Driver to drive?

whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote in
news:93ae00dd-3b30-490f-8398-8a7c2f3845cb@googlegroups.com:

CO poisoning causes your blood to pass less oxygen to your cells,
it doesn't matter how much oxygen is in the air if it doesn't
interact with normal hemoglobin and become oxygen available to
power your brain.

I know what the process is. You are the third ditz to bark your mini
primer and it was never needed.

And the pollution controls I referred to were the automotive controls
the US feds put in place to make car makers here put systems in place
to reduce emissions.

Not some towering smoke stack thing.

 

Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote in
news:69a68f8d-3343-4f20-b593-33d01b28b4ba@googlegroups.com:

octane reduced? if anything it has been increased to take
advantage of the improved efficiency of higher compression in
modern engines

You are fucking lost. The history of octane has octane numbers of
up to 104 back in the sixties. Engines had 12.5 to 1 compression.
You have to add to today's gas to get anywhere near that number. Or
use expensive av gas. "Higher compression in modern engines" Wow...
what a joke. Yes it has crept back up a bit, but nowhere near the
wasteful engine specs of the leaded gas days of the sixties.

MAYBE the reduced compression scenario which has pervaded has risen
back up a slight bit, but only because precision injection is now in
place instead of carburetion. But octane levels were reduced and so
were compression numbers to 9 to 1 or less for a long time...
decades even.

They have crept back up, but today's muscle cars have their brain
boxes set for high octane boost modes to get the HP numbers they
tout. Normal driving mode is far less. I think they run around 10.5
to 1.

Recently saw a variable compression design too. Audi or one of the
Jap players makes it. Looks pretty advanced but an expensive
crankshaft assembly.

But I doubt seriously that there are any 12.5 to 1 engines being
mounted on car production lines anywhere like the sixties had.

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 2020-02-08 15:27, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote in
news:69a68f8d-3343-4f20-b593-33d01b28b4ba@googlegroups.com:

octane reduced? if anything it has been increased to take
advantage of the improved efficiency of higher compression in
modern engines


You are fucking lost. The history of octane has octane numbers of
up to 104 back in the sixties.

Back then the number on the pump was "research octane number". IIRC
octane rating is the percentage of n-octane in a straight
n-hexane/n-octane mixture that has the same knock resistance as the
given gasoline. It's based on some ancient curve fitting, which is why
there can be octane ratings over 100 in the first place.

There are two common methods of quoting octane rating, the 'research'
method and the 'motor' method. The research method gives higher
numbers. Nowadays the pump octane rating is '(R+M)/2'.

For most gasolines (according to Wiki) the motor octane number is 8 to
12 points lower than the research number, so 97 (R+M)/2 isn't very
different from 104 RON.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christense]

lørdag den 8. februar 2020 kl. 21.27.10 UTC+1 skrev DecadentLinux...@decadence.org:

Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote in
news:69a68f8d-3343-4f20-b593-33d01b28b4ba@googlegroups.com:

octane reduced? if anything it has been increased to take
advantage of the improved efficiency of higher compression in
modern engines


You are fucking lost. The history of octane has octane numbers of
up to 104 back in the sixties. Engines had 12.5 to 1 compression.
You have to add to today's gas to get anywhere near that number. Or
use expensive av gas. "Higher compression in modern engines" Wow...
what a joke. Yes it has crept back up a bit, but nowhere near the
wasteful engine specs of the leaded gas days of the sixties.

here they are phasing out 92, standard is 96,98 and most have a premium
brand that is 100, or there is the E85 biofuel that is ~105

MAYBE the reduced compression scenario which has pervaded has risen
back up a slight bit, but only because precision injection is now in
place instead of carburetion. But octane levels were reduced and so
were compression numbers to 9 to 1 or less for a long time...
decades even.

more like 10:1 even for turbo engines

They have crept back up, but today's muscle cars have their brain
boxes set for high octane boost modes to get the HP numbers they
tout. Normal driving mode is far less. I think they run around 10.5
to 1.

all modern engines vary their settings depending on the fuel

Recently saw a variable compression design too. Audi or one of the
Jap players makes it. Looks pretty advanced but an expensive
crankshaft assembly.

But I doubt seriously that there are any 12.5 to 1 engines being
mounted on car production lines anywhere like the sixties had.

Mazda and Toyota’s current 2.0l i4 is 13:1 or 14:1, some of the VW
engines are 12:1 or 12.5:1

 

[Phil Allison]

bitrex wrote:

---------------

There are plenty of very attractive and friendly single women in America
we don't need to go to Australia for 'em thankfully!

** Never the question.

It's also convenient because we speak the same language.

** FYI Australians speak English better than Americans do.

Also in America there aren't 150 types of highly deadly venomous or
poisonous creatures waiting to murder you every time you step outside to
go on a date or take a swim in the ocean.

