Electrical licensing FWIW.

[Phil Allison]

"fritz"

( snip piles of putrid, irrational crap)


** This wanker is a DANGEROUS LUNATIC !!

 

[Sylvia Else]

On 7/12/2010 12:12 PM, Phil Allison wrote:

"fritz"

( snip piles of putrid, irrational crap)


** This wanker is a DANGEROUS LUNATIC !!

The links in the article seem to be broken, but if you strip off the
siliconship prefix, one of the links is

http://www.energysafety.govt.nz/templates/Page____17682.aspx

which does indeed give some advice on how to do the work safely.

Clearly, people can make mistakes, and I suppose one must accept that
those with less experience are more likely to do so. But the Australian
approach is to regulate to prevent most people from doing the work, and,
importantly, then assume that people will comply with the law. The NZ
approach is to accept that some people will do their own electrical
work, and then attempt to instruct people in how to do it safely.

It is far from obvious that the Australian approach results in greater
overall safety.

Sylvia.

 

[Phil Allison]

"Stupider than Anyone Else Alive"


( snip piles of putrid, irrational crap)


** This wanker is a DANGEROUS LUNATIC !!




..... Phil

 

[fritz]

"Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote in message news:8m5g04F5o6U1@mid.individual.net...

"fritz"

( snip piles of putrid, irrational crap)


** This wanker is a DANGEROUS LUNATIC !!

Typical reponse from the paranoid toaster. boy.

You ignore the basic information.
You are clueless, as expected.

Read this in betwen your strokes - you are obviously preoccupied with wanking

http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_110635/article.html

 

[kreed]

On Dec 7, 9:10 am, "Metro" <stand@attention> wrote:

"Sylvia Else" <syl...@not.here.invalid> wrote in message

news:8m459jFtt1U1@mid.individual.net...

On 6/12/2010 11:50 PM, kreed wrote:

The unqualified person in question may be prosecuted also ?

In NSW, at least, there are limits on how long after the work is done that
prosecutions can be started.

In any case, proof will be difficult to come by unless the suspected
person cooperates.

Sylvia.

After reading the replies to the subject in question apart from a couple of
replies, the old adage applies viz 'Ignorance Is Bliss'. Of course there are
rip off merchants and tradies that don't give stuff. But all in all the
majority of licensed sparkies are competent and trustworthy.  The water
mains in my street is to be replaced. Would any of you 'know alls' know why
before any pipes are cut an electrician must check the switchboard at each
dwelling. A licensed sparkie would tell you..........A plumber might not
know either.

Metro.....

It would be to check if there are any mains earths still connected to
the water main as this was common practice
in the days of galvanised water pipe. Later they a separate earthing
stake due to the widespread use of non-conductive
PVC pipe for water.

 

[Phil Allison]

"fritz"

( snip piles of putrid, irrational crap)


** This wanker is a DANGEROUS LUNATIC !!

 

[kreed]

On Dec 7, 8:44 am, "T.T." <tony...@bigpond.com> wrote:

"Tom" <t...@no.spam.invalid> wrote in message

news:idjld0$pa8$1@news.eternal-september.org...

On 7/12/2010 4:42 AM, T.T. wrote:
I know of two people who believed they were capable of doing minor
wiring.
The first one was the guy who wired my house. He fitted nearly all the
switches so that they interrupted the neutral.
He got away with it.
The second guy was the one who believed that switching off the light was
all
he needed to do before he  wired in another light fitting.
Of course, had he not been working on the wiring installed by the first
guy,
he would have got away with it too.
He fell off the ladder, spectacularly, and had a crook shoulder for
nearly a
year from the electrical shock itself.

In early 80s I bought an old house that was professionally rewired (I was
presented with invoices from electrical company). All light switches
interrupted neutral and live was present at light fitting all the time.
Luckily I don't have a license but enough brains to check things before I
touch them.

Couple of years ago my workmate bought a nearly new house and just for fun
checked the power points with a Dick Smith (or Jaycar) test plug - it
turned out almost half of his house had earth wires connected together but
floating free. Some licensed dick forgot to run the earth wire to the
switchboard or to the other earthed power points.

I've seen many more examples of licensed stuff ups.

For me it proves that lot of those who have license don't give a shit
about safety and the most dangerous are the stupid cunts who have a
license because they think they know it best.

