Electrical repair report

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 4 May 2015 04:58:53 +0000 (UTC), mroberds@att.net wrote:

>I wonder why they keep the electrical code a secret, though.

The NFPA puts the NEC online for reading, but not downloading or
printing. The code for domestic electrical is NFPA 70 (2014). I
spend quite a bit of time reading section 690 (Solar Photovoltaic):
<http://www.nfpa.org/freeaccess>
A free account and email validation is required for a login and
password. One big catch is that it's not searchable. You need to
know the section of interest by number or you'll never find anything.
It's also rather difficult to get a full page on the screen at one
time. At least the NEC section has a Table of Contents.

I have a 1987 NEC printed book. Totally obsolete, but some things
never change.

I like the Kill-a-watt and the Ideal tester because I don't have to do
(as much) math. Just push the buttons and see what they say.

The kill-a-watt thing does show power factor, which is becoming
increasingly important.

I also like the watt-hour function of the Kill-a-watt. Microwaving some
potatoes for dinner costs me about 2 cents. Mowing the yard with my
nuclear-powered lawnmower and string trimmer costs me about 12 cents.

There are fancy power meters that include rate tiers and time of use
rate changes. However, I'm still waiting for PG&E to approve more
Zigbee based power monitors for their smartmeters, so I can monitor my
power consumption directly. So far, just one minimal device has their
blessing:
<http://www.pge.com/en/myhome/saveenergymoney/rebates/han/validateddevice/index.page>
<http://www.aztechmeter.com>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Leif Neland]

mroberds@att.net har bragt dette til os:

I know a guy who has an RV, and he has one always plugged into the 120 V
outlet by the kitchen sink. Apparently not all RV park power outlets
are wired the same.

Probably it's better to say "All power outlets are not wired
correctly".

It would probably be best to have a cheap tester to make sure e.g. the
ground is really connected to ground and not just the chassis of the
neigbour.

Leif

--
https://www.paradiss.dk
Ting til konen eller kĂŚresten.
Eller begge.

 

[Allodoxaphobia]

On Sun, 03 May 2015 15:25:22 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On 3 May 2015 21:50:55 GMT, Allodoxaphobia wrote:
On Sun, 03 May 2015 13:26:17 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

I have GFCI outlets on some of my portable power strips. They false
trip easily when wet or humid.

Or, when you forget to uncoil the 100' extension cord when using an
outdoors GFCI...
Jonesy

You mean that it makes a difference whether the cord is coiled or
uncoiled? I just tried it indoors with my bathroom GFCI and two heavy
50ft 12/3 cords in series. I couldn't make it trip when coiled.

What am I missing here?

Maybe the high surge current when starting a good-sized motor. It's
happened to me when using a "Saws All", a 14" chain saw, and an electric
lawn mower. Breaking up the "neatly" coiled extension cord solved the
(repeatable) problem. Don't believe I ever experienced it with anything
else -- like a hand drill or battery charger.

And, maybe the GFCI was working at the far edge of specs.
In any case, that house is no longer my home.

Jonesy
--
Marvin L Jones | Marvin | W3DHJ | linux
38.238N 104.547W | @ jonz.net | Jonesy | OS/2
* Killfiling google & XXXXbanter.com: jonz.net/ng.htm

 

[amdx]

On 5/3/2015 11:06 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Sun, 03 May 2015 20:23:02 -0500, amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote:

I think you have someone else in mind.

It's possible, but I do recall the multiple freezers full of fish. Oh,
it's shrimp. Still sounds familiar but now I'm not so sure.

Are you having a bad day Jeff?

Nope. It's typical. Some bad, some good. I don't think I'm being
inordinately obnoxious but if I offended you in some way, please
forgive me.

You are forgiven.
Yes. I was offended by your paragraph,

"Ummm... I seem to recall that your garage is crammed full of frozen
fish in freezers. I also recall some photos of what I consider to be
rather atrocious Romex wiring snaked around the outside of the house
and garage. Now, you want to add a stove to the load? Have you
actually measured the total current drain if you turn everything on at
the same time? Have you at least tried to balance the load between
the two phases entering the house? Have you considered replacing the
Romex with something heavier, running conduit, and installing a real
sub-panel with breakers?"

