EAGLE Netlist conversion

[Henk Boonsma]

"GrantM." <grant@solarbotics.com> wrote in message
news:f30e7a62.0410140810.17116fc1@posting.google.com...

I know various iteration of this question have been asked before but
it's still a good thread to follow.

I personally have been using Protel for a few years and have been
quite happy with it. As much as I have read about it's instability
it's a rare day that it crashes and usually thats due to other factors
(running *way* to many programs on the same computer) and thats on
four different systems over four years. I found it to be a quick,
intuitive program that has tons of power under it's relativly simple
interface. The only problem is the price... $7995 USD.

Protel sucks. If you spent that kind of money on a program, you're not
likely to toss it in the Recycle Bin, no matter how bad it is. I guess that
Protel is decent, but so are many other packages, such as Eagle (which I
use). I guess that Protel users are simply fooling themselves into thinking
that something that expensive MUST be good. Well it ain't. There are plenty
of good low-cost and even free CAE programs out there.

 

[Leon Heller]

"Robert Hoffman" <bob@_I_Get_too_much_spam.com> wrote in message
news:41719613.BC9C6F2B@_I_Get_too_much_spam.com...

I've been looking hard. I need a decent schematic and PCB package under
$1000. Don't need autorouter or a zillion layers. Do want back
annotation and ease of use. I've downloaded a dozen demo packages. The
software all seems to be written by people with exceptional eyesight, no
fingers, a poor grasp of the English language, little understanding of
Windows conventions, and have never actually designed a PC board. They
mostly have 300 little tiny unreadable icons and no clue that clicking
the left mouse button should select something and the right button
should offer a list of things to do with it. A good few do not use the
mouse buttons at all. Pretty much without exception the software is
expensive and very poorly written. I can draw schematics and boards
faster and easier in Autocad, which is what I do now.

Is there ANYTHING out there that: actually correctly uses the mouse, has
working popup help on the buttons, is written in American English (no
"colours" please), is readable by somebody without super-human eyesight
and does 95% of everything with only the mouse buttons like it should.
Double-click to change properties, right-click to rotate, mirror, swap,
delete, add, cut, etc. I don't want something I have to fight with.
Under $1,000.

EasyPC does most of the above: http://www.numberone.com

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

 

[Chuck Harris]

Bill Sloman wrote:

Chuck Harris <cf-NO-SPAM-harris@erols.com> wrote in message news:<esidnTvqu-fXi-TcRVn-1A@rcn.net>...

Where Webster and Franklin did succeed, was in making spelling more
uniform. They took a language where spelling varied greatly depending
on where you were educated, and provide a reference of American
spellings. These spellings were not the simple phonetic spellings that
they wanted to have adopted, but rather, the spellings that were commonly
used by Webster, Franklin, Jefferson and others. It is interesting to
notice that the spellings used by Jefferson in his writings exactly match
those in the current American English dictionaries.


Have a look at Elizabethan spelling sometime - the modern habit of
spelling the same word the same way every time your write it is a
comparatively recent innovation. I'd be very surprised if Jefferson
spelled everything exactly the same way as current American
dictionaries do - can you post a URL for a web-site that supports this
claim?

It is a personal observation that comes from reading a whole lot of his
personal letters, and other writings. I was very surprised to see that
he was quite consistant, and quite modern. The letters he received in
reply were all over the place with their spelling.

-Chuck

 

[Chaos Master]

Quoting Pooh Bear [rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com], that posted to
sci.electronics.cad on Fri, 22 Oct 2004 01:13:03 +0100 under article
<4178508E.632F77F4@hotmail.com>:

In Microsoft Word, I can generate a
document faster than I could with pencil and paper.

You're still using version 2.0c ? ;-)

I use Word 97. It's the last Word version that is worth it.

[]s
--
Chaos MasterŽ, posting from Brazil.
"I know the difference between myself and my reflection. "
-- Evanescence, "Breathe No More"
http://marreka.no-ip.com | http://tinyurl.com/46vru | http://renan182.no-ip.org

 

[Kevin Aylward]

Clarence wrote:

"Don Prescott" <DMBPrescott@aol.com> wrote in message
news:7fb54666.0410221102.2b3730bd@posting.google.com...

Well, style is also dictated. "Strunk and White" come to mind.

Clarence, I really don't know what you're on but you come out with
some statements that are impossible to understand. "Strunk and
White"
- what on earth does that mean..?

