Electrical repair report

[amdx]

I've lived in my home for 21 years and just this morning found a fault.
We have an outdoor electrical outlet, my wife wanted to plug a freezer
into it. I knew from previous use the outlet was in poor mechanical
condition, so I bought a new one to replace it.
I shut off the breaker, opened up the box and removed the outlet (in
several pieces) installed a new one and reapplied power. I got out my
handy little three light tester and it said the ground was open. I knew
I had connected the ground so figured the problem was at the other end
of the wire. The outdoor outlet is opposite an indoor kitchen outlet, I
tested that outlet and it also had an open ground.
I open up the kitchen outlet, it had 4 incoming wires, I noted there
were three ground wires twisted together (no wirenut). The fourth ground
wire went to the ground connection on the outlet, and you may have
guessed it, the other end went to the ground connection on the outdoor
outlet. So the two outlets had the grounds connected together, but were
not connected to ground.
I added a pigtail to the three other ground wires, put on a wirenut
then connected the pigtail to the outlet ground. After turning the power
back on, both outlets now test as properly wired.
I have three outdoor outlets, I suspect all were added after the
house was constructed, I'm going to test the other two right now!
It is almost as easy to test outlets with a multimeter, but this
three light device makes it a breeze.
http://tinyurl.com/q2jzw67

Mikek

 

I remember you. You're the guy with tons and tons of freezers.

I would recommend making sure they get good line volrage. Compressors tend to be more efficient at higher volatages. Also, you might want to look under the hood of a few and see if they use motor run capacitors. When they get old and start to dry out it can hurt the efficincy.

Not a big deal when you got one, but when you got a dozen of them it can screw with your bottom line.

When it comes to residential wiring I have a saying. When in doubt rip it out. I know external conduit is unsightly, I know it might not be that easy, but most of the time it is worth it. Anything with a motor. When it says 120 volts, give it 125. You'll be glad you did.

 

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:

On Sun, 03 May 2015 09:42:33 -0500, amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote:

It is almost as easy to test outlets with a multimeter, but this
three light device makes it a breeze.

The nice thing about the three-neon-lights tester is that it puts a
small amount of load on the circuit - something like 2 mA or 60 kohms
per lamp. High-impedance DMMs (many megaohms) like to see voltages that
aren't really there.

I carry a few of those in my toolbox to test customers outlets before
I plug any expensive computahs into them.

I know a guy who has an RV, and he has one always plugged into the 120 V
outlet by the kitchen sink. Apparently not all RV park power outlets
are wired the same.

Could you buy one of these and tell me if it's worth spending $300?
http://www.idealind.com/prodDetail.do?prodId=61-164

The guy who inspected this house before I bought it had one of those. I
watched over his shoulder and I thought it was pretty slick. He tried
just about every outlet in the house and you could see the measured
voltage drop go up as he got further away from the panel on a particular
circuit.

I thought it would need a huge power resistor with heatsink, vents, and
maybe a fan for the "load test" function, but apparently it only applies
the load for a few AC cycles, measures, unloads, and then doesn't let
you do another load test for a few seconds. I don't remember that he
ever had to wait for it; the time between unplugging it, walking 6 feet
to the next outlet, plugging it back in, and asking for another load
test was enough.

I believe Fluke makes a similar product but I've never seen one in use.

For as little as I would use it, I can't justify the $300 either. I
*do* have a Kill-a-watt and a $15 space heater from Wally World, and I
use those together to test voltage drop if I want to. It's more to
carry around, though.

Matt Roberds

 

amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote:

On 5/3/2015 9:59 AM, Leif Neland wrote:

Here in Denmark (Europe), a RCD-relay is mandatory in households. Is
it in your region?

No, but I don't know what a RCD-relay is. I just looked it up, I think
here we call it a GFCI, Ground Fault Current Interrupter.

I'm pretty sure RCD = GFCI too.

Starting sometime in the 1980s, bathroom and outdoor outlets in new
construction were required to be protected with a GFCI. The required
locations have been expanded somewhat; I think they now include kitchens
and some garage outlets as well.

