Early compact fluoro failure - Philips

[Sylvia Else]

On 19/10/2010 1:40 PM, kreed wrote:

On Oct 19, 10:51 am, Sylvia Else<syl...@not.here.invalid> wrote:
On 19/10/2010 1:13 AM, kreed wrote:



On Oct 18, 11:57 pm, F Murtz<hagg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
kreed wrote:
On Oct 17, 2:51 pm, Sylvia Else<syl...@not.here.invalid> wrote:
On 17/10/2010 2:49 PM, Metro wrote:

"Sylvia Else"<syl...@not.here.invalid> wrote in message
news:8hv75fFcleU1@mid.individual.net...
On 17/10/2010 11:43 AM, Techo wrote:
These pictures show absolutely nothing, why are you even bothering. Just
another hobbyist who thinks that they are an expert but in reality not
having a clue.

OK, since Phil can't, perhaps you'd care to explain why shorting of poorly
insulated wires either to each other, or to the underside of the circuit
board, is not an issue.

Sylvia.

The ' poorly insulated wires ' have nothing to do with the failure. How
would they be shorting? How would they short to the ' underside of the
circuit board '? It would be physically impossible without tampering

Because of the position of the insulating sleeve on the uppermost wire,
it can short to its adjacent wire which has no insulation. In the second
picture, the two wires can be seen to be touching just to the right of
the platic base fo which the tube is attached. As I've indicated, the
wires themselves are either not insulated at all, or the insulation is
poor, because I can make contact along their length using multimeter probes.

When the lamp is assembled the wires lie along the back of the circuit
board. Where the wires have no insulating sleeve, they can make contact
with the circuit tracks and component leads on the back of the board.
The lower three wires can all make contact with something they should
not on the back of the circuit board adjacent to the connecting pins.

Sylvia.

Are they enamelled copper wire ?

If it is enameled it can not be any good as Sylvia made contact along
wire with the meter probes

That should be able to cope with any voltages present in that
circuit ?

That spaghetti over the top would mostly be for protection from heat ?

I wonder how good the enamelled wire is in the transformer then ?
Might be worth looking at, but also might not be from the same
supplier.

An earlier post indicated that the wire leading to the tube is a special
alloy to handle the high temperatures associated with being inserted
into the molten glass during the tube manufacture. I haven't checked,
but it seems plausible. If that's the case, the the transformer won't
use the same wire.

Sylvia.

Unless there is obvious damage to the circuitry such as a violently
blown fuse, or burnt, damaged components,
you could try to wire a regular fluro tube to the PCB and see if it
lights.

I've determined that one of the heater elements is open circuit. This
wouldn't happen as a result of the two wires shorting together, but it
could happen as a result of the uninsulated wire touching something on
the circuit board that it shouldn't.

This would indicate whether or not the circuitry is still operating,
or was damaged.
If there was a short from that wire to the board, there would be a
good chance of damage to the circuitry.

I have since dismantled several failed CFL (various brands with date
of purchase going back as far as 2002),
All have that same type of woven (heat resistant) sleeving over the
leads,
In many cases the wires in those sleeves are bare
In all cases they had an open circuit filament which was likely the
reason for failure.

One Philips CFL had a different design to yours, an extremely compact
plastic base, the PCB was mounted upside down (solder side of the PCB
facing the tube) with 2 cutouts in the PCB's for where the tube ends
come through the base. How they fit all the circuitry
on the remaining board space was remarkable.

Sounds like the more recent one I diassembled for comparison. The
significant difference from the failed one, apart from all the wires
being insulated, is that the insulation was about as long is it could
be, rather than only 2/3 the length of the wire it was insulating.

The board had a rather strange shape - one which I suspect was designed
to allow a denser use of the manufactred boards, albeit at the cost
having curved cuts.

Sylvia.