Because, nothing was true, except, I never measured to balance the
load, I did put equal freezers on each circuit breaker though. I suppose
at sometime I could have a freak coincidence and have 6 freezers running
at the same time that are all on the same leg. Don't know what I could
do about a freak happening like that.

I have a sunroom that houses 12 freezers. I have a subpanel with
4-20 amp breakers. All wiring is in 3/4" conduit running to outlets.

Ok, you did that right. I was thinking you just ran a Romex extension
cord. I take it the sunroom is wired seperately from the garage?

Yes, I did it right. The garage is all original as built, for the
sunroom, started all new, Installed new breaker, low gauge wire to power
meter, into subpanel, breakout to 4 circuit breakers, 4 branches
all in conduit.

http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp37/Qmavam/P1010191_zpsxpjbxa4c.jpg
http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp37/Qmavam/P1010190_zpshtapoo5c.jpg
http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp37/Qmavam/P1010189_zpsxv7liykl.jpg

OK. I see the problem. If you want to put it back the way it was,
you'll probably need the marked wires. However, it does look rather
rusty and with rotted insulation. Might be a good time or excuse for
a replacement.

It is nice to have your support.

btw, most of my major back issues have. after 5 years seem to have
resolved themselves. I noticed a change last November, enough so that I
have started walking, I have logged over 40 miles a week for several
weeks now. I feel like a new person, getting out of bed without pain,
getting out of a chair. It is just plain wonderful! At times I get giddy
over it.
Now, if it can just continue.
Mikek

 

[Ralph Mowery]

"Jeff Liebermann" <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote in message
news:qu4ekatqjq20e8h3n1v62tv4dqbqupmp29@4ax.com...

On Mon, 4 May 2015 04:58:53 +0000 (UTC), mroberds@att.net wrote:

I wonder why they keep the electrical code a secret, though.

The NFPA puts the NEC online for reading, but not downloading or
printing. The code for domestic electrical is NFPA 70 (2014). I
spend quite a bit of time reading section 690 (Solar Photovoltaic):
http://www.nfpa.org/freeaccess
A free account and email validation is required for a login and
password. One big catch is that it's not searchable. You need to
know the section of interest by number or you'll never find anything.
It's also rather difficult to get a full page on the screen at one
time. At least the NEC section has a Table of Contents.

I think it is so they can charge a high dollar for the book just to make
money. There is also a book that is put out by them that not only has the
code,but explinations and pix of how the wiring should be.
For many this extra book is more useful than the actual code book.
I am thinking the books come out updated every 3 years.

I believe not too many years ago the code book had to be bought and it was
only after some legal issues that they had to make it available on line for
free.

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 4 May 2015 10:07:21 -0400, "Ralph Mowery"
<rmowery28146@earthlink.net> wrote:

I think it is so they can charge a high dollar for the book just to make
money.

Of course. At $100 per book a difficult to use free copy is great
advertising. I also get the mailings from NFPA and have difficulties
resisting the temptation to buy the book. My current plan is to share
the cost with several others locally.

Incidentally, in Sept 2013, the Peoples Republic of Santa Cruz
(county) added to my misery by adopting the International Building
Code, which includes the beginnings of an electrical section:
<http://www.co.santa-cruz.az.us/DocumentCenter/View/970>
At this time, it mostly deals with fire safety. It's free (for now),
somewhat printable, but not searchable or downloadable without a paid
subscription:
<http://codes.iccsafe.org>
<http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/ibc/2012/>
<http://codes.iccsafe.org/California.html#2013>
I don't really know much about it yet as I haven't run into anything
specifically required by the IBC. However, I'm sure that the NFPA and
IBC will diverge at some point, making a coin toss or beer a necessary
tie breaker.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Ron D.]

These http://www.idealindustries.ca/products/test_measurement/circuit_analyzers/suretest_circuit_analyzers.php Ideal Sure Test meters are really nice especially when you manage to get them real cheap.

 

[bud--]

On 5/3/2015 12:45 PM, mroberds@att.net wrote:

amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote:
On 5/3/2015 9:59 AM, Leif Neland wrote:

Here in Denmark (Europe), a RCD-relay is mandatory in households. Is
it in your region?

No, but I don't know what a RCD-relay is. I just looked it up, I think
here we call it a GFCI, Ground Fault Current Interrupter.

I'm pretty sure RCD = GFCI too.