Tom

Another strange one: I was crawling above the ceiling in a very old terrace
in Melbourne and noticed lots of fairly robust, uninsulated twisted copper
wire laid in grooves in 2 inch by 1 inch planks. The grooves were about a
quarter inch wide and perhaps a bit deeper than a quarter inch. The wire was
a bit like the uninsulated copper earth wire that you sometimes see clamped
to a pipe driven into theground, and I assumed it was an earth. But why in a
groove, in pairs, with evidence that the grooves had one day been covered? I
didn't touch them and it quickly became obvious they were the wires to the
light fittings.
Was this at one time the norm, or was it the ultimate bodgy installation?

Haven't seen that one, but have seen uninsulated wire in ceilings on
small ceramic insulators. Insulated wires
would come off this and run down walls to power sockets, light
switches/fittings etc. (similar to how insulated wires to homes tap
off from uninsulated street power lines).

Friend discovered this in a very old "queenslander" house he bought
after trying to track down the source of a particularly smelly dead
rodent.
Turned out that this wiring setup had been doing an excellent job of
electrocuting rats, possums and even a carpet snake.

Luckily he had some electrical knowledge, had some idea what it was,
and didn't touch it.

AS he was going to have the house rewired anyway, as the fusebox was
very ancient, had only one power circuit, and there were not enough
power points, he simply had it done sooner - by a licensed electrician
of course.

 

[Clifford Heath]

T.T. wrote:

Another strange one: I was crawling above the ceiling in a very old terrace
in Melbourne and noticed lots of fairly robust, uninsulated twisted copper
wire laid in grooves in 2 inch by 1 inch planks.
Was this at one time the norm, or was it the ultimate bodgy installation?

I've seen this too, but with woven insulation and smaller wood dimensions.
A federation house in Collingwood... The channels were machine-manufactured
and I believe would have been widespread when installed.

Clifford Heath.

 

[F Murtz]

terryc wrote:

T.T. wrote:
was it the ultimate bodgy installation?

Bare copper wire must have been cheap at some stage.
Machine routed wood?

IME, really old wires are heavy twisted strands in rubber(goes very
brittle with age) and with a cloth covering(red or black) and inside
metal conduit.


VIR vulcanised india rubber, and before that paper insulated covered in

lead.

 

[F Murtz]

fritz wrote:

"Phil Allison"<phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote in message news:8m4u27Fq4U1@mid.individual.net...

"fritz"

Silicon Chip exposed the fallacy of 'safety' lies that are used to justify a
ridiculous position.

** SC did no such thing - you lying prick.

Don't call me a lying prick, toaster boy. Do you have an electricians ticket ?
If you don't, then you were working ILLEGALLY on your toasters.

I think you will find that you do not need a license to repair toasters
(at least in NSW)

You obviously did not read what SC had to say on this subject.

http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_101731/article.html
Quote
"OK, so how have electricians reacted to this campaign?
On the whole, they have been utterly negative.
They generally refuse to accept the fact that most western countries:
(a) permit home-owners to do mains wiring and appliance repairs; and
(b) have a better safety record than Australia’s.
While denying these facts they go on to claim that conditions in Australia
are somehow more dangerous than elsewhere."
unquote
Read the rest of the SC argument for DIY wiring online.



The 'safety' argument is rubbish.

** Absolute, dangerous bullshit.

It is a FACT, toaster boy, that countries with DIY wiring have a BETTER
safety record than Australia. Queensland is particularly bad. When you
stop DIY because a bunch of electricians want to keep a monopoly you
create a situation where MORE people are killed by electrical faults.
That is proven, Australia has a higher fatality rate than NZ or any of the
other countries that allow DIY wiring.



There are many countries where people can install wiring etc.


** With a bunch of restrictions and many rules to be followed for it to be legal.

They still allow DIY, toaster boy. Anyway, the point is that if you ban DIY
the public are deprived of the info to carry out the work safely.
"In countries where it is legal for home-owners to do their own wiring,
information on how to do it is freely available.
For instance, the New Zealand government sells "code of practice" booklets
to home-owners there (NZ$5 each), to provide guidance on various aspects
of electrical wiring and appliance repairs. So while ever it is illegal in Australia
for home-owners to do their own domestic wiring, the information on how to
do it is likely to be unavailable."
http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_101731/article.html



- those countries DO NOT have a safety problem.


