Electric Cars Not Yet Viable

[Winfield Hill]

Tom Gardner wrote...

I, and many other people, loathe paying for
parking and prefer to walk a few hundred yards.

Combustion cars may be obsolete, replaced by EVs,
but then all cars are obsolete, in cities anyway.
But awwkk, I still prefer top drive.


--
Thanks,
- Win

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 24/06/19 10:16, Winfield Hill wrote:

Tom Gardner wrote...

Nowhere near as sexy/sleek/stylish as a modern glider.

Hah, talk about an EV being crippled w/o a big charger,
your glider is crippled w/o another entire airplane!

Not really They can
- fly higher than commercial airliners (UK record 37kft)
- faster than light aircraft (150kt peak, up to 100kt
average with a good pilot )
- 300km is a fun jaunt, >1000km the UK record (top to
bottom of Scotland, twice)
- very aerobatic: even trainers do +3.5G -1G, and you
normally do some aerobatic maneuvers before going
solo (at 14yo)
- look like they are /right/ in the same way as swifts
and racing eights look like perfect birds and boats
- and are /fun/

But I wouldn't want to rely on one if I had to get to
a meeting a long way away.

Mind you, that's also true with some cars I had when young,
and also with EVs!

 

[Winfield Hill]

John Larkin wrote...

A weatherproof, enclosed drone with passengers
and luggage isn't going to make it very far.

An item like that will be an airplane, not a drone.

Cape Air is adding a few dozen all-electric planes
to its fleet, for its short-haul passenger routes.
They expect to save $400 in aviation fuel per trip,
compared to $10 for the electricity fillups. With
many trips/day the E-planes will pay for themselves.


--
Thanks,
- Win

 

On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 12:30:22 AM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:

On Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 9:46:43 PM UTC-4, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
On Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 8:41:53 PM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:
And if there is no quantum leap in battery technology, they may never be
viable.


https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-06-23/inconvenient-truth-electric-cars



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This message may be freely reproduced without limit or charge only via
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protocols constitutes acceptance of this condition.

I was looking at the new Jaguar EV400 at the mall here today. I have
to say, it's the first electric car that really looks hot. Zero to 60
in 4.5 seconds, 235 mile range. Really sharp, beautifully styled,
sleek. All yours for $89K. You do get a fed tax credit of $7500 to
help with that..... In which case i guess it's comparable to similar
MB, BMW, etc.

Bad news is of course the 235 mile range and the charging time.
It takes 10 hours to get to 80% charge, 13 hours for full charge.
IDK what that's connected to, but looks like it's 30A at 240V.
With a 50Kw DC source, it can be charged to 80% in 85 mins.
Of course 50KW is more than the full capacity of a 200A service.
So, sadly it doesn't sound practical to me. I couldn't get from
NY to Boston or DC on a full charge. And even if you coasted in
their on fumes, instead of having a car to do things with, you have
one to keep plugged in somewhere, charging. I can see it as an
expensive toy, an around town car, a commuting car for mostly fixed
trips. But it's impractical for your only driving car.

Not sure what's impractical.

Of course not, because you've had so much KoolAid, you've lost all
objectivity. I just told you what's impractical, you can't get from
the NY/NJ area to DC or Boston. You might just get to one or the other
on fumes, depending on where you live and if you're lucky. And if you
do, then you need to charge it before you can go out for dinner.
Park it on the street in some free parking, parking that's hard to
find, it ain't charging there. Who would
put up with that, when an ICE car has no such severe limitation?
And forget about using it to drive to Vermont to go skiing, which at
5 hours is already a long trip.




> I can't believe they built a car that can only be charged at 50 kW.

I didn't say that they did. The sticker didn't have any info on it.
I googled for the car specs online and that was the fastest that came
up. But I just googled online and all I see anywhere near me that's
fast is this:

"Tesla's Supercharger network is for the Tesla vehicles only. Owners enjoy a full charge in under an hour." And that's at one shopping mall and you
aren't plugging the Jaguar in there. Not many other locations either,
elementary schools, Board of Education, some municipal offices, lots of
electric car dealers. Real convenient, eh? And little to no information
on what the charging capability is. Must be fun to explore and hope to
get lucky....