 

[Sylvia Else]

On 19/10/2010 1:37 PM, Grant wrote:

On Tue, 19 Oct 2010 11:57:08 +1100, Sylvia Else<sylvia@not.here.invalid> wrote:

On 18/10/2010 8:00 AM, Ian Field wrote:
"Sylvia Else"<sylvia@not.here.invalid> wrote in message
news:8hqss7FthgU1@mid.individual.net...
A had a Philips compact fluoro fail after what cannot have been a large
number of hours. I pulled it apart to see what was wrong.

http://members.optusnet.com.au/sylviae/philipsFluoro1.jpg

http://members.optusnet.com.au/sylviae/philipsFluoro2.jpg

I rather think the reason is apparent in those pictures. It seems to me
that the insulation on the copper wire at the the top of the picture has
no business being stuck up there entangled with the attachment pin. It's
surely meant to be lower down, as the other two are (and why not three?),
to prevent the wires from touching.

It's not even clear whether the wire is heavily oxidised, or badly
enameled - I can make contact using meter probes at some points along it.

Any, I think Philips should provide a replacement at their cost - I'll see
what they say.

Sylvia.


At the price I paid for a load of Philips CFLs it would cost more to phone
and complain, the supermarket put them on offer at 99p then added a buy one
get one free.

Perhaps they were offloading the dodgy ones after Philips moved to a
better quality construction.

I haven't phoned to complain. Only emailed. So the only cost to me was
my time. I feel the expenditure of time is worthwhile when a product has
not merely failed, but appears to have done so because of poor design or
manufacture.


Besides, I've yet to have one fail.


Luck, perhaps. Mine lasted a fair while - just nothing like as long as
Philips claimed, given its limited usage.

I forget, was the CFL used sideways? That seems to cause grief to some
CFLs I had a pair of cheapies go within a week of each well before
the manufacture date code was a year old.

No, it was hanging vertically, as would be the case for most such lamps.

Sylvia.

 

[kreed]

On Oct 19, 10:51 am, Sylvia Else <syl...@not.here.invalid> wrote:

On 19/10/2010 1:13 AM, kreed wrote:



On Oct 18, 11:57 pm, F Murtz<hagg...@hotmail.com>  wrote:
kreed wrote:
On Oct 17, 2:51 pm, Sylvia Else<syl...@not.here.invalid>    wrote:
On 17/10/2010 2:49 PM, Metro wrote:

"Sylvia Else"<syl...@not.here.invalid>      wrote in message
news:8hv75fFcleU1@mid.individual.net...
On 17/10/2010 11:43 AM, Techo wrote:
These pictures show absolutely nothing, why are you even bothering. Just
another hobbyist who thinks that they are an expert but in reality not
having a clue.

OK, since Phil can't, perhaps you'd care to explain why shorting of poorly
insulated wires either to each other, or to the underside of the circuit
board, is not an issue.

Sylvia.

The ' poorly insulated wires ' have nothing to do with the failure. How
would they be shorting?  How would they short to the  '  underside of the
circuit board '? It would be physically impossible without tampering

Because of the position of the insulating sleeve on the uppermost wire,
it can short to its adjacent wire which has no insulation. In the second
picture, the two wires can be seen to be touching just to the right of
the platic base fo which the tube is attached. As I've indicated, the
wires themselves are either not insulated at all, or the insulation is
poor, because I can make contact along their length using multimeter probes.

When the lamp is assembled the wires lie along the back of the circuit
board. Where the wires have no insulating sleeve, they can make contact
with the circuit tracks and component leads on the back of the board..
The lower three wires can all make contact with something they should
not on the back of the circuit board adjacent to the connecting pins..

Sylvia.

Are they enamelled copper wire ?

If it is enameled it can not be any good as Sylvia made contact along
wire with the meter probes

That should be able to cope with any voltages present in that
circuit ?

That spaghetti over the top would mostly be for protection from heat ?

I wonder how good the enamelled wire is in the transformer then ?
Might be worth looking at, but also might not be from the same
supplier.

