Driver to drive?

[Harold and Susan Vordos]

"JosephKK" <quiettechblue@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:637d559o9lg47blepb9cv9anhdrq8vfh22@4ax.com...
On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 08:22:24 GMT, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
<vordos@tds.net> wrote:

"Jamie" <jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote in message
news:g495m.12273$Il.4926@newsfe16.iad...
Doug Miller wrote:

In article <KLX4m.2006$cW.1746@newsreading01.news.tds.net>, "Harold and
Susan Vordos" <vordos@tds.net> wrote:

snip

The point is that a measurement of 245V, in and of itself, is not proof
of 3-phase delta service. I measure 243V between the two legs of my
residential service, and I'm quite sure that it's only single-phase.
How ever, it is most likely originating from a 3 phase source via a
single phase xformer.


It is always from a three phase source. That's the way it comes from the
generators, although only one leg is generally used for distribution.

Where I live, one leg of the three phase ran the power for everyone on the
hill. When they needed to increase capacity, I paid for the third leg to be
installed while they were upgrading the service with the second leg.
That's
how I ended up with three phase service in my shop, having had the primary
lines extended for over two miles.

Harold

That must have cost several pretty pennies.

Heh! I just commented on that in a different response. It cost just over
$22,000. They had quoted me over $30,000 originally, before they realized
they had to update the line. The time interval between the original
inquiry and the one where I committed was several years. Glad I waited!
We were still living in Utah, so it made no difference. We've had the three
phase service for about nine years now. Very convenient. I've had such
service since 1967.

Harold

 

[Harold and Susan Vordos]

"Doug Miller" <spambait@milmac.com> wrote in message
news:d2r4m.2140$8r.1157@nlpi064.nbdc.sbc.com...
snip---

Very doubtful, actually. Such regulation is frequently at the town, city,
or
county level, not state.

You, apparently, don't live in Washington. The state is *very much* the
authority here. Local and county officials have nothing to do with
electrical power regulations.

Harold

 

[Doug Miller]

In article <Flx5m.23371$Kn1.18793@newsfe09.iad>, "Rich." <rcres@XXcomcast.net> wrote:

"Doug Miller" <spambait@milmac.com> wrote in message
news:zmw5m.16430$iz2.787@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com...
In article <U0T4m.16949$wE4.12720@newsfe02.iad>, "Rich."
rcres@XXcomcast.net> wrote:
I've already posted several links within this thread to show that licenses
are required by law.

Not everywhere, they aren't.

To date you have posted none, nada, zilch, zip to show
any one place in this country where a license is not required to do
electrical work.

http://www.licensedelectrician.com/Electrician_License.htm

Some excerpts that you will find educational:

"Please note that where no state agency is listed below, there may be
local
licensing agencies that would have control ..."

"Illinois... no licensing of electricians at the state level, check with
local
jurisdictions"

"Indiana ... no licensing of electricians at the state level, check with
local
jurisdictions"

"Iowa ... The law requires that all individual contractors and businesses
performing "construction" work within Iowa be registered with the Division
of
Labor if they earn at least $2,000 a year from that work."

Kansas -- no state licensing agency listed

Mississippi -- no licensing information listed

"Missouri ... check with local jurisdictions for licensing info"

"New York ... check with local jurisdictions for electrical licensing
requirements"

"Ohio ... licenses commercial contractors ... they do not license
residential
contractors ..."

"The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania has no requirements related to the
registration, certification or licensure of contractors (or their
employees)
that are engaged in the construction industry. Some of Pennsylvania's
2,565
municipalities have established local licensure or certification
requirements
for contractors or construction trades people. ... The Commonwealth has no
jurisdiction in this matter ... "

So much for your blanket claim that "licenses are required by law." They
are
in many places, sure -- but this ought to make it clear to you that they
certainly are *not* required everywhere.

What your excerpts are stating is that licensing is controlled at the local
level instead of at a state level. None of them say that a license is not
required.