I think you are looking at other than the current chargers. Electrify America (EA) is building

is building <> exists


a network of 350 W chargers compatible with the European connector. It's hard to imagine they would build a car that won't use more than a seventh of that power.

You can install a 240 volt 50 amp outlet in your garage that will charge at 12 kW, so around 6 hours for this car worst case. Plug it in at night when you are sleeping and dreaming of driving your car and you will never visit a gas station again.

I'd rather visit a gas station once a week that have to plug the car
in every night. Many nights I just leave the car in the front drive,
not in the garage, for convenience.

That's one of the big advantages of EVs, avoiding the gas fumes of service stations... well, most of the time.

More electric car derangement syndrome.

That reminds me. I drove by the mall today and they are installing Superchargers in Frederick where I really would like to use them. Awesome! I'm so glad Tesla is being serious about continuing to build their charging network. That's a very big factor why they've sold 100's of thousands of model S and X and many more of the model 3s. It's about the charging, stupid!

Yes, exactly whey they are totally impractical as your only car.



That's why Tesla has sold over 600,000 vehicles to date and will continue to sell nearly 100,000 per quarter.

Screw Tesla, who cares. If all the taxpayers were not subsidizing them,
they would have been out of business a long time ago. And Musk should
be in jail for the fraud he's perpetrated with that solar roof shingle
BS.





--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Winfield Hill]

Tom Gardner wrote...

Nowhere near as sexy/sleek/stylish as a modern glider.

Hah, talk about an EV being crippled w/o a big charger,
your glider is crippled w/o another entire airplane!


--
Thanks,
- Win

 

[Winfield Hill]

Rick C wrote...

There is a company who thinks there is a market for inductive
charging taxis at the stands where they pick up passengers.
They have a product that seems to work pretty well and they
claim it is so efficient the losses are lower than with a
direct cable!

That claim is totally bogus. And it's a stupid claim
to make, completely not necessary to sell their product.
I found a lot of their hype stupid, but it does appear
their engineers have done a good job and it makes sense.


--
Thanks,
- Win

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 7:49:00 AM UTC+2, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:

John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote in
news:qnm0he9eco3tvkoa5qambgeotdd7gf6qvt@4ax.com:

On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 04:34:43 +0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
news:686b0b30-c6fa-4a03-b58e-9994002a7bd8@googlegroups.com:

If you actually were interested in information rather than BS,
you would read the article with a critical mind.

In the seventies there was not even a single thought about an
electric powered RC helicopter, much less multi-motor quad
copters.

Now, they are talking about mass producing a pilotless whirly
bird
taxi srvice.

Folks are already buying up rooftop landing pad space leases.

High-end battery-powered drones can stay in the air about 20
minutes, with no payload except a small camera. A weatherproof,
enclosed drone with passengers and luggage isn't going to make it
very far.



Have you seen the units in the news recently? They fly forward at
about 100 knots.

Other countries will advance faster than America will. We are too
regulatory prone.

It's not that the US is particularly enhtusiastic about regulation, but rather that the US lobbying system is designed to leave people who are making a lot of money out of a particular market free to set up regulations that make it difficult for innovative competitors to get into the markets that are making the current generation of fat cats all that money.

> We should have already been back to the Moon.

Perhaps, but so far there doesn't seem to be a lot of money to be made up there.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[John Doe]

But of course electric cars are viable. Depends on the need.

It's a bird! It's a plane! No, it's just a troll...

--
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From: Cursitor Doom <curd notformail.com
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Electric Cars Not Yet Viable
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 00:41:49 -0000 (UTC)
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And if there is no quantum leap in battery technology, they may never be
viable.


https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-06-23/inconvenient-truth-electric-cars



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This message may be freely reproduced without limit or charge only via
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[Bill Sloman]

On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 7:17:27 AM UTC+2, Rick C wrote:

On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 1:02:52 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 00:41:49 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
curd@notformail.com> wrote:


And if there is no quantum leap in battery technology, they may never be
viable.


https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-06-23/inconvenient-truth-electric-cars

A gasoline pump moves about 10 GPM, which is equivalent to around 20
megawatts electrical. A car can fill up with gasoline in a few
minutes. Mine typically takes a minute or so.

