diy thermometer sensitivity

[George Herold]

On Jun 12, 4:11 pm, mrdarr...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, June 12, 2013 12:36:25 PM UTC-7, George Herold wrote:

...





LM71 is nice, too.

+/- 1.5 degrees accuracy - he is trying to control to within 1 degree

(it almost sounds like he is trying to separate methanol from ethanol)

Your guess is pretty darned close

Michael- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Oh, Are you distilling ethanol from water?

Haha, I plead the Fifth.  The closer I can get to the 95% EtOH-H2O azeotrope at around 78 degrees (seems like the exact number depends on which source you read 78.2? 78.3? 78.5? I give up)

I'm pretty sure, (though I don't know for sure... like if I did the
measurement) that the temperature will change with external pressure,
so What's your altitude, and is there a cold front passing through?

I'm thinking of water, where at higher altitudes, you've gotta boil
your eggs for more than 6.5 minutes, for that hard white, soft yellow
that I like.

George H.

, the better.  If I completely lose control and allow it to get as
high as 95 degrees, my column simplifies to a single-stage (allowing
way too much water in the distillate) and that completely defeats the
purpose of having a column.

They never told us how important temperature control was when I was taking the Mass Transfer (eh, Diffusion Theory) class in college.

I tried manually controlling temperature with my sprinkler valve... uhoh, my thermometer reads 85 degrees... FULL OPEN!  Whoops, too much cold feed, now my heating element has stopped boiling and temperature plunges below 78... waiting for the boiler to boil again... drives ya nuts after awhile.

Thanks,

Michael- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

 

[George Herold]

On Jun 12, 5:42 pm, Jon Kirwan <j...@infinitefactors.org> wrote:

On Wed, 12 Jun 2013 13:25:41 -0700 (PDT), mrdarr...@gmail.com
wrote:

http://homedistiller.org/calcs/calc
snip
At 78.15 degrees you see the azeotrope (liquid and vapor
have the exact same composition, 0.9558, or 95.58% ethanol).
That is my target.

I note that even at 78.24C on your web link that the vapour
fraction has dropped 5% already. I'd almost wonder if there
is a vapour sensor system you could arrange to measure in
situ and use this as feedback in closed loop control.

It seems almost easier that way, because you are talking here
about significant differences with only tens of milliKelvins
accuracy (not precision) differences. And, as already
suggested, even if you have a well calibrated temperature
measurement and the sensor(s) is(are) placed optimally, you
may also need atmospheric pressure and relative humidity
figures in there, as well. And tables to use in controlling
things. Or else you control those factors, too.

Thanks for the posts, by the way. I am not a chemist and I
had only vague notions of how difficult this distillation
process might be. I now have a much better appreciation for
it.

Jon

Yeah! That's what I figure.
(mind you I know nothing of chemistry.. but reading about Aezotrops on
wikipediea was fun.)
George H.

 

On Wednesday, June 12, 2013 5:43:18 PM UTC-7, George Herold wrote:

On Jun 12, 4:25 pm, mrdarr...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, June 12, 2013 12:36:25 PM UTC-7, George Herold wrote:



...



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol#Charts



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vapor-Liquid_Equilibrium_Mixture_of....



(What the bleep is an Azeotropic point?)



I assume this graph moves around with external pressure.



George H.



Yeah the charts are pretty.  The tables from Perry's Chemical Engineering Handbook are probably more useful in this context, however.



http://homedistiller.org/calcs/calc



Go down to "Equilibrium Data", Mass Fraction (g/g), and Vapour .



At 78.15 degrees you see the azeotrope (liquid and vapor have the exact same composition, 0.9558, or 95.58% ethanol).  That is my target.



As temperature rises a bit you see the vapor fraction of ethanol drops.  Even just at 79.8 degrees, less than 2 degrees above 78.15, the ethanol composition has dropped to 83%.  So the dessicant step later on has to work that much harder to make that ethanol dry.  (Trying to make a fuel here, not planning to drink it.)  As temperature rises to 95.5 degrees, well, you basically just made a single-stage distiller.  A beer mix will distill at around 95 degrees.  It's about 5% ethanol.  The vapor will be 34% ethanol or so, not quite concentrated enough to catch fire with a match.



How do you measure the ethanol fraction? (density?)

For now I go by temperature, and whether it passes my "flame test" (put about a mL in a saucer and see if it ignites). Yeah density works too, but I collect so little, maybe 10 mL per half-hour.

Seems to me you need to feed that 'signal' back to the thermal control

loop.



Say, isn't it legal to distill some of your own hooch in the US?

