Driver to drive?

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 14 Feb 2019 23:23:04 -0800 (PST), bill.sloman@ieee.org wrote:

On Friday, February 15, 2019 at 4:59:29 AM UTC+11, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 13 Feb 2019 22:31:46 -0800, Mike <ham789@netscape.net> wrote:
Once presented with a load, further shelf life can decrease dramatically.

Agreed. A battery that is never used will theoretically last forever.

Not according to any theory I'm aware of. There's inevitably some way
for stuff to diffuse around and decrease the stock of stored energy.

If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it
make a sound?
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_a_tree_falls_in_a_forest>
The unused battery is much the same. If nobody uses or test the
battery, how does one know if it's charged or dead?

Some lithium cells are touted as having a twenty year shelf life (if stored
below 20C), and the lithium coin cell that powers my watch does roughly
seven year under load.

Lithium thionyl chloride (LiSOCl2). They're up to 40 years now:
<http://www.tadiranbat.com>
<http://www.tadiranbat.com/is-a-40-year-battery-life-a-reality.html>
The major technology improvements come various ways to reduce self
discharge. If progress continues at the present rate of improvement,
we may eventually have a battery that will last longer than an average
human lifetime.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

krw@notreal.com wrote in
news:df3f6e5b57mndneg3dligto0pu2njpsmkc@4ax.com:

On Fri, 15 Feb 2019 09:22:49 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:

On Fri, 15 Feb 2019 09:15:56 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
Sorry. I missed the real datasheet on my initial search. This
should be it for L92 AAA
http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/l92.pdf
and L91 AA.
http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/l91.pdf
They both say:
Shelf Life: 20 years at 21°C
but don't bother to specify the conditions when the battery is
considered no longer suitable for sale or use. My guess(tm) is
80% of full charge, but I haven't found that stated in any of the
Energizer literature.

Incidentally, the shelf life for an Energizer L91 AA *alkaline*
cell is claimed at 10 years @21C:
http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/e91.pdf
None of the alkaline cells I've bought have lasted that long and
usually leak in the box or in the instrument long before 10 years
has passed.

IME, they don't leak unless they're used. I've never seen one
leak in its packaging.

It is a galvanic thing.
They do age in perfectly appearing normal condition. Those simply
avalanche to an uncharged state quicker is all.

Rechargeables can be recharged with a hand crank charger. Far
better for a survival set up.

 

krw@notreal.com wrote in
news43f6ehui7mgai4esll3cb58r2cuudpii4@4ax.com:

On Fri, 15 Feb 2019 09:06:20 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:

On Thu, 14 Feb 2019 22:07:49 -0500, krw@notreal.com wrote:

That's my experience, as well. Whenever I use one of my
"emergency" flashlights, I pitch the batteries and put in fresh
ones.

Polluter.

...and proud of it!

What do you do when someone else uses one of your
"emergency" flashlights, and doesn't tell you that they used it?

There are only two of us in the house. No one else drives our
vehicles. We have other "day to day" flashlights. That's not a
real problem.

I do it so the batteries don't leak, not so much that it's fully
charged when I need it.

Do
you just assume that it will work when needed? With mission
critical hardware, such as UPS (uninterruptible power supply)
batteries, the batteries are replaced by a regular schedule,
regardless of whether they were used or not. That's how I
sometimes get big UPS batteries with about 50% of the life left in
the batteries for free. Sometimes, it includes the UPS.

UPS batteries are rechargeable. Totally different animal.

If you persist in using non-rechargeable
batteries, what you should be doing is buying a new "emergency"
flashlight every 6 months or so, and donating the old flashlight
to suitable charity. That should save you the trouble of
recharging batteries on a regular schedule, monitoring capacity,
or measuring the SoC (state of charge).

Utter nonsense.

Best fucking flashlights...

WalMart's brand.

USB rechargeable... can't beat it. lasts hours. Single LED.
O-ring Sealed charging port. Blindingly bright.


Make great bicycle headlights. Especially good for night Mtn
Biking.