** ROTFL - not that ridiculous old myth again !!


FYI: Mr Rex,

Australia does not have hundreds of nukes aimed at it, nor is it a target for terrorism from about 20 nations nor are half the population armed with hand guns, automatic rifles and shot guns nor do we have a massive race problem nor a significant illegal immigration problem nor is the place awash will illegal drugs and the associated crime.

The police do not fear being shot every time they pull over a motorist.

We have had no school or church shootings and don't expect any.

Australia is one of the safest modern counties places you can live.

Plus there are very few bloody idiots like you here too.



...... Phil

 

Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in
news:34ff6c4a-955d-8f3b-cd16-2b9d0779f8da@electrooptical.net:

On 2020-02-08 15:27, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org
wrote:
Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote in
news:69a68f8d-3343-4f20-b593-33d01b28b4ba@googlegroups.com:

octane reduced? if anything it has been increased to take
advantage of the improved efficiency of higher compression in
modern engines


You are fucking lost. The history of octane has octane
numbers of
up to 104 back in the sixties.

Back then the number on the pump was "research octane number".
IIRC octane rating is the percentage of n-octane in a straight
n-hexane/n-octane mixture that has the same knock resistance as
the given gasoline. It's based on some ancient curve fitting,
which is why there can be octane ratings over 100 in the first
place.

There are two common methods of quoting octane rating, the
'research' method and the 'motor' method. The research method
gives higher numbers. Nowadays the pump octane rating is
'(R+M)/2'.

For most gasolines (according to Wiki) the motor octane number is
8 to 12 points lower than the research number, so 97 (R+M)/2 isn't
very different from 104 RON.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

You absolutely cannot run 97 of today's declaration gas in a 12.5
to 1 compression small block that required yesterday's 104 declared
RON number to run.

Not without retarding the ignition timing severely anyway.

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2020-02-08, upsidedown@downunder.com <upsidedown@downunder.com> wrote:

On Fri, 7 Feb 2020 12:13:35 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

fredag den 7. februar 2020 kl. 21.01.03 UTC+1 skrev DecadentLinux...@decadence.org:
dplatt@coop.radagast.org (Dave Platt) wrote in
news:qvq0hg-0mu.ln1@coop.radagast.org:

As to why it's not used more as a coolant... I suspect that the
higher pressures required to liquify it (as compared to the
halogen-based refrigerants commonly used) may play a part in that.


the fluorocarbon based coolants were far easier to work with. Remember
when they used dangerous ammonia as a coolant. It works very well.
Another good one is propane or butane, but BOTH are a no-go for obvious
reasons.

ammonia is still used in big industrial refrigeration, here most if not
all new refrigerators and freezers use propane (R290)

Absorbtion fridges do not have a compressor but requires a heat
source. It is often used in places in which there is no electricity,
such as summer cottages and some form of gas (propane) is used as heat
source.

In large industrial systems there are usually some waste heat sources
or some combustible waste products that can be used as the heat
source in the cooling process.

in large industrial systems they use a compressor and pure ammonia as the
working fluid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peVAaLIJJ6c

--
Jasen.

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Sunday, February 9, 2020 at 7:33:05 AM UTC+11, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:

whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote in
news:93ae00dd-3b30-490f-8398-8a7c2f3845cb@googlegroups.com:

CO poisoning causes your blood to pass less oxygen to your cells,
it doesn't matter how much oxygen is in the air if it doesn't
interact with normal hemoglobin and become oxygen available to
power your brain.

I know what the process is. You are the third ditz to bark your mini
primer and it was never needed.

DLUNU is fond of his own errors, and isn't going to let anybody striaghten out his thinking.

And the pollution controls I referred to were the automotive controls
the US feds put in place to make car makers here put systems in place
to reduce emissions.

Not some towering smoke stack thing.

What matters is the crap in the air you breath, not where the crap comes from.

The black fog that killed about 4000 Londoners in 1952 was mostly generated by coal being burnt in domestic fire-places - which have chimneys, not towering smoke stacks. Power stations, even then, burnt their coal more completely.

You haven't been allowed to burn coal in domestic fireplaces in "smokeless zones" in England since then, which is to say, big cities.

Places like Southampton, Brighton and Cambridge weren't big enough to qualify.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Sunday, February 9, 2020 at 1:01:39 AM UTC+11, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:

Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in
news:44d971a7-8705-408d-8521-0d1c27d1e7c4@googlegroups.com:

SO. DECIDEDLY. The CO producing motor is the one running rich
or the one running with reduced oxygen. The motors of the sixties
had very high compression but let out more than they burned.

Fat chance of reducing oxygen levels enough to make a difference.

It DOES make a difference, dingledorf.

You've snipped enough to obscure the fact that I talking about oxygen levels in a garage containing a car wit it's engine running.

That is WHY pollution controls were adopted and WHY gasoline got reduced in octane and WHY engines were made more efficient, as opposed to the muscle car era where they were overboard for power at the expense of combustion
completion.