"Strunk and White" in the standard "Style" manual used for a variety
of formal writing. You could just look it up. IF you have access to
the Internet. Don't you have a "Style" manual in Britain?

Gee. No wonder your confused! &gt

Just for the record, what country are you from...?
Prescott

There is NO record!

Oh. You mean you don't have a birth certificate?

My family has been in America for over 400 years.

Here we go again. Those pretentious F*&*ing Americans that that seem to
think that they are not American because that have some extremely remote
connection outwith the US. ROTFLMAO.

Look, dude, read my lips. You are American. Period. However, I agree,
there is good reason for Americans to try and deny that they are, as
evidenced by the fact that they usually all respond in a like manner
when asked this question.


Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

 

[Kevin Aylward]

Don Prescott wrote:

US pronunciation derived largely from
the still- current Cornish dialect.

Right. Not so much Cornish as West Country English. If you visit the
west of England counties: Cornwall, Devon, Somerset, you can detect
the faint echos of the modern American accent. This makes perfect
sense of course as Plymouth, from whence came the pilgrim fathers, is
in Devon.

Ahmmm... Plymouth is a *port* where people *went* to board ships. Its
not very likely that many on the Mayflower actually *came* from Plymouth
or that area, so it makes no sense at all that they would have west
English accents.

The first link I got on this was
http://www.bbc.co.uk/devon/discovering/famous/pilgrim_fathers.shtml

Where it is stated that that many on the Mayflower were transfers from a
Southampton ship, and that some weren't even English.

Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

 

[Terry Pinnell]

Robert Hoffman <bob@_I_Get_too_much_spam.com> wrote:

Nothing actually WRONG with Engilsh English. Its a symptom however.
^^^^^^^ ^^^

The USA is probably the world's largest market for CAD at the moment.
If a software vendor can't be troubled to understand and accomodate the
^^^^^^^^^^
local idiom, it bothers me. Eagle, for example. Badly translated
prompts from German and a very different expectation about the user
interface. "User is please to click the button right of the mouse
mechanism at this time." CAdInt has a wierd non-conforming user
^^^^^
interface translated from Swedish. In Microsoft Word, I can generate a
document faster than I could with pencil and paper. I expect that I can
render a schemetic or a PC board faster with CAD than I can by hand.
^^^^^^^^^
Not so. I can draw with a template faster and layout with tape and dots
faster than most PCB CAD programs I've tried. I need something that
increases my productivity. Something I have to fight, or needs
extensive training for me to accomodate its quirks is not acceptable.
^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^
It has to fit me. not vice-versa.
^^^^^

Nothing really objectionable about having some minor spelling
differences, but the fact they won't bother to customize to suit such a
major market does bother me. I have not tried Easy PC yet, but I will.

Pooh Bear wrote:

Robert Hoffman wrote:

Is there ANYTHING out there that:....... is written in American English

Anything wrong with English English ?

Graham

I'd worry a bit more about your own spelling than trivialities like
'color' versus 'colour'.

--
Terry Pinnell
Hobbyist, West Sussex, UK

 

[James Jackson]

Good topic.

I am not sure how much response you will get to tihs, but I will give you
some generic guidelines and my experiences...

A long time ago, when Service Bureaus were 'king'... I happened to snag one
of their estimate forms. They had obviously gotten the information from
somewhere - or knew their costs, etc - and it was obvious from how they were
able to allow the user to generate an estimate - based upon a few factors
involved.

I was a bit puzzled at how the numbers were derived, and spent many hours
and cups of coffee 'reverse-engineering' how they did it.

Turns out it was not that difficult. They basically used a system that
depended on an initial 'setup time' (in hours) - that every customer got
dinged with (or could be waived - if it was similar to a previous job - or
simple enough), and then it was determined by the number of 'pins', and the
size of the PCB (length and width).

Now... granted - this was back in the earlier days - 1992 or so - when the
designs may not have been as complex - or dense as they are now... but to a
certain extent, I have found that the basic rules still apply.

So - what you may need to do is figure out what your basic 'setup time' is -
and that would include things like getting the initial PCB configuration, to
post-processing, etc.

Then decide how long it takes you to work - on average. I.E. how fast can
you place Patterns, then route them, etc.

Determine the hourly rate you want to charge.

Create a spreadsheet to assist you in this - and you should be good to go.
(I have created an HTML web page that I use to plug in the pertinent
numbers - and it generates an estimate for me. I am able to access this web
page from anywhere that I may be. Pretty handy tool.)

Oh. What I have found out - and tell the customers - about 'engineering
changes' is that my estimate is good - for NO changes to the design. If the
engineer makes changes to the design - even 'minor' ones - then the design
drops to an 'hourly billed' rate - until I get back to the point where I was
at prior to the change - and then the original estimate kicks back in. (Not
sure that makes sense - but it _does_ work.)

The program that I created... seems to be basic and generic (to some) - and
there have been those who have scoffed at my technique (using the number of
pins and X,Y) - but when I input numbers supplied by these same folks - my
methods seem to generate estimates (in a matter of seconds) very similar to
their techniques that take hours to sift through.

As for Schematics... that is a bit more difficult. I usually just throw a
basic... 'it will take this long' in there (It's really a percentage of the
layout time)... it seems to work in most cases.

As for negotiating with clients - and trying to 'justify' my times... which
to some seem unrealistic - especially when there is ALWAYS the fella who
will always under-estimate a project - just to get the work (then later they
tell the client - 'I need more time') - I don't know what to tell you there.
I usually just *shrug* and walk away. I don't play the 'Well, I can reduce
my estimate...' game. What I _will_ tell them is that if they want to ignore
the estimate - and just go with an 'hourly rate' - that is, I will only bill
for the hours that I work - that it may come out better for them. They
usually like that idea and accept.

What _I_ want to know is... how do you get 'paid'?

Do you get a percentage of the estimate fee up-front upon acceptance of your
quote? Or only after the work is done - upon delivery of the job?

Do you release the CAD files to the client?

Or just the post-processing files - like Gerbers, Drill Data, IPC-D-356A,
etc.?

How do you handle clients that tell YOU when they pay - like... instead of a
'Net 30' days, they insist that they only pay 'Net 45' days? (Currently, I
have no answer... other than to 'up' my fees for those that want to pay
slower - to compensate me for the added burden of having to wait 15 days
longer.)

Regards,

James Jackson
Oztronics


<uvcceet@juno.com> wrote in message
news:41794404$1$ouf73$mr2ice@giganews.aros.net...

SInce anything has to be better than the ongoing disucssion of dialects
and
accents.......

I have occasionaly done contract schematic capture and PCB designs over
the
years, but now I am seeing some opportunities for even more work, which
I
really need, and so I am curious as to how to calculate charges, and if I
am
under or over selling my services.

I realize no one is going to give away trade secrets, or spill the beans
about
how much money they make, so I am not necessarily asking for amounts of
money,
but I am curious as to how others determine how much to charge for a job.

There are many different ways to go about it, but as the complexity of the
design goes up, I find it harder to calculate costs since I often spend a
lot
of time making unique parts for the sch and pcb decals that I didn't used
to
have be concerned with, plus things like multiple layers can make a design
much more complex that the simpler tasks I was used to doing.

If anyone is willing to share basic concepts, do you charge by the pin?
How
does the size and density of the board work into an estimate? By the hour,
or
by the job? Do you have a "basic setup" fee? Do you consider who is
wanting
the job, as in a large company with deep pockets, or a small, fly-by-night
place trying to get by. How do you handle the occasional "oops" by the
engineer after the board is done, and what about when you make mistakes?

Just curious if I am doing this right, or if there are better ways. To be
honest, when I know the people I am working for, its one thing, but when
they
are strangers and I know nothing about the company or the product, I know
that
I have to establish some rules and adhere to them so they don't get to
feeling
I am ripping them off. One place sort of let it be known that I don't seem
to
charge enough. Strange but true, so I am having to revisit what I am
doing.

In all honesty, the problem I have is that some days I can work like the
wind, and am in the groove, and other days, concentration is not there,
and
for whatever reason, I am not up to speed and to charge someone for an
hour's
work like that, versus the other day when I was rolling along, seems
rather
unfair. Even at a full time, salaried job, there are good days, and bad
ones.
I guess I am unsure how to charge a customer for my bad days

It almost seems a taboo subject. Kind of like an unspoken topic not to be
broached I don't expect any exact costs, or the revelation of any
great
secrets, but is anyone willing to share their method of quoting and
bidding
on jobs that involve pcb and sch design? Stories about customers who balk
at
the quote and how you negotiate with them?

Thanks for you time,

John

 

[BEVERNON]

Subject: Re: PCB cad software review
From: DMBPrescott@aol.com (Don Prescott)
Date: 10/23/04 12:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <7fb54666.0410230832.6dcc6fbe@posting.google.com

Once every two years I go out and download a couple of demos to see if
this has changed. Unfortunately in the last ten years this was not the
case.

Markus

This is the way of things with many PCB software packages these days -
there's obviously little or no development going into them. Easy-PC
is one of the few low-cost packages that seems to still develop the
product.

Prescott

Development takes time and costs money. A lot of the low cost (affordable)
packages are being squeezed out because of the availability of the free
packages. I certainly couldn't afford to continue to develop a package under
those conditions.

It doesn't always matter if the affordable package offers options that are not
available for free, what seems to matter is the $$$. So, why develop?

If you want high quality, free software, buy a computer (200 dollars or so) get
a Protel 30 demo, and keep reimaging your pc every thirty days or so.

That will encourage Protel to keep developing, I'm sure

Regards,
Brad

 

[Hal Murray]

Do you release the CAD files to the client?

I would assume that most customers would want them so they
could take the package to somebody else if you got run
over by a truck, were on vacation, were too busy, or...

Any problems with giving them everything? I assume you
want to make an archival copy of the whole project for your
your own use so it's probably easier to to make another
copy of that than it is to make a pruned copy for the customer.

The only reason I can think of for not giving them everything
is that you might consider some of the library stuff to be
propriatery. Up the price to cover that or get a lawyer to
write a contract that says they can't use it for anything
other than this board. (hard to enforce)

--
The suespammers.org mail server is located in California. So are all my
other mailboxes. Please do not send unsolicited bulk e-mail or unsolicited
commercial e-mail to my suespammers.org address or any of my other addresses.
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam.

 

[Thaas]

On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 11:17:05 -0400, Robert Hoffman
<bob@_I_Get_too_much_spam.com> wrote:

Just because I'm not a great typast or speler or attentive to my
apostrophe's does not alter the basic issue. The customer is always
right. You don't design software to suit your own convenience, you
design it to satisfy the customer. Several companies are not going to
get the thousand bucks or so which I have budgeted for this software.
It's probably not a triviality to them. (When I deliver something, I
have someone who is better at grammar and spelling check it for me. I
design things; I don't write dictionaries.)

Terry Pinnell wrote:


I'd worry a bit more about your own spelling than trivialities like
'color' versus 'colour'.

--
Terry Pinnell
Hobbyist, West Sussex, UK

Try Fanix Software's AsUType at http://www.asutype.com
--
Thaas

 

[Thaas]

On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 16:47:44 GMT, "Clarence" <no@No.com> wrote:

"Thaas" <mysig@sprynet.com> wrote in message
news:0l65n0ltfsdp00giafb41c5kprdkv4are8@4ax.com...
snip

Try Fanix Software's AsUType at http://www.asutype.com
--
Thaas


A spammer?

Most spelling checkers are free. Many are built into the NG reader.

Trying to sell a POS add on is not helpfull!

No. I'm a user. I like it. If you think it's a piece of shit, don't
use it.

AsYouType works for all programs, not just your news reader or word
processor. Since it's automatic you don't have to remember to run it
after you slam out your message. So you don't look like an idiot who
can't spell or type. It's adaptable to your common mistakes.

You can add correction databases, even modify the dictionaries. For
example, a common mistake I see on the usenet is mistyping loose for
lose. Kill loose in the dictionary and AsUType will flag it as an
unknown, calling the mistake to your attention.

But, hell Clarence, go ahead and loose the attitude.
--
Thaas

 

[Geo]

On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 23:30:22 -0500, hmurray@suespammers.org (Hal Murray) wrote:

I would assume that most customers would want them so they
could take the package to somebody else if you got run
over by a truck, were on vacation, were too busy, or...

Any problems with giving them everything?

Yes - if they have not paid yet.
On completion they get the gerber/nc files to create the board.
After payment they get the cad files to take elsewhere if they desire.

Geo

 

[Clarence]

"Charles Schuler" <charleschuler@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:JdednQfq3_Z7qeHcRVn-rw@comcast.com...

Had nothing of value to add to the topic.

Just Kill file the jerk!

 

[Simon Peacock]

Don't forget the library parts too.. they should get a copy of them if they
can't be extracted from the design

On the "if they haven't paid" part... you might want to arrange sending the
Gerber's to the fab house instead of the customer... I had a friendly fab
who would accept my designs for a third party...
It gets around the possession is 9/10's of the law rule... as they don't
have possession of the artworks.

Simon

"Geo" <hy1k-hwia@dea.spamcon.org> wrote in message
news:m20nn0t7fjr26tsua01o621cu65a442qt7@4ax.com...

On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 23:30:22 -0500, hmurray@suespammers.org (Hal Murray)
wrote:

I would assume that most customers would want them so they
could take the package to somebody else if you got run
over by a truck, were on vacation, were too busy, or...

Any problems with giving them everything?

Yes - if they have not paid yet.
On completion they get the gerber/nc files to create the board.
After payment they get the cad files to take elsewhere if they desire.

Geo

 

[Bob Stephens]

On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 07:32:31 GMT, Kevin Aylward wrote:

Here we go again. Those pretentious F*&*ing Americans that that seem to
think that they are not American because that have some extremely remote
connection outwith the US. ROTFLMAO.

What language is this supposed to be?

 

[Bob Stephens]

On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 16:37:35 -0700, Charles Edmondson wrote:

Bob Stephens wrote:

On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 12:00:53 -0400, Chuck Harris wrote:


Bob Stephens wrote:

On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:24:01 -0400, Chuck Harris wrote:

Television is having a dramatic affect on the English language.
It is standardizing the US on the Midwestern dialect of US
English.... and it has done so within my lifetime. When I was
a kid, we used to travel throughout the US and Canada quite a lot,
and I used to marvel at the way people in different parts of the
country talked, but now, they all sound mostly the same.

-Chuck


Really? When's the last time y'all traveled down south? Or Minnesohwtah for
that matter.

Well, I have been in Pennsylvania, New York, West Virginia, Michigan, Ohio,
Ontario, Wisconsin, Maryland and Virginia so far this year. My mother is
from Minnesota. And I have traveled in the South quite extensively over
the last couple of years. And some would say that I live in the south.

-Chuck


Just picking communities from three of those areas that I am familiar with.
Don't you think it would be pretty easy to distinguish between natives of
Brooklyn, Minneapolis and Memphis blindfolded?


Bob
Memphis might be a little hard to pick out, if the speaker is caucasian.
One of the lighter southern accents. I know, I was raised there!

I spent a year living there - loved it BTW - and I used to try to emulate
the accent of the "Memphians" and came up with a couple of rules.
1) Every syllable is actually at least two.
2) Each syllable has a "Y" in it somewhere.

I never got very good at it, but here is on example I annotated.
There is a great brew pub near Overton Sqaure in Midtown called "Bosco's
Squared". One of their signature beers is "Flaming Stone" ale. I got very
close to being able to say this in a mid south accent as follows:

"Fillay May-ing Stay-own"

Not perfect, but I preferred the IPA anyways


Bob

 

[Clarence]

"Don Prescott" <DMBPrescott@aol.com> wrote in message
news:7fb54666.0410250935.3f3e7dee@posting.google.com...

Here we go again. Those pretentious F*&*ing Americans that that seem to
think that they are not American because that have some extremely remote
connection outwith the US. ROTFLMAO.


Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.


Interesting to see a guy who runs his own company using a term like
"F*&*ing Americans". Don't you sell your products to Americans
Kevin..?

Prescott

Not any more!

 

[Jamie]

Clarence wrote:

"Don Prescott" <DMBPrescott@aol.com> wrote in message
news:7fb54666.0410250935.3f3e7dee@posting.google.com...

Here we go again. Those pretentious F*&*ing Americans that that seem to
think that they are not American because that have some extremely remote
connection outwith the US. ROTFLMAO.


Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.


Interesting to see a guy who runs his own company using a term like
"F*&*ing Americans". Don't you sell your products to Americans
Kevin..?

Prescott


Not any more!

the feeling is mutual.

 

[Kevin Aylward]

Don Prescott wrote:

Here we go again. Those pretentious F*&*ing Americans that that seem
to think that they are not American because that have some extremely
remote connection outwith the US. ROTFLMAO.


Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.


Interesting to see a guy who runs his own company using a term like
"F*&*ing Americans". Don't you sell your products to Americans
Kevin..?

Prescott

Any American reading my comments, usually takes it that it is those
*other* daft Americans that are so silly to believe that they are
German-Welsh-Belgium. They don't consider that my comments are referring
to them because they are not so stupid to believe such nonsense. Why
would they? Only the ones that actually believe that they are not
Americans have an issue. Are you one of those daft buggers to which my
comments apply to?

Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.