<>

<https://www.walmart.com/ip/Ozark-Trail-750-Lumen-Rechargeable-
Camping-Flashlight/484980485>

 

On Fri, 15 Feb 2019 09:22:49 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

On Fri, 15 Feb 2019 09:15:56 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com
wrote:
Sorry. I missed the real datasheet on my initial search. This should
be it for L92 AAA
http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/l92.pdf
and L91 AA.
http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/l91.pdf
They both say:
Shelf Life: 20 years at 21°C
but don't bother to specify the conditions when the battery is
considered no longer suitable for sale or use. My guess(tm) is 80% of
full charge, but I haven't found that stated in any of the Energizer
literature.

Incidentally, the shelf life for an Energizer L91 AA *alkaline* cell
is claimed at 10 years @21C:
http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/e91.pdf
None of the alkaline cells I've bought have lasted that long and
usually leak in the box or in the instrument long before 10 years has
passed.

IME, they don't leak unless they're used. I've never seen one leak in
its packaging.

 

On Fri, 15 Feb 2019 09:15:56 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

On Thu, 14 Feb 2019 22:06:45 -0500, krw@notreal.com wrote:

On Wed, 13 Feb 2019 20:48:45 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com
wrote:

On Tue, 12 Feb 2019 22:46:50 -0500, krw@notreal.com wrote:

Self discharge for the Energizer LiFeS2 batteries is 20 years. Top
that with *any* Ni chemistry.

Where did you find that number? I've been Googling for 15 minutes and
not been able to find any self discharge specs or tests. This is as
close as I could find, and it too doesn't specify down to what charge
level the cell was tested (usually 80% of full charge):

The Energizer L92 datasheet, IIRC. I don't have it at home, though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_battery#Chemistries
The section on LiFeS2 says:
"Lithium-iron", "Li/Fe". Called "voltage-compatible" lithium,
because it can work as a replacement for alkaline batteries
with its 1.5 V nominal voltage. As such, Energizer lithium
cells of AA and AAA size employ this chemistry. 2.5 times
higher lifetime for high current discharge regime than
alkaline batteries, better storage life due to lower
self-discharge, 10-20 years storage time. FeS2 is cheap.
Cathode often designed as a paste of iron sulfide powder
mixed with powdered graphite. Variant is Li-CuFeS2.

L91 and L92 Data Sheet:
http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/lithiuml91l92_appman.pdf

That's not a datasheet. It's a product blurb, maybe.

Sorry. I missed the real datasheet on my initial search. This should
be it for L92 AAA
http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/l92.pdf
and L91 AA.
http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/l91.pdf
They both say:
Shelf Life: 20 years at 21°C
but don't bother to specify the conditions when the battery is
considered no longer suitable for sale or use. My guess(tm) is 80% of
full charge, but I haven't found that stated in any of the Energizer
literature.

You asked where I got my "20 year shelf-life" number. Now you have
it.

 

On Fri, 15 Feb 2019 09:06:20 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

On Thu, 14 Feb 2019 22:07:49 -0500, krw@notreal.com wrote:

That's my experience, as well. Whenever I use one of my "emergency"
flashlights, I pitch the batteries and put in fresh ones.

Polluter.

....and proud of it!

What do you do when someone else uses one of your
"emergency" flashlights, and doesn't tell you that they used it?

There are only two of us in the house. No one else drives our
vehicles. We have other "day to day" flashlights. That's not a real
problem.

I do it so the batteries don't leak, not so much that it's fully
charged when I need it.

Do
you just assume that it will work when needed? With mission critical
hardware, such as UPS (uninterruptible power supply) batteries, the
batteries are replaced by a regular schedule, regardless of whether
they were used or not. That's how I sometimes get big UPS batteries
with about 50% of the life left in the batteries for free. Sometimes,
it includes the UPS.

UPS batteries are rechargeable. Totally different animal.

If you persist in using non-rechargeable
batteries, what you should be doing is buying a new "emergency"
flashlight every 6 months or so, and donating the old flashlight to
suitable charity. That should save you the trouble of recharging
batteries on a regular schedule, monitoring capacity, or measuring the
SoC (state of charge).

Utter nonsense.

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 15 Feb 2019 23:14:10 -0500, krw@notreal.com wrote:

IME, they don't leak unless they're used. I've never seen one leak in
its packaging.