None of that is remotely true. Pollution controls don't have anything to do with oxygen levels in the atmosphere and everything to do with minimising pollutants coming out of the car engine. Incomplete combustion means more pollutants.

Quite why you obsess about oxygen levels escapes me. It's lunacy.

> You are clueless.

You may find this conclusion appealing, but in reality it you who is clueless.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Sunday, February 9, 2020 at 9:38:49 AM UTC+11, Phil Allison wrote:

bitrex wrote:

---------------

There are plenty of very attractive and friendly single women in America
we don't need to go to Australia for 'em thankfully!

** Never the question.

It's also convenient because we speak the same language.

** FYI Australians speak English better than Americans do.

Australian English is closer to British English than American English is.

This doesn't mean that Australians speak better English than Americans do - language is about communicating, mostly with your neighbours, and all languages work pretty much equally well for that.

Written language lets you communicate with people who are further away, and it isn't just written down speech.

Also in America there aren't 150 types of highly deadly venomous or
poisonous creatures waiting to murder you every time you step outside to
go on a date or take a swim in the ocean.

** ROTFL - not that ridiculous old myth again !!

It's not entirely false, but all those venomous creatures killed only 64 people over the past twelve years

https://theconversation.com/welcome-to-australia-a-land-of-creatures-out-to-kill-you-maybe-71490

and 34 of them died from anaphylactic shock, 27 of them from a bee or wasp sting, which kill people all around the world, and 27 died from snake bite.

FYI: Mr Rex,

Australia does not have hundreds of nukes aimed at it, nor is it a target for terrorism from about 20 nations nor are half the population armed with hand guns, automatic rifles and shot guns nor do we have a massive race problem nor a significant illegal immigration problem nor is the place awash will illegal drugs and the associated crime.

Australia does have a race problem, Indigenous Australians die quite a but younger than the population as a whole. We are working to try and improve the situation, but the problem is some way from being solved.

The police do not fear being shot every time they pull over a motorist.

We have had no school or church shootings and don't expect any.

Australia is one of the safest modern counties places you can live.

Plus there are very few bloody idiots like you here too.

Not exactly true. There are a couple National Country Party politicians who are remarkably idiotic.

George Christensen comes to mind.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Christensen

Even our current prime minster once showed up in Parliament fondling a lump of coal. He was courting the mining interests who seem to pay a lot of his party's election expenses, but it was a trifle moronic.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

Phil ! Glad to see you back motherfucker.

What happened ? I mean it was a while and people stared almost getting not sick of you.

Can't have that shit, once you are in SED you can never get out. We make the mafia look like McDonalds.

 

[Phil Allison]

jurb...@gmail.com wrote:

-------------------------

Phil ! Glad to see you back motherfucker.

** Wot a compiliment !!

What happened ? I mean it was a while and people stared almost
getting not sick of you.

** They do say: " absence makes the heart grow fonder "

Can't have that shit, once you are in SED you can never get out.
We make the mafia look like McDonalds.

** The mafia regularly murders its opponents and defectors.

OTOH, Maccas gives it's customers bad health and sues their detractors.

All in all, Maccas does more harm cos it has million of customers and detractors.

FYI:

Believe it or not - my short absence was due to a software issue, fixed by changing my browser to Google Chrome.

Fact is stranger than fiction.



...... Phil

 

[Michael Terrell]

On Sunday, February 9, 2020 at 4:59:56 AM UTC-5, jurb...@gmail.com wrote:

Phil ! Glad to see you back motherfucker.

What happened ? I mean it was a while and people stared almost getting not sick of you.

Can't have that shit, once you are in SED you can never get out. We make the mafia look like McDonalds.

You haven't seen the newest McDonalds restaurant layout. One just opened here a few weeks ago. No counter. Just six very large touch screens with bill changers and coin dispensers or a slot for a credit card. You dig through many layers of menus, like a poorly designed website. Then you walk to the other end of the building and wait for someone to bring out the food. It looks like design rejected for a Star Wars set, or the inside of a vending machine.

I met the manager my first visit. He was bragging that it was a prototype store and all others would look like this within 20 years.

The other customers that I've talked to hate it. Several said that if McDonalds goes ahead and converts all stores to this layout, they hope to see them go out of business. I've been there twice. The first was bad enough, but I did give it a second chance. Then I saw about 30 people waiting for their food. I turned around and left.

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christense]

søndag den 9. februar 2020 kl. 13.31.39 UTC+1 skrev Michael Terrell:

On Sunday, February 9, 2020 at 4:59:56 AM UTC-5, jurb...@gmail.com wrote:
Phil ! Glad to see you back motherfucker.

What happened ? I mean it was a while and people stared almost getting not sick of you.

Can't have that shit, once you are in SED you can never get out. We make the mafia look like McDonalds.