GFCIs are available in two shapes - either as an outlet that can be
installed in a regular outlet box, or built into a circuit breaker that
goes into the main circuit breaker panel in the house. The outlet type
has to be installed as the first outlet on that circuit, and then it
will protect all the other outlets beyond it. (It has "line"/power-
source and "load"/power-users terminals that must be connected the right
way around.) The circuit breaker type just replaces the normal circuit
breaker, and then it provides both overload (usually 15 or 20 A) and
GFCI functions.

The outlet type GFCIs cost $6 or $7 at retail, while the circuit-breaker
type cost $30, so most people installing them as a retrofit choose the
outlet ones. Also, circuit breakers are not very well standardized;
circuit breaker panels from different manufacturers take different
circuit breakers. The outlet type GFCI works anywhere.

One drawback to the outlet type GFCI in new construction is that
builders, being cheap, tend to use one GFCI to protect several outlets
that are required to be protected. This is legal and safe, but it leads
to things like: you plug something in on the back porch, it gets a
little damp, and the GFCI trips, and suddenly you don't have power in
either bathroom in your house. It's not always obvious to people that
resetting the GFCI in one bathroom will fix the outlets in the other
bathroom and on the back porch. With the circuit breaker type GFCI, at
least all of the controls are in the main electrical panel for the
house, which is a more obvious place to look for faults.

There is a newer thing that has become required in the past few years,
an Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter or AFCI. US style wiring doesn't do
much for protecting the conductors in the line cord to a lamp or
appliance; in some places it's perfectly legal to have wires inside the
wall that are 12 AWG (American Wire Gauge) (about 3.3 mm^2), on a 20
amp circuit breaker (2400 W nominal available), and then plug a lamp
with an 18 AWG (about 0.82 mm^2) cord into it. If the lamp cord gets a
dead short across the two conductors, the breaker will probably open,
but if it's only "somewhat" shorted, the breaker will happily dump
current into it for a while, which may heat up the lamp cord and start a
fire.

The "good" reason the AFCI exists is to prevent this latter situation.
It is claimed to monitor the current drawn on the circuit, and if the
current profile suggests that an arc is happening, it opens the circuit.

The "actual" reason the AFCI exists, IMHO, is to sell $40 AFCI circuit
breakers instead of $10 regular ones. The electrical industry learned
their lessons from the GFCI; AFCIs are not available as outlets, only as
circuit breakers.

I think the current (ha!) requirement is that AFCIs have to be installed
on outlet circuits that feed bedrooms. This will probably be expanded
over the years as well.

The UK (and possibly other places that used to be part of the British
Empire) solves the AFCI problem by using fuses in the plugs. I think
Western Europe doesn't care that much; it's sort of like the US, but the
higher voltage means you don't get such a big difference in size between
the conductors in the wall and the conductors to an appliance. I also
think (but I'm not sure) that the line cords on appliances have slightly
better insulation than what is common in the US.

Matt Roberds

 

[Leif Neland]

I knew I had
connected the ground so figured the problem was at the other end of the wire.
The outdoor outlet is opposite an indoor kitchen outlet, I tested that outlet
and it also had an open ground.
I open up the kitchen outlet, it had 4 incoming wires, I noted there were
three ground wires twisted together (no wirenut). The fourth ground wire went
to the ground connection on the outlet, and you may have guessed it, the

This could be "interesting". If one device develops a ground fault, the
chassis on the other device is suddenly live. Ouch.
Good you found it.

Here in Denmark (Europe), a RCD-relay is mandatory in households. Is it
in your region?

Leif

--
https://www.paradiss.dk
Ting til konen eller kĂŚresten.
Eller begge.

 

[amdx]

On 5/3/2015 9:59 AM, Leif Neland wrote:

I knew I had connected the ground so figured the problem was at the
other end of the wire. The outdoor outlet is opposite an indoor
kitchen outlet, I tested that outlet and it also had an open ground.
I open up the kitchen outlet, it had 4 incoming wires, I noted there
were three ground wires twisted together (no wirenut). The fourth
ground wire went to the ground connection on the outlet, and you may
have guessed it, the

This could be "interesting". If one device develops a ground fault, the
chassis on the other device is suddenly live. Ouch.
Good you found it.

Yes, I had to explain to my wife what could happen.

Here in Denmark (Europe), a RCD-relay is mandatory in households. Is it
in your region?

Leif

No, but I don't know what a RCD-relay is. I just looked it up,
I think here we call it a GFCI, Ground Fault Current Interrupter.
In my search it looks like the fault current for GFCI is commonly less
than a RCD-relay.
I'm not sure about new construction, last I knew I think GFCIs were
mandatory in bathrooms and kitchens.

Mikek

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 03 May 2015 09:42:33 -0500, amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote:

It is almost as easy to test outlets with a multimeter, but this
three light device makes it a breeze.
http://tinyurl.com/q2jzw67
Mikek

Nicely done. I carry a few of those in my toolbox to test customers
outlets before I plug any expensive computahs into them. In 30+ years
of doing this, I've been shocked once and found about 3 wiring
mistakes.

You MIGHT have been able to see the missing ground connection by
putting a voltsguesser between the outlet neutral and ground
connections. There should be zero volts. If there was anything
plugged into the floating outlet at the other end of your wiring
nightmare, you would see some voltage (mostly leakage) between neutral
and ground. Even if nothing were connected, there would be some
capacitive coupling that would produce some voltage. If you're
measuring at the breaker box, some voltage is allowed:
<https://www.mikeholt.com/technical.php?id=powerquality/unformatted/NeutralGroundVoltage>

There's also a minor problem with the 3 neon lamp tester. It won't
check for an outlet that has the ground and neutral wires reversed
because they both go to the same connection in the breaker box. That's
not really a problem as either wire can probably carry the current,
but it's nice to have it done right. I've only seen this once where
someone used non-standard and apparently random color wires in an
illegal "granny unit" off a sub-panel. There were junction boxes full
of different color wires spliced together with tags on the wire ends.
Of course, all the tags had fallen off years ago. I ran away.

Could you buy one of these and tell me if it's worth spending $300?
<http://www.idealind.com/prodDetail.do?prodId=61-164>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[amdx]

On 5/3/2015 10:35 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Sun, 03 May 2015 09:42:33 -0500, amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote:

It is almost as easy to test outlets with a multimeter, but this
three light device makes it a breeze.
http://tinyurl.com/q2jzw67
Mikek

Nicely done. I carry a few of those in my toolbox to test customers
outlets before I plug any expensive computahs into them. In 30+ years
of doing this, I've been shocked once and found about 3 wiring
mistakes.

You MIGHT have been able to see the missing ground connection by
putting a voltsguesser between the outlet neutral and ground
connections. There should be zero volts. If there was anything
plugged into the floating outlet at the other end of your wiring
nightmare, you would see some voltage (mostly leakage) between neutral
and ground. Even if nothing were connected, there would be some
capacitive coupling that would produce some voltage. If you're
measuring at the breaker box, some voltage is allowed:
https://www.mikeholt.com/technical.php?id=powerquality/unformatted/NeutralGroundVoltage

There's also a minor problem with the 3 neon lamp tester. It won't
check for an outlet that has the ground and neutral wires reversed
because they both go to the same connection in the breaker box. That's
not really a problem as either wire can probably carry the current,
but it's nice to have it done right. I've only seen this once where
someone used non-standard and apparently random color wires in an
illegal "granny unit" off a sub-panel. There were junction boxes full
of different color wires spliced together with tags on the wire ends.
Of course, all the tags had fallen off years ago. I ran away.

Could you buy one of these and tell me if it's worth spending $300?
http://www.idealind.com/prodDetail.do?prodId=61-164

I have visited Mike Holt's site many times over the years, very good site.
I wouldn't get enough use out of that Ideal tester to make it
worthwhile, $4.98 is more in my budget. Sorry

My latest failure is with a stove my wife uses in the garage.
The front burn switch failed. Since she didn't use the rear burners, I
just swapped a good on for the bad one. Of course I needed to do a bunch
in order to get the top up high enough to see everything.
I did that and could see clearly, I marked each of the 6 wires on each
switch and also made a drawing. After reassembly the lowest position
didn't heat and she said the high position didn't get hot enough.
I don't want to take it apart again, and it is easy to justify, the
stove is old, the wires have dried out, crusty insulation, falling off
near the ends. She has one in the shed she bought 5 years ago to replace
it, (she bought it cheap in a damaged sale). So I have decreed the old
one unsafe for repair.

