DNA animation

On Friday, May 10, 2019 at 7:55:06 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 9 May 2019 19:36:39 +0100, Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 09/05/19 19:14, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 9 May 2019 16:28:43 +0100, Martin Brown
'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

On 09/05/2019 15:37, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 9 May 2019 09:07:01 +0100, Martin Brown
'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

On 08/05/2019 17:53, John Larkin wrote:

[snip]

I wonder how that could evolve by random processes.

You start out with a spot that is light sensitive and gradually evolve
under competitive pressure. Every tiny incremental improvement makes
survival of the owner more likely (all other things being equal),
neutral things make no difference and defects tend to get you killed.

People seem to forget that incremental improvements stack up
exponentially so that 100 1% improvements gets you to 270%.

Why would incremental evolution go through a large number of
iterations to produce a "terrible design" human eye? Each step would

It isn't terrible but it is nothing like well designed. It is just about
good enough for the purpose of keeping a hominid omnivore alive.

Not every change is for the better either but the ones that are get to
survive and reproduce combining in different ways with each successive
generation. How hard is that to understand?

Humans have done it to domestic dogs and livestock pretty much since we
stopped being hunter gatherers. Playing god with the traits we
considered most desirable in them and selective breeding. The selection
pressure being what we consider useful/pretty rather than predation.

make it worse, and the final, immensely complex, result would be a
competitive disadvantage.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK482309/figure/retinal_degeneration.F18/

Oh wow! A pretty picture taken out of context. How interesting!

Why would a designer equip us with such a botched design having already
got it right in cephalopods? We have a blind spot where the nerve bundle
enters the eye. They do not. Ours is a considerably worse design.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cephalopod_eye


It is pretty much the difference between a bog standard cheap and nasty
webcam design and a thinned rear window astronomical CCD camera.

Why would variation and selection result in an extraordinally complex
and optically inferior eye, when squid had a better one already?

Oh, come on John: /think/ before you post! Speculate a little :)

The answer to that really isn't difficult.

The best answer is that our eyes aren't actually inferior, given what
we use them for. There's no other species on the planet that can
out-hunt a human with a gun and some insect repellant.

The "human eyes are badly designed" position is used as an argument
against an all-wise Creator. That's dumb, to let an emotional position
interfere with reasoning.

If there was a creator who designed the human eye, it clearly could have done better. The emotional position that finds the existence of a creator attractive interferes with a lot of reasoning - not that John Larkin would know much about that since his idea of reasoning isn't much more advanced than krw's.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 
On Friday, May 10, 2019 at 7:48:36 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 9 May 2019 13:09:53 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com
wrote:

On Thursday, May 9, 2019 at 7:12:53 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 9 May 2019 01:56:25 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com
wrote:

On Wednesday, May 8, 2019 at 8:09:39 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:

Yup, most gene correlation studies are wrong.

Meaning, what?

Statistically invalid. Cherry picked for publication. Not
reproducible. Faked.

Most statistics are valid, but not necessarily easily understood.

That's true. Given enough even random data, and an open mind about
expectations, one can tease out small p-value correlations and
publish.


Most publishers ARE picky, but a 'wrong' conclusion cannot be
reached on that basis in any meaningful way. The publishers
that are NOT picky, you just have to notice that they're supported
by advertisements for whoopie-cushions and X-ray glasses.

Or by page fees and paid access.

John Larkin hasn't published in a peer-reviewed journal. It shows.

I've never paid a page fee, and tend to read peer-reviewed journals in university libraries - they aren't picky about who they let in.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 
On Friday, May 10, 2019 at 5:37:18 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 9 May 2019 19:23:47 +0100, Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 09/05/19 16:24, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 08 May 2019 21:49:14 -0400, Joseph Gwinn
joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

On May 8, 2019, John Larkin wrote
(in article<cto5depv30g3gh1dd4i6vm40e1m5cq5kta@4ax.com>):

On Wed, 08 May 2019 09:44:21 -0400, Joseph Gwinn
joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

On May 8, 2019, John Larkin wrote
(in article<k9m4de93eokbg9gh91ekedg0vsu06kg34q@4ax.com>):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpHaxzroYxg

This is insane. This is impossible.