Wow, you just can't admit you were wrong, can you? You need to read more
carefully, particularly regarding Kansas and Ohio, and the full text provided
at that site for Pennsylvania. You also need to draw the obvious conclusion
that whether a license is, or is not, required in the states listed is a
matter of *local jurisdiction*. Your blanket statement that licenses are
required (by implication, everywhere) is simply false.

BTW, I'm still waiting for you to provide the cites I requested:
- show that it's illegal for a homeowner residing in an unincorporated area of
Green Twp, Madison Cty, Indiana to perform electrical work on his own home
without a license or permit
- show that it's illegal for anyone to perform electrical work on a residence
in the town of Noblesville, Hamilton Cty, Indiana, without a license or
permit.

You claim licenses are required for all electrical work. Prove it.

 

[Doug Miller]

In article <e1dd55d55t299rmt2sjglubrh0hgofcs78@4ax.com>, clare@snyder.on.ca wrote:

On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 11:59:18 GMT, spambait@milmac.com (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article <3fqa55tmj9u60ol0rmds7vav5nhj88bv7v@4ax.com>, ChairmanOfTheBored
RUBored@crackasmile.org> wrote:
On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 19:20:49 -0700, "JosephKK"<quiettechblue@yahoo.com
wrote:

And you just made a legal error. The NEC is adopted nationally (in
the US),

Sorry, don't believe that. Got a cite?
National Electrical code is adopted by the state in
[snip list of 39 states]
Nevada does not adopt or enforce statewide codes.
Illinois is locally adopted in the majority of the state.
Hawaii has no state-wide code.
Arizona has adopted the code in Phoenix and Tuscon areas.
21 cities and states in Alabama have adopted the code in one version
or another.

In other words, it's *not* adopted nationally.

 

[Doug Miller]

In article <ieed55h73sh117dp59qdcjuuvsophhcj1s@4ax.com>, clare@snyder.on.ca wrote:

On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 11:59:18 GMT, spambait@milmac.com (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article <3fqa55tmj9u60ol0rmds7vav5nhj88bv7v@4ax.com>, ChairmanOfTheBored
RUBored@crackasmile.org> wrote:
On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 19:20:49 -0700, "JosephKK"<quiettechblue@yahoo.com
wrote:

And you just made a legal error. The NEC is adopted nationally (in
the US),

Sorry, don't believe that. Got a cite?

http://www.nema.org/stds/fieldreps/NECadoption/upload/Combined-NEC-Adoption-Rep
ort-No-IRC.xls

Which, of course, shows clearly that it has *not* been "adopted nationally".
Thank you for providing that.

 

[Doug Miller]

In article <WjC5m.2035$cW.340@newsreading01.news.tds.net>, "Harold and Susan Vordos" <vordos@tds.net> wrote:

"Doug Miller" <spambait@milmac.com> wrote in message
news:d2r4m.2140$8r.1157@nlpi064.nbdc.sbc.com...
snip---

Very doubtful, actually. Such regulation is frequently at the town, city,
or
county level, not state.

You, apparently, don't live in Washington. The state is *very much* the
authority here. Local and county officials have nothing to do with
electrical power regulations.

No, I live in Indiana, where the state is very much *not* the authority on a
whole host of things -- illustrating the point that I've been trying to make
to the guys who insist that permits and licenses are required everywhere: it
varies from place to place.

 

[ChairmanOfTheBored]

On Fri, 10 Jul 2009 01:01:27 GMT, spambait@milmac.com (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article <u43d55p082rgspl4gdiss6ejp5ba2moqn3@4ax.com>, ChairmanOfTheBored <RUBored@crackasmile.org> wrote:
On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 11:59:18 GMT, spambait@milmac.com (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article <3fqa55tmj9u60ol0rmds7vav5nhj88bv7v@4ax.com>, ChairmanOfTheBored
RUBored@crackasmile.org> wrote:
On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 19:20:49 -0700, "JosephKK"<quiettechblue@yahoo.com
wrote:

And you just made a legal error. The NEC is adopted nationally (in
the US),

Sorry, don't believe that. Got a cite?

Quote correct post dot calm.

I guess that means you don't have a cite.