** They have the same problems as anywhere when electrical work is carried out by a fuckwit.

What a stupid comment.
The rate of deaths is much lower in NZ or other countries that permit DIY wiring
than in Australia, toaster boy. As Silicon Chip pointed out, I cannot understand
how you could have completly misunderstood what SC said on this subject.




So the safety argument is proven bullshit - the facts PROVE it is crap.


** More utterly insane bollocks .... yawn.

Dream on, toaster boy. Look up the SC website. Search for 'wiring regulations'.



Wiring a GPO does not require a union ticket - all you need is some basic
information.
http://www.energysafety.govt.nz/templates/Page____17682.aspx


** That page outlines the REAL situation in NZ and elsewhere.

It is FULL of dire warnings, restrictions and rules to be followed

Yes, of course it does. Nobody is suggesting you should attempt DIY
wiring without information. The NZ website shows how DIY wiring should
work in a country without a totalitarian electricians union, as was clearly
explained in Silicon Chip.

 

[Metro]

"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.here.invalid> wrote in message
news:8m5drdFr4hU1@mid.individual.net...

On 7/12/2010 10:10 AM, Metro wrote:
"Sylvia Else"<sylvia@not.here.invalid> wrote in message
news:8m459jFtt1U1@mid.individual.net...
On 6/12/2010 11:50 PM, kreed wrote:

The unqualified person in question may be prosecuted also ?

In NSW, at least, there are limits on how long after the work is done
that
prosecutions can be started.

In any case, proof will be difficult to come by unless the suspected
person cooperates.

Sylvia.

After reading the replies to the subject in question apart from a couple
of
replies, the old adage applies viz 'Ignorance Is Bliss'. Of course there
are
rip off merchants and tradies that don't give stuff. But all in all the
majority of licensed sparkies are competent and trustworthy. The water
mains in my street is to be replaced. Would any of you 'know alls' know
why
before any pipes are cut an electrician must check the switchboard at
each
dwelling. A licensed sparkie would tell you..........A plumber might not
know either.

Metro.....



It should be noted that in my original reply I said

"If there were approved courses and accreditation for performing trivial
jobs"

I have not suggested that people should just assume they know what they're
doing, nor that a short course would be sufficient to allow a person
safely to perform high voltage wiring at the top of power poles.

But basic home wiring is not difficult, and I can't see any good reason
why there shouldn't be courses available that teach people how to do this
safely, examinations to check that they've learned it, and a certificate
that allows them to do it lawfully.

It's understandable that qualified electricians want to maintain their
monopoly over this work, but far from clear that it's justified on safety
grounds.

Sylvia.But basic home wiring is not difficult

I ask you again. Where do you draw the line? Especially with a statement

that you make i.e.; ' But basic home wiring is not difficult'. In your
opinion maybe. On what basis do you make that statement. I maintain not to
most folk. On the basis of the many requests that I get.
'Just put a dimmer in mate and it doesn't work. Has it got instructions with
it? Yeah, but I don't understand them'. How many times do you hear of folk
that can't put 'flat packs' together? Or Barbie Vans? Many. As for folk
going to do courses, a joke. The average Jo Blow couldn't be bothered. It's
just not in their nature.............
I won't reply for a while we are off to restore supplies and maybe some
rewires to dwellings in the flooded areas. Any one want to come and help?
Oh sorry you're not licensed.........

 

[Sylvia Else]

On 7/12/2010 3:45 PM, Metro wrote:

"Sylvia Else"<sylvia@not.here.invalid> wrote in message
news:8m5drdFr4hU1@mid.individual.net...
On 7/12/2010 10:10 AM, Metro wrote:
"Sylvia Else"<sylvia@not.here.invalid> wrote in message
news:8m459jFtt1U1@mid.individual.net...
On 6/12/2010 11:50 PM, kreed wrote:

The unqualified person in question may be prosecuted also ?

In NSW, at least, there are limits on how long after the work is done
that
prosecutions can be started.

In any case, proof will be difficult to come by unless the suspected
person cooperates.

Sylvia.

After reading the replies to the subject in question apart from a couple
of
replies, the old adage applies viz 'Ignorance Is Bliss'. Of course there
are
rip off merchants and tradies that don't give stuff. But all in all the
majority of licensed sparkies are competent and trustworthy. The water
mains in my street is to be replaced. Would any of you 'know alls' know
why
before any pipes are cut an electrician must check the switchboard at
each
dwelling. A licensed sparkie would tell you..........A plumber might not
know either.

Metro.....



It should be noted that in my original reply I said

"If there were approved courses and accreditation for performing trivial
jobs"

I have not suggested that people should just assume they know what they're
doing, nor that a short course would be sufficient to allow a person
safely to perform high voltage wiring at the top of power poles.

But basic home wiring is not difficult, and I can't see any good reason
why there shouldn't be courses available that teach people how to do this
safely, examinations to check that they've learned it, and a certificate
that allows them to do it lawfully.

It's understandable that qualified electricians want to maintain their
monopoly over this work, but far from clear that it's justified on safety
grounds.

Sylvia.But basic home wiring is not difficult

I ask you again. Where do you draw the line? Especially with a statement
that you make i.e.; ' But basic home wiring is not difficult'. In your
opinion maybe. On what basis do you make that statement. I maintain not to
most folk. On the basis of the many requests that I get.
'Just put a dimmer in mate and it doesn't work. Has it got instructions with
it? Yeah, but I don't understand them'. How many times do you hear of folk
that can't put 'flat packs' together? Or Barbie Vans? Many.

And what proportion of that is the total? Naturally, people are not
going to be phoning you up and saying "Just put a dimmer in mate, and it
works perfectly." The people who call you having failed to install
something are by definition those who can't do it, so they're not a
representative sample.

As for folk

going to do courses, a joke. The average Jo Blow couldn't be bothered. It's
just not in their nature.............

In which case the situation for them would be no different from what it
is now - they'd be doing the work unlawfully. The fact that some people
would continue to break the law is not a reason not to make such courses
available to those who want to know how to do the job, and to be able to
do so lawfully.

I won't reply for a while we are off to restore supplies and maybe some
rewires to dwellings in the flooded areas. Any one want to come and help?
Oh sorry you're not licensed.........

Don't have to be provided you're supervising (in NSW, don't know about
elsewhere).

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/hba1989128/s14.html

Subsection (2).

Sylvia.

 

[Dianci Maichong]

On Tue, 07 Dec 2010 10:15:52 +1100, terryc
<newsninespam-spam@woa.com.au> wrote:

Dianci Maichong wrote:
who stand their ground on matters of safety

Yawn, who hasn't been done over by someone squarking "safety".
highly restricted trade leads to high prices and low quality work.

Of course, someone of your calibre would be well acquainted, if not
informed, about the current protocols of CPR.

Might be a good idea to polish your pathetic preferred predilection.

 

[Metro]

"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.here.invalid> wrote in message
news:8m5u4rF5s6U1@mid.individual.net...

8<---------------------------- ------------------------------

Don't have to be provided you're supervising (in NSW, don't know about
elsewhere).

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/hba1989128/s14.html

Subsection (2).

Sylvia.

We are.
Thanks for the discussion. It has been an argument in this country for
years. My main gripe is that the difference in rules,regulations and
licenses from state to state. 'tis a farce. I'm just about to retire and
have seen many a change in tradies these past years. I can honestly say that
standard of workmanship is the worse that I have ever seen. Possible because
that all jobs are no longer tested by an authority. It is all tested on a
random basis. Very random...........Got to go.

Metro.........

 

[Sylvia Else]

On 8/12/2010 10:35 AM, Metro wrote:

I can honestly say that
standard of workmanship is the worse that I have ever seen. Possible because
that all jobs are no longer tested by an authority. It is all tested on a
random basis. Very random...........Got to go.

Perhaps that explains why I have had to call tradesmen back to do things
properly.

Once when air-conditioning installers had just laid cables loose across
the roof space - I made them come back and anchor them properly. The
same mob, incidentally, removed a tile from my roof during their work,
and neglected to put it back, letting the rain in. The cost of a
building inspector to check for damage got deducted from their bill.

Another time was when the electricians and gas-fitters installing a
kitchen left the gas pipes for the stove unlawfully obstructing the
power socket that had been installed for the same stove.

It should be noted that in both cases, they were subcontractors, or
perhaps employees. The electricians I've contracted with directly have
all been very concientious, as far as I can tell. Maybe that says
something, though I'm not sure exactly what.

Sylvia

 

[F Murtz]

Sylvia Else wrote:

On 8/12/2010 10:35 AM, Metro wrote:
I can honestly say that
standard of workmanship is the worse that I have ever seen. Possible
because
that all jobs are no longer tested by an authority. It is all tested on a
random basis. Very random...........Got to go.