My understanding is that some RCDs are for shock protection, like GFCIs,
but with a trip current 30ma instead of 5mA in the US (30mA seems
really high).

In the US, the current to trip a breaker on a high current ground-fault
uses a N-G bond required at all services, with the fault current
returning to the transformer on the service neutral. Some UK power
schemes do not have the N-G bond, and the return path is through the
earth, which does not provide a low resistance path. I think the RCDs
for a service, or where everything has a RCD, are to provide a trip on
the limited-current fault to ground-earth.

Starting sometime in the 1980s, bathroom and outdoor outlets in new
construction were required to be protected with a GFCI. The required
locations have been expanded somewhat; I think they now include kitchens
and some garage outlets as well.

Most of a kitchen, all garage, within 6 ft of sinks, laundry, unfinished
basement, outside, ...

<...>

There is a newer thing that has become required in the past few years,
an Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter or AFCI. US style wiring doesn't do
much for protecting the conductors in the line cord to a lamp or
appliance; in some places it's perfectly legal to have wires inside the
wall that are 12 AWG (American Wire Gauge) (about 3.3 mm^2), on a 20
amp circuit breaker (2400 W nominal available), and then plug a lamp
with an 18 AWG (about 0.82 mm^2) cord into it. If the lamp cord gets a
dead short across the two conductors, the breaker will probably open,
but if it's only "somewhat" shorted, the breaker will happily dump
current into it for a while, which may heat up the lamp cord and start a
fire.

If the #12 wires are "somewhat" shorted you can also get a fire-causing arc.

AFCIs also trip on a loose connection ("series" arc).
And they include ground-fault protection, typically at a 30mA level,
that catches some arc-faults (and is the reason the circuit neutral has
to wire-through the arc-fault device).

The "good" reason the AFCI exists is to prevent this latter situation.
It is claimed to monitor the current drawn on the circuit, and if the
current profile suggests that an arc is happening, it opens the circuit.

The "actual" reason the AFCI exists, IMHO, is to sell $40 AFCI circuit
breakers instead of $10 regular ones. The electrical industry learned
their lessons from the GFCI; AFCIs are not available as outlets, only as
circuit breakers.

There are some questions whether AFCIs protect as well as claimed.
And a major reason code change proposals are rejected is that no
"substantiation" is provided that the change is an improvement. I have
not seen any substantiation of the improved safety provided by the
original AFCIs in bedrooms years ago.

AFCI receptacles are now available. For new wiring AFCI protection is
for both the building wiring and the plug-in loads, so receptacle-AFCIs
generally can't be used. There are places where they can be used, and
they can protect downstream wiring (as is done with GFCI receptacles).

I think the current (ha!) requirement is that AFCIs have to be installed
on outlet circuits that feed bedrooms. This will probably be expanded
over the years as well.

It has been expanded.
In the 2011 NEC essentially everything that did not require GFCI
protection requires AFCI protection.
In the 2014 NEC some locations require both AFCI and GFCI protection.


Also new in the 2011 NEC:
- replacement receptacles in areas where AFCI protection is now required
have to be AFCI protected (several methods)
- replacement receptacles where GFCI protection is now required must be
GFCI protected
(I'm sure mikek protected his outside receptacle)
- replacement receptacles in areas that now require tamper-resistant
receptacles must be tamper-resistant (that is most of the general
purpose receptacles in a dwelling)(keeps kids from putting paper-clips
in the receptacle)
- replacement receptacles in areas that now require weather-resistant
receptacles must be weather-resistant (damp locations, like outdoors)

AFCI or GFCI receptacles may have to be tamper-resistant or
weather-resistant.

The UK (and possibly other places that used to be part of the British
Empire) solves the AFCI problem by using fuses in the plugs. I think
Western Europe doesn't care that much; it's sort of like the US, but the
higher voltage means you don't get such a big difference in size between
the conductors in the wall and the conductors to an appliance. I also
think (but I'm not sure) that the line cords on appliances have slightly
better insulation than what is common in the US.

In the UK there are many "ring" circuits protected at about 30A. That
makes the fuse protection at the plug even more important.

The fuses don't necessarily protect you from arcing however. In
particular if it is a loose connection ("series" arc) the current will
be limited by the load. The AFCIs used now (but not the original ones)
can trip on an arc current of about 5A.

 

[bud--]

On 5/3/2015 9:35 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Sun, 03 May 2015 09:42:33 -0500, amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote:

It is almost as easy to test outlets with a multimeter, but this
three light device makes it a breeze.
http://tinyurl.com/q2jzw67
Mikek

Nicely done. I carry a few of those in my toolbox to test customers
outlets before I plug any expensive computahs into them. In 30+ years
of doing this, I've been shocked once and found about 3 wiring
mistakes.

You MIGHT have been able to see the missing ground connection by
putting a voltsguesser between the outlet neutral and ground
connections. There should be zero volts. If there was anything
plugged into the floating outlet at the other end of your wiring
nightmare, you would see some voltage (mostly leakage) between neutral
and ground. Even if nothing were connected, there would be some
capacitive coupling that would produce some voltage.

If a 3-light tester says a circuit is OK it probably is. But it will not
catch a high resistance ground path. 100 ohms is a really bad ground but
will test OK. If I really want to test a ground I use something like a
100W light bulb from H to G.

Also applies to meters.

If you're
measuring at the breaker box, some voltage is allowed:
https://www.mikeholt.com/technical.php?id=powerquality/unformatted/NeutralGroundVoltage

There's also a minor problem with the 3 neon lamp tester. It won't
check for an outlet that has the ground and neutral wires reversed
because they both go to the same connection in the breaker box. That's
not really a problem as either wire can probably carry the current,
but it's nice to have it done right. I've only seen this once where
someone used non-standard and apparently random color wires in an
illegal "granny unit" off a sub-panel. There were junction boxes full
of different color wires spliced together with tags on the wire ends.
Of course, all the tags had fallen off years ago. I ran away.

Also doesn't test for G connected to N at the receptacle (if there is no
supply ground). Your expensive tester should. Some of them put a pulse
H-G and look for N-G voltage, which also actually tests the ground.

And if G is connected to N, and H-N are reversed (G is now hot) an
expensive tester may not find it. It is easily found with a
"non-contact" voltage tester. Or I carry a neon test light and plug in
one lead and hold the other - capacitive current to ground will dimly
light the lamp.

GFCIs, incidentally, will trip if there is a short between N and G wires
downstream. (Doesn't require a load.)

Could you buy one of these and tell me if it's worth spending $300?
http://www.idealind.com/prodDetail.do?prodId=61-164

 

"One drawback to the outlet type GFCI in new construction is that
builders, being cheap, tend to use one GFCI to protect several outlets
that are required to be protected. This is legal and safe, but it leads
to things like: you plug something in on the back porch, it gets a
little damp, and the GFCI trips, and suddenly you don't have power in
either bathroom in your house."

There is a conflict there. For some time now it has been against code for the "debvice to be the splice". Looing at regular outlets there are usually two sets of screws or whatever connectors. At tleast in this area you can't use them in the way you migth thoink, which is one set in, and one set out to other outlets or whatever. You have to "pigtail" the wires in the box, presumably so that you do not have to break into the circuit to change the device.

There is some sense to this because of shared neutrals. Electricians have beeen killed due to shared neutrals. It is simply not practical to shut down the whole building to change a couple of outlets. and unless you personally wired the place, you have no way of knowing if you are dealing with a shared neutral and if you can actually disconnect it safely.

This flies right in the face of those outputs on most GFCI outlets. Apparently now, code here is to buy another GFCI outlet for each location. What is screwed up is that I used to generally use the GFCI output to power over the sink lights. Now I suppose I have to use the breaker. At least when you use the breaker There are no shared neutral problems. Can't be, it would trip immediately.

Had a really strange one recently. Two lights, one in the bedroom and one in the hallway. Turn one on and it is fine. Turn the other one on and it is fine. Turn both on at the same time and the GFCI breaker trips. It had to have something to do with a shared neutral. There was no short. I reverted it back to a regular breaker, screw it, these idiots had all the walls in and painted.

In fact I don't really see a reason for a GFCI in a bedroom and a hallway, except for one thing - the house it built on a slab. Shades of Florida, basement ? What is basement ? I suppose if you were in your bare feet on an aluminum ladder changing a broken (somehow) lightbulb in the cieling fixture while it is turned on (hey, they'll do that I gues) there could be a shock hazard. Usually when I climb a ladder I put my shoes on.

 

>"Having E and N reversed means that any RCD on the circuit will trip soon as a >load is plugged in making it unusable. "

I have not found that to be true of the GFCIs around here.

>"But far worse is the possibility of a lost connection in the earth conductor >further back in the circuit making the earth pin *live* on some of the outlets. "

Makes the dangers of shared neutrals sorta pale eh ? Electrocution is not just for electricians then.

 

[Tim R]

On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 12:39:28 AM UTC-4, jurb...@gmail.com wrote:

"But far worse is the possibility of a lost connection in the earth conductor >further back in the circuit making the earth pin *live* on some of the outlets. "

Makes the dangers of shared neutrals sorta pale eh ? Electrocution is not just for electricians then.

We had hot and ground reversed on an outlet at work.

The PC plugged into it had a hot chassis.

We didn't notice until we added it to the network with shielded biax and a barrel connector. I had one hand on the upstream biax where shield was hot, and the other hand on the downstream biax where shield was ground, and got that familiar tingle.

But everything ran fine up to that point. Uh, I might have said a naughty word when it happened.

 

[Phil Allison]

jurb...@gmail.com wrote:

"Having E and N reversed means that any RCD on the circuit will trip soon as a >load is plugged in making it unusable. "

I have not found that to be true of the GFCIs around here.

** But you are rabid, self confessed, drug fucked, tenth-wit with no idea if his huge ass was on fire.

And I am being kind to you.


.... Phil

 

On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 10:49:58 AM UTC-4, John Robertson wrote:

On 05/04/2015 9:35 PM, jurb6006@gmail.com wrote:
"One drawback to the outlet type GFCI in new construction is that
builders, being cheap, tend to use one GFCI to protect several outlets
that are required to be protected. This is legal and safe, but it leads
to things like: you plug something in on the back porch, it gets a
little damp, and the GFCI trips, and suddenly you don't have power in
either bathroom in your house."

There is a conflict there. For some time now it has been against code for the "debvice to be the splice". Looing at regular outlets there are usually two sets of screws or whatever connectors. At tleast in this area you can't use them in the way you migth thoink, which is one set in, and one set out to other outlets or whatever. You have to "pigtail" the wires in the box, presumably so that you do not have to break into the circuit to change the device.

There is some sense to this because of shared neutrals. Electricians have beeen killed due to shared neutrals. It is simply not practical to shut down the whole building to change a couple of outlets. and unless you personally wired the place, you have no way of knowing if you are dealing with a shared neutral and if you can actually disconnect it safely.
...
In fact I don't really see a reason for a GFCI in a bedroom and a hallway, except for one thing - the house it built on a slab. Shades of Florida, basement ? What is basement ? I suppose if you were in your bare feet on an aluminum ladder changing a broken (somehow) lightbulb in the cieling fixture while it is turned on (hey, they'll do that I gues) there could be a shock hazard. Usually when I climb a ladder I put my shoes on.


One hand on ladder, the other grabbing the light bulb
will make a conduction path...

Really? Even with wooden or fiberglass ladders?

 

In this particular area there alot of old houses that hav knob and tube wiring. I swear these guys ran one neutral for the whole house and that was it.. Of course back then people had lightbulbs and a fridge and just about nothing else. Perhaps a table radio which of course had a hot chassis.

I am surprised there weren't more electrocutions. Even then.

Now one of the biggest probles is when you go to rewire old houses. I'll tell you this, most local 38 electricians will not touch residential, except for friends and family. They can go wire a nuclear power plant (my cousin did) but you call them with a problem in yyour house wiring you are on your own.

I have done a bunch of it. changed out panels, in a couple of cases almost completely rewired the place, and there is one thing about this./ There are some things you simply cannot get to without gutting the place. In these cases it is very important to ID the neutral and peoplee DO screw this up.

It is against code to add anything to existing knob and tube, but you are allowed ro connect the knob and tube to a new source. That porch light that would require heavy construction to redo, the garage in some cases where you would have to tear all kinds of shit out to get to, a few other things.

Those little meters and doodads with the lights will not help much there. Need a Wiggie.