An earlier post indicated that the wire leading to the tube is a special
alloy to handle the high temperatures associated with being inserted
into the molten glass during the tube manufacture. I haven't checked,
but it seems plausible. If that's the case, the the transformer won't
use the same wire.

Sylvia.

Unless there is obvious damage to the circuitry such as a violently
blown fuse, or burnt, damaged components,
you could try to wire a regular fluro tube to the PCB and see if it
lights.
This would indicate whether or not the circuitry is still operating,
or was damaged.
If there was a short from that wire to the board, there would be a
good chance of damage to the circuitry.

I have since dismantled several failed CFL (various brands with date
of purchase going back as far as 2002),
All have that same type of woven (heat resistant) sleeving over the
leads,
In many cases the wires in those sleeves are bare
In all cases they had an open circuit filament which was likely the
reason for failure.

One Philips CFL had a different design to yours, an extremely compact
plastic base, the PCB was mounted upside down (solder side of the PCB
facing the tube) with 2 cutouts in the PCB's for where the tube ends
come through the base. How they fit all the circuitry
on the remaining board space was remarkable.

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2010-10-18, kreed <kenreed1999@gmail.com> wrote:

On Oct 17, 2:51 pm, Sylvia Else <syl...@not.here.invalid> wrote:
On 17/10/2010 2:49 PM, Metro wrote:

Are they enamelled copper wire ?
That should be able to cope with any voltages present in that
circuit ?

nah, it's that alloy they use for wires that go through glass.
no coating other than natural oxidisation.

That spaghetti over the top would mostly be for protection from heat ?

it's heat proof spaghetti, but probably to avoid shorts between the
wires.

shorts to the PCB should be impossible if the wires are pulled tight
before wrapping.

--
ɹǝpun uʍop ɯoɹɟ sƃuıʇǝǝɹ⅁


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---

 

[Sylvia Else]

On 19/10/2010 6:27 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:

On 2010-10-18, kreed<kenreed1999@gmail.com> wrote:
On Oct 17, 2:51 pm, Sylvia Else<syl...@not.here.invalid> wrote:
On 17/10/2010 2:49 PM, Metro wrote:

Are they enamelled copper wire ?
That should be able to cope with any voltages present in that
circuit ?

nah, it's that alloy they use for wires that go through glass.
no coating other than natural oxidisation.

That spaghetti over the top would mostly be for protection from heat ?

it's heat proof spaghetti, but probably to avoid shorts between the
wires.

shorts to the PCB should be impossible if the wires are pulled tight
before wrapping.

They clearly weren't.

I'm far from sure it's a good idea any, since in would increse the
thermal cycling stresses.

Sylvia.

 

[Mr.T]

"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.here.invalid> wrote in message
news:8i48n6Fc8oU1@mid.individual.net...

Mine lasted a fair while - just nothing like as long as
Philips claimed, given its limited usage.

They never do. The claimed life expectancy is under their test conditions
only. Even then I think they just pick the figure out their ass.

MrT.

 

[Trevor Wilson]

Mr.T wrote:

"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.here.invalid> wrote in message
news:8i48n6Fc8oU1@mid.individual.net...
Mine lasted a fair while - just nothing like as long as
Philips claimed, given its limited usage.

They never do. The claimed life expectancy is under their test
conditions only. Even then I think they just pick the figure out
their ass.

**The manufacturers have donkeys?

Or do you mean arse?


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

 

[Trevor Wilson]

kreed wrote:

On Oct 20, 10:32 am, "Mr.T" <MrT@home> wrote:
"Sylvia Else" <syl...@not.here.invalid> wrote in message

news:8i48n6Fc8oU1@mid.individual.net...

Mine lasted a fair while - just nothing like as long as
Philips claimed, given its limited usage.

They never do. The claimed life expectancy is under their test
conditions only. Even then I think they just pick the figure out
their ass.

MrT.

Makers could easily say anything, and they probably could safely give
a 5 year warranty on globes
(that in reality don't last more than a couple of years.)