You haven't seen the newest McDonalds restaurant layout. One just opened here a few weeks ago. No counter. Just six very large touch screens with bill changers and coin dispensers or a slot for a credit card. You dig through many layers of menus, like a poorly designed website. Then you walk to the other end of the building and wait for someone to bring out the food. It looks like design rejected for a Star Wars set, or the inside of a vending machine.

I met the manager my first visit. He was bragging that it was a prototype store and all others would look like this within 20 years.

McD has been like that here for quite some time

The other customers that I've talked to hate it. Several said that if McDonalds goes ahead and converts all stores to this layout, they hope to see them go out of business. I've been there twice. The first was bad enough, but I did give it a second chance. Then I saw about 30 people waiting for their food. I turned around and left.

seems to work ok here, the staff can concentrate on making food instead of talking to customers

 

[bitrex]

On 2/9/20 9:54 AM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

søndag den 9. februar 2020 kl. 13.31.39 UTC+1 skrev Michael Terrell:
On Sunday, February 9, 2020 at 4:59:56 AM UTC-5, jurb...@gmail.com wrote:
Phil ! Glad to see you back motherfucker.

What happened ? I mean it was a while and people stared almost getting not sick of you.

Can't have that shit, once you are in SED you can never get out. We make the mafia look like McDonalds.

You haven't seen the newest McDonalds restaurant layout. One just opened here a few weeks ago. No counter. Just six very large touch screens with bill changers and coin dispensers or a slot for a credit card. You dig through many layers of menus, like a poorly designed website. Then you walk to the other end of the building and wait for someone to bring out the food. It looks like design rejected for a Star Wars set, or the inside of a vending machine.

I met the manager my first visit. He was bragging that it was a prototype store and all others would look like this within 20 years.

McD has been like that here for quite some time


The other customers that I've talked to hate it. Several said that if McDonalds goes ahead and converts all stores to this layout, they hope to see them go out of business. I've been there twice. The first was bad enough, but I did give it a second chance. Then I saw about 30 people waiting for their food. I turned around and left.

seems to work ok here, the staff can concentrate on making food instead of talking to customers

Yeah lol the difference is the ones in your country probably work, at
the one near me what happens 50% of the time is the machine is out of
paper so it doesn't print your order number and then if you tell the
clerk your order number they say "Oh we didn't get anything on our
display about that" and you have to tell them it again anyway so what's
the point. /shrug

All automation systems do require some regular maintenance which as a
general rule American companies/employees won't do until you reach a
critical mass of complaints or someone is injured or killed.

 

[Rich S]

On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 7:42:51 PM UTC-5, Rich S wrote:

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 12:32:14 AM UTC, Rich S wrote:
On Friday, December 6, 2019 at 3:56:15 AM UTC, jla...@.wrote:
On Thu, 5 Dec 2019 18:44:08 -0800 (PST), whit3rd <@.
wrote:

On Thursday, December 5, 2019 at 5:09:46 PM UTC-8, John Larkin wrote:

Yikes. The 324 shows visible crossover distortion at 60 Hz!

'visible' isn't a measure of distortion.
-3 points, units.


If I can see it on an oscilloscope, it's a lot of distortion.

Seriously, you DO know that class B is better for battery power,
but class AB or A for distortion?

I know that there are modern RRIO opamps that are faster, use less
power, and have no crossover distortion.

The LM324 is 45 years old. Did Widlar design the 324?

We met Widlar's girlfriend at the bar at the Washington Square Bar and
Grille, while he was living in Mexico. She was amazed that anyone had
heard of him. She didn't know what he did, but had interesting
stories.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

Tom Fredericksen, I believe. He published an Art of Analog Ic design book
under Nat Semi's catalog. I think Pease mentioned him in one of RAP's
articles, too.

https://www.planetanalog.com/tom-fredericksen-memories-on-the-passing-of-another-silicon-valley-original-innovator/

I say Fredericksen because he make much use of the LM324
in his book:

https://www.amazon.com/Intuitive-Amps-Basics-Useful-Applications/dp/9997796675

I have a copy somewhere. I'll check when I'm back in the office.

Confirmed. I finally got my copy back from the person I loaned it to. On the back cover is his bio:
- - - - -
Thomas M. Frederiksen is a linear IC design engineer with National
Semiconductor Corporation, Santa Clara, California. Upon earning his BSEE
degree from California State Polytechnic University at San Luis Obispo, he
started his professional career as a development engineer with the Motorola
Systems Develop ment Laboratory. Subsequently he worked with the
Microelectronics Group at Hughes Semiconductor Division and later became
senior project engineer at Motorola Semiconductor Products Division.
In 1971 Mr. Frederiksen joined his present firm where he developed
custom ICs and standard single-supply building block circuits for automotive
and industrial applications. Today he acts as technical consultant to
National's Linear Design group and enjoys traveling throughout the world as
a leading participant in the company's CMOS and Linear seminars.
Mr. Frederiksen holds more than 40 patents on Iinear ICs and devices,
and is a frequent contributor to professional Iiterature. In 1977 he received
the International Solid State Circuits Conference Best Paper Award. He also
designed the Quad Amps LM3900, LM324, and LM339. The LM324 is today's most
popular Op Amp.
His first book, Intuitive IC Electronics (McGraw-Hill, 1982), has been
followed by Intuitive IC Op Amps and Intuitive IC CMOS Evolution. All are
part of National's Semiconductor Technology Series. Mr. Frederiksen is
currently working on a four book series on the basics of Iinear and digital
electronics which he expects to complete in Iate 1984.
- - - - -