I have actually temporarily installed an outlet, properly ground, just hanging off the main panel for this purpose. Then I use a LONG extension cord. In fact I found out the hot and neutral had been reversed in my Mother's garage for years. I run EMT in grages and reversing the polarity is not an option, guaranteed. It is bad enough with Romaex n shit, but now you got hot pipes, and not caused by soem good Texas style chili.

Lived in an apartment a long time ago. Felt something funny when touching the fridge one day. Found a test light, by that I mean a lamp with a 100 watt bulb in it, and between the fridge body and the cold water pipe I got a full 120 volts AC. I thought a commercial building like that would have been professionally wired.

But then I remember the true definition of professional. All it means is that you get paid, there is no innate implication of competence. Same way with the word honor, what it really means is to pay. Same way with the word noble, it really doesn't, or wasn't intended to mean what alot of people think it means.

 

[John Robertson]

On 05/04/2015 9:35 PM, jurb6006@gmail.com wrote:

"One drawback to the outlet type GFCI in new construction is that
builders, being cheap, tend to use one GFCI to protect several outlets
that are required to be protected. This is legal and safe, but it leads
to things like: you plug something in on the back porch, it gets a
little damp, and the GFCI trips, and suddenly you don't have power in
either bathroom in your house."

There is a conflict there. For some time now it has been against code for the "debvice to be the splice". Looing at regular outlets there are usually two sets of screws or whatever connectors. At tleast in this area you can't use them in the way you migth thoink, which is one set in, and one set out to other outlets or whatever. You have to "pigtail" the wires in the box, presumably so that you do not have to break into the circuit to change the device.

There is some sense to this because of shared neutrals. Electricians have beeen killed due to shared neutrals. It is simply not practical to shut down the whole building to change a couple of outlets. and unless you personally wired the place, you have no way of knowing if you are dealing with a shared neutral and if you can actually disconnect it safely.
....
In fact I don't really see a reason for a GFCI in a bedroom and a hallway, except for one thing - the house it built on a slab. Shades of Florida, basement ? What is basement ? I suppose if you were in your bare feet on an aluminum ladder changing a broken (somehow) lightbulb in the cieling fixture while it is turned on (hey, they'll do that I gues) there could be a shock hazard. Usually when I climb a ladder I put my shoes on.

One hand on ladder, the other grabbing the light bulb will make a
conduction path...

John :-#(#
--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
(604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

 

[John Robertson]

On 05/03/2015 6:49 PM, Phil Allison wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:


There's also a minor problem with the 3 neon lamp tester. It won't
check for an outlet that has the ground and neutral wires reversed
because they both go to the same connection in the breaker box. That's
not really a problem as either wire can probably carry the current,
but it's nice to have it done right.


** The only reliable way to check a power outlet is to remove it from the wall and inspect the wiring visually. Only then can you be sure the E and N are the right way around and that there are no loose grub screws or signs of over heating damage.

Having E and N reversed means that any RCD on the circuit will trip soon as a load is plugged in making it unusable.

But far worse is the possibility of a lost connection in the earth conductor further back in the circuit making the earth pin *live* on some of the outlets.


.... Phil

Actually I have an electricians tool that tests if E and N are reversed.
The ECOS Accu-Test II Model 7106 from 1986 did that test (#4 of the test
procedures - Neutral and Ground Wire Reversal Test Procedure).

A picture and some info here:

http://www.machine--tools.com/By-Location-/American-Samoa-/Ecos-accutest-gfi-ground-voltage-circuit-tester.ASPX

I have one of these and the owners manual, and will scan the manual
shortly if anyone needs a copy.

As for a good background story of GFCIs:

http://ecmweb.com/content/think-gfci

John :-#)#

--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
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[Ralph Mowery]

"bud--" <null@void.com> wrote in message
news:55490284$0$44476$c3e8da3$66d3cc2f@news.astraweb.com...

In fact I don't really see a reason for a GFCI in a bedroom and a
hallway, except
for one thing - the house it built on a slab. Shades of Florida, basement
? What is
basement ? I suppose if you were in your bare feet on an aluminum ladder
changing
a broken (somehow) lightbulb in the cieling fixture while it is turned on
(hey,
they'll do that I gues) there could be a shock hazard. Usually when I
climb a
ladder I put my shoes on.

(Electricians are not likely to use a metal ladder.)

In the plant where I worked they would not allow any ladder that could
conduct electricity. When I bought one for the house it was light aluminum.
I got tird of dragging the heavy fiberglass stuff around. I did work as an
electrician in the plant. With all the metal pipes around, I thought that
the nonconducting ladders were a waste anyway for the most part. There are
all kinds of safety rules that have to be made by people that do not have
anything to do but sit behind a desk and try to justify their jobs.

 

[bud--]

On 5/4/2015 10:35 PM, jurb6006@gmail.com wrote:

"One drawback to the outlet type GFCI in new construction is that
builders, being cheap, tend to use one GFCI to protect several outlets
that are required to be protected. This is legal and safe, but it leads
to things like: you plug something in on the back porch, it gets a
little damp, and the GFCI trips, and suddenly you don't have power in
either bathroom in your house."

There is a conflict there. For some time now it has been against code for the
"debvice to be the splice". Looing at regular outlets there are usually two sets
of screws or whatever connectors. At tleast in this area you can't use them in
the way you migth thoink, which is one set in, and one set out to other outlets
or whatever. You have to "pigtail" the wires in the box, presumably so that you
do not have to break into the circuit to change the device.

For ordinary circuits, the circuit can wire-through a receptacle.

If it is a "multiwire branch circuit", with a common neutral, the
neutral can't be wired-through.

There is some sense to this because of shared neutrals. Electricians have beeen
killed due to shared neutrals. It is simply not practical to shut down the whole
building to change a couple of outlets. and unless you personally wired the place,
you have no way of knowing if you are dealing with a shared neutral and if you can
actually disconnect it safely.

For a few code cycles, multiwire branch circuits have to have a "common
disconnect" so when one circuit of a multiwire branch circuit is turned
off all the circuits are turned off. This can be done with a listed
handle tie. (If one circuit trips they don't all have to trip.) That
makes multiwires fairly impractical. And you can't use a multiwire on an
AFCI or GFCI breaker (unless you get a 120/240V breaker, which is
expensive).

This flies right in the face of those outputs on most GFCI outlets. Apparently now,
code here is to buy another GFCI outlet for each location. What is screwed up is that
I used to generally use the GFCI output to power over the sink lights. Now I suppose
I have to use the breaker. At least when you use the breaker There are no shared neutral
problems. Can't be, it would trip immediately.

There is no NEC problem wiring other loads downstream from a GFCI
receptacle and protecting them. The GFCI receptacle now has to be more
accessible than in the past.

I don't know if there are provisions enforced where you are that are
stricter than the NEC, but I suspect these requirements follow the NEC.

Had a really strange one recently. Two lights, one in the bedroom and one in the
hallway. Turn one on and it is fine. Turn the other one on and it is fine. Turn both
on at the same time and the GFCI breaker trips. It had to have something to do with a
shared neutral. There was no short. I reverted it back to a regular breaker, screw it,
these idiots had all the walls in and painted.

In fact I don't really see a reason for a GFCI in a bedroom and a hallway, except
for one thing - the house it built on a slab. Shades of Florida, basement ? What is
basement ? I suppose if you were in your bare feet on an aluminum ladder changing
a broken (somehow) lightbulb in the cieling fixture while it is turned on (hey,
they'll do that I gues) there could be a shock hazard. Usually when I climb a
ladder I put my shoes on.

(Electricians are not likely to use a metal ladder.)

 

[Phil Allison]

John Robertson wrote:

On 05/03/2015 6:49 PM, Phil Allison wrote:

** The only reliable way to check a power outlet is
to remove it from the wall and inspect the wiring
visually. Only then can you be sure the E and N are
the right way around and that there are no loose grub
screws or signs of over heating damage.

Having E and N reversed means that any RCD on the
circuit will trip soon as a load is plugged in making
it unusable.

But far worse is the possibility of a lost connection
in the earth conductor further back in the circuit making
the earth pin *live* on some of the outlets.


Actually I have an electricians tool that tests if E and N are reversed.
The ECOS Accu-Test II Model 7106 from 1986 did that test (#4 of the test
procedures - Neutral and Ground Wire Reversal Test Procedure).

** The test must involve access to more than just a power outlet - so the real earth wire can be identified and current flow in it detected or marker signal placed onto it.

One way would be to place a clamp meter around the earth wire where it appears at the panel and then connect a load of a few amps to each outlet in turn and make sure there is no reading.



..... Phil