Mikek

 

[amdx]

On 5/3/2015 12:44 PM, jurb6006@gmail.com wrote:

I remember you. You're the guy with tons and tons of freezers.

I would recommend making sure they get good line voltage. Compressors tend to be more efficient at higher voltages.

Also, you might want to look under the hood of a few and see if they use
motor run capacitors. When they get old and start to dry out it can hurt
the efficincy.

Not a big deal when you got one, but when you got a dozen of them it can screw with your bottom line.

When it comes to residential wiring I have a saying. When in doubt rip it out.

I know external conduit is unsightly, I know it might not be that easy,
but most of the time it is worth it.

Anything with a motor. When it says 120 volts, give it 125. You'll be
glad you did.
>

Ya, this particular freezer is not on a circuit with any of the others.
I've been running all the freezers now for, 5 years, without any issues.
They have never popped a circuit breaker! I read the
electric meter dedicated to the freezers on the 1st of the month (Tax
purposes). I'm now over 70,000 kWhs.
Everything for the freezers is in PVC conduit from the sub panel.


Mikek

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 03 May 2015 11:03:06 -0500, amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote:

I have visited Mike Holt's site many times over the years, very good site.
I wouldn't get enough use out of that Ideal tester to make it
worthwhile, $4.98 is more in my budget. Sorry

I've been trying to convince the local electricians to buy one so I
can borrow it. No luck so far. I've watched the videos, read the
data sheet, and even stooped to reading the instructions, but I still
can't figure out if it would useful for the type of stuff I do. What
I really need is something like the electrical equivalent of a network
cable certifier. Push the "report" button, and it goes through all
the tests eventually producing a printed report that I can present to
the building owner. At $300, I figure I could pay for it with a few
kickbacks from referrals to the local electricians. (Note: I failed
ethics class in skool).

>My latest failure is with a stove my wife uses in the garage.

Ummm... I seem to recall that your garage is crammed full of frozen
fish in freezers. I also recall some photos of what I consider to be
rather atrocious Romex wiring snaked around the outside of the house
and garage. Now, you want to add a stove to the load? Have you
actually measured the total current drain if you turn everything on at
the same time? Have you at least tried to balance the load between
the two phases entering the house? Have you considered replacing the
Romex with something heavier, running conduit, and installing a real
sub-panel with breakers?

The front burn switch failed. Since she didn't use the rear burners, I
just swapped a good on for the bad one.

Here is a photo site you might want to browse:
<http://failblog.cheezburger.com/thereifixedit>
The site is full so such repairs. It might give you a few ideas of
what not to do.

Of course I needed to do a bunch
in order to get the top up high enough to see everything.
I did that and could see clearly, I marked each of the 6 wires on each
switch and also made a drawing.

I use a digital camera. A color picture is worth 1000 guesses.

After reassembly the lowest position
didn't heat and she said the high position didn't get hot enough.

OK, you wired it wrong. With only 2 burners, you might as well use
two toggle switches and wire each to just full-on, and off. I
actually did that once using the knob hole from the old rotary switch
to mount the toggle switches. (Excuse: I was a starving student at
the time).

I don't want to take it apart again, and it is easy to justify, the
stove is old, the wires have dried out, crusty insulation, falling off
near the ends. She has one in the shed she bought 5 years ago to replace
it, (she bought it cheap in a damaged sale). So I have decreed the old
one unsafe for repair.

Fine. You did your best to destroy it. I suggest you proclaim it
dead, go through the requisite funeral rites, and recycle it before
you're tempted to repair it again.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 3 May 2015 18:20:51 +0000 (UTC), mroberds@att.net wrote:

The nice thing about the three-neon-lights tester is that it puts a
small amount of load on the circuit - something like 2 mA or 60 kohms
per lamp. High-impedance DMMs (many megaohms) like to see voltages that
aren't really there.

If the DVG (digital volts guesser) says there's voltage, there's
voltage. It may be across a high impedance and capacitively coupled
across the wires, but it's there. Just touch the wire and see for
yourself.

I usually start poking around with the DMM only after the neon lamp
outlet tester finds something wrong, or I get shocks from the
equipment.