If it takes an hour to fast-charge an electric car, the stall is
occupied for an hour. Or more if the owner doesn't immediately move
the car when it's charged. That's going to take some serious real
estate, and some serious waiting times.

Having more electric cars, even 25%, is going to need some major
logistics.

Why doesn't this guy get that EVs don't need a service station on every corner? Is he really that stupid or just obstinate?

Here, John, in case you are having trouble reading the small print...

EVS DON'T NEED CHARGING STATIONS WHEN PEOPLE CAN CHARGE AT HOME!!!

Did that get through?

Wow!

According to Bill, cars spend 95% of their time sitting. So there is a lot of time available to charge cars.

It's not "according to me". It's according to the people who have spent the time to look at it carefully. I provided links to my sources in the thread you are referring to. It does seem to be a widely accepted figure.

EVs use parking spaces when they charge, existing parking spaces. Gas pumps are made so you can pull through so lots of wasted space. Turn a 16 pump Sheets into an EV charging point and I bet you can get 30 or 40 charging spaces. I think Tesla actually has a station with 40 chargers.

They install nearly all Superchargers in existing parking decks and parking lots. No additional real estate needed! So maybe those gas stations can be blown up and turned into parks! Wouldn't that be awesome?

Not awesome perhaps, but a useful spot of urban improvement.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 24/06/19 10:31, Winfield Hill wrote:

Tom Gardner wrote...

I, and many other people, loathe paying for
parking and prefer to walk a few hundred yards.

Combustion cars may be obsolete, replaced by EVs,
but then all cars are obsolete, in cities anyway.
But awwkk, I still prefer top drive.

Not in central London you wouldn't, at least if you
have any sense Boston is trivial by comparison.

My preferred mode of transport in central London
is coach/train to the general area, then folding
bicycle to the specific destinations. Not in other
cities, though, since the traffic is moving faster.

EV charging will be problematic in London and many
cities for a long time to come; see my previous
posts with google streetviews illustrating why.
I think even Rick C might have got that message.

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 11:16:27 AM UTC+2, Winfield Hill wrote:

Tom Gardner wrote...

Nowhere near as sexy/sleek/stylish as a modern glider.

Hah, talk about an EV being crippled w/o a big charger,
your glider is crippled w/o another entire airplane!

Not necessarily. You can get them into the air with a cable tow. It takes a while to get the end of the cable from the winch back to the next glider in the queue to be launched, but it is quicker than landing a tow plane and hooking it up to next glider in the queue. For the avid do-it-yourselfer there are bungee cables, which you stretch yourself - one at time, and for the particularly avid there are scheme that you let wind them all up into glider once it has taken off.

Hang-gliders just jump off cliffs and the tops of steep hills.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 24/06/19 10:16, Winfield Hill wrote:

Tom Gardner wrote...

Nowhere near as sexy/sleek/stylish as a modern glider.

Hah, talk about an EV being crippled w/o a big charger,
your glider is crippled w/o another entire airplane!

Oh yes, I forgot. We usually /don't/ use other airplanes.

Here we launch them like kites: a mile long steel hawser
connected to a 440HP engine, 0-50kt in 5s, climb with
your feet higher than your head, and 45s after starting
you are at 2000ft. It only uses a cupful of LPG.

A rather neat still picture of a launch:
https://www.airplane-pictures.net/image8262.html

Or if you prefer moving pictures, Jon's first solo
on his 14th birthday:
https://youtu.be/rqQMuHbjJ2M?t=158
but only the next 60s unless /really/ interested!

 

[John Doe]

Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

Winfield Hill wrote:
Tom Gardner wrote...

Nowhere near as sexy/sleek/stylish as a modern glider.

Hah, talk about an EV being crippled w/o a big charger,
your glider is crippled w/o another entire airplane!

Oh yes, I forgot. We usually /don't/ use other airplanes.