Yes, but that is how it works. It took some billions of years for all that
organized complexity to evolve, one trick at a time.

But it couldn't evolve one bit at a time. If it doesn't all work, none
of it works. And it builds every bit of itself.

Sure it can. Very slowly, with lots of mistakes made and then erased. Not an
efficient process at all. But it does not need to be.

But each incremental step must be an improvement or it won't be
selected.

Not quite.

Incremental steps that are worse become deselected.

Not the same thing at all.

Sounds equivalent to me.

So how did we evolve such bad eyes?

We evolved eyes that were good enough for the job - not bad enough to get the owners deselected.

DNA is useless without a complex machinery to support and use and copy
it; see the video. But DNA is programmed to build all those support
things. How could that happen? Where did the programming come from?

DNA is not "programmed"; there is no "programmer".

Of course it's programmed. It systhesizes specific proteins and
structures. And viruses.

DNA encodes a program - in fact quite a number of programs - but it wasn't programmed. The programs evolved by reproduction with variation.

The variations that disrupted the programs already there killed the organisms that embodied them. The variations that worked as an improved program made the organisms that carried them more competitive, so they came to dominate the population.

What on earth do you think that inheritance with variation means?

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 
On Friday, May 10, 2019 at 4:14:27 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 9 May 2019 16:28:43 +0100, Martin Brown
'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

On 09/05/2019 15:37, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 9 May 2019 09:07:01 +0100, Martin Brown
'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

On 08/05/2019 17:53, John Larkin wrote:

[snip]

I wonder how that could evolve by random processes.

You start out with a spot that is light sensitive and gradually evolve
under competitive pressure. Every tiny incremental improvement makes
survival of the owner more likely (all other things being equal),
neutral things make no difference and defects tend to get you killed.

People seem to forget that incremental improvements stack up
exponentially so that 100 1% improvements gets you to 270%.

Why would incremental evolution go through a large number of
iterations to produce a "terrible design" human eye? Each step would

It isn't terrible but it is nothing like well designed. It is just about
good enough for the purpose of keeping a hominid omnivore alive.

Not every change is for the better either but the ones that are get to
survive and reproduce combining in different ways with each successive
generation. How hard is that to understand?

Humans have done it to domestic dogs and livestock pretty much since we
stopped being hunter gatherers. Playing god with the traits we
considered most desirable in them and selective breeding. The selection
pressure being what we consider useful/pretty rather than predation.

make it worse, and the final, immensely complex, result would be a
competitive disadvantage.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK482309/figure/retinal_degeneration.F18/

Oh wow! A pretty picture taken out of context. How interesting!

Why would a designer equip us with such a botched design having already
got it right in cephalopods? We have a blind spot where the nerve bundle
enters the eye. They do not. Ours is a considerably worse design.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cephalopod_eye


It is pretty much the difference between a bog standard cheap and nasty
webcam design and a thinned rear window astronomical CCD camera.

Why would variation and selection result in an extraordinally complex
and optically inferior eye, when squid had a better one already?

Because variation and selection works on what it has got. Vertebrates diverged from molluscs around 500 million years ago and the most recent common ancestor doesn't seem to have had eyes.

Horizontal gene transfers don't occur with multicellular organisms - or at least not for stuff as complicated as eyes. The vertebrates had to invent their own eyes, and couldn't poach the mollusc design.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 
On Friday, May 10, 2019 at 1:24:32 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 08 May 2019 21:49:14 -0400, Joseph Gwinn
joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

On May 8, 2019, John Larkin wrote
(in article<cto5depv30g3gh1dd4i6vm40e1m5cq5kta@4ax.com>):

On Wed, 08 May 2019 09:44:21 -0400, Joseph Gwinn
joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

On May 8, 2019, John Larkin wrote
(in article<k9m4de93eokbg9gh91ekedg0vsu06kg34q@4ax.com>):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpHaxzroYxg

This is insane. This is impossible.

Yes, but that is how it works. It took some billions of years for all that
organized complexity to evolve, one trick at a time.