I beg to differ:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/Kirkland-AAA-leak.jpg>
The right bubble pack was NOT opened which means the cells were not
used prior to them deciding to self destruct. The left was opened.
Assuming you trust me, the left cells had not been used. I've had
Costco Duracell AA cells do much the same thing in the original bubble
packaging.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 15 Feb 2019 23:13:17 -0500, krw@notreal.com wrote:

On Fri, 15 Feb 2019 09:15:56 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com
wrote:

On Thu, 14 Feb 2019 22:06:45 -0500, krw@notreal.com wrote:

On Wed, 13 Feb 2019 20:48:45 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com
wrote:

On Tue, 12 Feb 2019 22:46:50 -0500, krw@notreal.com wrote:

Self discharge for the Energizer LiFeS2 batteries is 20 years. Top
that with *any* Ni chemistry.

Where did you find that number? I've been Googling for 15 minutes and
not been able to find any self discharge specs or tests. This is as
close as I could find, and it too doesn't specify down to what charge
level the cell was tested (usually 80% of full charge):

The Energizer L92 datasheet, IIRC. I don't have it at home, though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_battery#Chemistries
The section on LiFeS2 says:
"Lithium-iron", "Li/Fe". Called "voltage-compatible" lithium,
because it can work as a replacement for alkaline batteries
with its 1.5 V nominal voltage. As such, Energizer lithium
cells of AA and AAA size employ this chemistry. 2.5 times
higher lifetime for high current discharge regime than
alkaline batteries, better storage life due to lower
self-discharge, 10-20 years storage time. FeS2 is cheap.
Cathode often designed as a paste of iron sulfide powder
mixed with powdered graphite. Variant is Li-CuFeS2.

L91 and L92 Data Sheet:
http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/lithiuml91l92_appman.pdf

That's not a datasheet. It's a product blurb, maybe.

Sorry. I missed the real datasheet on my initial search. This should
be it for L92 AAA
http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/l92.pdf
and L91 AA.
http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/l91.pdf
They both say:
Shelf Life: 20 years at 21°C
but don't bother to specify the conditions when the battery is
considered no longer suitable for sale or use. My guess(tm) is 80% of
full charge, but I haven't found that stated in any of the Energizer
literature.

You asked where I got my "20 year shelf-life" number. Now you have
it.

Ok. However, I find it rather odd that I should supply the source of
YOUR information. In the future, it would be helpful if you would
provide your own sources and corroborating information.

I still haven't found anything to indicate the condition of a cell
that has spent 20 years on the shelf in a box. More simply, if I sold
you a 20 year old cell, what condition would YOU expect it to be? Is
80% good enough? Or is some other number considered acceptable?
Personally, I like my primary cells as close to 100% as possible, and
would not consider buying a 20 year old cell unless the manufacturer
also offers a 20 year warranty.

I was at Safeway market today and looked at the Energizer L91 AA cells
in stock. Expiration date EX 12/2037. Assuming it was made in 2017,
that's 20 years. I asked the manager if they planned to keep them on
the shelf until 2037. Nope. They return them to their supplier after
5 years when they are considered unsellable.

Thanks for the suggestion but I'll stick with rechargeable cells. They
can be topped off. They can be tested for capacity. They can be
non-destructively characterized with a discharge tester. I can't do
any of these with a non-rechargeable cell such as LiFeS2.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote in
news:veaf6e568qfjvh6cj4mv1b3vh6a2dr3bd5@4ax.com:

On Fri, 15 Feb 2019 23:14:10 -0500, krw@notreal.com wrote:

IME, they don't leak unless they're used. I've never seen one
leak in its packaging.

I beg to differ:
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/Kirkland-AAA-leak.jpg
The right bubble pack was NOT opened which means the cells were
not used prior to them deciding to self destruct. The left was
opened. Assuming you trust me, the left cells had not been used.
I've had Costco Duracell AA cells do much the same thing in the
original bubble packaging.

Where (and how) are you storing them?

 

On Fri, 15 Feb 2019 22:35:09 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

On Fri, 15 Feb 2019 23:13:17 -0500, krw@notreal.com wrote:

On Fri, 15 Feb 2019 09:15:56 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com
wrote:

On Thu, 14 Feb 2019 22:06:45 -0500, krw@notreal.com wrote:

On Wed, 13 Feb 2019 20:48:45 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com
wrote:

On Tue, 12 Feb 2019 22:46:50 -0500, krw@notreal.com wrote:

Self discharge for the Energizer LiFeS2 batteries is 20 years. Top
that with *any* Ni chemistry.

Where did you find that number? I've been Googling for 15 minutes and
not been able to find any self discharge specs or tests. This is as
close as I could find, and it too doesn't specify down to what charge
level the cell was tested (usually 80% of full charge):

The Energizer L92 datasheet, IIRC. I don't have it at home, though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_battery#Chemistries
The section on LiFeS2 says:
"Lithium-iron", "Li/Fe". Called "voltage-compatible" lithium,
because it can work as a replacement for alkaline batteries
with its 1.5 V nominal voltage. As such, Energizer lithium
cells of AA and AAA size employ this chemistry. 2.5 times
higher lifetime for high current discharge regime than
alkaline batteries, better storage life due to lower
self-discharge, 10-20 years storage time. FeS2 is cheap.
Cathode often designed as a paste of iron sulfide powder
mixed with powdered graphite. Variant is Li-CuFeS2.

L91 and L92 Data Sheet:
http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/lithiuml91l92_appman.pdf

That's not a datasheet. It's a product blurb, maybe.

Sorry. I missed the real datasheet on my initial search. This should
be it for L92 AAA
http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/l92.pdf
and L91 AA.
http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/l91.pdf
They both say:
Shelf Life: 20 years at 21°C
but don't bother to specify the conditions when the battery is
considered no longer suitable for sale or use. My guess(tm) is 80% of
full charge, but I haven't found that stated in any of the Energizer
literature.

You asked where I got my "20 year shelf-life" number. Now you have
it.

Ok. However, I find it rather odd that I should supply the source of
YOUR information. In the future, it would be helpful if you would
provide your own sources and corroborating information.

Moron, I told you it was on the datasheet, that I didn't have at home.
You found the datasheet before I remembered to grab it. Sheesh!

...and still didn't accept that I wasn't pulling the number out of my
ass. Double-sheesh!

I still haven't found anything to indicate the condition of a cell
that has spent 20 years on the shelf in a box. More simply, if I sold
you a 20 year old cell, what condition would YOU expect it to be? Is
80% good enough? Or is some other number considered acceptable?
Personally, I like my primary cells as close to 100% as possible, and
would not consider buying a 20 year old cell unless the manufacturer
also offers a 20 year warranty.

If you're a real customer, ask!

I was at Safeway market today and looked at the Energizer L91 AA cells
in stock. Expiration date EX 12/2037. Assuming it was made in 2017,
that's 20 years. I asked the manager if they planned to keep them on
the shelf until 2037. Nope. They return them to their supplier after
5 years when they are considered unsellable.

Thanks for the suggestion but I'll stick with rechargeable cells. They
can be topped off. They can be tested for capacity. They can be
non-destructively characterized with a discharge tester. I can't do
any of these with a non-rechargeable cell such as LiFeS2.

Foolish. Rechargeables will never last 20 years.

The reason I was set upon this particular battery search was because
the NiMHs in the current design (about to go into large-scale
production - 100K units, 400K batteries/year) are failing in
validation testing after "four years". The specification calls for
five. The L91s appear to be a reasonable solution. Unfortunately,
they're stuck with AAAs, since they're about to go into production
(they will have to go with what they have in the first year, in any
case). If they could change the case, there are better chemistries
for the temperature range they'll be seeing. LiFePO4 would be a good
rechargeable alternative but the size is a problem.

 

On Fri, 15 Feb 2019 22:17:21 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

On Fri, 15 Feb 2019 23:14:10 -0500, krw@notreal.com wrote:

IME, they don't leak unless they're used. I've never seen one leak in
its packaging.

I beg to differ:
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/Kirkland-AAA-leak.jpg

I don't mean crap with some third-rate retailer's name on it. I mean,
specifically, Energizers.

The right bubble pack was NOT opened which means the cells were not
used prior to them deciding to self destruct. The left was opened.
Assuming you trust me, the left cells had not been used. I've had
Costco Duracell AA cells do much the same thing in the original bubble
packaging.

 

On Sat, 16 Feb 2019 04:33:11 +0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

krw@notreal.com wrote in
news43f6ehui7mgai4esll3cb58r2cuudpii4@4ax.com:

On Fri, 15 Feb 2019 09:06:20 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:

On Thu, 14 Feb 2019 22:07:49 -0500, krw@notreal.com wrote:

That's my experience, as well. Whenever I use one of my
"emergency" flashlights, I pitch the batteries and put in fresh
ones.

Polluter.

...and proud of it!

What do you do when someone else uses one of your
"emergency" flashlights, and doesn't tell you that they used it?

There are only two of us in the house. No one else drives our
vehicles. We have other "day to day" flashlights. That's not a
real problem.

I do it so the batteries don't leak, not so much that it's fully
charged when I need it.

Do
you just assume that it will work when needed? With mission
critical hardware, such as UPS (uninterruptible power supply)
batteries, the batteries are replaced by a regular schedule,
regardless of whether they were used or not. That's how I
sometimes get big UPS batteries with about 50% of the life left in
the batteries for free. Sometimes, it includes the UPS.

UPS batteries are rechargeable. Totally different animal.

If you persist in using non-rechargeable
batteries, what you should be doing is buying a new "emergency"
flashlight every 6 months or so, and donating the old flashlight
to suitable charity. That should save you the trouble of
recharging batteries on a regular schedule, monitoring capacity,
or measuring the SoC (state of charge).

Utter nonsense.


Best fucking flashlights...

WalMart's brand.

USB rechargeable... can't beat it. lasts hours. Single LED.
O-ring Sealed charging port. Blindingly bright.

How do you always do it, AlwaysWrong?

Make great bicycle headlights. Especially good for night Mtn
Biking.

 

krw@notreal.com wrote in
news:h8bg6e55ns36cpb2rnbujcr6c90fvtp6tj@4ax.com:

I don't mean crap with some third-rate retailer's name on it. I
mean, specifically, Energizers.

There are only about three major alkaline battery makers over there
and ALL of the brands come from them.

 

On Sat, 16 Feb 2019 17:18:32 +0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

krw@notreal.com wrote in
news:h8bg6e55ns36cpb2rnbujcr6c90fvtp6tj@4ax.com:

I don't mean crap with some third-rate retailer's name on it. I
mean, specifically, Energizers.


There are only about three major alkaline battery makers over there
and ALL of the brands come from them.

AlwaysWrong is, surprise, surprise, wrong again. It doesn't matter
how many manufacturers there are, AlwaysWrong. Not all batteries are
equal.

Do you know anything about anything? Seriously!

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 16 Feb 2019 09:25:31 +0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote in
news:veaf6e568qfjvh6cj4mv1b3vh6a2dr3bd5@4ax.com:

On Fri, 15 Feb 2019 23:14:10 -0500, krw@notreal.com wrote:

IME, they don't leak unless they're used. I've never seen one
leak in its packaging.

I beg to differ:
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/Kirkland-AAA-leak.jpg
The right bubble pack was NOT opened which means the cells were
not used prior to them deciding to self destruct. The left was
opened. Assuming you trust me, the left cells had not been used.
I've had Costco Duracell AA cells do much the same thing in the
original bubble packaging.

Where (and how) are you storing them?

When I bought the house in 1973, it came with a rather large,
inefficient, temperamental, and ugly Frigidaire 170 refrigerator.
Unfortunately, parts of the kitchen were built around the fridge,
which would require disassembly with a cutting torch or defenestration
through a window, to remove and drag to the recyclers. I chose to
leave it in place, unplugged, and use it for storing chemicals, solder
paste, fireworks, batteries, bottled emergency water, and such. I
monitored the inside temperature for a while and found that the
thermal mass and insulation kept the temperature within about +/-5F of
65F (18C).

The Kirkland AA cells were purchased either in 2007 or 2008 at Costco.
The stated shelf life on the package is 7 years. The EXIF info from
the photo shows that it was taken on:
DateTime - 2016:10:04 09:52:49
which is 2 years after the termination of the shelf life period in
2014.

[Q] If the shelf life ended in 2014, and might possibly have 80% of
its original capacity at expiration, would you expect the cells to
self destruct 2 years later without being used? Perhaps the shelf
life is based on the time between manufacture and self-destruction,
plus a 2 year safety margin.

Reminder, the cells on the right in the photo did not have the
packaging removed, and were not "used" in any manner. They leaked
died in the original bubble pack.




--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[John S]

On 2/15/2019 10:14 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:

On Fri, 15 Feb 2019 09:22:49 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com
wrote:

On Fri, 15 Feb 2019 09:15:56 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com
wrote:
Sorry. I missed the real datasheet on my initial search. This should
be it for L92 AAA
http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/l92.pdf
and L91 AA.
http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/l91.pdf
They both say:
Shelf Life: 20 years at 21°C
but don't bother to specify the conditions when the battery is
considered no longer suitable for sale or use. My guess(tm) is 80% of
full charge, but I haven't found that stated in any of the Energizer
literature.

Incidentally, the shelf life for an Energizer L91 AA *alkaline* cell
is claimed at 10 years @21C:
http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/e91.pdf
None of the alkaline cells I've bought have lasted that long and
usually leak in the box or in the instrument long before 10 years has
passed.

IME, they don't leak unless they're used. I've never seen one leak in
its packaging.

I have. More than once and after less than 3 years.

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 16 Feb 2019 10:42:45 -0500, krw@notreal.com wrote:

>Foolish. Rechargeables will never last 20 years.

Ok. We'll switch from 9V batteries, to flashlights, and now to your
unspecified product. No problem. Probably your product will also not
last 20 years.

The reason I was set upon this particular battery search was because
the NiMHs in the current design (about to go into large-scale
production - 100K units, 400K batteries/year) are failing in
validation testing after "four years".

Failing how? Accelerated life testing of the unit showing premature
battery failures? Extrapolated battery life based on short term
testing?

The specification calls for
five. The L91s appear to be a reasonable solution. Unfortunately,
they're stuck with AAAs, since they're about to go into production
(they will have to go with what they have in the first year, in any
case). If they could change the case, there are better chemistries
for the temperature range they'll be seeing. LiFePO4 would be a good
rechargeable alternative but the size is a problem.

There should be someone making LiFePO4 cells in AAA (10440) packages.
<http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?414196-Looking-for-a-good-LiFePO4-AAA-battery-Any-suggestions>
<https://www.amazon.com/10450-260Mah-Lifepo4-Battery-Empty/dp/B071F9SF2Z>
<https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=lifepo4+AAA+10440>
<https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/lifepo4-battery-aaa.html>
More:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=lifepo4+AAA+10440&oq=lifepo4+AAA+10440>
Looks like plenty to choose from. No recommendations as I haven't
used any of these in AAA.

Is there room in the battery compartment for a small LiPo battery pack
with the same number of cells as the current AAA battery? If it can
be made to fit, it might be a usable solution.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

On Sun, 17 Feb 2019 11:18:05 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

On Sat, 16 Feb 2019 10:42:45 -0500, krw@notreal.com wrote:

Foolish. Rechargeables will never last 20 years.

Ok. We'll switch from 9V batteries, to flashlights, and now to your
unspecified product. No problem. Probably your product will also not
last 20 years.

No, but it had better last five. Hundreds of thousands of them, in
harsh conditions. NiMH has failed testing. Even with "constant"
recharge, it fails the five-year test.

The reason I was set upon this particular battery search was because
the NiMHs in the current design (about to go into large-scale
production - 100K units, 400K batteries/year) are failing in
validation testing after "four years".

Failing how? Accelerated life testing of the unit showing premature
battery failures? Extrapolated battery life based on short term
testing?

Certainly. It doesn't do any good to have a test that runs longer
than the contract, now does it?

The specification calls for
five. The L91s appear to be a reasonable solution. Unfortunately,
they're stuck with AAAs, since they're about to go into production
(they will have to go with what they have in the first year, in any
case). If they could change the case, there are better chemistries
for the temperature range they'll be seeing. LiFePO4 would be a good
rechargeable alternative but the size is a problem.

There should be someone making LiFePO4 cells in AAA (10440) packages.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?414196-Looking-for-a-good-LiFePO4-AAA-battery-Any-suggestions
https://www.amazon.com/10450-260Mah-Lifepo4-Battery-Empty/dp/B071F9SF2Z

I can't find any manufacturers who will admit to it. Who knows what
they really are.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=lifepo4+AAA+10440
https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/lifepo4-battery-aaa.html
More:
https://www.google.com/search?q=lifepo4+AAA+10440&oq=lifepo4+AAA+10440
Looks like plenty to choose from. No recommendations as I haven't
used any of these in AAA.

Is there room in the battery compartment for a small LiPo battery pack
with the same number of cells as the current AAA battery? If it can
be made to fit, it might be a usable solution.

No. Any mechanical change would be a massive problem, though if the
LiFeS2 cells aren't acceptable, it'll have to be done. It'll add a
year to the schedule (and it goes into full production in May).

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 17 Feb 2019 20:44:43 -0500, krw@notreal.com wrote:

There should be someone making LiFePO4 cells in AAA (10440) packages.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?414196-Looking-for-a-good-LiFePO4-AAA-battery-Any-suggestions
https://www.amazon.com/10450-260Mah-Lifepo4-Battery-Empty/dp/B071F9SF2Z
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=lifepo4+AAA+10440
https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/lifepo4-battery-aaa.html
More:
https://www.google.com/search?q=lifepo4+AAA+10440&oq=lifepo4+AAA+10440

I can't find any manufacturers who will admit to it.

I provide you 4 references to suppliers plus a Google search for
LiFePO4 AAA cells and you can't find a manufacturer? What are your
limitations? Do the batteries need to be made in USA? Local stocking
distributor? Pricing? Need built in protection?
I did some quick Googling and couldn't find LiFePO4 10440 AAA from
American vendors, so you're stuck with imports.

>Who knows what they really are.

If you don't know what they really are, it is easy enough to measure
the terminal voltage. LiFePO4 has a lower terminal voltage than other
LiIon chemistries. Maximum charged is 3.6VDC. Don't go below 2.8VDC.
<https://www.powerstream.com/LLLF.htm>
Here's a little on how to identify variations on the LiFePO4
chemistries for 26650 cells from different manufactories:
<https://www.powerstream.com/lithium-phosphate-charge-voltage.htm>

Good luck and happy hunting.
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

On Saturday, 16 February 2019 06:35:15 UTC, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Fri, 15 Feb 2019 23:13:17 -0500, krw@notreal.com wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2019 09:15:56 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com
wrote:
On Thu, 14 Feb 2019 22:06:45 -0500, krw@notreal.com wrote:
On Wed, 13 Feb 2019 20:48:45 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com
wrote:
On Tue, 12 Feb 2019 22:46:50 -0500, krw@notreal.com wrote:

Sorry. I missed the real datasheet on my initial search. This should
be it for L92 AAA
http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/l92.pdf
and L91 AA.
http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/l91.pdf
They both say:
Shelf Life: 20 years at 21°C
but don't bother to specify the conditions when the battery is
considered no longer suitable for sale or use. My guess(tm) is 80% of
full charge, but I haven't found that stated in any of the Energizer
literature.

You asked where I got my "20 year shelf-life" number. Now you have
it.

Ok. However, I find it rather odd that I should supply the source of
YOUR information. In the future, it would be helpful if you would
provide your own sources and corroborating information.

I still haven't found anything to indicate the condition of a cell
that has spent 20 years on the shelf in a box. More simply, if I sold
you a 20 year old cell, what condition would YOU expect it to be? Is
80% good enough? Or is some other number considered acceptable?
Personally, I like my primary cells as close to 100% as possible, and
would not consider buying a 20 year old cell unless the manufacturer
also offers a 20 year warranty.

IME about 3/4 of 1.5v cells are completely dead by then, but some are fine, where fine means terminal voltage is still high & works ok in appliances. Whether that really means they still have most capacity I don't know.

Re unopened 20 year old 9v batteries, I expect some will be good, but probably nearly all dead, as each has to have 6 good cells to work.


NT