Maybe you need a permit/ license?

Dunno, for the tiny (mL) volumes I'm making.

I saw maggots growing in my fermentation tank. No way I'm drinking that stuff.

M

 

On Wednesday, June 12, 2013 5:37:05 PM UTC-7, George Herold wrote:

On Jun 12, 4:11 pm, mrdarr...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, June 12, 2013 12:36:25 PM UTC-7, George Herold wrote:



...











LM71 is nice, too.



+/- 1.5 degrees accuracy - he is trying to control to within 1 degree



(it almost sounds like he is trying to separate methanol from ethanol)



Your guess is pretty darned close



Michael- Hide quoted text -



- Show quoted text -



Oh, Are you distilling ethanol from water?



Haha, I plead the Fifth.  The closer I can get to the 95% EtOH-H2O azeotrope at around 78 degrees (seems like the exact number depends on which source you read 78.2? 78.3? 78.5? I give up)



I'm pretty sure, (though I don't know for sure... like if I did the

measurement) that the temperature will change with external pressure,

so What's your altitude, and is there a cold front passing through?



I'm thinking of water, where at higher altitudes, you've gotta boil

your eggs for more than 6.5 minutes, for that hard white, soft yellow

that I like.



George H.

Pretty close to sea level, within 80 ft or so

Yeah pressure variations look interesting too... I can easily get lost in the details, and I do (just look at this thread!)

M

 

[Jon Kirwan]

On Wed, 12 Jun 2013 16:49:37 -0700 (PDT), mrdarrett@gmail.com
wrote:

Oh... if it for human consumption, be VERY careful. Typical
yeast fermentation produces byproducts in small amounts:
methanol (causes blindness and death), and "fusel oils" such
as butanol (which make excellent vehicle fuels by the way -
better than ethanol). If I understand it correctly, the
folks who make vodka, etc. know from experience to discard a
certain amount of the first distillate liquid, which contain
these. And they use batch stills... if you see "triple
distilled" then you guessed it, they distilled the liquid
three times...

A homemade continuous column would NOT remove the methanol
and fusel oils, so be very careful.

How much do you need? Might be more efficient to stock up
now before the apocalypse. (Which could be anything...
giant earthquake in Seattle... some geologists think that
could happen... Yellowstone blowing up... North Korea
getting lucky...)

Hehe. I think 250 gallons would be enough to keep in storage,
I suppose. Might be the best way to go. I could set up an
above ground 250 made of food-grade steel and store it there.
I just don't like that much ethanol in one (explosive) place.
And I'm not sure what products might form over time, inside.
(I remember vividly a refrigerator door blowing off the
refrigerator in front of my face when just barely being
opened, due to a small can of ethyl ether exploding.
Afterwards, I learned about what products gradually develop
inside and that I shouldn't keep ethyl ether for longer than
about 6 months, to be sure about it. Each molecule and
storage method leads to different results, of course, but I'm
a little uncomfortable about 250 gallons of long-term stored
ethyl alcohol. I'd rather distill to need and merely maintain
that equipment than store the stuff for the "apocalypse." I
also prefer to learn to fish, than to be given fish,1 in such
cases.

I'm already aware of methyl alcohol contamination problems,
though I'm NOT well aware of how best to deal with it. That's
something else I will need to gather up, I suppose. Same with
the other alcohol byproducts, such as amyl alcohol. I will
have to learn how to both test for and remove them if I ever
get started on something like this. I'm dragging my feet
because there are so many other pressing issues and I don't
really like betting on horrible disasters in my future. I
don't mind the learning process, though, which is why I was
so interested here. Learning goes into my head, takes up no
space, keeps for a long time, doesn't go stale, and can get
brought into use when needed. Actual physical stuff costs
money, takes up room, can get broken or lost, needs
maintenance, etc.... even when it isn't needed or being used.

But my wife may want me to at least "demonstrate" some
capability here, someday. I simple chem lab experiment I can
do to show that I can get from A to Z, if needed someday.
Then I can just drop it and wait until "the apocalypse"
happens, if ever. And I will like knowing how, anyway. So I'm
not opposed. But you have taught me well just how much is
involved even doing just that little bit, so I will be
spending more time learning before I go jump off this cliff,
for sure.