But it couldn't evolve one bit at a time. If it doesn't all work, none
of it works. And it builds every bit of itself.

Sure it can. Very slowly, with lots of mistakes made and then erased. Not an
efficient process at all. But it does not need to be.

But each incremental step must be an improvement or it won't be
selected. So how can evolution build an immensely complex system,
where all the pieces have to be working before any of it it can work
(and reproduce itself) ?

DNA is useless without a complex machinery to support and use and copy
it; see the video. But DNA is programmed to build all those support
things. How could that happen? Where did the programming come from?

Reproduction with variation, and selection that deleted the variations that didn't work (which is most of them).

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 
On Friday, May 10, 2019 at 9:15:59 AM UTC+10, Neon John wrote:
On Wed, 8 May 2019 01:04:50 -0500, "Tim Williams"
tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> wrote:

What's insane is people still think this stuff was created in the snap of
some magic finger.

OT to SED, of course, but when this discussion arises, either here or
in real life, I wonder. Why is it that the atheist is the only one to
cram that belief into everyone else's faces?

Agnostic is the more usual position. An atheist believes that there isn't a god, which does seem to be an untestable hypothesis.

And agnostic asserts that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God. If an actual god appeared, they would reconsider the position, but currently there isn't any persuasive evidence that one exists or has ever exixted.

> It's as if he has some sort of compulsion to offend.

I've had Seventh Day Adventists knocking on my door, but no atheists.

He has to know that in the US, maybe 3/4 of the population will
instantly hate him and a significant portion of those left will lose
interest in associating with him in the future.

The US educational system has clear and obvious defects, any of which are exhibited here on a regular basis. Is not believing in any god more offensive than believing in the wrong god? They hanged Quakers for heresy in Boston some time ago, but no atheists.

Religious tolerance is written into the US constitution, but Neon John seems to thinks that 3/4 of the population still hasn't got the message.

Nowhere else in the universe is the saying "Better to be thought a
fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt" been more apropos.

Neon John removed all doubt years ago.

> Just curious.

Not curious enough to get a decent grip of what he was talking about.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 
On Friday, May 10, 2019 at 8:15:20 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 9 May 2019 22:55:04 +0100, Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 09/05/19 22:34, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 9 May 2019 21:05:23 +0100, Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 09/05/19 20:36, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 9 May 2019 19:23:47 +0100, Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 09/05/19 16:24, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 08 May 2019 21:49:14 -0400, Joseph Gwinn
joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

On May 8, 2019, John Larkin wrote
(in article<cto5depv30g3gh1dd4i6vm40e1m5cq5kta@4ax.com>):

On Wed, 08 May 2019 09:44:21 -0400, Joseph Gwinn
joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

On May 8, 2019, John Larkin wrote
(in article<k9m4de93eokbg9gh91ekedg0vsu06kg34q@4ax.com>):

<snip>

Or maybe you are using the word "programmed" in a way
that is unfamiliar to me.

DNA has long sequences of base pairs that direct the synthesis of
complex molecules, and physical structures in people, and then more
DNA itself. I consider those sets of instructions to be programs, with
instruction sets, that are executed by cellular machinery. I don't
know who the authors are, but people are now learning how to edit
those programs.

s/program/recipe/ or s/program/instruction/ and I'll
be happier.

"Program" implies "programmer", and that's creationism
using different terminology.

That's your fear, getting anywhere near creationism. Fear creates
avoidance, and avoidance creates blind spots.

Nobody is frightened of getting anywhere near creationism. Quite a few of us find creationism distasteful, on account of the bad logic and specious arguments used to promote it, but the same bad logic that makes creationists distasteful also makes them contemptible, rather than threatening. Fear doesn't come into it.

People are indeed learning how to edit the recipe and
create recipes from scratch.

The program instructions specify the construction of the machines that
execute the programs. That's life, I guess. [1]

The instructions do that, and it is life (which has
multiple definitions :) )

I kind of hope that someone left copyright notices.

I guess you object to calling these sequences of base pair
instructions "programs" because you are afraid that might sound like
creationism. I suspect that fear of the c-word prevents all sorts of
things from being discovered. Actually, that effect has been
documented.

I'm not afraid of it sounding like creationism.

I am afraid of the ignorance associated with creationism,
and of some of the social policies promoted by those that
espouse creationism.

That's no reason to look away from possibilities past primordial soup.

Fear disables thought.

There are other mechanisms that create the same effect. In John Larkin's case it's simple ignorance - he doesn't know enough about the subjects on which he pontificates to have any useful thoughts, and he spends his time re-inventing well known misapprehensions.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 
On 10/5/19 1:24 pm, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Friday, May 10, 2019 at 5:37:18 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
So how did we evolve such bad eyes?

We evolved eyes that were good enough for the job - not bad enough to get the owners deselected.

Correction: not near enough to something better to emerge and
out-compete them.
 
On 10/5/19 2:02 pm, Bill Sloman wrote:
> An atheist believes that there isn't a god, which does seem to be an untestable hypothesis.

I've made that argument many times, but recently it was pointed out to
me that it might be invalid. Parsed as a-the-ist, you can parenthesize
it as (a-the)-ist (there positively is no personal god) or as a-(theist)
(there is not positively any personal god). I've argued the former, but
the latter makes more sense etymologically, since the word "theist"
existed first, and the a(nti)- prefix was added to that.

> And agnostic asserts that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God. If an actual god appeared, they would reconsider the position, but currently there isn't any persuasive evidence that one exists or has ever exixted.

Personally, I'm a non-theist. The question can neither be answered *nor
asked* because the term at the centre *does not refer*.

Clifford Heath.
 
On 10/5/19 1:30 pm, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Friday, May 10, 2019 at 7:48:36 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 9 May 2019 13:09:53 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com
wrote:

On Thursday, May 9, 2019 at 7:12:53 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 9 May 2019 01:56:25 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com
wrote:

On Wednesday, May 8, 2019 at 8:09:39 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:

Yup, most gene correlation studies are wrong.

Meaning, what?

Statistically invalid. Cherry picked for publication. Not
reproducible. Faked.

Most statistics are valid, but not necessarily easily understood.

That's true. Given enough even random data, and an open mind about
expectations, one can tease out small p-value correlations and
publish.


Most publishers ARE picky, but a 'wrong' conclusion cannot be
reached on that basis in any meaningful way. The publishers
that are NOT picky, you just have to notice that they're supported
by advertisements for whoopie-cushions and X-ray glasses.

Or by page fees and paid access.

John Larkin hasn't published in a peer-reviewed journal. It shows.

I've never paid a page fee, and tend to read peer-reviewed journals in university libraries - they aren't picky about who they let in.

Neither is https://sci-hub.se
 
On 2019-05-09, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, May 9, 2019 at 12:31:11 AM UTC-4, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2019-05-08, John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote:
On Wed, 8 May 2019 16:54:08 +0100, Martin Brown
'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:


There is still a lot of hand waving. As in

"it is fruitful to consider the alternative possibility that RNA was
preceded by some other replicating, evolving molecule, just as DNA and
proteins were preceded by RNA."

Is that a fact? In modern life, DNA builds RNA.

Reverse transcriptase does the opposite.

but the RNA for that is found in retroviruses so it could be argued that
it's not "life", weasel words that pomoters of that claim may cling
to.

Really? There are people who claim viruses are not life? I don't know what they think viruses are then.

See "MRS GREN" they do no have many of the properties associated with
living things

--
When I tried casting out nines I made a hash of it.
 
On Thu, 9 May 2019 15:06:39 -0700 (PDT), Rick C wrote:

But each incremental step must be an improvement or it won't be
selected. So how can evolution build an immensely complex system,
where all the pieces have to be working before any of it it can work
(and reproduce itself) ?

No. It doesn't. You are putting arbitrary constraints on what evolution
can and cannot do. Evolution has explored many weird dead ends as well.

Sorry, your ideas aren't in line with reality. While any given trait or even species can die out, when it formed and spread through a population it provided an advantage or at least offered no substantial liability. While a trait can spread through a population over time even without being of much benefit, if it is a liability it will be selected out.

The point here is that if a change isn't useful at the moment it can
survive for generations provided it doesn't do undue harm. Another
change later could use the previous one to form a benefit. Individual
changes don't have to provide a benefit to survive and can be utilised
many generations later when they do offer a benefit. It doesn't have to
be step by incremental step, provided the organism survives it has
time, a lot of time.

--
Regards - Rodney Pont
The from address exists but is mostly dumped,
please send any emails to the address below
e-mail rpont (at) gmail (dot) com
 
On 2019-05-09, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, May 9, 2019 at 5:26:39 AM UTC-4, Tim Williams wrote:
"Rick C" <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:979b244c-1168-45f3-9661-1952dda50fc1@googlegroups.com...
I recall an evolutionary experiment which I believe was done in an analog
circuit simulation, I don't recall for sure.
snip


It was in an FPGA -- think the goal was to make an oscillator, without any
particular design constraints as we would think. I don't recall if outputs
driving outputs were prohibited, or if it went ahead with such abuse
regardless.

I thought it was an FPGA, but that seemed a bit odd for the resulting circuit features.

As I recall it was a FPGA and it was trained to do some telephony
task, possibly DTMF decoding or V.21 decoding, it was not provided
with an external clock signal, or possibly it was but it didn't
actually use it..

>> The result was very fragile too, AFAIK.

yeah, the bitcode was not portable to other chips from the same batch.

--
When I tried casting out nines I made a hash of it.
 
On Friday, May 10, 2019 at 3:20:45 PM UTC+10, Clifford Heath wrote:
On 10/5/19 1:24 pm, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Friday, May 10, 2019 at 5:37:18 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
So how did we evolve such bad eyes?

We evolved eyes that were good enough for the job - not bad enough to get the owners deselected.

Correction: not near enough to something better to emerge and
out-compete them.

That hasn't happened yet but it could.

Australian aboriginals have better vision than the more recent immigrants to the continent, though their domestic arrangements make them more prone to losing this advantage as they get older (and they typically don't get as old as the more recent immigrant stock).

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-04-08/prince-harry-may-struggle-to-keep-up-with-aboriginal-super-sight/6378066

Fred Hollows pointed this out some time ago.

It doesn't seem to give them a useful competitive advantage at the moment, but it might later.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 
On 09/05/19 22:54, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 9 May 2019 19:36:39 +0100, Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 09/05/19 19:14, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 9 May 2019 16:28:43 +0100, Martin Brown
'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

On 09/05/2019 15:37, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 9 May 2019 09:07:01 +0100, Martin Brown
'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

On 08/05/2019 17:53, John Larkin wrote:

[snip]

I wonder how that could evolve by random processes.

You start out with a spot that is light sensitive and gradually evolve
under competitive pressure. Every tiny incremental improvement makes
survival of the owner more likely (all other things being equal),
neutral things make no difference and defects tend to get you killed.

People seem to forget that incremental improvements stack up
exponentially so that 100 1% improvements gets you to 270%.

Why would incremental evolution go through a large number of
iterations to produce a "terrible design" human eye? Each step would

It isn't terrible but it is nothing like well designed. It is just about
good enough for the purpose of keeping a hominid omnivore alive.

Not every change is for the better either but the ones that are get to
survive and reproduce combining in different ways with each successive
generation. How hard is that to understand?

Humans have done it to domestic dogs and livestock pretty much since we
stopped being hunter gatherers. Playing god with the traits we
considered most desirable in them and selective breeding. The selection
pressure being what we consider useful/pretty rather than predation.

make it worse, and the final, immensely complex, result would be a
competitive disadvantage.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK482309/figure/retinal_degeneration.F18/

Oh wow! A pretty picture taken out of context. How interesting!

Why would a designer equip us with such a botched design having already
got it right in cephalopods? We have a blind spot where the nerve bundle
enters the eye. They do not. Ours is a considerably worse design.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cephalopod_eye


It is pretty much the difference between a bog standard cheap and nasty
webcam design and a thinned rear window astronomical CCD camera.

Why would variation and selection result in an extraordinally complex
and optically inferior eye, when squid had a better one already?

Oh, come on John: /think/ before you post! Speculate a little :)

The answer to that really isn't difficult.

The best answer is that our eyes aren't actually inferior, given what
we use them for.

That's a lame point.

Would you also say that my old 1Mpixel digital camera
isn't inferior to my current 6Mpixel camera because
I use the old one in circumstances where there is a
high chance the camera will be damaged?


There's no other species on the planet that can
out-hunt a human with a gun and some insect repellant.

See Rick's reply!


The "human eyes are badly designed" position is used as an argument
against an all-wise Creator. That's dumb, to let an emotional position
interfere with reasoning.

And believing in a God isn't?

To get people to believe in gods two arguments are
used: fear and comfort. Both are purely emotional.
 
On May 9, 2019, John Larkin wrote
(in article<i9e8deha5kr20oj82kthnp26tuivb02dvd@4ax.com>):

On Thu, 9 May 2019 09:07:01 +0100, Martin Brown
'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

On 08/05/2019 17:53, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 8 May 2019 17:35:25 +0100, Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 08/05/19 15:31, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Thursday, May 9, 2019 at 12:11:14 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 8 May 2019 01:04:50 -0500, "Tim Williams"
tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> wrote:

Hardly. There's a lot of room at the bottom. A phrase still as tru

today as it was half a century ago!

What's insane is people still think this stuff was created in the
nap
of some magic finger.

Tim

It's even crazier that some people think it happened at random.

Nothing crazy about it. That's what random variation plus selection ca

manage.

The crazies are the intelligent design fans, who think that an
intelligent
designer would have gone to all that trouble then not put in any error
detection and correction coding.

Plus give us humans clearly "suboptimal" designs when
there are better designs available, e.g. the "wiring"
between our retina and our brains.

I read one book that suggests that our retinas aren't designed wrong.
The light has to make its way through a maze of nerves and blood
vessels to hit the sensitive stuff on the back of the retina, which
sounds bad, but the light is conveyed through the maze on fiber
optics.

Our eyes are a terrible design compared to either top preditors or deep
sea cephalopods. They are just good enough for a hominid omnivore. We
have the advantageous feature of colour vision for seeing ripe fruit. A
few people have various forms of colour blindness and much rarer are
people who can distinguish living and dead plant pigments by eye.

Raptor livers are another complete disaster area. Somewhat dodgy
compromises for being able to fly fast and take severe impact stresses.

If a God designed them then he was having an off day when he did so.

I wonder how that could evolve by random processes.

You start out with a spot that is light sensitive and gradually evolve
under competitive pressure. Every tiny incremental improvement makes
survival of the owner more likely (all other things being equal),
neutral things make no difference and defects tend to get you killed.

People seem to forget that incremental improvements stack up
exponentially so that 100 1% improvements gets you to 270%.

Why would incremental evolution go through a large number of
iterations to produce a "terrible design" human eye? Each step would
make it worse, and the final, immensely complex, result would be a
competitive disadvantage.

The phrase "why would" implies intent. Evolution is a machine with
objectives (like survival under competition), but not intent.

.<https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK482309/figure/retinal_degeneration.F18

A good book to read on how complex things must be structured (from an
engineering perspective but also addresses biological systems) is "The
Sciences of the Artificial", by Herbert A Simon, which is a classic. The
third edition is available as a pdf for free:

..<https://monoskop.org/images/9/9c/Simon_Herbert_A_The_Sciences_of_the_Artific
ial_3rd_ed.pdf>

..
What is also useful to view are the time-lapse movies of bacteria climbing
their way up an anti-biotic gradient - one can see evolution in action.

..<https://science.sciencemag.org/content/353/6304/1147>

The movies are in the supplementary data:

..<https://science.sciencemag.org/content/suppl/2016/09/07/353.6304.1147.DC1>

Watch them in full screen in a darkened room, so you can see low-contrast
details.

Joe Gwinn
 
On Friday, May 10, 2019 at 1:01:07 AM UTC-4, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2019-05-09, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, May 9, 2019 at 12:31:11 AM UTC-4, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2019-05-08, John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote:
On Wed, 8 May 2019 16:54:08 +0100, Martin Brown
'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:


There is still a lot of hand waving. As in

"it is fruitful to consider the alternative possibility that RNA was
preceded by some other replicating, evolving molecule, just as DNA and
proteins were preceded by RNA."

Is that a fact? In modern life, DNA builds RNA.

Reverse transcriptase does the opposite.

but the RNA for that is found in retroviruses so it could be argued that
it's not "life", weasel words that pomoters of that claim may cling
to.

Really? There are people who claim viruses are not life? I don't know what they think viruses are then.

See "MRS GREN" they do no have many of the properties associated with
living things

Which of those things are not true for viruses? I suppose respiration maybe. But otherwise they do all of the above. You need to look at their full life cycle and not just the spore state.

The fact that they usurp a host cell to do these things doesn't mean they aren't happening. Viruses are parasitic and like many parasites they can not complete their life cycle without infecting the host.

--

Rick C.

++-- Get a 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
On Friday, May 10, 2019 at 2:31:07 AM UTC-4, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2019-05-09, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, May 9, 2019 at 5:26:39 AM UTC-4, Tim Williams wrote:
"Rick C" <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:979b244c-1168-45f3-9661-1952dda50fc1@googlegroups.com...
I recall an evolutionary experiment which I believe was done in an analog
circuit simulation, I don't recall for sure.
snip


It was in an FPGA -- think the goal was to make an oscillator, without any
particular design constraints as we would think. I don't recall if outputs
driving outputs were prohibited, or if it went ahead with such abuse
regardless.

I thought it was an FPGA, but that seemed a bit odd for the resulting circuit features.

As I recall it was a FPGA and it was trained to do some telephony
task, possibly DTMF decoding or V.21 decoding, it was not provided
with an external clock signal, or possibly it was but it didn't
actually use it..

The task was to distinguish 1 and 10 kHz square waves with no clock provided.


The result was very fragile too, AFAIK.

yeah, the bitcode was not portable to other chips from the same batch.

That could have been overcome by letting the design evolve in a population of chips. Same with voltage and temperature. Better yet, do it in a simulation that includes worst case timing. But this was not intended to be a practical technique in any way. They were exploring "intrinsic hardware evolution".

From wikipedia,

The concept was pioneered by Adrian Thompson at the University of Sussex, England, who in 1996 evolved a tone discriminator using fewer than 40 programmable logic gates and no clock signal in a FPGA. This is a remarkably small design for such a device and relied on exploiting peculiarities of the hardware that engineers normally avoid. For example, one group of gates has no logical connection to the rest of the circuit, yet is crucial to its function.[1]

[1] http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.50.9691&rep=rep1&type=pdf

I assume by "gates" they mean LUTs. They gave the circuit 100 XC6216 3 input LUTs to work in. The final circuit used just 16 LUTs along with 5 others which didn't seem to be connected, but still had to remain active for the circuit to operate.

Interesting...

--

Rick C.

++-+ Get a 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
On Thu, 9 May 2019 11:42:12 +0100, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:


I'm not a bit religious and I don't know exactly what your definition
of "creationist" is.

Someone who refuses to accept that evolution driven by natural selection
is quite capable of generating the diversity of life we see around us.

Proof?

Hint: Factor in speed after the Big Bang, relativility and the speed
of time relative to current earth years. I see no conflict.

John
John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address
 
On Friday, May 10, 2019 at 2:45:56 PM UTC-4, Neon John wrote:
On Thu, 9 May 2019 11:42:12 +0100, Martin Brown
'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:


I'm not a bit religious and I don't know exactly what your definition
of "creationist" is.

Someone who refuses to accept that evolution driven by natural selection
is quite capable of generating the diversity of life we see around us.

Proof?

Hint: Factor in speed after the Big Bang, relativility and the speed
of time relative to current earth years. I see no conflict.

I've done some measurements on this and it appears that time has been proceeding at the same rate as long as I've been alive. Essentially it is constant at 1 hour per hour.

--

Rick C.

+++- Get a 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 

Welcome to EDABoard.com

Sponsor

Back
Top