 

[speff]

On Sunday, 23 February 2020 17:56:48 UTC-5, Rich S wrote:

On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 7:42:51 PM UTC-5, Rich S wrote:
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 12:32:14 AM UTC, Rich S wrote:
On Friday, December 6, 2019 at 3:56:15 AM UTC, jla...@.wrote:
On Thu, 5 Dec 2019 18:44:08 -0800 (PST), whit3rd <@.
wrote:

On Thursday, December 5, 2019 at 5:09:46 PM UTC-8, John Larkin wrote:

Yikes. The 324 shows visible crossover distortion at 60 Hz!

'visible' isn't a measure of distortion.
-3 points, units.


If I can see it on an oscilloscope, it's a lot of distortion.

Seriously, you DO know that class B is better for battery power,
but class AB or A for distortion?

I know that there are modern RRIO opamps that are faster, use less
power, and have no crossover distortion.

The LM324 is 45 years old. Did Widlar design the 324?

We met Widlar's girlfriend at the bar at the Washington Square Bar and
Grille, while he was living in Mexico. She was amazed that anyone had
heard of him. She didn't know what he did, but had interesting
stories.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

Tom Fredericksen, I believe. He published an Art of Analog Ic design book
under Nat Semi's catalog. I think Pease mentioned him in one of RAP's
articles, too.

https://www.planetanalog.com/tom-fredericksen-memories-on-the-passing-of-another-silicon-valley-original-innovator/

I say Fredericksen because he make much use of the LM324
in his book:

https://www.amazon.com/Intuitive-Amps-Basics-Useful-Applications/dp/9997796675

I have a copy somewhere. I'll check when I'm back in the office.

Confirmed. I finally got my copy back from the person I loaned it to. On the back cover is his bio:
- - - - -
Thomas M. Frederiksen is a linear IC design engineer with National
Semiconductor Corporation, Santa Clara, California. Upon earning his BSEE
degree from California State Polytechnic University at San Luis Obispo, he
started his professional career as a development engineer with the Motorola
Systems Develop ment Laboratory. Subsequently he worked with the
Microelectronics Group at Hughes Semiconductor Division and later became
senior project engineer at Motorola Semiconductor Products Division.
In 1971 Mr. Frederiksen joined his present firm where he developed
custom ICs and standard single-supply building block circuits for automotive
and industrial applications. Today he acts as technical consultant to
National's Linear Design group and enjoys traveling throughout the world as
a leading participant in the company's CMOS and Linear seminars.
Mr. Frederiksen holds more than 40 patents on Iinear ICs and devices,
and is a frequent contributor to professional Iiterature. In 1977 he received
the International Solid State Circuits Conference Best Paper Award. He also
designed the Quad Amps LM3900, LM324, and LM339. The LM324 is today's most
popular Op Amp.
His first book, Intuitive IC Electronics (McGraw-Hill, 1982), has been
followed by Intuitive IC Op Amps and Intuitive IC CMOS Evolution. All are
part of National's Semiconductor Technology Series. Mr. Frederiksen is
currently working on a four book series on the basics of Iinear and digital
electronics which he expects to complete in Iate 1984.
- - - - -

This paper:

Russell, R. W., & Frederiksen, T. M. (1972). Automotive and industrial electronic building blocks. IEEE Journal of Solid-State Circuits, 7(6), 446–454 describes the LM324 design in some detail.

Manuscript received April 14, 1972; revised July 6, 1972

They also acknowledge as follows:

The authors wish to credit J. E. Solomon for providing the new gm reduction technique, E. L. Long for contributing to the design of the IC NPN power transistor with excellent safe operating area, D. Culmer for assisting in circuit development and evaluation, and finally B. Owens and A. Smith for the IC layout design.

Jung mentions both authors in his "Op Amp Applications Handbook".

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

 

[speff]

On Sunday, 23 February 2020 21:43:45 UTC-5, speff wrote:

On Sunday, 23 February 2020 17:56:48 UTC-5, Rich S wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 7:42:51 PM UTC-5, Rich S wrote:
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 12:32:14 AM UTC, Rich S wrote:
On Friday, December 6, 2019 at 3:56:15 AM UTC, jla...@.wrote:
On Thu, 5 Dec 2019 18:44:08 -0800 (PST), whit3rd <@.
wrote:

On Thursday, December 5, 2019 at 5:09:46 PM UTC-8, John Larkin wrote:

Yikes. The 324 shows visible crossover distortion at 60 Hz!

'visible' isn't a measure of distortion.
-3 points, units.


If I can see it on an oscilloscope, it's a lot of distortion.

Seriously, you DO know that class B is better for battery power,
but class AB or A for distortion?

I know that there are modern RRIO opamps that are faster, use less
power, and have no crossover distortion.

The LM324 is 45 years old. Did Widlar design the 324?

We met Widlar's girlfriend at the bar at the Washington Square Bar and
Grille, while he was living in Mexico. She was amazed that anyone had
heard of him. She didn't know what he did, but had interesting
stories.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

Tom Fredericksen, I believe. He published an Art of Analog Ic design book
under Nat Semi's catalog. I think Pease mentioned him in one of RAP's
articles, too.

https://www.planetanalog.com/tom-fredericksen-memories-on-the-passing-of-another-silicon-valley-original-innovator/

I say Fredericksen because he make much use of the LM324
in his book:

https://www.amazon.com/Intuitive-Amps-Basics-Useful-Applications/dp/9997796675

I have a copy somewhere. I'll check when I'm back in the office.

Confirmed. I finally got my copy back from the person I loaned it to. On the back cover is his bio:
- - - - -
Thomas M. Frederiksen is a linear IC design engineer with National
Semiconductor Corporation, Santa Clara, California. Upon earning his BSEE
degree from California State Polytechnic University at San Luis Obispo, he
started his professional career as a development engineer with the Motorola
Systems Develop ment Laboratory. Subsequently he worked with the
Microelectronics Group at Hughes Semiconductor Division and later became
senior project engineer at Motorola Semiconductor Products Division.
In 1971 Mr. Frederiksen joined his present firm where he developed
custom ICs and standard single-supply building block circuits for automotive
and industrial applications. Today he acts as technical consultant to
National's Linear Design group and enjoys traveling throughout the world as
a leading participant in the company's CMOS and Linear seminars.
Mr. Frederiksen holds more than 40 patents on Iinear ICs and devices,
and is a frequent contributor to professional Iiterature. In 1977 he received
the International Solid State Circuits Conference Best Paper Award. He also
designed the Quad Amps LM3900, LM324, and LM339. The LM324 is today's most
popular Op Amp.
His first book, Intuitive IC Electronics (McGraw-Hill, 1982), has been
followed by Intuitive IC Op Amps and Intuitive IC CMOS Evolution. All are
part of National's Semiconductor Technology Series. Mr. Frederiksen is
currently working on a four book series on the basics of Iinear and digital
electronics which he expects to complete in Iate 1984.
- - - - -

This paper:

Russell, R. W., & Frederiksen, T. M. (1972). Automotive and industrial electronic building blocks. IEEE Journal of Solid-State Circuits, 7(6), 446–454 describes the LM324 design in some detail.

Manuscript received April 14, 1972; revised July 6, 1972

They also acknowledge as follows:

The authors wish to credit J. E. Solomon for providing the new gm reduction technique, E. L. Long for contributing to the design of the IC NPN power transistor with excellent safe operating area, D. Culmer for assisting in circuit development and evaluation, and finally B. Owens and A. Smith for the IC layout design.

Jung mentions both authors in his "Op Amp Applications Handbook".

That paper is well worth a read. The LM339 is also discussed (essentially the same front end as the LM324).. neither by name. They used mutant multi-collector transistors to reduce gm to permit a much smaller compensation cap (5pF rather than 30-50 pF, thus saving ~1000-1800 mil^2 per die. They also discuss the bias block and startup (both of which are hidden in the simplified schematic shown on the datasheet).

The ballasted NPN transistor with a good SOA was used in a third part that I don't recall seeing at the time. Essentially the very simple LM339/LM324 front end with a power stage. And it sounds like they coupled **two** front ends to each output stage (so 4 front ends and two output NPN darlingtons capable of a few hundred mA and driving a large-ish incandescent lamp with the large surge. And it would have been in a DIP-14.

Anyone remember a bipolar part like that? It's much simpler than the later LM311 type parts.

https://i.imgur.com/MDOkMTB.png

They at least made one run because they have a die photo.

https://i.imgur.com/QuArRpx.png

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

 

[George Herold]

On Monday, February 24, 2020 at 7:55:22 AM UTC-5, speff wrote:

On Sunday, 23 February 2020 21:43:45 UTC-5, speff wrote:
On Sunday, 23 February 2020 17:56:48 UTC-5, Rich S wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 7:42:51 PM UTC-5, Rich S wrote:
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 12:32:14 AM UTC, Rich S wrote:
On Friday, December 6, 2019 at 3:56:15 AM UTC, jla...@.wrote:
On Thu, 5 Dec 2019 18:44:08 -0800 (PST), whit3rd <@.
wrote:

On Thursday, December 5, 2019 at 5:09:46 PM UTC-8, John Larkin wrote:

Yikes. The 324 shows visible crossover distortion at 60 Hz!

'visible' isn't a measure of distortion.
-3 points, units.


If I can see it on an oscilloscope, it's a lot of distortion.

Seriously, you DO know that class B is better for battery power,
but class AB or A for distortion?

I know that there are modern RRIO opamps that are faster, use less
power, and have no crossover distortion.

The LM324 is 45 years old. Did Widlar design the 324?

We met Widlar's girlfriend at the bar at the Washington Square Bar and
Grille, while he was living in Mexico. She was amazed that anyone had
heard of him. She didn't know what he did, but had interesting
stories.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

Tom Fredericksen, I believe. He published an Art of Analog Ic design book
under Nat Semi's catalog. I think Pease mentioned him in one of RAP's
articles, too.

https://www.planetanalog.com/tom-fredericksen-memories-on-the-passing-of-another-silicon-valley-original-innovator/

I say Fredericksen because he make much use of the LM324
in his book:

https://www.amazon.com/Intuitive-Amps-Basics-Useful-Applications/dp/9997796675

I have a copy somewhere. I'll check when I'm back in the office.

Confirmed. I finally got my copy back from the person I loaned it to. On the back cover is his bio:
- - - - -
Thomas M. Frederiksen is a linear IC design engineer with National
Semiconductor Corporation, Santa Clara, California. Upon earning his BSEE
degree from California State Polytechnic University at San Luis Obispo, he
started his professional career as a development engineer with the Motorola
Systems Develop ment Laboratory. Subsequently he worked with the
Microelectronics Group at Hughes Semiconductor Division and later became
senior project engineer at Motorola Semiconductor Products Division.
In 1971 Mr. Frederiksen joined his present firm where he developed
custom ICs and standard single-supply building block circuits for automotive
and industrial applications. Today he acts as technical consultant to
National's Linear Design group and enjoys traveling throughout the world as
a leading participant in the company's CMOS and Linear seminars.
Mr. Frederiksen holds more than 40 patents on Iinear ICs and devices,
and is a frequent contributor to professional Iiterature. In 1977 he received
the International Solid State Circuits Conference Best Paper Award. He also
designed the Quad Amps LM3900, LM324, and LM339. The LM324 is today's most
popular Op Amp.
His first book, Intuitive IC Electronics (McGraw-Hill, 1982), has been
followed by Intuitive IC Op Amps and Intuitive IC CMOS Evolution. All are
part of National's Semiconductor Technology Series. Mr. Frederiksen is
currently working on a four book series on the basics of Iinear and digital
electronics which he expects to complete in Iate 1984.
- - - - -

This paper:

Russell, R. W., & Frederiksen, T. M. (1972). Automotive and industrial electronic building blocks. IEEE Journal of Solid-State Circuits, 7(6), 446–454 describes the LM324 design in some detail.

Manuscript received April 14, 1972; revised July 6, 1972

They also acknowledge as follows:

The authors wish to credit J. E. Solomon for providing the new gm reduction technique, E. L. Long for contributing to the design of the IC NPN power transistor with excellent safe operating area, D. Culmer for assisting in circuit development and evaluation, and finally B. Owens and A. Smith for the IC layout design.

Jung mentions both authors in his "Op Amp Applications Handbook".

That paper is well worth a read. The LM339 is also discussed (essentially the same front end as the LM324).. neither by name. They used mutant multi-collector transistors to reduce gm to permit a much smaller compensation cap (5pF rather than 30-50 pF, thus saving ~1000-1800 mil^2 per die. They also discuss the bias block and startup (both of which are hidden in the simplified schematic shown on the datasheet).

By 'this paper' do you mean the short one by Russel and Frederiksen

https://vdocuments.net/ieee-1972-ieee-international-solid-state-circuits-conference-philadelphia-58da3cde61d3b.html

(I was able to download a copy.)

George H.

I also found this along the way.
https://www.ece.ucsb.edu/Faculty/rodwell/Classes/ece2c/resources/an-a.pdf

The ballasted NPN transistor with a good SOA was used in a third part that I don't recall seeing at the time. Essentially the very simple LM339/LM324 front end with a power stage. And it sounds like they coupled **two** front ends to each output stage (so 4 front ends and two output NPN darlingtons capable of a few hundred mA and driving a large-ish incandescent lamp with the large surge. And it would have been in a DIP-14.

Anyone remember a bipolar part like that? It's much simpler than the later LM311 type parts.

https://i.imgur.com/MDOkMTB.png

They at least made one run because they have a die photo.

https://i.imgur.com/QuArRpx.png

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

 

[speff]

On Monday, 24 February 2020 13:21:48 UTC-5, George Herold wrote:

On Monday, February 24, 2020 at 7:55:22 AM UTC-5, speff wrote:
On Sunday, 23 February 2020 21:43:45 UTC-5, speff wrote:
On Sunday, 23 February 2020 17:56:48 UTC-5, Rich S wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 7:42:51 PM UTC-5, Rich S wrote:
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 12:32:14 AM UTC, Rich S wrote:
On Friday, December 6, 2019 at 3:56:15 AM UTC, jla...@.wrote:
On Thu, 5 Dec 2019 18:44:08 -0800 (PST), whit3rd <@.
wrote:

On Thursday, December 5, 2019 at 5:09:46 PM UTC-8, John Larkin wrote:

Yikes. The 324 shows visible crossover distortion at 60 Hz!

'visible' isn't a measure of distortion.
-3 points, units.


If I can see it on an oscilloscope, it's a lot of distortion.

Seriously, you DO know that class B is better for battery power,
but class AB or A for distortion?

I know that there are modern RRIO opamps that are faster, use less
power, and have no crossover distortion.

The LM324 is 45 years old. Did Widlar design the 324?

We met Widlar's girlfriend at the bar at the Washington Square Bar and
Grille, while he was living in Mexico. She was amazed that anyone had
heard of him. She didn't know what he did, but had interesting
stories.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

Tom Fredericksen, I believe. He published an Art of Analog Ic design book
under Nat Semi's catalog. I think Pease mentioned him in one of RAP's
articles, too.

https://www.planetanalog.com/tom-fredericksen-memories-on-the-passing-of-another-silicon-valley-original-innovator/

I say Fredericksen because he make much use of the LM324
in his book:

https://www.amazon.com/Intuitive-Amps-Basics-Useful-Applications/dp/9997796675

I have a copy somewhere. I'll check when I'm back in the office.

Confirmed. I finally got my copy back from the person I loaned it to. On the back cover is his bio:
- - - - -
Thomas M. Frederiksen is a linear IC design engineer with National
Semiconductor Corporation, Santa Clara, California. Upon earning his BSEE
degree from California State Polytechnic University at San Luis Obispo, he
started his professional career as a development engineer with the Motorola
Systems Develop ment Laboratory. Subsequently he worked with the
Microelectronics Group at Hughes Semiconductor Division and later became
senior project engineer at Motorola Semiconductor Products Division..
In 1971 Mr. Frederiksen joined his present firm where he developed
custom ICs and standard single-supply building block circuits for automotive
and industrial applications. Today he acts as technical consultant to
National's Linear Design group and enjoys traveling throughout the world as
a leading participant in the company's CMOS and Linear seminars.
Mr. Frederiksen holds more than 40 patents on Iinear ICs and devices,
and is a frequent contributor to professional Iiterature. In 1977 he received
the International Solid State Circuits Conference Best Paper Award. He also
designed the Quad Amps LM3900, LM324, and LM339. The LM324 is today's most
popular Op Amp.
His first book, Intuitive IC Electronics (McGraw-Hill, 1982), has been
followed by Intuitive IC Op Amps and Intuitive IC CMOS Evolution. All are
part of National's Semiconductor Technology Series. Mr. Frederiksen is
currently working on a four book series on the basics of Iinear and digital
electronics which he expects to complete in Iate 1984.
- - - - -

This paper:

Russell, R. W., & Frederiksen, T. M. (1972). Automotive and industrial electronic building blocks. IEEE Journal of Solid-State Circuits, 7(6), 446–454 describes the LM324 design in some detail.

Manuscript received April 14, 1972; revised July 6, 1972

They also acknowledge as follows:

The authors wish to credit J. E. Solomon for providing the new gm reduction technique, E. L. Long for contributing to the design of the IC NPN power transistor with excellent safe operating area, D. Culmer for assisting in circuit development and evaluation, and finally B. Owens and A. Smith for the IC layout design.

Jung mentions both authors in his "Op Amp Applications Handbook".

That paper is well worth a read. The LM339 is also discussed (essentially the same front end as the LM324).. neither by name. They used mutant multi-collector transistors to reduce gm to permit a much smaller compensation cap (5pF rather than 30-50 pF, thus saving ~1000-1800 mil^2 per die. They also discuss the bias block and startup (both of which are hidden in the simplified schematic shown on the datasheet).

By 'this paper' do you mean the short one by Russel and Frederiksen

https://vdocuments.net/ieee-1972-ieee-international-solid-state-circuits-conference-philadelphia-58da3cde61d3b.html

(I was able to download a copy.)

The one I have is 9 pages long.

George H.

I also found this along the way.
https://www.ece.ucsb.edu/Faculty/rodwell/Classes/ece2c/resources/an-a.pdf

Interesting, will read later.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany