don\\\'t read this unless you empathize with ...(arg)...

[server]

message unavailable

 

[Phil Hobbs]

The server at nntp.olduse.net is serving up selected parts of Usenet
with a 30-year delay. This one from sci.electronics may have some
points of contact for our recent discussions about analogue engineering.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

On 11/2/90 12:05 PM, Scott T. Dupuie wrote:

In article <11242.2730bfd5@ecs.umass.edu> tohline@ecs.umass.edu
(Chris Tohline) writes:

as a college sophmore I felt very confident about my major, computer
systems engineering. Then, I took a BASIC circuit analysis class.
now, I am very frusterated. Am I lost because my teacher is poor, or
is this just a difficult subject to grasp? I refuse to live with a \'C\'
and am very frusterated. But I\'m sure someday it will click and I\'ll
be happy again.

Chris Tohline

tohline@ecs.umass.edu

Chris,

This has been one of my \"pet peeves\" since I began my education in EE
8 years ago. I am currently completing a M.S. degree in this field, and
have spent some time teaching and working in industry as well. As much as
the academics may object, I can tell you with some certainty that your
introductory circuit analysis course has very little to do with *real*
analog engineering. It seems that most universities like to use this course
as a vehicle for \"weeding out\" what they consider to be unsuitable
students. In addition to this, many of the faculty stuck teaching this
course know very little about the subject as it pertains to real life
design issues. They act as though they are being punished by being forced
to teach this class. This is unfortunate, since it tends to turn off many
young engineering students to the field of analog circuit design. I can\'t
tell you how many students I\'ve known through the years that switched to
digital design (no pun intended) because of the experience thay had in a
similar circuits course. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why there are
so few analog design engineers out there and why they are in such high
demand. I can\'t tell you what to do about your particular situation, but if
you stick it out, as I did, the rewards are many.

Scott T. Dupuie
The Ohio State University
Department of Electrical Engineering
dupuie@parts.eng.ohio-state.edu

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[bitrex]

On 11/4/2020 11:55 PM, Phil Hobbs wrote:

The server at nntp.olduse.net is serving up selected parts of Usenet
with a 30-year delay.  This one from sci.electronics may have some
points of contact for our recent discussions about analogue engineering.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

On 11/2/90 12:05 PM, Scott T. Dupuie wrote:
In article <11242.2730bfd5@ecs.umass.edu> tohline@ecs.umass.edu
(Chris Tohline) writes:

as a college sophmore I felt very confident about my major, computer
systems engineering.  Then, I took a BASIC circuit analysis class.
now, I am very frusterated.  Am I lost because my teacher is poor, or
is this just a difficult subject to grasp?  I refuse to live with a \'C\'
and am very frusterated.  But I\'m sure someday it will click and I\'ll
be happy again.

Chris Tohline

tohline@ecs.umass.edu

Chris,

This has been one of my \"pet peeves\" since I began my education in EE
8 years ago. I am currently completing a M.S. degree in this field, and
have spent some time teaching and working in industry as well. As much as
the academics may object, I can tell you with some certainty that your
introductory circuit analysis course has very little to do with *real*
analog engineering. It seems that most universities like to use this
course
as a vehicle for \"weeding out\" what they consider to be unsuitable
students. In addition to this, many of the faculty stuck teaching this
course know very little about the subject as it pertains to real life
design issues. They act as though they are being punished by being forced
to teach this class. This is unfortunate, since it tends to turn off many
young engineering students to the field of analog circuit design. I can\'t
tell you how many students I\'ve known through the years that switched to
digital design (no pun intended) because of the experience thay had in a
similar circuits course. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why there are
so few analog design engineers out there and why they are in such high
demand. I can\'t tell you what to do about your particular situation,
but if
you stick it out, as I did, the rewards are many.

Scott T. Dupuie
The Ohio State University
Department of Electrical Engineering
dupuie@parts.eng.ohio-state.edu

Wow, looks like they gave undergrads departmental email address
(ecs.umass.edu) back then. High class!

In the US it\'s my impression you basically got to go to a top tier STEM
school to get people who are both professional STEM-people and
professional teachers. The few CS courses I took at the time were mostly
taught by academics of the publish-or-perish variety, you could tell
these guys kind of resented teaching and only had eyes for the gifted,
if you were a newb they had little patience with you.

In the modern era one can check out lectures from MIT and Stanford
online and see what one was missing.

UMass Amherst used to be a backwater \"fallback school\" but it\'s become
more competitive and is currently like #30 in top public universities
for engineering in the US.

 

[bitrex]

On 11/5/2020 12:16 AM, bitrex wrote:

On 11/4/2020 11:55 PM, Phil Hobbs wrote:
The server at nntp.olduse.net is serving up selected parts of Usenet
with a 30-year delay.  This one from sci.electronics may have some
points of contact for our recent discussions about analogue
engineering.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

On 11/2/90 12:05 PM, Scott T. Dupuie wrote:
In article <11242.2730bfd5@ecs.umass.edu> tohline@ecs.umass.edu
(Chris Tohline) writes:

as a college sophmore I felt very confident about my major, computer
systems engineering.  Then, I took a BASIC circuit analysis class.
now, I am very frusterated.  Am I lost because my teacher is poor, or
is this just a difficult subject to grasp?  I refuse to live with a \'C\'
and am very frusterated.  But I\'m sure someday it will click and I\'ll
be happy again.

Chris Tohline

tohline@ecs.umass.edu

Chris,

This has been one of my \"pet peeves\" since I began my education in EE
8 years ago. I am currently completing a M.S. degree in this field, and
have spent some time teaching and working in industry as well. As
much as
the academics may object, I can tell you with some certainty that your
introductory circuit analysis course has very little to do with *real*
analog engineering. It seems that most universities like to use this
course
as a vehicle for \"weeding out\" what they consider to be unsuitable
students. In addition to this, many of the faculty stuck teaching this
course know very little about the subject as it pertains to real life
design issues. They act as though they are being punished by being
forced
to teach this class. This is unfortunate, since it tends to turn off
many
young engineering students to the field of analog circuit design. I
can\'t
tell you how many students I\'ve known through the years that switched to
digital design (no pun intended) because of the experience thay had in a
similar circuits course. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why there
are
so few analog design engineers out there and why they are in such high
demand. I can\'t tell you what to do about your particular situation,
but if
you stick it out, as I did, the rewards are many.

Scott T. Dupuie
The Ohio State University
Department of Electrical Engineering
dupuie@parts.eng.ohio-state.edu




Wow, looks like they gave undergrads departmental email address
(ecs.umass.edu) back then. High class!

In the US it\'s my impression you basically got to go to a top tier STEM
school to get people who are both professional STEM-people and
professional teachers. The few CS courses I took at the time were mostly
taught by academics of the publish-or-perish variety, you could tell
these guys

Overwhelmingly guys, to the department\'s detriment IMO

 

[Michael Terrell]

On Wednesday, November 4, 2020 at 11:55:27 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:

The server at nntp.olduse.net is serving up selected parts of Usenet
with a 30-year delay. This one from sci.electronics may have some
points of contact for our recent discussions about analogue engineering.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

On 11/2/90 12:05 PM, Scott T. Dupuie wrote:
In article <11242.2...@ecs.umass.edu> toh...@ecs.umass.edu
(Chris Tohline) writes:

as a college sophmore I felt very confident about my major, computer
systems engineering. Then, I took a BASIC circuit analysis class.
now, I am very frusterated. Am I lost because my teacher is poor, or
is this just a difficult subject to grasp? I refuse to live with a \'C\'
and am very frusterated. But I\'m sure someday it will click and I\'ll
be happy again.

Chris Tohline

toh...@ecs.umass.edu

Chris,

This has been one of my \"pet peeves\" since I began my education in EE
8 years ago. I am currently completing a M.S. degree in this field, and
have spent some time teaching and working in industry as well. As much as
the academics may object, I can tell you with some certainty that your
introductory circuit analysis course has very little to do with *real*
analog engineering. It seems that most universities like to use this course
as a vehicle for \"weeding out\" what they consider to be unsuitable
students. In addition to this, many of the faculty stuck teaching this
course know very little about the subject as it pertains to real life
design issues. They act as though they are being punished by being forced
to teach this class. This is unfortunate, since it tends to turn off many
young engineering students to the field of analog circuit design. I can\'t
tell you how many students I\'ve known through the years that switched to
digital design (no pun intended) because of the experience thay had in a
similar circuits course. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why there are
so few analog design engineers out there and why they are in such high
demand. I can\'t tell you what to do about your particular situation, but if
you stick it out, as I did, the rewards are many.

Scott T. Dupuie
The Ohio State University
Department of Electrical Engineering
dup...@parts.eng.ohio-state.edu



--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

I ran into some IT types from OSU at the 1987 Dayton Hamfest. They had some old modulators and demodulators that were replaced when the on campus network was expanded. They used a private CATV to connect to the various buildings. A few years earlier, I ran into some AV types from Indiana University. The unlabeled boxes of 1\" video tape they gave me had been converted from film, the later to U-matic. It was all the crap from Kinsey Institute\'s sex studies. It went into the trash.

 

[bitrex]

On 11/5/2020 4:22 AM, Michael Terrell wrote:

On Wednesday, November 4, 2020 at 11:55:27 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:
The server at nntp.olduse.net is serving up selected parts of Usenet
with a 30-year delay. This one from sci.electronics may have some
points of contact for our recent discussions about analogue engineering.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

On 11/2/90 12:05 PM, Scott T. Dupuie wrote:
In article <11242.2...@ecs.umass.edu> toh...@ecs.umass.edu
(Chris Tohline) writes:

as a college sophmore I felt very confident about my major, computer
systems engineering. Then, I took a BASIC circuit analysis class.
now, I am very frusterated. Am I lost because my teacher is poor, or
is this just a difficult subject to grasp? I refuse to live with a \'C\'
and am very frusterated. But I\'m sure someday it will click and I\'ll
be happy again.

Chris Tohline

toh...@ecs.umass.edu

Chris,

This has been one of my \"pet peeves\" since I began my education in EE
8 years ago. I am currently completing a M.S. degree in this field, and
have spent some time teaching and working in industry as well. As much as
the academics may object, I can tell you with some certainty that your
introductory circuit analysis course has very little to do with *real*
analog engineering. It seems that most universities like to use this course
as a vehicle for \"weeding out\" what they consider to be unsuitable
students. In addition to this, many of the faculty stuck teaching this
course know very little about the subject as it pertains to real life
design issues. They act as though they are being punished by being forced
to teach this class. This is unfortunate, since it tends to turn off many
young engineering students to the field of analog circuit design. I can\'t
tell you how many students I\'ve known through the years that switched to
digital design (no pun intended) because of the experience thay had in a
similar circuits course. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why there are
so few analog design engineers out there and why they are in such high
demand. I can\'t tell you what to do about your particular situation, but if
you stick it out, as I did, the rewards are many.

Scott T. Dupuie
The Ohio State University
Department of Electrical Engineering
dup...@parts.eng.ohio-state.edu



--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com
I ran into some IT types from OSU at the 1987 Dayton Hamfest. They had some old modulators and demodulators that were replaced when the on campus network was expanded. They used a private CATV to connect to the various buildings. A few years earlier, I ran into some AV types from Indiana University. The unlabeled boxes of 1\" video tape they gave me had been converted from film, the later to U-matic. It was all the crap from Kinsey Institute\'s sex studies. It went into the trash.

Nice work, they\'d be worth about a million bucks to archivists and
historians, now.

 

[server]

On Wed, 4 Nov 2020 23:55:15 -0500, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

The server at nntp.olduse.net is serving up selected parts of Usenet
with a 30-year delay. This one from sci.electronics may have some
points of contact for our recent discussions about analogue engineering.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

On 11/2/90 12:05 PM, Scott T. Dupuie wrote:
In article <11242.2730bfd5@ecs.umass.edu> tohline@ecs.umass.edu
(Chris Tohline) writes:

as a college sophmore I felt very confident about my major, computer
systems engineering. Then, I took a BASIC circuit analysis class.
now, I am very frusterated. Am I lost because my teacher is poor, or
is this just a difficult subject to grasp? I refuse to live with a \'C\'
and am very frusterated. But I\'m sure someday it will click and I\'ll
be happy again.

Chris Tohline

tohline@ecs.umass.edu

Chris,

This has been one of my \"pet peeves\" since I began my education in EE
8 years ago. I am currently completing a M.S. degree in this field, and
have spent some time teaching and working in industry as well. As much as
the academics may object, I can tell you with some certainty that your
introductory circuit analysis course has very little to do with *real*
analog engineering. It seems that most universities like to use this course
as a vehicle for \"weeding out\" what they consider to be unsuitable
students. In addition to this, many of the faculty stuck teaching this
course know very little about the subject as it pertains to real life
design issues. They act as though they are being punished by being forced
to teach this class. This is unfortunate, since it tends to turn off many
young engineering students to the field of analog circuit design. I can\'t
tell you how many students I\'ve known through the years that switched to
digital design (no pun intended) because of the experience thay had in a
similar circuits course. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why there are
so few analog design engineers out there and why they are in such high
demand. I can\'t tell you what to do about your particular situation, but if
you stick it out, as I did, the rewards are many.

Scott T. Dupuie
The Ohio State University
Department of Electrical Engineering
dupuie@parts.eng.ohio-state.edu

I thought freshman chemistry was the classic weeder course.

I can see how a bad instructor handing out bad grades could turn kids
off from analog electronics. It should be fun.

I never took any digital design courses. They looked awfully abstract
to me. Does anyone actually use Karnaugh map minimization?



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard

 

[Jeroen Belleman]

On 2020-11-05 17:18, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
[...]

I thought freshman chemistry was the classic weeder course.

I can see how a bad instructor handing out bad grades could turn kids
off from analog electronics. It should be fun.

I never took any digital design courses. They looked awfully abstract
to me. Does anyone actually use Karnaugh map minimization?

Sometimes. I also use it in software, to simplify nested
\'if\' statements and state machines.

Jeroen Belleman

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 11/5/20 11:18 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Wed, 4 Nov 2020 23:55:15 -0500, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

The server at nntp.olduse.net is serving up selected parts of Usenet
with a 30-year delay. This one from sci.electronics may have some
points of contact for our recent discussions about analogue engineering.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

On 11/2/90 12:05 PM, Scott T. Dupuie wrote:
In article <11242.2730bfd5@ecs.umass.edu> tohline@ecs.umass.edu
(Chris Tohline) writes:

as a college sophmore I felt very confident about my major, computer
systems engineering. Then, I took a BASIC circuit analysis class.
now, I am very frusterated. Am I lost because my teacher is poor, or
is this just a difficult subject to grasp? I refuse to live with a \'C\'
and am very frusterated. But I\'m sure someday it will click and I\'ll
be happy again.

Chris Tohline

tohline@ecs.umass.edu

Chris,

This has been one of my \"pet peeves\" since I began my education in EE
8 years ago. I am currently completing a M.S. degree in this field, and
have spent some time teaching and working in industry as well. As much as
the academics may object, I can tell you with some certainty that your
introductory circuit analysis course has very little to do with *real*
analog engineering. It seems that most universities like to use this course
as a vehicle for \"weeding out\" what they consider to be unsuitable
students. In addition to this, many of the faculty stuck teaching this
course know very little about the subject as it pertains to real life
design issues. They act as though they are being punished by being forced
to teach this class. This is unfortunate, since it tends to turn off many
young engineering students to the field of analog circuit design. I can\'t
tell you how many students I\'ve known through the years that switched to
digital design (no pun intended) because of the experience thay had in a
similar circuits course. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why there are
so few analog design engineers out there and why they are in such high
demand. I can\'t tell you what to do about your particular situation, but if
you stick it out, as I did, the rewards are many.

Scott T. Dupuie
The Ohio State University
Department of Electrical Engineering
dupuie@parts.eng.ohio-state.edu



I thought freshman chemistry was the classic weeder course.

I can see how a bad instructor handing out bad grades could turn kids
off from analog electronics. It should be fun.

I never took any digital design courses. They looked awfully abstract
to me. Does anyone actually use Karnaugh map minimization?

Once in a great while when I need some bit of glue logic in an
out-of-the-way spot and need good timing, or when I\'ve run out of MCU pins.

It only works up to 4 inputs, but it allows you to use visual pattern
matching, which is quicker and much more fun than Boolean logic
minimization.

There are flexible gate chips (lineal descendents of the classical,
horrible and-or-invert gate) that can do several K maps in one small
package. Typical examples are the SN74LVC1G57 / 58, which between them
can make any 2-input logic function and quite a lot of 3-input ones.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[server]

On Thu, 05 Nov 2020 17:40:00 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

On 2020-11-05 17:18, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
[...]

I thought freshman chemistry was the classic weeder course.

I can see how a bad instructor handing out bad grades could turn kids
off from analog electronics. It should be fun.

I never took any digital design courses. They looked awfully abstract
to me. Does anyone actually use Karnaugh map minimization?


Sometimes. I also use it in software, to simplify nested
\'if\' statements and state machines.

Jeroen Belleman

Most of the digital stuff that I design is very simple, dumb glue
things or picosecond ECL/CML that doesn\'t do much real logic. Inside
an FPGA, my kids let the compiler do most of the work. It\'s basically
all SRAMS and lookup tables now.

Logic design has an intellectual purity that I understand is appealing
to students. Analog is messy and fuzzy and fundamentally disorganized.
At high speeds, even the digital stuff gets analog, in other words
uses measurements that do not resolve to 1 or 0.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard

 

[server]

On Thu, 5 Nov 2020 11:45:42 -0500, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 11/5/20 11:18 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Wed, 4 Nov 2020 23:55:15 -0500, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

The server at nntp.olduse.net is serving up selected parts of Usenet
with a 30-year delay. This one from sci.electronics may have some
points of contact for our recent discussions about analogue engineering.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

On 11/2/90 12:05 PM, Scott T. Dupuie wrote:
In article <11242.2730bfd5@ecs.umass.edu> tohline@ecs.umass.edu
(Chris Tohline) writes:

as a college sophmore I felt very confident about my major, computer
systems engineering. Then, I took a BASIC circuit analysis class.
now, I am very frusterated. Am I lost because my teacher is poor, or
is this just a difficult subject to grasp? I refuse to live with a \'C\'
and am very frusterated. But I\'m sure someday it will click and I\'ll
be happy again.

Chris Tohline

tohline@ecs.umass.edu

Chris,

This has been one of my \"pet peeves\" since I began my education in EE
8 years ago. I am currently completing a M.S. degree in this field, and
have spent some time teaching and working in industry as well. As much as
the academics may object, I can tell you with some certainty that your
introductory circuit analysis course has very little to do with *real*
analog engineering. It seems that most universities like to use this course
as a vehicle for \"weeding out\" what they consider to be unsuitable
students. In addition to this, many of the faculty stuck teaching this
course know very little about the subject as it pertains to real life
design issues. They act as though they are being punished by being forced
to teach this class. This is unfortunate, since it tends to turn off many
young engineering students to the field of analog circuit design. I can\'t
tell you how many students I\'ve known through the years that switched to
digital design (no pun intended) because of the experience thay had in a
similar circuits course. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why there are
so few analog design engineers out there and why they are in such high
demand. I can\'t tell you what to do about your particular situation, but if
you stick it out, as I did, the rewards are many.

Scott T. Dupuie
The Ohio State University
Department of Electrical Engineering
dupuie@parts.eng.ohio-state.edu



I thought freshman chemistry was the classic weeder course.

I can see how a bad instructor handing out bad grades could turn kids
off from analog electronics. It should be fun.

I never took any digital design courses. They looked awfully abstract
to me. Does anyone actually use Karnaugh map minimization?

Once in a great while when I need some bit of glue logic in an
out-of-the-way spot and need good timing, or when I\'ve run out of MCU pins.

It only works up to 4 inputs, but it allows you to use visual pattern
matching, which is quicker and much more fun than Boolean logic
minimization.

There are flexible gate chips (lineal descendents of the classical,
horrible and-or-invert gate) that can do several K maps in one small
package. Typical examples are the SN74LVC1G57 / 58, which between them
can make any 2-input logic function and quite a lot of 3-input ones.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

We use 1G57s now and then. It has a 5:1 speed range spec!

A few of the Tiny parts are 1 ns typ. I use a lot of NC7SV74 d-flops.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/38cqor56143u5s6/NC7SV74_2.JPG?raw=1

17 cents each.

Last week, we needed a 4-input OR gate to merge some trigger sources.
We used four diodes!



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 05/11/20 16:18, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Wed, 4 Nov 2020 23:55:15 -0500, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

The server at nntp.olduse.net is serving up selected parts of Usenet
with a 30-year delay. This one from sci.electronics may have some
points of contact for our recent discussions about analogue engineering.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

On 11/2/90 12:05 PM, Scott T. Dupuie wrote:
In article <11242.2730bfd5@ecs.umass.edu> tohline@ecs.umass.edu
(Chris Tohline) writes:

as a college sophmore I felt very confident about my major, computer
systems engineering. Then, I took a BASIC circuit analysis class.
now, I am very frusterated. Am I lost because my teacher is poor, or
is this just a difficult subject to grasp? I refuse to live with a \'C\'
and am very frusterated. But I\'m sure someday it will click and I\'ll
be happy again.

Chris Tohline

tohline@ecs.umass.edu

Chris,

This has been one of my \"pet peeves\" since I began my education in EE
8 years ago. I am currently completing a M.S. degree in this field, and
have spent some time teaching and working in industry as well. As much as
the academics may object, I can tell you with some certainty that your
introductory circuit analysis course has very little to do with *real*
analog engineering. It seems that most universities like to use this course
as a vehicle for \"weeding out\" what they consider to be unsuitable
students. In addition to this, many of the faculty stuck teaching this
course know very little about the subject as it pertains to real life
design issues. They act as though they are being punished by being forced
to teach this class. This is unfortunate, since it tends to turn off many
young engineering students to the field of analog circuit design. I can\'t
tell you how many students I\'ve known through the years that switched to
digital design (no pun intended) because of the experience thay had in a
similar circuits course. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why there are
so few analog design engineers out there and why they are in such high
demand. I can\'t tell you what to do about your particular situation, but if
you stick it out, as I did, the rewards are many.

Scott T. Dupuie
The Ohio State University
Department of Electrical Engineering
dupuie@parts.eng.ohio-state.edu



I thought freshman chemistry was the classic weeder course.

I can see how a bad instructor handing out bad grades could turn kids
off from analog electronics. It should be fun.

I never took any digital design courses. They looked awfully abstract
to me. Does anyone actually use Karnaugh map minimization?

The one area where they excel, and which I doubt is taught
nowadays, is when/where it is necessary to insert bridging
terms.

There are two essential execution mechanisms in logic
simulators: \"transport\" and \"inertial\". One can spot the
effects of missing bridging terms but is slower, the
other is faster but can miss the effects.

I learned that the hard way in the early 80s w.r.t. a
semi-custom design. HiLo missed the flaw in my design, but
the fab company\'s Tegas spotted it before it was released
for manufacture.

 

[bitrex]

On 11/5/2020 11:18 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Wed, 4 Nov 2020 23:55:15 -0500, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

The server at nntp.olduse.net is serving up selected parts of Usenet
with a 30-year delay. This one from sci.electronics may have some
points of contact for our recent discussions about analogue engineering.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

On 11/2/90 12:05 PM, Scott T. Dupuie wrote:
In article <11242.2730bfd5@ecs.umass.edu> tohline@ecs.umass.edu
(Chris Tohline) writes:

as a college sophmore I felt very confident about my major, computer
systems engineering. Then, I took a BASIC circuit analysis class.
now, I am very frusterated. Am I lost because my teacher is poor, or
is this just a difficult subject to grasp? I refuse to live with a \'C\'
and am very frusterated. But I\'m sure someday it will click and I\'ll
be happy again.

Chris Tohline

tohline@ecs.umass.edu

Chris,

This has been one of my \"pet peeves\" since I began my education in EE
8 years ago. I am currently completing a M.S. degree in this field, and
have spent some time teaching and working in industry as well. As much as
the academics may object, I can tell you with some certainty that your
introductory circuit analysis course has very little to do with *real*
analog engineering. It seems that most universities like to use this course
as a vehicle for \"weeding out\" what they consider to be unsuitable
students. In addition to this, many of the faculty stuck teaching this
course know very little about the subject as it pertains to real life
design issues. They act as though they are being punished by being forced
to teach this class. This is unfortunate, since it tends to turn off many
young engineering students to the field of analog circuit design. I can\'t
tell you how many students I\'ve known through the years that switched to
digital design (no pun intended) because of the experience thay had in a
similar circuits course. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why there are
so few analog design engineers out there and why they are in such high
demand. I can\'t tell you what to do about your particular situation, but if
you stick it out, as I did, the rewards are many.

Scott T. Dupuie
The Ohio State University
Department of Electrical Engineering
dupuie@parts.eng.ohio-state.edu



I thought freshman chemistry was the classic weeder course.

I can see how a bad instructor handing out bad grades could turn kids
off from analog electronics. It should be fun.

I never took any digital design courses. They looked awfully abstract
to me. Does anyone actually use Karnaugh map minimization?

There are \"apps\" that will minimize 8 or 10 boolean inputs without races.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quine%E2%80%93McCluskey_algorithm>

What task someone would be using a collection of dumb gates with
asynchronous inputs for more boolean variables than that for in the
modern era is unclear to me.

 

[Don Y]

On 11/5/2020 9:40 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:

On 2020-11-05 17:18, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
[...]

Does anyone actually use Karnaugh map minimization?

Sometimes. I also use it in software, to simplify nested
\'if\' statements and state machines.

They\'re good for catching hazards (even in software logic).

Implication tables are my go-to tool as I use FSMs extensively.

 

[bitrex]

On 11/5/2020 11:40 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:

On 2020-11-05 17:18, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
[...]

I thought freshman chemistry was the classic weeder course.

I can see how a bad instructor handing out bad grades could turn kids
off from analog electronics. It should be fun.

I never took any digital design courses. They looked awfully abstract
to me. Does anyone actually use Karnaugh map minimization?


Sometimes. I also use it in software, to simplify nested
\'if\' statements and state machines.

Jeroen Belleman

It\'s useful (particularly when calculated by computer) if you have a
sequence of D flip-flops generating say an 8 or 16-step stepped sinewave
and want to figure out which taps to take to convert that into an
optimal \"magic sinewave\" PWM-like waveform:

<https://www.tinaja.com/magsn01.shtml>

or generally fire pulses of a particular width at particular phases of
the waveform.

 

[Edward Rawde]

<jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote in message
news:6gb8qftt2h4jur3vl6kh6kt6rh0ckmke09@4ax.com...

On Thu, 5 Nov 2020 11:45:42 -0500, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 11/5/20 11:18 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Wed, 4 Nov 2020 23:55:15 -0500, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

The server at nntp.olduse.net is serving up selected parts of Usenet
with a 30-year delay. This one from sci.electronics may have some
points of contact for our recent discussions about analogue
engineering.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

On 11/2/90 12:05 PM, Scott T. Dupuie wrote:
In article <11242.2730bfd5@ecs.umass.edu> tohline@ecs.umass.edu
(Chris Tohline) writes:

as a college sophmore I felt very confident about my major, computer
systems engineering. Then, I took a BASIC circuit analysis class.
now, I am very frusterated. Am I lost because my teacher is poor, or
is this just a difficult subject to grasp? I refuse to live with a
\'C\'
and am very frusterated. But I\'m sure someday it will click and I\'ll
be happy again.

Chris Tohline
We use 1G57s now and then. It has a 5:1 speed range spec!

A few of the Tiny parts are 1 ns typ. I use a lot of NC7SV74 d-flops.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/38cqor56143u5s6/NC7SV74_2.JPG?raw=1

17 cents each.

Last week, we needed a 4-input OR gate to merge some trigger sources.
We used four diodes!

I\'ve seen people use expensive chips when a diode and resistor would have
been fine.

But then I was introduced to logic gates as diodes, resistors and the
occasional transistor if an inverter was needed.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard

 

[Rickster C]

On Thursday, November 5, 2020 at 11:18:41 AM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Wed, 4 Nov 2020 23:55:15 -0500, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

The server at nntp.olduse.net is serving up selected parts of Usenet
with a 30-year delay. This one from sci.electronics may have some
points of contact for our recent discussions about analogue engineering.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

On 11/2/90 12:05 PM, Scott T. Dupuie wrote:
In article <11242.2730bfd5@ecs.umass.edu> tohline@ecs.umass.edu
(Chris Tohline) writes:

as a college sophmore I felt very confident about my major, computer
systems engineering. Then, I took a BASIC circuit analysis class.
now, I am very frusterated. Am I lost because my teacher is poor, or
is this just a difficult subject to grasp? I refuse to live with a \'C\'
and am very frusterated. But I\'m sure someday it will click and I\'ll
be happy again.

Chris Tohline

tohline@ecs.umass.edu

Chris,

This has been one of my \"pet peeves\" since I began my education in EE
8 years ago. I am currently completing a M.S. degree in this field, and
have spent some time teaching and working in industry as well. As much as
the academics may object, I can tell you with some certainty that your
introductory circuit analysis course has very little to do with *real*
analog engineering. It seems that most universities like to use this course
as a vehicle for \"weeding out\" what they consider to be unsuitable
students. In addition to this, many of the faculty stuck teaching this
course know very little about the subject as it pertains to real life
design issues. They act as though they are being punished by being forced
to teach this class. This is unfortunate, since it tends to turn off many
young engineering students to the field of analog circuit design. I can\'t
tell you how many students I\'ve known through the years that switched to
digital design (no pun intended) because of the experience thay had in a
similar circuits course. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why there are
so few analog design engineers out there and why they are in such high
demand. I can\'t tell you what to do about your particular situation, but if
you stick it out, as I did, the rewards are many.

Scott T. Dupuie
The Ohio State University
Department of Electrical Engineering
dupuie@parts.eng.ohio-state.edu



I thought freshman chemistry was the classic weeder course.

I can see how a bad instructor handing out bad grades could turn kids
off from analog electronics. It should be fun.

I never took any digital design courses. They looked awfully abstract
to me. Does anyone actually use Karnaugh map minimization?

My school had a vocational program which included electronics which I took for 3 years. The instructor was a dick. He ran the class like a factory. By the end of the three years I didn\'t want any part of working in electronics. It took me one year working as a chemist to realize my mistake by thinking of a job as being based on the classroom experience under that dick and that I wanted to work in electronics.

Teachers can make or break students.

I don\'t use Karnaugh map minimization now, but they were important 40 years ago. I can do the same thing in my head with two or three inputs. The implementations now are complex enough or simple enough that Karnaugh maps are of little use, but knowing how they work allows me to forgo using tools to understand what I need to know. It\'s also helpful to be able to \"see\" the De Morgan equivalents in a circuit. Even if the circuit is not drawn as such, I draw them in my head while designing them.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Don Y]

On 11/5/2020 11:22 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:

I\'ve seen people use expensive chips when a diode and resistor would have
been fine.

But then I was introduced to logic gates as diodes, resistors and the
occasional transistor if an inverter was needed.

A fellow I worked with designed a graphic LCD interface. As he was unsure
of the exact logic required to derive a few of the control signals, he
installed an *EPROM* to act as a crude PLA. This let him release the
board to manufacturing while he tinkered with the contents of the EPROM.

I looked at the functionality that it was effectively providing. It
(and the time to PROGRAM it!) could be replaced by a quad NAND and hex
inverter.

<shakes head>

 

[Rickster C]

On Thursday, November 5, 2020 at 11:40:09 AM UTC-5, Jeroen Belleman wrote:

On 2020-11-05 17:18, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
[...]

I thought freshman chemistry was the classic weeder course.

I can see how a bad instructor handing out bad grades could turn kids
off from analog electronics. It should be fun.

I never took any digital design courses. They looked awfully abstract
to me. Does anyone actually use Karnaugh map minimization?


Sometimes. I also use it in software, to simplify nested
\'if\' statements and state machines.

Jeroen Belleman

I don\'t care for IF statements, too much baggage. C and I think Verilog have an expression that provides two different results depending on a third expression. A:B?C A if C else B

VHDL has an assignment statement like this, but it\'s not an expression so can\'t be used anywhere else such as to control an IF or a LOOP, etc. So the IFs get nested deeply. Ugly... lots and lots of Ugly.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rickster C]

On Thursday, November 5, 2020 at 11:45:55 AM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:

On 11/5/20 11:18 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Wed, 4 Nov 2020 23:55:15 -0500, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

The server at nntp.olduse.net is serving up selected parts of Usenet
with a 30-year delay. This one from sci.electronics may have some
points of contact for our recent discussions about analogue engineering.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

On 11/2/90 12:05 PM, Scott T. Dupuie wrote:
In article <11242.2730bfd5@ecs.umass.edu> tohline@ecs.umass.edu
(Chris Tohline) writes:

as a college sophmore I felt very confident about my major, computer
systems engineering. Then, I took a BASIC circuit analysis class.
now, I am very frusterated. Am I lost because my teacher is poor, or
is this just a difficult subject to grasp? I refuse to live with a \'C\'
and am very frusterated. But I\'m sure someday it will click and I\'ll
be happy again.

Chris Tohline

tohline@ecs.umass.edu

Chris,

This has been one of my \"pet peeves\" since I began my education in EE
8 years ago. I am currently completing a M.S. degree in this field, and
have spent some time teaching and working in industry as well. As much as
the academics may object, I can tell you with some certainty that your
introductory circuit analysis course has very little to do with *real*
analog engineering. It seems that most universities like to use this course
as a vehicle for \"weeding out\" what they consider to be unsuitable
students. In addition to this, many of the faculty stuck teaching this
course know very little about the subject as it pertains to real life
design issues. They act as though they are being punished by being forced
to teach this class. This is unfortunate, since it tends to turn off many
young engineering students to the field of analog circuit design. I can\'t
tell you how many students I\'ve known through the years that switched to
digital design (no pun intended) because of the experience thay had in a
similar circuits course. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why there are
so few analog design engineers out there and why they are in such high
demand. I can\'t tell you what to do about your particular situation, but if
you stick it out, as I did, the rewards are many.

Scott T. Dupuie
The Ohio State University
Department of Electrical Engineering
dupuie@parts.eng.ohio-state.edu



I thought freshman chemistry was the classic weeder course.

I can see how a bad instructor handing out bad grades could turn kids
off from analog electronics. It should be fun.

I never took any digital design courses. They looked awfully abstract
to me. Does anyone actually use Karnaugh map minimization?

Once in a great while when I need some bit of glue logic in an
out-of-the-way spot and need good timing, or when I\'ve run out of MCU pins.

It only works up to 4 inputs, but it allows you to use visual pattern
matching, which is quicker and much more fun than Boolean logic
minimization.

There are flexible gate chips (lineal descendents of the classical,
horrible and-or-invert gate) that can do several K maps in one small
package. Typical examples are the SN74LVC1G57 / 58, which between them
can make any 2-input logic function and quite a lot of 3-input ones.

Karnaugh maps can be used with more than 4 inputs. You just need to be able to \"see\" them in 3d. But if you have more than 4 inputs it is highly likely that it can be broken into two, independent maps. The real issue is that hardly anyone ever uses gates on a board other than in PLDs. So a couple of gates in chips for the basic functions, then use a mux for bigger functions, then use a PLD.

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209