**I keep hearing this claim, but I don't find that at all, IME. I have 17
CFLs at varous places around my home. I've experienced two failures:

1) A possum saton/bumped a naked lamp and broke it.
2) I dropped my trouble lamp and a rock pierced the protective shell and
broke the lamp.

It is unlikely that an incadescent would have survived either occurence.

Some of the lamps are operated in excess of 4 hours/day (most average around
1 hour/day). All lamps have been installed for almost 5 years and, in the
case of three, are even older (around 7 years). These two are used in
bathrooms and a study and are operated around 1 hour per day.

In the same period, I've replaced around a dozen halogen downlights (around
1 hour/day) and two incandescents (100 Watt on a dimmer - which is why I
don't use a CFL), which barely operates more than one hour per month. I'm
seriously looking at a big LED replacement for this guy.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

 

[kreed]

On Oct 20, 10:32 am, "Mr.T" <MrT@home> wrote:

"Sylvia Else" <syl...@not.here.invalid> wrote in message

news:8i48n6Fc8oU1@mid.individual.net...

Mine lasted a fair while - just nothing like as long as
Philips claimed, given its limited usage.

They never do. The claimed life expectancy is under their test conditions
only. Even then I think they just pick the figure out their ass.

MrT.

Makers could easily say anything, and they probably could safely give
a 5 year warranty on globes
(that in reality don't last more than a couple of years.) and it would
not cost them much money on claims.

Quite simply, most people

1> Wouldn't keep the receipt, or wouldn't go to the trouble of
searching for it if they did.
2> Couldn't be bothered to take something back for the sake of $2-$3
or so.
3> If they had a lot of these globes, bought at different times, many
wouldn't remember when/where
they bought them, or if they are out of warranty or not.
4> If they planned to take them back to a place of purchase such as
Coles, Woolies etc that they visit regularly for their other shopping,
they might put the bulb aside and forget to take it.
5> If there is any requirement to post them back for a warranty
replacement (or maybe a voucher for a new one
from a retailer), it isn't worth it financially or time-wise,
even stuffing round packing it would be a hassle.


It would be interesting to see in a few weeks if Sylvia has actually
returned hers or not.



I would wonder how many people would bother to even return most items
like <$100 TV's, cheap DVD players (if they failed after a few months)
under warranty etc, rather than just toss them and buy a replacement.

 

[Mr.T]

"Trevor Wilson" <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote in message
news:8i7epoFbkpU2@mid.individual.net...

**I keep hearing this claim, but I don't find that at all, IME. I have 17
CFLs at varous places around my home. I've experienced two failures:

Lucky you, how long have you bee using them? I don't see many others saying
the same thing however.

MrT.

 

[Trevor Wilson]

"Mr.T" <MrT@home> wrote in message
news:4cbeb3ab$0$24510$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...

"Trevor Wilson" <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote in message
news:8i7epoFbkpU2@mid.individual.net...
**I keep hearing this claim, but I don't find that at all, IME. I have 17
CFLs at varous places around my home. I've experienced two failures:

Lucky you, how long have you bee using them? I don't see many others
saying
the same thing however.

**Asked and answered. The longest I've been using CFLs is around 7 years. I
transferred those lamps to the home I am now in. I've lived here for almost
5 years and I whacked CFLs in all over the place the week I moved in. I have
no idea why some other people find CFLs unreliable. Perhaps only the
complainers bother to say anything. Those who find them reliable just shut
up and enjoy not having to change lamps every few months. Most of my CFLs
are Philips branded types. The three I transferred from my old home were
quite expensive when I purchased them. They are 23 Watt types and do a
fabulous job.

Further: I started a basement excavation soon after I moved in. I initially
used a 500 Watt halogen work flood light. During the Summer, the heat drove
me crazy, so I rigged up a string of 7 X 15 Watt CFLs around the basement
area. I didn't pay attention to brands, as they were freebies provided by
the Gummint. The useful light was vastly improved and the heat output much
lower. I still have those lamps in place. They still get used for hours at a
time. No failures.

--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

 

[Ian Field]

"Trevor Wilson" <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote in message
news:8i8vg8Fq33U1@mid.individual.net...

"Mr.T" <MrT@home> wrote in message
news:4cbeb3ab$0$24510$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...

"Trevor Wilson" <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote in message
news:8i7epoFbkpU2@mid.individual.net...
**I keep hearing this claim, but I don't find that at all, IME. I have
17
CFLs at varous places around my home. I've experienced two failures:

Lucky you, how long have you bee using them? I don't see many others
saying
the same thing however.

**Asked and answered. The longest I've been using CFLs is around 7 years.
I transferred those lamps to the home I am now in. I've lived here for
almost 5 years and I whacked CFLs in all over the place the week I moved
in. I have no idea why some other people find CFLs unreliable. Perhaps
only the complainers bother to say anything. Those who find them reliable
just shut up and enjoy not having to change lamps every few months. Most
of my CFLs are Philips branded types. The three I transferred from my old
home were quite expensive when I purchased them. They are 23 Watt types
and do a fabulous job.

Further: I started a basement excavation soon after I moved in. I
initially used a 500 Watt halogen work flood light. During the Summer, the
heat drove me crazy, so I rigged up a string of 7 X 15 Watt CFLs around
the basement area. I didn't pay attention to brands, as they were freebies
provided by the Gummint. The useful light was vastly improved and the heat
output much lower. I still have those lamps in place. They still get used
for hours at a time. No failures.

In my experience the reliability of CFLs has gone from total crap in the
early days, to not too bad, to now not too far off what the manufacturers
claim.

 

[Mr.T]

"Trevor Wilson" <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote in message
news:8i8vg8Fq33U1@mid.individual.net...

The longest I've been using CFLs is around 7 years.

Well there you go, my first one was about 20 years ago. I just replaced a
Fluoro tube in my kitchen that has been used every night for over 15 years.
NONE of the CFL's I have used (at least 20 all up) lasted more than a year
or two. (Worst was Phillips at zero hours. Also once had two of the very
early Phillips CFL's which cost a bomb and didn't last very long either).
The cheap incandescent in my bedroom is at least 5 years old and still going
OK though.
The fact is proper Fluoro tubes are *FAR* better than CFL's. I won't be
putting a single CFL in my next house! Hopefully LED lamps may soon be a
viable alternative for small light fittings.

MrT.

 

[Sylvia Else]

On 21/10/2010 10:17 AM, Mr.T wrote:

"Trevor Wilson"<trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote in message
news:8i8vg8Fq33U1@mid.individual.net...
The longest I've been using CFLs is around 7 years.


Well there you go, my first one was about 20 years ago. I just replaced a
Fluoro tube in my kitchen that has been used every night for over 15 years.
NONE of the CFL's I have used (at least 20 all up) lasted more than a year
or two. (Worst was Phillips at zero hours. Also once had two of the very
early Phillips CFL's which cost a bomb and didn't last very long either).
The cheap incandescent in my bedroom is at least 5 years old and still going
OK though.
The fact is proper Fluoro tubes are *FAR* better than CFL's. I won't be
putting a single CFL in my next house! Hopefully LED lamps may soon be a
viable alternative for small light fittings.

MrT.

LED lamps also need electronics to drive them. While the LEDs themselves
would probably be more reliable than fluorescent tubes, I see no reason
to expect a higher quality or reliability in the electronics.

Sylvia.

 

[Trevor Wilson]

Mr.T wrote:

"Trevor Wilson" <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote in message
news:8i8vg8Fq33U1@mid.individual.net...
The longest I've been using CFLs is around 7 years.


Well there you go, my first one was about 20 years ago. I just
replaced a Fluoro tube in my kitchen that has been used every night
for over 15 years. NONE of the CFL's I have used (at least 20 all up)
lasted more than a year or two. (Worst was Phillips at zero hours.
Also once had two of the very early Phillips CFL's which cost a bomb
and didn't last very long either). The cheap incandescent in my
bedroom is at least 5 years old and still going OK though.
The fact is proper Fluoro tubes are *FAR* better than CFL's. I won't
be putting a single CFL in my next house! Hopefully LED lamps may
soon be a viable alternative for small light fittings.

**No argument from me re. straight tubes. I use them in my workshop and
replace them every 18 months or so, due to falling output. I've been using
high quality, high output (and expensive) quad phosphor types for several
years. When I really need high light levels, I crank up my 80 Watt halide,
but the warm-up times are pretty horrible. As LEDs, I am waiting for
reasonable output, reasonably priced types for my downlights to appear.
Unfortunately, many don't respond well to those new switching transformers,
due to the slow diodes used. I suspect vaible LED replacements are very
close indeed (at sane prices).


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

 

[kreed]

On Oct 21, 5:50 am, "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:

"Mr.T" <MrT@home> wrote in message

news:4cbeb3ab$0$24510$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...



"Trevor Wilson" <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote in message
news:8i7epoFbkpU2@mid.individual.net...
**I keep hearing this claim, but I don't find that at all, IME. I have 17
CFLs at varous places around my home. I've experienced two failures:

Lucky you, how long have you bee using them? I don't see many others
saying
the same thing however.

**Asked and answered. The longest I've been using CFLs is around 7 years. I
transferred those lamps to the home I am now in. I've lived here for almost
5 years and I whacked CFLs in all over the place the week I moved in. I have
no idea why some other people find CFLs unreliable. Perhaps only the
complainers bother to say anything. Those who find them reliable just shut
up and enjoy not having to change lamps every few months. Most of my CFLs
are Philips branded types. The three I transferred from my old home were
quite expensive when I purchased them. They are 23 Watt types and do a
fabulous job.

Further: I started a basement excavation soon after I moved in. I initially
used a 500 Watt halogen work flood light. During the Summer, the heat drove
me crazy, so I rigged up a string of 7 X 15 Watt CFLs around the basement
area. I didn't pay attention to brands, as they were freebies provided by
the Gummint. The useful light was vastly improved and the heat output much
lower. I still have those lamps in place. They still get used for hours at a
time. No failures.

--
Trevor Wilsonwww.rageaudio.com.au

I personally have found that some fail within 1-2 years, but a lot of
them last a lot longer. Regardless of brand.

 

[kreed]

On Oct 21, 9:17 am, "Mr.T" <MrT@home> wrote:

"Trevor Wilson" <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote in message

news:8i8vg8Fq33U1@mid.individual.net...

The longest I've been using CFLs is around 7 years.

Well there you go, my first one was about 20 years ago. I just replaced a
Fluoro tube in my kitchen that has been used every night for over 15 years.
NONE of the CFL's I have used (at least 20 all up) lasted more than a year
or two. (Worst was Phillips at zero hours. Also once had two of the very
early Phillips CFL's which cost a bomb and didn't last very long either).
The cheap incandescent in my bedroom is at least 5 years old and still going
OK though.
The fact is proper Fluoro tubes are *FAR* better than CFL's. I won't be
putting a single CFL in my next house! Hopefully LED lamps may soon be a
viable alternative for small light fittings.

MrT.

Yes, proper straight or circular fluros are streets ahead in light
output.

I recently put a T5 14w fitting in the bathroom to replace a rusted
out 18w fitting
The light output was excellent and at least equivalent if not better.

As a temporary measure I put in a plug in light with a CFL of similar
wattage
to the T5 14w and the light output was woeful. Was too dark.

NEC Quadphosphors are excellent. I was able to replace 3 fittings with
normal tubes with 2 with these and
the light output was excellent to work under.



Friend of my wife, she had the State government replace her bulbs with
2x 18w CFL. They had a horrible colour of light, and
also were like a dead match as far as lighting the lounge room. - even
naked in the socket with nothing to reduce the light levels.

The 32w circular fluro in an adjacent room lit up the room like
daylight.


The really ironic part was that when I looked, you could see marks
where there had been 36w fittings there originally that had been
removed.

 

[terryc]

Trevor Wilson wrote:

Most of my CFLs are Philips branded types.

Yep, my two oldest are phillips and still going, but one(more use) is
now a bit dull. OTOH, there is a constant turnover in the others.
Probably about a couple of years each, which isn't that great
considering how much more expensive they are and and only a slightly
longer life.

FWIW, the worst incandescents were the reflector types in receptables.
Only they made CFL look good.

 

[Ross Herbert]

On Tue, 19 Oct 2010 13:57:47 +1100, Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.here.invalid> wrote:

:On 19/10/2010 1:40 PM, kreed wrote:
:> On Oct 19, 10:51 am, Sylvia Else<syl...@not.here.invalid> wrote:
:>> On 19/10/2010 1:13 AM, kreed wrote:
:>>
:>>
:>>
:>>> On Oct 18, 11:57 pm, F Murtz<hagg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
:>>>> kreed wrote:
:>>>>> On Oct 17, 2:51 pm, Sylvia Else<syl...@not.here.invalid> wrote:
:>>>>>> On 17/10/2010 2:49 PM, Metro wrote:
:>>
:>>>>>>> "Sylvia Else"<syl...@not.here.invalid> wrote in message
:>>>>>>> news:8hv75fFcleU1@mid.individual.net...
:>>>>>>>> On 17/10/2010 11:43 AM, Techo wrote:
:>>>>>>>>> These pictures show absolutely nothing, why are you even bothering.
Just
:>>>>>>>>> another hobbyist who thinks that they are an expert but in reality
not
:>>>>>>>>> having a clue.
:>>
:>>>>>>>> OK, since Phil can't, perhaps you'd care to explain why shorting of
poorly
:>>>>>>>> insulated wires either to each other, or to the underside of the
circuit
:>>>>>>>> board, is not an issue.
:>>
:>>>>>>>> Sylvia.
:>>
:>>>>>>> The ' poorly insulated wires ' have nothing to do with the failure. How
:>>>>>>> would they be shorting? How would they short to the ' underside of
the
:>>>>>>> circuit board '? It would be physically impossible without tampering
:>>
:>>>>>> Because of the position of the insulating sleeve on the uppermost wire,
:>>>>>> it can short to its adjacent wire which has no insulation. In the second
:>>>>>> picture, the two wires can be seen to be touching just to the right of
:>>>>>> the platic base fo which the tube is attached. As I've indicated, the
:>>>>>> wires themselves are either not insulated at all, or the insulation is
:>>>>>> poor, because I can make contact along their length using multimeter
probes.
:>>
:>>>>>> When the lamp is assembled the wires lie along the back of the circuit
:>>>>>> board. Where the wires have no insulating sleeve, they can make contact
:>>>>>> with the circuit tracks and component leads on the back of the board.
:>>>>>> The lower three wires can all make contact with something they should
:>>>>>> not on the back of the circuit board adjacent to the connecting pins.
:>>
:>>>>>> Sylvia.
:>>
:>>>>> Are they enamelled copper wire ?
:>>
:>>>> If it is enameled it can not be any good as Sylvia made contact along
:>>>> wire with the meter probes
:>>
:>>>>> That should be able to cope with any voltages present in that
:>>>>> circuit ?
:>>
:>>>>> That spaghetti over the top would mostly be for protection from heat ?
:>>
:>>> I wonder how good the enamelled wire is in the transformer then ?
:>>> Might be worth looking at, but also might not be from the same
:>>> supplier.
:>>
:>> An earlier post indicated that the wire leading to the tube is a special
:>> alloy to handle the high temperatures associated with being inserted
:>> into the molten glass during the tube manufacture. I haven't checked,
:>> but it seems plausible. If that's the case, the the transformer won't
:>> use the same wire.
:>>
:>> Sylvia.
:>
:> Unless there is obvious damage to the circuitry such as a violently
:> blown fuse, or burnt, damaged components,
:> you could try to wire a regular fluro tube to the PCB and see if it
:> lights.
:
:I've determined that one of the heater elements is open circuit. This
:wouldn't happen as a result of the two wires shorting together, but it
:could happen as a result of the uninsulated wire touching something on
:the circuit board that it shouldn't.
:
:> This would indicate whether or not the circuitry is still operating,
:> or was damaged.
:> If there was a short from that wire to the board, there would be a
:> good chance of damage to the circuitry.
:>
:> I have since dismantled several failed CFL (various brands with date
:> of purchase going back as far as 2002),
:> All have that same type of woven (heat resistant) sleeving over the
:> leads,
:> In many cases the wires in those sleeves are bare
:> In all cases they had an open circuit filament which was likely the
:> reason for failure.
:>
:> One Philips CFL had a different design to yours, an extremely compact
:> plastic base, the PCB was mounted upside down (solder side of the PCB
:> facing the tube) with 2 cutouts in the PCB's for where the tube ends
:> come through the base. How they fit all the circuitry
:> on the remaining board space was remarkable.
:>
:
:Sounds like the more recent one I diassembled for comparison. The
:significant difference from the failed one, apart from all the wires
:being insulated, is that the insulation was about as long is it could
:be, rather than only 2/3 the length of the wire it was insulating.
:
:The board had a rather strange shape - one which I suspect was designed
:to allow a denser use of the manufactred boards, albeit at the cost
:having curved cuts.
:
:Sylvia.


