote:
... I suppose if you were in your bare feet on an aluminum ladder changing

a broken (somehow) lightbulb in the cieling fixture while it is turned
on (hey, they'll do that I gues) there could be a shock hazard. Usually
when I climb a ladder I put my shoes on.

One hand on ladder, the other grabbing the light bulb
will make a conduction path...

Really? Even with wooden or fiberglass ladders?

The last sentence of previous poster was saying that he wore shoes when
he climbed ladders and figured no risk of shock as a result. As he had
previously suggested this was an aluminum ladder so I figured he may
have overlooked that path...

As for wooden or fiberglass, if the wood is wet or either ladder is wet
along with conductive material (metal shavings, metal dust, etc.) they
can conduct some electricity. Probably not enough to be a problem, but
one can't assume you are completely safe even on a fiberglass ladder.

One has to think about conduction paths...unless you like falling from
heights.

John :-#)#

--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
(604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

 

[whit3rd]

On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 8:35:42 AM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Sun, 03 May 2015 09:42:33 -0500, amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote:

It is almost as easy to test outlets with a multimeter, but this
three light device makes it a breeze.

Could you buy one of these and tell me if it's worth spending $300?
http://www.idealind.com/prodDetail.do?prodId=61-164

Just to add to the confusion, here's a power strip that does the three-lamp
kind of test, and shuts all the outputs off if it doesn't pass
(and the test is continuous, will shutdown on intermittent faults).

<http://www.tripplite.com/medical-grade-power-strip-4-outlets-15-ft-cord-safety-covers-patient-care-areas~PS415HGULTRA/>

 

[Jon Elson]

In the last house I had (that was 25 years ago), I had lived there a couple
years before I found this one. In a closet, somebody had stapled through
the Romex, shearing the safety ground from the panel, and tying the hot to
the safety geround of the outlet! I'd been using it for years when I
touched what was plugged into that outlet and some other piece of gear at
the same time and got a hard jolt! It wasn't hard to fix, but I was amazed
I'd been using it that long without discovering the problem.

Jon

 

[Jon Elson]

jurb...@gmail.com wrote:


"Having E and N reversed means that any RCD on the circuit will trip
soon as a >load is plugged in making it unusable. "

I have not found that to be true of the GFCIs around here.

Well, the outlet-style GFCI only knows what it can sense. As long as
current on the two blade contacts is equal, it has no knowledge of what is
going on on the earth ground pin. So, even if the installation has wired
earth to hot (outside the GFCI) it won't know that. In most installations,
Earth and Neutral are tied together, generally in the first panel at the
power entry. So, electrically, swapping them isn't different.

In the UK and other 240 V countries, there generally is no neutral. Hot,
hot and Earth. In the UK, they have this balanced 110 V system for
construction sites, using US 120 V power tools. That also has no neutral,
in the sense we use it in the US.

Jon

 

[Phil Allison]

On Saturday, May 9, 2015 at 2:58:45 AM UTC+10, Jon Elson wrote:

jurb...@gmail.com wrote:


"Having E and N reversed means that any RCD on the circuit will trip
soon as a >load is plugged in making it unusable. "

I have not found that to be true of the GFCIs around here.

Well, the outlet-style GFCI only knows what it can sense. As long as
current on the two blade contacts is equal, it has no knowledge of what is
going on on the earth ground pin.

** My comment was CLEALRY about an "RCD on the circuit" and not a plug in unit used on a miswired outlet - which will operate normally.



> In the UK and other 240 V countries, there generally is no neutral.

** That's big news to all the folk who live there.


> Hot, hot and Earth.

** Not the norm at all.

Neutral tied to the ground at the supply entry or nearby is the norm.

In the UK, they have this balanced 110 V system for
construction sites, using US 120 V power tools.

** They use portable isolation transformers for that.

http://www.screwfix.com/p/portable-transformer-with-2-output-sockets-3kva/84144

That also has no neutral,
in the sense we use it in the US.

** But is the only example.


..... Phil

 

[John G]

Jon Elson was thinking very hard :

jurb...@gmail.com wrote:


"Having E and N reversed means that any RCD on the circuit will trip
soon as a >load is plugged in making it unusable. "

I have not found that to be true of the GFCIs around here.

Well, the outlet-style GFCI only knows what it can sense. As long as
current on the two blade contacts is equal, it has no knowledge of what is
going on on the earth ground pin. So, even if the installation has wired
earth to hot (outside the GFCI) it won't know that. In most installations,
Earth and Neutral are tied together, generally in the first panel at the
power entry. So, electrically, swapping them isn't different.

In the UK and other 240 V countries, there generally is no neutral. Hot,
hot and Earth. In the UK, they have this balanced 110 V system for
construction sites, using US 120 V power tools. That also has no neutral,
in the sense we use it in the US.

Jon

I think you are WRONG
240 volt countries generaly distribute 4 wires, 3 hots and a neutral.
Often only 1 hot and the neutral to each house unless the load needs
more (Aircon etc). Mostly the neutral is tied to the GROUND at the
building entry as well as back at the last transformer pole or cabinet.
The 110 volts in the UK is supplied by site specific transformers and
not part of the domestic distribution I believe.

--
John G Sydney.

 

[Baron]

Phil Allison prodded the keyboard with:

In the UK and other 240 V countries, there generally is no neutral.

** That's big news to all the folk who live there.

You can say that again Phil.

In the UK, they have this balanced 110 V system for
construction sites, using US 120 V power tools.

** They use portable isolation transformers for that.

True ! But the output centre tap is connected to ground so that there
is a maximum of 55 volts or half the transformer output voltage with
respect to ground .

> .... Phil

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

 

[Baron]

John G prodded the keyboard with:

Jon Elson was thinking very hard :

jurb...@gmail.com wrote:


"Having E and N reversed means that any RCD on the circuit will
trip soon as a >load is plugged in making it unusable. "

I have not found that to be true of the GFCIs around here.

Well, the outlet-style GFCI only knows what it can sense. As long
as current on the two blade contacts is equal, it has no knowledge
of what is
going on on the earth ground pin. So, even if the installation has
wired
earth to hot (outside the GFCI) it won't know that. In most
installations, Earth and Neutral are tied together, generally in
the first panel at the
power entry. So, electrically, swapping them isn't different.

In the UK and other 240 V countries, there generally is no neutral.
Hot,
hot and Earth. In the UK, they have this balanced 110 V system for
construction sites, using US 120 V power tools. That also has no
neutral, in the sense we use it in the US.

Jon

I think you are WRONG
240 volt countries generaly distribute 4 wires, 3 hots and a
neutral. Often only 1 hot and the neutral to each house unless the
load needs more (Aircon etc). Mostly the neutral is tied to the
GROUND at the building entry as well as back at the last transformer
pole or cabinet. The 110 volts in the UK is supplied by site
specific transformers and not part of the domestic distribution I
believe.

100% Correct ! Three phase's are used. In my street one phase is
fed to properties on one side of the street, a second phase to the
other, and it seems that the street lighting is on the third one.

Though we have had open neutral failures several times and one
transformer fire in the past few years.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

 

[Phil Allison]

John G prodded the keyboard with:

In my street one phase is
fed to properties on one side of the street, a second phase to the
other, and it seems that the street lighting is on the third one.

** Street lighting uses very little power compared to adjacent houses and then only at night - so no way would a whole phase be dedicated to it.

Betya it gets distributed across all phases here and there like the premises.



.... Phil

 

>"Betya it gets distributed across all phases here and there like the premises. "

You are the one to know that shit, but really if they did it would make metering alot less troublesome.

Of course at this point, IF a municipality or other govenrmental agency actually pays, it is most likely not metered and just based on how many lights and fixtures of other types are used.

things can fuck this up, like if when the stretlights come on all kinds of other lights come on. But in reality, it really doesn't make enough difference to make a difference.

So every year, people who make a billion dollars a year get more, despite the fact that we get less. that is OK usually, it was when I was younger. I respect innovators.

But now all it takes to make money is money. And also, no amount of skill and all that shit will work without money. I had a very interesting talk with someone today, has some ins, but really there is so little going on.

I see how it is, and some people do have it good right now, but the trend is bad. It is too fucking much socialism.

It really is that simple. I think a certain amount of socialism makes for a good society, but that hasn't been implemented since before the medeival ages. Like with Plato n shit.

Whatever, I got a buzz on, it is Saturday night so fukit. I am just sending this.

 

On Sunday, May 10, 2015 at 1:17:50 AM UTC-4, jurb...@gmail.com wrote:

It really is that simple. I think a certain amount of socialism makes for a good society, but that hasn't been implemented since before the medeival ages. Like with Plato n shit.

Whatever ...

Well, regarding grant-money soaking Polly Sci, Plato (as in Aristotle studied with Plato who, before then studied with Socrates) They were Greek. Its only rumored that socialism was included in government models of their time.

The literal word "Socialism" was first used in 1837 by Henri de Saint-Simon [1760 - 1825] and apparently never before that time. It came from the Latin term (much later than Greek), which means to combine or to share.

 

[Leif Neland]

Phil Allison skrev:

John G prodded the keyboard with:

In my street one phase is
fed to properties on one side of the street, a second phase to the
other, and it seems that the street lighting is on the third one.

** Street lighting uses very little power compared to adjacent houses and
then only at night - so no way would a whole phase be dedicated to it.

Betya it gets distributed across all phases here and there like the premises.

Here in Denmark, back when every street had electric poles, there were
5 wires: Neutral at top, 3 phases, and the 5.th for street light.

But nowadays, almost every pole has disappeared in favour of cables in
the ground. I guess it is easier when there is no rock around

Leif

--
https://www.paradiss.dk
Ting til konen eller kĂŚresten.
Eller begge.

 

[Phil Allison]

Leif Neland wrote:

Phil Allison skrev:
John G prodded the keyboard with:


In my street one phase is
fed to properties on one side of the street, a second phase to the
other, and it seems that the street lighting is on the third one.


** Street lighting uses very little power compared to adjacent houses and
then only at night - so no way would a whole phase be dedicated to it.

Betya it gets distributed across all phases here and there like the premises.


Here in Denmark, back when every street had electric poles, there were
5 wires: Neutral at top, 3 phases, and the 5.th for street light.

** Well, there has to be some way of turning streetlights on and off each day and using a dedicated circuit is the oldest method.

More recently, remote control systems have been developed using RF signals or each lamp or group has an electronic light sensor.



.... Phil

 

[John-Del]

On Wednesday, May 13, 2015 at 2:29:46 AM UTC-4, Phil Allison wrote:

More recently, remote control systems have been developed using RF signals or each lamp or group has an electronic light sensor.



... Phil

I haven't paid attention to this in 50 years, but back when we were kids, we'd watch the street department replace street lights with a bucket truck. When the installer was done, he'd take his hardhat off and cover the light sensor housing that sat on top of the fixture to test the light. Not sure if they're still using photo cells or some remote activation.

 

[Baron]

Phil Allison prodded the keyboard with:

Leif Neland wrote:

Phil Allison skrev:
John G prodded the keyboard with:


In my street one phase is
fed to properties on one side of the street, a second phase to
the other, and it seems that the street lighting is on the third
one.


** Street lighting uses very little power compared to adjacent
houses and then only at night - so no way would a whole phase be
dedicated to it.

Betya it gets distributed across all phases here and there like
the premises.


Here in Denmark, back when every street had electric poles, there
were 5 wires: Neutral at top, 3 phases, and the 5.th for street
light.


** Well, there has to be some way of turning streetlights on and off
each day and using a dedicated circuit is the oldest method.

More recently, remote control systems have been developed using RF
signals or each lamp or group has an electronic light sensor.


... Phil

Yes that is how its done locally with light sensors on each lamp post.
Although the sodium lamps are now being changed for led ones. The
new ones are very white and you can see a definite spot or circle of
light on the ground now. The actual lamp head is quite a bit smaller
in size too.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

 

[Tim R]

On Thursday, May 14, 2015 at 9:04:53 AM UTC-4, Baron wrote:

Phil Allison prodded the keyboard with:

Leif Neland wrote:

Phil Allison skrev:
John G prodded the keyboard with:


In my street one phase is
fed to properties on one side of the street, a second phase to
the other, and it seems that the street lighting is on the third
one.


** Street lighting uses very little power compared to adjacent
houses and then only at night - so no way would a whole phase be
dedicated to it.

Betya it gets distributed across all phases here and there like
the premises.


Here in Denmark, back when every street had electric poles, there
were 5 wires: Neutral at top, 3 phases, and the 5.th for street
light.


** Well, there has to be some way of turning streetlights on and off
each day and using a dedicated circuit is the oldest method.

More recently, remote control systems have been developed using RF
signals or each lamp or group has an electronic light sensor.


... Phil

Yes that is how its done locally with light sensors on each lamp post.
Although the sodium lamps are now being changed for led ones. The
new ones are very white and you can see a definite spot or circle of
light on the ground now. The actual lamp head is quite a bit smaller
in size too.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

I was a bit surprised driving through Germany to see tube fluorescents being used for most of the street lighting. They had very high energy costs, we were paying 27 cents/kWt-hr. I've been back 6 years, I don't know what they use now.