Drivel:
<http://www.nfpa.org/research/reports-and-statistics/fire-causes/electrical>
In 2007-2011, home electrical fires represented 13% of total home
structure fires, 18% of associated civilian deaths, 11% of
associated civilian injuries, and 20% of associated direct
property damage.
Locally, we just had the local micro-brewery/bar/restaurant burn to
the ground, most likely from an electrical fire:
<http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/general-news/20150331/cause-of-boulder-creek-brewery-fire-remains-a-mystery>

http://www.idealind.com/prodDetail.do?prodId=61-164

The guy who inspected this house before I bought it had one of those. I
watched over his shoulder and I thought it was pretty slick. He tried
just about every outlet in the house and you could see the measured
voltage drop go up as he got further away from the panel on a particular
circuit.

I thought it would need a huge power resistor with heatsink, vents, and
maybe a fan for the "load test" function, but apparently it only applies
the load for a few AC cycles, measures, unloads, and then doesn't let
you do another load test for a few seconds. I don't remember that he
ever had to wait for it; the time between unplugging it, walking 6 feet
to the next outlet, plugging it back in, and asking for another load
test was enough.

Thanks. That's good to know. I was a bit worried that it would get
hot after a few tests.

>I believe Fluke makes a similar product but I've never seen one in use.

I couldn't find anything:
<http://www.fluke.com/fluke/m2en/products/category.htm?category=IND%28FlukeProducts%29>

For as little as I would use it, I can't justify the $300 either. I
*do* have a Kill-a-watt and a $15 space heater from Wally World, and I
use those together to test voltage drop if I want to. It's more to
carry around, though.

I have several Kill-a-watt meters. They dropping "resistor" (R17)
inside kinda scares me for large loads:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/kill-a-watt.html>
For appliances, I use a clamp-on ammeter and a calculator.

Also, I gave up carrying a pile of test equipment in my car long ago.
If the customer can't give me an accurate description of the problem,
so that I know what to bring, they get to pay time and mileage for a
2nd trip. I usually need to explain that only once. The big testers
live in the office.
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Leif Neland]

mroberds@att.net formulerede spørgsmület:

The outlet type GFCIs cost $6 or $7 at retail, while the circuit-breaker
type cost $30, so most people installing them as a retrofit choose the
outlet ones. Also, circuit breakers are not very well standardized;
circuit breaker panels from different manufacturers take different
circuit breakers. The outlet type GFCI works anywhere.

Ah, the joy of standards in Europe; everything fits on a EN 50022 DIN
rail. You should try it overthere.

One drawback to the outlet type GFCI in new construction is that
builders, being cheap, tend to use one GFCI to protect several outlets
that are required to be protected. This is legal and safe, but it leads
to things like: you plug something in on the back porch, it gets a
little damp, and the GFCI trips, and suddenly you don't have power in
either bathroom in your house. It's not always obvious to people that
resetting the GFCI in one bathroom will fix the outlets in the other
bathroom and on the back porch.

I guess we are more educated here; it foes not seem to be a problem
that one GFCI covers many outlets.

Leif

--
https://www.paradiss.dk
Ting til konen eller kĂŚresten.
Eller begge.

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 03 May 2015 21:36:47 +0200, Leif Neland <leif@neland.dk>
wrote:

Ah, the joy of standards in Europe; everything fits on a EN 50022 DIN
rail. You should try it overthere.

In the US, DIN rails are common in industrial control systems,
robotics, and automation. Nothing in the home, yet.

I'm also working on installing a DIN rail on top of my bicycle
handlebars and attaching all the lighting, navigation, and computing
accessories on the rail mount. Not sure which size or height to use
yet:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=din+rail&tbm=isch>

I guess we are more educated here; it foes not seem to be a problem
that one GFCI covers many outlets.

The European RCD trips at 30-300 ma and protects outlets and lighting.
On smaller houses, it can be a "whole house" RCD, but I'm told is
usually split into sections. The RCD needs a higher trip point to
accomidate capacitive coupled "leakage" scattered around the wiring
which will cause an imbalance.

The US GFCI trips at 5 ma and is only intended to run a single outlet
or power strip. The rest of the house remains unprotected. I have
GFCI outlets on some of my portable power strips. They false trip
easily when wet or humid.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Phil Allison]

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

There's also a minor problem with the 3 neon lamp tester. It won't
check for an outlet that has the ground and neutral wires reversed
because they both go to the same connection in the breaker box. That's
not really a problem as either wire can probably carry the current,
but it's nice to have it done right.

** The only reliable way to check a power outlet is to remove it from the wall and inspect the wiring visually. Only then can you be sure the E and N are the right way around and that there are no loose grub screws or signs of over heating damage.

Having E and N reversed means that any RCD on the circuit will trip soon as a load is plugged in making it unusable.

But far worse is the possibility of a lost connection in the earth conductor further back in the circuit making the earth pin *live* on some of the outlets.


.... Phil

 

[Allodoxaphobia]

On Sun, 03 May 2015 13:26:17 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

I have GFCI outlets on some of my portable power strips. They false
trip easily when wet or humid.

Or, when you forget to uncoil the 100' extension cord when using an
outdoors GFCI...

Jonesy
--
Marvin L Jones | Marvin | W3DHJ | linux
38.238N 104.547W | @ jonz.net | Jonesy | OS/2
* Killfiling google & XXXXbanter.com: jonz.net/ng.htm

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On 3 May 2015 21:50:55 GMT, Allodoxaphobia
<knock_yourself_out@example.net> wrote:

On Sun, 03 May 2015 13:26:17 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

I have GFCI outlets on some of my portable power strips. They false
trip easily when wet or humid.

Or, when you forget to uncoil the 100' extension cord when using an
outdoors GFCI...
Jonesy

You mean that it makes a difference whether the cord is coiled or
uncoiled? I just tried it indoors with my bathroom GFCI and two heavy
50ft 12/3 cords in series. I couldn't make it trip when coiled. What
am I missing here?


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

Leif Neland <leif@neland.dk> wrote:

mroberds@att.net formulerede spřrgsmĺlet:

Also, circuit breakers are not very well standardized; circuit
breaker panels from different manufacturers take different circuit
breakers.

Ah, the joy of standards in Europe; everything fits on a EN 50022 DIN
rail. You should try it overthere.

That would cut into revenue, though! Can't have that.

If you have a General Electric or Square D (now part of Schneider)
panel, no problem, even if it's 50 years old. Every hardware store has
a choice of breakers to fit those panels. Cutler-Hammer and ITE/Siemens
are almost as available - sometimes you might have to go to two stores,
but pretty often you can get it at the first store you go to.

If you have a Federal Pacific Electric, Zinsco, or possibly an old
Bulldog Pushmatic breaker panel, you're kind of screwed, because the
breakers have inherent design flaws. The only good way out is to
replace the entire circuit breaker panel and all the breakers...
probably a few hundred dollars if you do it yourself, more if you hire
an electrician.

http://inspectapedia.com/fpe/FPE_Fires_Waiting_to_Happen.php
http://inspectapedia.com/electric/Zinsco.htm
http://inspectapedia.com/electric/Pushmatic.php

One drawback to the outlet type GFCI in new construction is that
builders, being cheap, tend to use one GFCI to protect several
outlets that are required to be protected.

I guess we are more educated here; it foes not seem to be a problem
that one GFCI covers many outlets.

I didn't think it was a big deal, myself, until I read
news:alt.home.repair and some other forums where this tended to be a
regular topic.

Standard disclaimers apply: I don't get money or other consideration
from any companies mentioned.

Matt Roberds

 

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:

Drivel:
http://www.nfpa.org/research/reports-and-statistics/fire-causes/electrical
In 2007-2011, home electrical fires represented 13% of total home
structure fires, 18% of associated civilian deaths, 11% of
associated civilian injuries, and 20% of associated direct
property damage.

I don't doubt it. My ex's brother had an electrical fire in his house
that I think was started by bad connections at the receptacle for the
electric range. It was bad enough that they had to stay at an extended-
stay hotel for at least a few weeks while repairs were made.

I wonder why they keep the electrical code a secret, though. Last
summer I was looking at adding some gas piping to my house (which I
ended up not doing) and I found that the code for that is free to read
on the Web. I think part of the answer is that the homeowner-type books
with lots of pictures are cheap at Home Depot, etc, and they usually
have one nailed to the shelf that you can look at.

I believe Fluke makes a similar product but I've never seen one in
use.

I couldn't find anything:

I poked around on Fluke's site and I couldn't find it either. False
alarm.

> For appliances, I use a clamp-on ammeter and a calculator.

I like the Kill-a-watt and the Ideal tester because I don't have to do
(as much) math. Just push the buttons and see what they say.

I also like the watt-hour function of the Kill-a-watt. Microwaving some
potatoes for dinner costs me about 2 cents. Mowing the yard with my
nuclear-powered lawnmower and string trimmer costs me about 12 cents.

Matt Roberds

 

[amdx]

On 5/3/2015 2:04 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Sun, 03 May 2015 11:03:06 -0500, amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote:

My latest failure is with a stove my wife uses in the garage.

Ummm... I seem to recall that your garage is crammed full of frozen
fish in freezers. I also recall some photos of what I consider to be
rather atrocious Romex wiring snaked around the outside of the house
and garage. Now, you want to add a stove to the load? Have you
actually measured the total current drain if you turn everything on at
the same time? Have you at least tried to balance the load between
the two phases entering the house? Have you considered replacing the
Romex with something heavier, running conduit, and installing a real
sub-panel with breakers?

I think you have someone else in mind.
I have no romex running outside my home.
We have had the stove in the garage for 15 years and it was used when we
got it. I'm not adding one I'm replacing an old stove.
I have a sunroom that houses 12 freezers. I have a subpanel with 4-20
amp breakers. All wiring is in 3/4" conduit running to outlets.
Are you having a bad day Jeff?
Oh, and it shrimp in my freezers.

The front burn switch failed. Since she didn't use the rear burners, I
just swapped a good on for the bad one.

Here is a photo site you might want to browse:
http://failblog.cheezburger.com/thereifixedit
The site is full so such repairs. It might give you a few ideas of
what not to do.

Of course I needed to do a bunch
in order to get the top up high enough to see everything.
I did that and could see clearly, I marked each of the 6 wires on each
switch and also made a drawing.

I use a digital camera. A color picture is worth 1000 guesses.

Oh, I did that to.

http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp37/Qmavam/P1010191_zpsxpjbxa4c.jpg
http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp37/Qmavam/P1010190_zpshtapoo5c.jpg
http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp37/Qmavam/P1010189_zpsxv7liykl.jpg

After reassembly the lowest position
didn't heat and she said the high position didn't get hot enough.

OK, you wired it wrong. With only 2 burners, you might as well use
two toggle switches and wire each to just full-on, and off. I
actually did that once using the knob hole from the old rotary switch
to mount the toggle switches. (Excuse: I was a starving student at
the time).

Yes, either that or messed up the connections to the burner.

I don't want to take it apart again, and it is easy to justify, the
stove is old, the wires have dried out, crusty insulation, falling off
near the ends. She has one in the shed she bought 5 years ago to replace
it, (she bought it cheap in a damaged sale). So I have decreed the old
one unsafe for repair.

Fine. You did your best to destroy it. I suggest you proclaim it
dead, go through the requisite funeral rites, and recycle it before
you're tempted to repair it again.

Never saw you act like this before, I hope things are better tomorrow.
Good evening, Mikek

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 03 May 2015 20:23:02 -0500, amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote:

> I think you have someone else in mind.

It's possible, but I do recall the multiple freezers full of fish. Oh,
it's shrimp. Still sounds familiar but now I'm not so sure.

> Are you having a bad day Jeff?

Nope. It's typical. Some bad, some good. I don't think I'm being
inordinately obnoxious but if I offended you in some way, please
forgive me. That was not my intent. I'll try to be more diplomatic
in the future.

I have a sunroom that houses 12 freezers. I have a subpanel with
4-20 amp breakers. All wiring is in 3/4" conduit running to outlets.

Ok, you did that right. I was thinking you just ran a Romex extension
cord. I take it the sunroom is wired seperately from the garage?

http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp37/Qmavam/P1010191_zpsxpjbxa4c.jpg
http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp37/Qmavam/P1010190_zpshtapoo5c.jpg
http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp37/Qmavam/P1010189_zpsxv7liykl.jpg

OK. I see the problem. If you want to put it back the way it was,
you'll probably need the marked wires. However, it does look rather
rusty and with rotted insulation. Might be a good time or excuse for
a replacement.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558