Perhaps that explains why I have had to call tradesmen back to do things
properly.

Once when air-conditioning installers had just laid cables loose across
the roof space - I made them come back and anchor them properly. The
same mob, incidentally, removed a tile from my roof during their work,
and neglected to put it back, letting the rain in. The cost of a
building inspector to check for damage got deducted from their bill.

Cables can be laid without fixing if certain rules are complied with.

Another time was when the electricians and gas-fitters installing a
kitchen left the gas pipes for the stove unlawfully obstructing the
power socket that had been installed for the same stove.

It should be noted that in both cases, they were subcontractors, or
perhaps employees. The electricians I've contracted with directly have
all been very concientious, as far as I can tell. Maybe that says
something, though I'm not sure exactly what.

Sylvia

 

[Sylvia Else]

On 8/12/2010 12:35 PM, F Murtz wrote:

Sylvia Else wrote:
On 8/12/2010 10:35 AM, Metro wrote:
I can honestly say that
standard of workmanship is the worse that I have ever seen. Possible
because
that all jobs are no longer tested by an authority. It is all tested
on a
random basis. Very random...........Got to go.

Perhaps that explains why I have had to call tradesmen back to do things
properly.

Once when air-conditioning installers had just laid cables loose across
the roof space - I made them come back and anchor them properly. The
same mob, incidentally, removed a tile from my roof during their work,
and neglected to put it back, letting the rain in. The cost of a
building inspector to check for damage got deducted from their bill.

Cables can be laid without fixing if certain rules are complied with.

I'm pretty sure that doesn't include just laying them loose across the
tops of the ceiling structure and insulation batts where they're likely
to be trodden on and tripped over by anyone who's in the roof space.

Sylvia.

 

[kreed]

On Dec 8, 10:24 am, Sylvia Else <syl...@not.here.invalid> wrote:

On 8/12/2010 10:35 AM, Metro wrote:

I can honestly say that
standard of workmanship is the worse that I have ever seen. Possible because
that all jobs are no longer tested by an authority. It is all tested on a
random basis. Very random...........Got to go.

Perhaps that explains why I have had to call tradesmen back to do things
properly.

Once when air-conditioning installers had just laid cables loose across
the roof space - I made them come back and anchor them properly. The
same mob, incidentally, removed a tile from my roof during their work,
and neglected to put it back, letting the rain in. The cost of a
building inspector to check for damage got deducted from their bill.

Another time was when the electricians and gas-fitters installing a
kitchen left the gas pipes for the stove unlawfully obstructing the
power socket that had been installed for the same stove.

It should be noted that in both cases, they were subcontractors, or
perhaps employees. The electricians I've contracted with directly have
all been very concientious, as far as I can tell. Maybe that says
something, though I'm not sure exactly what.

Sylvia

I have noticed that most people now, especially younger ones seem to
have little
in the way of common sense or interest. Most would have to be
supervised the entire
time in order to ensure nothing goes wrong.

Another common thing now is that if someone does something wrong on a
job, even an
obvious thing, and you instruct not to do it, you will find that the
next hour they will just
do it again, you tell again, they do again. It gets to the point of
really having to go off several times
just to get it through their thick skull.

I hate it.

 

[Tom]

On 8/12/2010 12:11 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:

I'm pretty sure that doesn't include just laying them loose across the
tops of the ceiling structure and insulation batts where they're likely
to be trodden on and tripped over by anyone who's in the roof space.

Sylvia.
That's how its done in QLD, every house I've seen including mine which

is only 1 year old.

Tom

 

[Sylvia Else]

On 8/12/2010 4:06 PM, Tom wrote:

On 8/12/2010 12:11 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:

I'm pretty sure that doesn't include just laying them loose across the
tops of the ceiling structure and insulation batts where they're likely
to be trodden on and tripped over by anyone who's in the roof space.

Sylvia.
That's how its done in QLD, every house I've seen including mine which
is only 1 year old.

Tom

No doubt, because it's quickest and therefore cheapest. But most of the
roof space is deemed to be a place where wiring is likely to be
disturbed, because there's more than 60cm of vertical space. The wiring
rules manage to be rather vague about the ramifications, but wiring laid
loose across the structure and batts is clearly subject to potential
damage that the rules require be protected against.

Sylvia.