Here we launch them like kites: a mile long steel hawser
connected to a 440HP engine, 0-50kt in 5s, climb with
your feet higher than your head, and 45s after starting
you are at 2000ft. It only uses a cupful of LPG.

A rather neat still picture of a launch:
https://www.airplane-pictures.net/image8262.html

Or if you prefer moving pictures, Jon's first solo
on his 14th birthday:
https://youtu.be/rqQMuHbjJ2M?t=158
but only the next 60s unless /really/ interested!

The real ambient sound is good, but I can't imagine why anybody (except
his mom or dad) would record his face instead of the flight. It's not
good as a reaction video unless he crashes.

 

[Rick C]

On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 5:35:29 AM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:

Rick C wrote...

There is a company who thinks there is a market for inductive
charging taxis at the stands where they pick up passengers.
They have a product that seems to work pretty well and they
claim it is so efficient the losses are lower than with a
direct cable!

That claim is totally bogus. And it's a stupid claim
to make, completely not necessary to sell their product.
I found a lot of their hype stupid, but it does appear
their engineers have done a good job and it makes sense.

How can you say their claim is bogus without even examining the device? This was discussed here previously and many thought it is possible. In particular they indicated it could simplify the electronics if I recall correctly.

So if the claim is bogus, what do you mean by "their engineers have done a good job and it makes sense"?

--

Rick C.

--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 6:07:30 AM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:

On 24/06/19 10:31, Winfield Hill wrote:
Tom Gardner wrote...

I, and many other people, loathe paying for
parking and prefer to walk a few hundred yards.

Combustion cars may be obsolete, replaced by EVs,
but then all cars are obsolete, in cities anyway.
But awwkk, I still prefer top drive.

Not in central London you wouldn't, at least if you
have any sense Boston is trivial by comparison.

My preferred mode of transport in central London
is coach/train to the general area, then folding
bicycle to the specific destinations. Not in other
cities, though, since the traffic is moving faster.

EV charging will be problematic in London and many
cities for a long time to come; see my previous
posts with google streetviews illustrating why.
I think even Rick C might have got that message.

I was criticized for judging the UK without having experienced it. Have you experienced "many cities"? I think large parts of the world will be happy to make the small changes required to accommodate EVs.

It's hard to imagine the British being so intransigent when they invented the Steam Engine and Train. Had to make some changes to accommodate that, eh?

--

Rick C.

-+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 3:36:18 AM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:

On 24/06/19 06:17, Rick C wrote:
According to Bill, cars spend 95% of their time sitting. So there is a lot
of time available to charge cars.

EVs use parking spaces when they charge, existing parking spaces. Gas pumps
are made so you can pull through so lots of wasted space. Turn a 16 pump
Sheets into an EV charging point and I bet you can get 30 or 40 charging
spaces. I think Tesla actually has a station with 40 chargers.

They install nearly all Superchargers in existing parking decks and parking
lots. No additional real estate needed! So maybe those gas stations can be
blown up and turned into parks! Wouldn't that be awesome?

In the UK car parks cost ÂŁ5-ÂŁ10 per hour in central London,
ÂŁ3-ÂŁ5 per hour in other cities.

I, and many other people, loathe paying for parking and prefer
to walk a few hundred yards.

What is your point? I think this may be a language barrier thing. Unfortunately we are both speaking English.

--

Rick C.

--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 24/06/19 14:16, Rick C wrote:

On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 3:36:18 AM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 24/06/19 06:17, Rick C wrote:
According to Bill, cars spend 95% of their time sitting. So there is a lot
of time available to charge cars.

EVs use parking spaces when they charge, existing parking spaces. Gas pumps
are made so you can pull through so lots of wasted space. Turn a 16 pump
Sheets into an EV charging point and I bet you can get 30 or 40 charging
spaces. I think Tesla actually has a station with 40 chargers.

They install nearly all Superchargers in existing parking decks and parking
lots. No additional real estate needed! So maybe those gas stations can be
blown up and turned into parks! Wouldn't that be awesome?

In the UK car parks cost ÂŁ5-ÂŁ10 per hour in central London,
ÂŁ3-ÂŁ5 per hour in other cities.

I, and many other people, loathe paying for parking and prefer
to walk a few hundred yards.

What is your point? I think this may be a language barrier thing. Unfortunately we are both speaking English.

Regrettably we aren't /both/ speaking English.

For example,
- only close members of my family see mens' pants
- ditto a woman's suspenders
- we smoke fags,
- we sit on bums,
- we close bonnets and wear hoods,
- we pay expensive fees to go public schools,
- your buildings don't even have a ground floor
- if you drive on the pavement over here,
you'll probably kill people
- we eat, bathe and sleep in caravans
- until 1957 Durham employed people to knock up
their citizens
- a quarter is a dimensionless ratio
- sherberts are dry powder sweets you suck
through liquorice straws
- when we see sleeping policemen, we drive
over them, slowly
- etc etc

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 24/06/19 14:35, Rick C wrote:

On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 6:07:30 AM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 24/06/19 10:31, Winfield Hill wrote:
Tom Gardner wrote...

I, and many other people, loathe paying for parking and prefer to walk
a few hundred yards.

Combustion cars may be obsolete, replaced by EVs, but then all cars are
obsolete, in cities anyway. But awwkk, I still prefer top drive.

Not in central London you wouldn't, at least if you have any sense
Boston is trivial by comparison.

My preferred mode of transport in central London is coach/train to the
general area, then folding bicycle to the specific destinations. Not in
other cities, though, since the traffic is moving faster.

EV charging will be problematic in London and many cities for a long time
to come; see my previous posts with google streetviews illustrating why. I
think even Rick C might have got that message.

I was criticized for judging the UK without having experienced it. Have you
experienced "many cities"?

Countless, in at least 19 countries in three very
different continents. Usually backpacking on public
transport, /not/ being whisked around on a coach like
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0064471/

So, how many countries and continents have *you* visited?

I think large parts of the world will be happy to make the small changes
required to accommodate EVs.

The smaller, the happier people will be.

But your concept of "small" may not match other
peoples' concept, and might not match any.

It's hard to imagine the British being so intransigent when they invented the
Steam Engine and Train. Had to make some changes to accommodate that, eh?

Good argument. Not.

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 05:48:57 +0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote in
news:qnm0he9eco3tvkoa5qambgeotdd7gf6qvt@4ax.com:

On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 04:34:43 +0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
news:686b0b30-c6fa-4a03-b58e-9994002a7bd8@googlegroups.com:

If you actually were interested in information rather than BS,
you would read the article with a critical mind.

In the seventies there was not even a single thought about an
electric powered RC helicopter, much less multi-motor quad
copters.

Now, they are talking about mass producing a pilotless whirly
bird
taxi srvice.

Folks are already buying up rooftop landing pad space leases.

High-end battery-powered drones can stay in the air about 20
minutes, with no payload except a small camera. A weatherproof,
enclosed drone with passengers and luggage isn't going to make it
very far.



Have you seen the units in the news recently? They fly forward at
about 100 knots.

Other countries will advance faster than America will. We are too
regulatory prone.

The personal helicopter idea has been around for ages. I don't think
it's practical, especially using batteries. The hazards are too many,
the cost too high.

We should have already been back to the Moon.

Why? There's nothing very interesting on the moon. Robots could bring
back more dirt, but nobody is bothering to do that.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

[Andy Bennet]

On 24/06/2019 06:02, John Larkin wrote:

On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 00:41:49 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
curd@notformail.com> wrote:


And if there is no quantum leap in battery technology, they may never be
viable.


https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-06-23/inconvenient-truth-electric-cars

A gasoline pump moves about 10 GPM, which is equivalent to around 20
megawatts electrical. A car can fill up with gasoline in a few
minutes. Mine typically takes a minute or so.

If it takes an hour to fast-charge an electric car, the stall is
occupied for an hour. Or more if the owner doesn't immediately move
the car when it's charged. That's going to take some serious real
estate, and some serious waiting times.

Having more electric cars, even 25%, is going to need some major
logistics.

An EV can take as long as it likes to charge as long as it is ready when
I am.
It takes less than 30 SECONDS OF MY TIME to charge my EV.