This CFL looks like the Philips Genie 14W model. I recently pulled one apart
when it suddenly stopped working. On mine all 4 wires from the filaments were
insulated with fibreglass spaghetti. No, they are not enamel insulated wires
because they are simply wrapped around the square terminal posts and there was
no evidence of any enamel insulation having been removed either. I tested every
component on the board and couldn't detect which part had failed. Both filaments
were ok and there was absolutely no evidence of any shorting on the pcb. The
inside bottom of the tubes adjacent to the filaments were devoid of phosphor
coating though.

Pavouk has gone to the trouble of posting schematics of a few brands and models
of CFL http://www.pavouk.org/hw/lamp/en_index.html and while the Genie 14W
circuit is similar to the 11W it is not exactly the same, and some component
values are different.

 

[F Murtz]

Mr.T wrote:

"Trevor Wilson"<trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote in message
news:8i8vg8Fq33U1@mid.individual.net...
The longest I've been using CFLs is around 7 years.


Well there you go, my first one was about 20 years ago. I just replaced a
Fluoro tube in my kitchen that has been used every night for over 15 years.
NONE of the CFL's I have used (at least 20 all up) lasted more than a year
or two. (Worst was Phillips at zero hours. Also once had two of the very
early Phillips CFL's which cost a bomb and didn't last very long either).
The cheap incandescent in my bedroom is at least 5 years old and still going
OK though.
The fact is proper Fluoro tubes are *FAR* better than CFL's. I won't be
putting a single CFL in my next house! Hopefully LED lamps may soon be a
viable alternative for small light fittings.

MrT.

CFCs are wonderful things as long as you don't mind unreliability,
fickleness,having time to make a cup of tea while they warm up.
Any I put in an enclosed fittings don't last long
I tested a few with a light meter recently, One of mine (an old
philips)took five minutes to reach full brightness,a mexican chandelier
with six newer cfcs (not philips)took three minutes.
I took readings at 15 sec intervals for a minute then at one minute
intervals but I have thrown the bit of paper out,granted, the last
minute or so rise was at a slower rate.
The CFC's in the chandelier blow at the rate of one every two months
or so.The chandelier looks funny as it should have twisted candle lamps,
but they also blow regularly.