When I decided to make rocket fuels as a teenager, I spent
many many hours studying chemistry manufacturing books on the
5th floor of our local 4yr university's library before taking
on ANY of the fuels at home. I never had a single dangerous
event take place. And I made mercury fulminate,
nitroglycerin, potassium nitrate and sugar glass, used
potassium chlorates (still have some), potassium perchlorates
(also still have some), picric acid, and you name it almost
(gunpowder, of course.) Made lots of fireworks, including
exploding rocket flares. Just getting a handle on making the
potassium nitrate and sugar melts required careful study, as
it needed to be melted at higher than 300C but had a flash
point at anywhere above about 400C. To achieve that on my
meager budget, I had to discover that H2SO4 boils around the
right temperature for my project and to set up a condensing
double boiler to avoid "hot spots" that might cause an
explosion. But of course I also had to worry about what might
happen, anyway, and if I were anywhere near an exploding
beaker (I used a florence flask and beaker system) of pure,
very hot H2SO4. So I used sand bags to protect me. Worst
moment of this experience was having to leave that protection
long enough to remove the florence flask (I hadn't figured
out an automated way I could afford, then.) I moved quickly,
of course.

I will take far less chances now and do far more research
first. And I can afford better arrangements, too.

I think I'll enjoy this experience even more, now that I
realize just how interesting it really is. It's harder, but
much more interesting and educational than I'd imagined
before.

Jon

 

[Fred Bartoli]

Le Wed, 12 Jun 2013 18:41:11 -0700, mrdarrett a ĂŠcrit:

On Wednesday, June 12, 2013 5:43:18 PM UTC-7, George Herold wrote:
On Jun 12, 4:25 pm, mrdarr...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, June 12, 2013 12:36:25 PM UTC-7, George Herold wrote:



...



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol#Charts



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vapor-
Liquid_Equilibrium_Mixture_of...



(What the bleep is an Azeotropic point?)



I assume this graph moves around with external pressure.



George H.



Yeah the charts are pretty.  The tables from Perry's Chemical
Engineering Handbook are probably more useful in this context,
however.



http://homedistiller.org/calcs/calc



Go down to "Equilibrium Data", Mass Fraction (g/g), and Vapour .



At 78.15 degrees you see the azeotrope (liquid and vapor have the
exact same composition, 0.9558, or 95.58% ethanol).  That is my
target.



As temperature rises a bit you see the vapor fraction of ethanol
drops.  Even just at 79.8 degrees, less than 2 degrees above 78.15,
the ethanol composition has dropped to 83%.  So the dessicant step
later on has to work that much harder to make that ethanol dry.
 (Trying to make a fuel here, not planning to drink it.)  As
temperature rises to 95.5 degrees, well, you basically just made a
single-stage distiller.  A beer mix will distill at around 95
degrees.  It's about 5% ethanol.  The vapor will be 34% ethanol or
so, not quite concentrated enough to catch fire with a match.



How do you measure the ethanol fraction? (density?)


For now I go by temperature, and whether it passes my "flame test" (put
about a mL in a saucer and see if it ignites). Yeah density works too,
but I collect so little, maybe 10 mL per half-hour.



Seems to me you need to feed that 'signal' back to the thermal control

loop.



Say, isn't it legal to distill some of your own hooch in the US?

Maybe you need a permit/ license?


Dunno, for the tiny (mL) volumes I'm making.

I saw maggots growing in my fermentation tank. No way I'm drinking that
stuff.

Sure, but then you could eat that



--
Thanks,
Fred.

 

On Thursday, June 13, 2013 12:10:38 AM UTC-7, Jon Kirwan wrote:

....

How much do you need? Might be more efficient to stock up

now before the apocalypse. (Which could be anything...

giant earthquake in Seattle... some geologists think that

could happen... Yellowstone blowing up... North Korea

getting lucky...)



Hehe. I think 250 gallons would be enough to keep in storage,

I suppose. Might be the best way to go. I could set up an

above ground 250 made of food-grade steel and store it there.

That much, huh! Ok.

I just don't like that much ethanol in one (explosive) place.

And I'm not sure what products might form over time, inside.

Hmm... I'm not sure either. If it's 100% ethanol, airtight, I can't imagine any bugs being able to grow in that...

(I remember vividly a refrigerator door blowing off the

refrigerator in front of my face when just barely being

opened, due to a small can of ethyl ether exploding.

Afterwards, I learned about what products gradually develop

inside and that I shouldn't keep ethyl ether for longer than

about 6 months, to be sure about it. Each molecule and

Ah yes, ether is a special case. Our Organic Chemistry professor warned us that ether forms explosive shock-sensitive peroxides over time. A can of ether at a university lab killed a few medical students, IIRC.

storage method leads to different results, of course, but I'm

a little uncomfortable about 250 gallons of long-term stored

ethyl alcohol. I'd rather distill to need and merely maintain

that equipment than store the stuff for the "apocalypse." I

also prefer to learn to fish, than to be given fish,1 in such

cases.