No. It mans you quoted the wrong post. I did not write that.

 

[Doug Miller]

In article <md8e55hmpqb75tgko2dg3dqfeh4m6kf87a@4ax.com>, ChairmanOfTheBored <RUBored@crackasmile.org> wrote:

On Fri, 10 Jul 2009 01:01:27 GMT, spambait@milmac.com (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article <u43d55p082rgspl4gdiss6ejp5ba2moqn3@4ax.com>, ChairmanOfTheBored
RUBored@crackasmile.org> wrote:
On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 11:59:18 GMT, spambait@milmac.com (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article <3fqa55tmj9u60ol0rmds7vav5nhj88bv7v@4ax.com>, ChairmanOfTheBored
RUBored@crackasmile.org> wrote:
On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 19:20:49 -0700, "JosephKK"<quiettechblue@yahoo.com
wrote:

And you just made a legal error. The NEC is adopted nationally (in
the US),

Sorry, don't believe that. Got a cite?

Quote correct post dot calm.

I guess that means you don't have a cite.

No. It mans you quoted the wrong post. I did not write that.

No, it means I didn't trim the attributions properly. Sorry about that.

 

[ChairmanOfTheBored]

On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 20:02:21 -0500, krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

Why can't you stay on topic?

It is the same thing. Have you ever even seen a UID?

 

[ChairmanOfTheBored]

On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 20:02:21 -0500, krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

Who said anything about optics? By your definition "octal",
"hexadecimal", and "ASCII", don't exist.

Not at all. As far as optical goes, how do you think the tape is read?
The holes are read by the reader using a visual means. That means that
each hole is a binary decision. It doesn't matter that a series of holes
were organized into a character or word. by the system doing the reading.
I was talking about individual holes.

So if a single hole represents an entire character, I'd be surprised.

 

[Paul Hovnanian P.E.]

Spehro Pefhany wrote:

[snip]

The electricians I engaged to run 3-phase 208 40A wire from a panel to
a new machine (with a plug etc), non union, but licensed... they
insisted I interpret the machine manual for them (I'm not an
electrician--- they might have noticed my iron ring but I think they
just wanted 'the customer' (in their mind) to take responsibility).

Of course. They've been contracted to install the branch circuit and plug,
not commission a piece of equipment with which they have no familiarity.

They also refused to have anything to do with turning the new machine
on. ;-) And I didn't want the client company to pay $2K just to have
some joker from the manufacturer hanging around while the breaker was
flipped, so I did that myself. ;-)

Maybe they've had problems with knuckleheads trying to rip them off?

Well, look at this thread. Weeks after what appears to be a properly
operating circuit is installed, someone fries some expensive machinery.
Their first question is: What did the handyman do wrong?

--
Paul Hovnanian paul@hovnanian.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Have gnu, will travel.

 

[Jim Stewart]

clare@snyder.on.ca wrote:

On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 11:14:43 -0700, Jim Stewart <jstewart@jkmicro.com
wrote:

life imitates life wrote:
On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 01:33:29 GMT, spambait@milmac.com (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article <e3fa55lbl02gq5pkhbmh8tredn4h79e9ps@4ax.com>, life imitates life wrote:
On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 11:46:16 -0400, "Rich." <rcres@XXcomcast.net> wrote:

only legal for him to do so if a homeowners permit is pulled
Some jurisdictions do not even have any such animal as a "homeowner's
permit".

In Ohio, for example, I would have to get a "building permit" to make
an add on to my structure or to add a permanent building on my property.

I do not know, however, what the requirements are for any electrical
work done in said project.

Regardless, to be legal, ALL has to be inspected.
Depends on where you are. There are jurisdictions that have no permitting,
licensing, or inspection requirements.
I would think that such conditions are based on nearest proximity of
assets that belong to others.
You might think that. I'd be inclined to think
that it has something to do with the influence of the
electrician's union in the particular jurisdiction...


In the VAST majority of the country licencing and the unions are
totally divorced from each other.

In some imaginary 7th grade civics class.

In the real world that I live in, the various
unions never miss an opportunity to support
any elected official that is willing to pass
laws or code that will increase their wealth
and job security.

 

[Richard Cranium]

On Fri, 10 Jul 2009 04:53:33 -0700, ChairmanOfTheBored
<RUBored@crackasmile.org> wrote:

On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 20:02:21 -0500, krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

Who said anything about optics? By your definition "octal",
"hexadecimal", and "ASCII", don't exist.


Not at all. As far as optical goes, how do you think the tape is read?
The holes are read by the reader using a visual means. That means that
each hole is a binary decision. It doesn't matter that a series of holes
were organized into a character or word. by the system doing the reading.
I was talking about individual holes.

So if a single hole represents an entire character, I'd be surprised.

Speaking of individual holes ... aw, Archie - you can giuess the rest
yourself like a good little sphincter.

 

[JosephKK]

On Fri, 10 Jul 2009 21:15:19 -0700, jk <klessig@suddenlink.net> wrote:

krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:


That's unusual. All three phases are generally on each pole in
populated areas. Some rural areas do have only one phase distributed
down each road. It is uncommon to have all three phases run into a
home, though.

For SOME value of populated that may be true, but almost every where
I have lived, has only singe phase on the poles, in residential areas.
Nearest 3 ph to me is at least a half mile.


jk

Depends a lot on where you live. On the street where i grew up it
could be had, but rotary converters were often cheaper. Most places i
lived in the LA area it could be had from the local pole. Where i
live now it is over 10,000 to get 3 phase.

 

[JosephKK]

On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 23:17:57 -0400, clare@snyder.on.ca wrote:

On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 19:58:01 -0700, Archimedes' Lever
OneBigLever@InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote:

On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 21:16:52 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
lionslair@consolidated.net> wrote:

I'm concerned that the system engineer (was one) didn't know what
they were doing - no internal protection - or was the customer
to cheap and didn't buy an option.

I hate that kind of option - to lower the price and risk failures.

Power lines have gone from 200 to 245 in my lifetime and will likely
continue to inch up.

Remember 100v and then 107 and 110 and 115 and 120 and 125 and 130...

Pushing more power with the same cables - requires higher voltages.

Martin

We have never gone above 120 anywhere in the lower 48 that I remember.


Please refrain from top posting.


I believe you are mistaken. Under the REA in the 1930s and '40s the
nominal voltage was 135. Voltage drops over the long rural lines made
variations significant - a short lane farm got 135 while a long lane
farm might get only 100 with any load running. IIRC much of this was
also 25 hz. (All early "niagara project" power was 25Hz - changed over
in the early fifties - I can still remember having new electric
clocks, and motors on washing machine and refrigerator being changed
over when I was a wee lad on the farm in Ontario.

"long life" lightbulbs sold for urban use even a few decades ago were
"farm bulbs" rated for 135 volts.DuroTest was a major manufacturer of
135 volt bulbs IIRC.

Still common in Mexico (DuroTest in Mexico is now DuroMex)

I seem to remember reading that the early Niagara generators are
indeed 25 Hz. Also that instead of trying to replace the generators
they installed frequency/phase converters when they connected it to
the grid. It seems that the AC generators were not economically
rebuildable or replaceable. Now where was that article?

 

[JosephKK]

On Fri, 10 Jul 2009 00:58:02 GMT, spambait@milmac.com (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article <U0T4m.16949$wE4.12720@newsfe02.iad>, "Rich." <rcres@XXcomcast.net> wrote:
I've already posted several links within this thread to show that licenses
are required by law.

Not everywhere, they aren't.

To date you have posted none, nada, zilch, zip to show
any one place in this country where a license is not required to do
electrical work.

http://www.licensedelectrician.com/Electrician_License.htm

Some excerpts that you will find educational:

"Please note that where no state agency is listed below, there may be local
licensing agencies that would have control ..."

"Illinois... no licensing of electricians at the state level, check with local
jurisdictions"

"Indiana ... no licensing of electricians at the state level, check with local
jurisdictions"

"Iowa ... The law requires that all individual contractors and businesses
performing “construction” work within Iowa be registered with the Division of
Labor if they earn at least $2,000 a year from that work."

Kansas -- no state licensing agency listed

Mississippi -- no licensing information listed

"Missouri ... check with local jurisdictions for licensing info"

"New York ... check with local jurisdictions for electrical licensing
requirements"

"Ohio ... licenses commercial contractors ... they do not license residential
contractors ..."

"The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania has no requirements related to the
registration, certification or licensure of contractors (or their employees)
that are engaged in the construction industry. Some of Pennsylvania’s 2,565
municipalities have established local licensure or certification requirements
for contractors or construction trades people. ... The Commonwealth has no
jurisdiction in this matter ... "

So much for your blanket claim that "licenses are required by law." They are
in many places, sure -- but this ought to make it clear to you that they
certainly are *not* required everywhere.

You have staked your claim well, but forgot to provide any backup
(links). I will take your position under advisement.

 

[Doug Miller]

In article <mvff555u4afatdqh1l10k8b994er2i6nfs@4ax.com>, "JosephKK"<quiettechblue@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Fri, 10 Jul 2009 00:58:02 GMT, spambait@milmac.com (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article <U0T4m.16949$wE4.12720@newsfe02.iad>, "Rich." =
rcres@XXcomcast.net> wrote:
I've already posted several links within this thread to show that =
licenses=20
are required by law.=20

Not everywhere, they aren't.

To date you have posted none, nada, zilch, zip to show=20
any one place in this country where a license is not required to do=20
electrical work.=20

http://www.licensedelectrician.com/Electrician_License.htm

Some excerpts that you will find educational:

"Please note that where no state agency is listed below, there may be =
local=20
licensing agencies that would have control ..."

"Illinois... no licensing of electricians at the state level, check with=
local=20
jurisdictions"

"Indiana ... no licensing of electricians at the state level, check with=
local=20
jurisdictions"

"Iowa ... The law requires that all individual contractors and =
businesses=20
performing =93construction=94 work within Iowa be registered with the =
Division of=20
Labor if they earn at least $2,000 a year from that work."

Kansas -- no state licensing agency listed

Mississippi -- no licensing information listed

"Missouri ... check with local jurisdictions for licensing info"

"New York ... check with local jurisdictions for electrical licensing=20
requirements"

"Ohio ... licenses commercial contractors ... they do not license =
residential=20
contractors ..."

"The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania has no requirements related to the=20
registration, certification or licensure of contractors (or their =
employees)=20
that are engaged in the construction industry. Some of Pennsylvania=92s =
2,565=20
municipalities have established local licensure or certification =
requirements=20
for contractors or construction trades people. ... The Commonwealth has =
no=20
jurisdiction in this matter ... "

So much for your blanket claim that "licenses are required by law." They=
are=20
in many places, sure -- but this ought to make it clear to you that they=
=20
certainly are *not* required everywhere.

You have staked your claim well, but forgot to provide any backup
(links). I will take your position under advisement.

Look again. I posted the link.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

jk wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:


You could use knob & tube in rural structures a lot longer than in
cities, but that didn't make it a good idea.


And what do you have against K&T wiring?

jk

It is nasty when you are running a metal fish tape through the walls!

--
Joe Leikhim K4SAT
"The RFI-EMI-GUY"Š

"Use only Genuine Interocitor Parts" Tom Servo ;-P

 

[RoyLFuchs]

On Fri, 10 Jul 2009 20:59:15 -0700, jk <klessig@suddenlink.net> wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:



You could use knob & tube in rural structures a lot longer than in
cities, but that didn't make it a good idea.


And what do you have against K&T wiring?

jk

Set your fucking PC clock right, asshole.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

jk wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:


You could use knob & tube in rural structures a lot longer than in
cities, but that didn't make it a good idea.

And what do you have against K&T wiring?

Fires, electrocutions, a lot was installed long before there was any
regulations, so it is done badly and is in exposed locations. Wiring
that had the insulation chewed off by animals in outbuildings. Some is
close to 100 years old.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!