Commendable.

I'm already aware of methyl alcohol contamination problems,

though I'm NOT well aware of how best to deal with it. That's

something else I will need to gather up, I suppose. Same with

the other alcohol byproducts, such as amyl alcohol. I will

have to learn how to both test for and remove them if I ever

get started on something like this. I'm dragging my feet

because there are so many other pressing issues and I don't

really like betting on horrible disasters in my future. I

don't mind the learning process, though, which is why I was

so interested here. Learning goes into my head, takes up no

space, keeps for a long time, doesn't go stale, and can get

brought into use when needed. Actual physical stuff costs

money, takes up room, can get broken or lost, needs

maintenance, etc.... even when it isn't needed or being used.

Yeah. Oh, and I was telling my buddies, once Obamacare kicks in there will be a lot of unhappy people, so maybe that's apocalypse enough for ya. (Riots, riot police, possible martial law...)

But my wife may want me to at least "demonstrate" some

capability here, someday. I simple chem lab experiment I can

do to show that I can get from A to Z, if needed someday.

Then I can just drop it and wait until "the apocalypse"

happens, if ever. And I will like knowing how, anyway. So I'm

not opposed. But you have taught me well just how much is

involved even doing just that little bit, so I will be

spending more time learning before I go jump off this cliff,

for sure.



When I decided to make rocket fuels as a teenager, I spent

many many hours studying chemistry manufacturing books on the

5th floor of our local 4yr university's library before taking

on ANY of the fuels at home. I never had a single dangerous

event take place. And I made mercury fulminate,

nitroglycerin, potassium nitrate and sugar glass, used

potassium chlorates (still have some), potassium perchlorates

(also still have some), picric acid, and you name it almost

(gunpowder, of course.) Made lots of fireworks, including

exploding rocket flares. Just getting a handle on making the

potassium nitrate and sugar melts required careful study, as

it needed to be melted at higher than 300C but had a flash

point at anywhere above about 400C. To achieve that on my

meager budget, I had to discover that H2SO4 boils around the

right temperature for my project and to set up a condensing

double boiler to avoid "hot spots" that might cause an

explosion. But of course I also had to worry about what might

happen, anyway, and if I were anywhere near an exploding

beaker (I used a florence flask and beaker system) of pure,

very hot H2SO4. So I used sand bags to protect me. Worst

moment of this experience was having to leave that protection

long enough to remove the florence flask (I hadn't figured

out an automated way I could afford, then.) I moved quickly,

of course.

That's amazing! You could create some jobs here in the USA with that knowledge! (Are you sure you went into the right field? Hahaha)

I will take far less chances now and do far more research

first. And I can afford better arrangements, too.



I think I'll enjoy this experience even more, now that I

realize just how interesting it really is. It's harder, but

much more interesting and educational than I'd imagined

before.



Jon

Yup.

Michael

 

[Jon Kirwan]

On Wed, 12 Jun 2013 17:43:18 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
<gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:

snip
Say, isn't it legal to distill some of your own hooch in the US?
Maybe you need a permit/ license?

I did a little informal reading on the web about this
question (as regards the US, of course.) So take my tentative
conclusions with a huge grain of internet salt.

It appears that federal law trumps state law (from what I
gather) and rules over this issue. Because of political
pressures, beer and wine makers were able to secure
exceptions under federal law for making home brews and wines.

Taxes on beer and wine are low, compared to taxes on
distilled liquors, I gather. So it may also be that it was
less of a loss for Congress' tax collection revenue stream
allowing that, as well, and so easier to secure exceptions.
Taxes on distilled liquors produced billions of dollars more
tax revenue, I gather, and arguments about the potential harm
from methanol and amyl alcohol and lead poisoning (metal
parts welded together, etc, assuming that a moonshiner would
use cheaper, more readily available materials instead of
getting appropriate laboratory equipment and/or teflon and
food grade stainless) allowed legislators to justify keeping
a strong hold on the tax revenues for hard liquors.

I found nothing yet about port, which is a fortified type of
usually blended wines. It may have it's own exemptions (in
either direction) on this issue.

What I did find is that if you are a "moonshiner" then you
need to secure at least one federal permit and pay taxes on
what you produce, even if only for personal use. I would
assume that if you sell any of it, that would be at least one
more permit, probably more fees, and probably inspections and
fees for that and who knows what else (appropriate bribes,
etc?)

Basically, if you distill for food purposes, you need a
federal permit. I don't know about "fuel purposes," though.
Congress appears to have given away huge subsidies for
ehthanol production for fuels, while insisting on retaining
huge tax revenues for food ethanol distillation. So it's
possible the laws are quite different. Or, it is possible
that to avoid people making "fuel" which they then drink,
that they've done something to close that loop, too. I have
come up with nothing on that particular topic (mostly because
I didn't dwell on it.)

Jon

 

[Jon Kirwan]

I just read that you can own a still and process alcohol, but
only if you're using the alcohol as fuel AND you have a
permit from the ATF.

Jon

 

[Jon Kirwan]

I also just read that in 2007 the feds collected an excise
tax of $2.14 for every 750 ml bottle of 80-proof spirits.
This compared with $0.21 for a bottle of wine (of 14% or less
ethanol) and $0.05 for a can of beer. To put some numbers to
it.

Jon

 

[Jon Kirwan]

More discussion here at this .gov site:

http://www.ttb.gov/faqs/genalcohol.shtml

They summarize the situation by saying that it's
"impractical" for a home brewer to produce distilled alcohol
for personal use because of "excise taxes", "extensive
application work", a required "bond" to be posted, owning
adequate equipment for required measurements, suitable tanks
and pipes, providing a separate building for the purposes
(required), detailed record keeping, and regular reporting
all required in 27 CFR Part 19.

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&SID=e4710d90c1807b5d2d00c7396e2d13d4&rgn=div5&view=text&node=27:1.0.1.1.15&idno=27

They add that "spirits may be produced for non-beverage
purposes for fuel use only without payment of tax, but you
also must file an application, receive TTB's approval, and
follow requirements, such as construction, use, records and
reports." I've read elsewhere (Title 27, Part 19, subpart X,
section 19.678) that this also requires a bond to be posted,
though. Not sure about fees yet.

Jon

 

On Wednesday, June 12, 2013 7:07:34 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:

....

What kind of capacitor in parallel with R3?



Ceramic, roughly 0.1 uF, doesn't matter much.

Oh ok thanks!

....

You could software filter to smooth the noise out.



Average blocks of, say, 100 samples. Or make a continuous lowpass filter,



OUT = OUT + (IN - OUT) * K (in floats)



where K is small, like 0.01. In integer math, you can do an arithmetic

right-shift to approximate the multiply. >>7 is like multiplying by 1/128.

That's pretty amazing. Continuous low pass filter, huh? Trying to figure out why it works. Is it something like this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exponential_smoothing

Thanks again for all your help John!

Michael

 

[Jon Kirwan]

On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 14:02:06 -0700 (PDT), mrdarrett@gmail.com
wrote:

snip
I finally found some translations in plain English.

http://www.revenoor.com/pdf/catalog.pdf

"To produce alcohol fuel, the only requirement is a simple
permit issued by the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade
Bureau. It costs nothing and we know of no one ever being
turned down."

That is what I wanted to hear.

This is the site that first inspired me to proceed (they
make ethanol from prison scraps):

http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/id10.html

and here is the form:
http://www.ttb.gov/forms/f511074.pdf

It is rather odd that on Question 11 they would ask for the
capacity. How would I know what the capacity is unless I
build it? Oh well. I can make about 10 mL in about half an
hour. They want a 24-hour period? 0.1 gallons it is, then.
I would put 0.127 but I fear some nitwit will read that as
127 gallons.

But a FREE form? Didn't think such a thing was possible.

Thanks!

Michael

I still think there is a bond required and other
requirements. But I guess the form is free.

I remember seeing a "one gallon" capacity threshold being
mentioned somewhere in my searches. I think here, under the
heading of "Americans":

http://homedistiller.org/intro/legal

They say, "Americans can own a still, but it must be no
larger than 1 gallon, and may only be used for water
purification or the extraction of essential oils from
plants." My purpose is exactly for the extraction of
essential oils.

This legal morass is getting complicated to navigate. Cripes.

Jon

 

[Jon Kirwan]

On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 14:12:46 -0700, I wrote:

On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 14:02:06 -0700 (PDT), mrdarrett@gmail.com
wrote:

snip
I finally found some translations in plain English.

http://www.revenoor.com/pdf/catalog.pdf

"To produce alcohol fuel, the only requirement is a simple
permit issued by the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade
Bureau. It costs nothing and we know of no one ever being
turned down."

That is what I wanted to hear.

This is the site that first inspired me to proceed (they
make ethanol from prison scraps):

http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/id10.html

and here is the form:
http://www.ttb.gov/forms/f511074.pdf

It is rather odd that on Question 11 they would ask for the
capacity. How would I know what the capacity is unless I
build it? Oh well. I can make about 10 mL in about half an
hour. They want a 24-hour period? 0.1 gallons it is, then.
I would put 0.127 but I fear some nitwit will read that as
127 gallons.

But a FREE form? Didn't think such a thing was possible.

Thanks!

Michael

I still think there is a bond required and other
requirements. But I guess the form is free.

I remember seeing a "one gallon" capacity threshold being
mentioned somewhere in my searches. I think here, under the
heading of "Americans":

http://homedistiller.org/intro/legal

They say, "Americans can own a still, but it must be no
larger than 1 gallon, and may only be used for water
purification or the extraction of essential oils from
plants." My purpose is exactly for the extraction of
essential oils.

This legal morass is getting complicated to navigate. Cripes.

Jon

See:

http://www.ttb.gov/spirits/faq.shtml#s3

"Small stills (with a cubic distilling capacity of a gallon
or less) that are used for laboratory purposes or for
distilling water or other non-alcoholic materials are exempt
from our rules."

Not my case since I wouldn't be distilling water and wouldn't
be distilling non-alcoholic materials."

"If you buy a small still and use it to distill water or
extract essential oils by steam or water extraction methods,
you are not subject to TTB requirements."

Not my case, as I'm not distilling water or essential oils by
steam or water extraction." I'm using ethanol for the
extraction.

"If you produce essential oils by a solvent method and you
get alcohol as a by-product of your process, we consider that
distilling. Even though you are using and recovering
purchased alcohol, you are separating the alcohol from a
mixture -distilling."

Which suggests to me that even if I go buy alcohol from a
state licensed liquor store, pay all relevant retail taxes
for it, and then use it in an extraction process that leaves
the alcohol in the byproduct (tincture), then I need a
license? Even when there is no distillation going on, at
all??? Just the cold temperature use of alcohol for
extraction?

Jon

 

[Jon Kirwan]

On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 15:10:19 -0700, I wrote:

On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 14:12:46 -0700, I wrote:

On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 14:02:06 -0700 (PDT), mrdarrett@gmail.com
wrote:

snip
I finally found some translations in plain English.

http://www.revenoor.com/pdf/catalog.pdf

"To produce alcohol fuel, the only requirement is a simple
permit issued by the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade
Bureau. It costs nothing and we know of no one ever being
turned down."

That is what I wanted to hear.

This is the site that first inspired me to proceed (they
make ethanol from prison scraps):

http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/id10.html

and here is the form:
http://www.ttb.gov/forms/f511074.pdf

It is rather odd that on Question 11 they would ask for the
capacity. How would I know what the capacity is unless I
build it? Oh well. I can make about 10 mL in about half an
hour. They want a 24-hour period? 0.1 gallons it is, then.
I would put 0.127 but I fear some nitwit will read that as
127 gallons.

But a FREE form? Didn't think such a thing was possible.

Thanks!

Michael

I still think there is a bond required and other
requirements. But I guess the form is free.

I remember seeing a "one gallon" capacity threshold being
mentioned somewhere in my searches. I think here, under the
heading of "Americans":

http://homedistiller.org/intro/legal

They say, "Americans can own a still, but it must be no
larger than 1 gallon, and may only be used for water
purification or the extraction of essential oils from
plants." My purpose is exactly for the extraction of
essential oils.

This legal morass is getting complicated to navigate. Cripes.

Jon

See:

http://www.ttb.gov/spirits/faq.shtml#s3

"Small stills (with a cubic distilling capacity of a gallon
or less) that are used for laboratory purposes or for
distilling water or other non-alcoholic materials are exempt
from our rules."

Not my case since I wouldn't be distilling water and wouldn't
be distilling non-alcoholic materials."

"If you buy a small still and use it to distill water or
extract essential oils by steam or water extraction methods,
you are not subject to TTB requirements."

Not my case, as I'm not distilling water or essential oils by
steam or water extraction." I'm using ethanol for the
extraction.

"If you produce essential oils by a solvent method and you
get alcohol as a by-product of your process, we consider that
distilling. Even though you are using and recovering
purchased alcohol, you are separating the alcohol from a
mixture -distilling."

Which suggests to me that even if I go buy alcohol from a
state licensed liquor store, pay all relevant retail taxes
for it, and then use it in an extraction process that leaves
the alcohol in the byproduct (tincture), then I need a
license? Even when there is no distillation going on, at
all??? Just the cold temperature use of alcohol for
extraction?

Or maybe this only means if I attempt to extract the alcohol
back out?

Jon

 

On Thursday, June 13, 2013 12:58:24 PM UTC-7, Jon Kirwan wrote:

On Wed, 12 Jun 2013 17:43:18 -0700 (PDT), George Herold

gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:

snip

Say, isn't it legal to distill some of your own hooch in the US?

Maybe you need a permit/ license?



I did a little informal reading on the web about this

question (as regards the US, of course.) So take my tentative

conclusions with a huge grain of internet salt.



It appears that federal law trumps state law (from what I

gather) and rules over this issue. Because of political

pressures, beer and wine makers were able to secure

exceptions under federal law for making home brews and wines.



Taxes on beer and wine are low, compared to taxes on

distilled liquors, I gather. So it may also be that it was

less of a loss for Congress' tax collection revenue stream

allowing that, as well, and so easier to secure exceptions.

Taxes on distilled liquors produced billions of dollars more

tax revenue, I gather, and arguments about the potential harm

from methanol and amyl alcohol and lead poisoning (metal

parts welded together, etc, assuming that a moonshiner would

use cheaper, more readily available materials instead of

getting appropriate laboratory equipment and/or teflon and

food grade stainless) allowed legislators to justify keeping

a strong hold on the tax revenues for hard liquors.



I found nothing yet about port, which is a fortified type of

usually blended wines. It may have it's own exemptions (in

either direction) on this issue.



What I did find is that if you are a "moonshiner" then you

need to secure at least one federal permit and pay taxes on

what you produce, even if only for personal use. I would

assume that if you sell any of it, that would be at least one

more permit, probably more fees, and probably inspections and

fees for that and who knows what else (appropriate bribes,

etc?)



Basically, if you distill for food purposes, you need a

federal permit. I don't know about "fuel purposes," though.

Congress appears to have given away huge subsidies for

ehthanol production for fuels, while insisting on retaining

huge tax revenues for food ethanol distillation. So it's

possible the laws are quite different. Or, it is possible

that to avoid people making "fuel" which they then drink,

that they've done something to close that loop, too. I have

come up with nothing on that particular topic (mostly because

I didn't dwell on it.)



Jon

I did a brief bit of research from ATF last night too, and noticed they classify a Small Plant as <10,000 gallons. No Nano plants producing ~10 mL. Ha. Also saw they need $1,000 posted in bond, I need security around my "plant" to deter theft, inspectors... interesting.

I *had* about 50 mL of >50% ethanol, but when I tried to dry it in a jar of anhydrous magnesium sulfate, to my surprise and horror the MgSO4 absorbed the ethanol as well as the water (liberating quite a bit of heat as it did so), and now it's all a solid mass. In the future I should probably add the MgSO4 slowly into the ethanol, as we did in organic chemistry class decades ago.

Ultimately the ethanol is intended to be an intermediate. If I get it anhydrous I can use it to make biodiesel. So that throws another monkey wrench into the works.

 

On Thursday, June 13, 2013 1:06:49 PM UTC-7, Jon Kirwan wrote:

I also just read that in 2007 the feds collected an excise

tax of $2.14 for every 750 ml bottle of 80-proof spirits.

This compared with $0.21 for a bottle of wine (of 14% or less

ethanol) and $0.05 for a can of beer. To put some numbers to

it.



Jon

I finally found some translations in plain English.

http://www.revenoor.com/pdf/catalog.pdf

"To produce alcohol fuel, the only requirement is a simple permit issued by the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau. It costs nothing and we know of no one ever being turned down."

That is what I wanted to hear.

This is the site that first inspired me to proceed (they make ethanol from prison scraps):

http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/id10.html

and here is the form:
http://www.ttb.gov/forms/f511074.pdf

It is rather odd that on Question 11 they would ask for the capacity. How would I know what the capacity is unless I build it? Oh well. I can make about 10 mL in about half an hour. They want a 24-hour period? 0.1 gallons it is, then. I would put 0.127 but I fear some nitwit will read that as 127 gallons.

But a FREE form? Didn't think such a thing was possible.

Thanks!

Michael

 

On Thursday, June 13, 2013 3:10:19 PM UTC-7, Jon Kirwan wrote:

On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 14:12:46 -0700, I wrote:



On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 14:02:06 -0700 (PDT), mrdarrett@gmail.com

wrote:



snip

I finally found some translations in plain English.



http://www.revenoor.com/pdf/catalog.pdf



"To produce alcohol fuel, the only requirement is a simple

permit issued by the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade

Bureau. It costs nothing and we know of no one ever being

turned down."



That is what I wanted to hear.



This is the site that first inspired me to proceed (they

make ethanol from prison scraps):



http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/id10.html



and here is the form:

http://www.ttb.gov/forms/f511074.pdf



It is rather odd that on Question 11 they would ask for the

capacity. How would I know what the capacity is unless I

build it? Oh well. I can make about 10 mL in about half an

hour. They want a 24-hour period? 0.1 gallons it is, then.

I would put 0.127 but I fear some nitwit will read that as

127 gallons.



But a FREE form? Didn't think such a thing was possible.



Thanks!



Michael



I still think there is a bond required and other

requirements. But I guess the form is free.



I remember seeing a "one gallon" capacity threshold being

mentioned somewhere in my searches. I think here, under the

heading of "Americans":



http://homedistiller.org/intro/legal



They say, "Americans can own a still, but it must be no

larger than 1 gallon, and may only be used for water

purification or the extraction of essential oils from

plants." My purpose is exactly for the extraction of

essential oils.



This legal morass is getting complicated to navigate. Cripes.



Jon



See:



http://www.ttb.gov/spirits/faq.shtml#s3



"Small stills (with a cubic distilling capacity of a gallon

or less) that are used for laboratory purposes or for

distilling water or other non-alcoholic materials are exempt

from our rules."



Not my case since I wouldn't be distilling water and wouldn't

be distilling non-alcoholic materials."



"If you buy a small still and use it to distill water or

extract essential oils by steam or water extraction methods,

you are not subject to TTB requirements."



Not my case, as I'm not distilling water or essential oils by

steam or water extraction." I'm using ethanol for the

extraction.



"If you produce essential oils by a solvent method and you

get alcohol as a by-product of your process, we consider that

distilling. Even though you are using and recovering

purchased alcohol, you are separating the alcohol from a

mixture -distilling."



Which suggests to me that even if I go buy alcohol from a

state licensed liquor store, pay all relevant retail taxes

for it, and then use it in an extraction process that leaves

the alcohol in the byproduct (tincture), then I need a

license? Even when there is no distillation going on, at

all??? Just the cold temperature use of alcohol for

extraction?



Jon

I would simplify it like this:

1. Practice on a lab-scale first

2. If an Apocalypse happens, prosecuting a Mr. Kirwan for alcohol extraction will be the least of the Federal Government's problems.

M

 

On Thursday, June 13, 2013 3:10:19 PM UTC-7, Jon Kirwan wrote:

....

See:



http://www.ttb.gov/spirits/faq.shtml#s3



"Small stills (with a cubic distilling capacity of a gallon

or less) that are used for laboratory purposes or for

distilling water or other non-alcoholic materials are exempt

from our rules."



Not my case since I wouldn't be distilling water and wouldn't

be distilling non-alcoholic materials."

Well, um... "A still is defined as apparatus capable of being used to separate ethyl alcohol from a mixture that contains alcohol. Small stills (with a cubic distilling capacity of a gallon or less) that are used for laboratory purposes or for distilling water or other non-alcoholic materials are exempt from our rules."

No idea what a "cubic distilling capacity" is. Do they mean "volumetric" distilling capacity? Of one gallon per day? Per year? Or does the distiller occupy one gallon of volume?

Just from reading the above, it sounds to me like a laboratory-sized still, even if used for distilling ethanol, is exempt. That makes sense, if only to keep college chemistry labs from sending applications to the bATF.

 

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 12:11:33 -0700 (PDT), mrdarrett@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, June 12, 2013 7:07:34 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:

...

What kind of capacitor in parallel with R3?



Ceramic, roughly 0.1 uF, doesn't matter much.


Oh ok thanks!

...

You could software filter to smooth the noise out.



Average blocks of, say, 100 samples. Or make a continuous lowpass filter,



OUT = OUT + (IN - OUT) * K (in floats)



where K is small, like 0.01. In integer math, you can do an arithmetic

right-shift to approximate the multiply. >>7 is like multiplying by 1/128.



That's pretty amazing. Continuous low pass filter, huh? Trying to figure out why it works. Is it something like this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exponential_smoothing

Thanks again for all your help John!

Michael

Yep. It's a discrete-time model of an RC lowpass filter.

If K is 0.01, then the time constant is 100 times the sample interval. After the
first sample, the output jumps to 1% of the input. The second time, it jumps 1%
*of the ramaining difference*, just like a real resistor-capacitor.




--

John Larkin Highland Technology Inc
www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com

Precision electronic instrumentation
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators
Custom timing and laser controllers
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links
VME analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer
Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators