Digital Television DTV

[John S. Dyson]

In article <40B53506.2DAD3096@removethispacbell.net>,
Joerg <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> writes:

Hi John,

You are right, HDTV support does make a huge difference. Europe has had their bout
with HDTV some time in the 80's. I remember when really expensive sets were sold in
Scandinavia. These were huge and affordable flat screens were not invented yet.

The cost of decoding MPEG2 will decrease significantly, and even

today, a small (34") HDTV isnt' too awful expensive (about the same
price as a premium NTSC set was just a few years ago, even ignoring
inflation.) The problem with the low end CRT
HDTV sets is that some of them have too coarse dot pitch (probably
using PALplus optimized CRTs for taking advantage of volume and cost
reduction), but some of the CRTs look really good.

Figure that historically (up until recently), a really good NTSC
set would have cost about $1-2K. For that same price, you can
now have HDTV.

There is indeed little reason to get an STB for the purpose
of viewing the digital signal with a normal SDTV (even though
the picture is better.) Soon, HDTV will be the 'expected'
quality of TV viewing, and DVD quality will be towards the
low end.

With my normal day-to-day viewing, when watching shows that
I normally see in HDTV, I find it to be disappointing when
the show is only in SDTV. Even the silly Star Trek 'Enterprise'
is more enjoyable in HDTV.

John

 

[Glenn Gundlach]

toor@iquest.net (John S. Dyson) wrote in message news:<c936aq$2e38$1@news.iquest.net>...

In article <40B51263.49FCEF4C@removethispacbell.net>,
Joerg <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> writes:
Hi Paul,

Reading that story gave me some goose pimples. $400 to $650 for a set top box?
Ouch! That's more than what I paid for the whole TV set.

I guess the Europeans are leading on this one then. They can buy OFDM boxes for
a fraction of that.

In the US, our set-top boxes have to deal with the HDTV MPEG2 decoding,
which does require significantly more horsepower than the typical
SDTV applications (there is very little HDTV in Europe.) Few terrestrial
STBs in Europe really support HDTV.

The biggest cost difference between the US technology and the European
technology is the necessary support in the US for HDTV. Even if we
had a STB that had only SD outputs, it would still have to decode HDTV
so as to be able to display all programs.

John

But how much more complicated is this compared to a $35 DVD player? No
servos, lenses or lasers in the STB. I expect to see $50 STBs when DTV
is in full production. There are currently 1200+ operating stations so
it IS being taken seriously.

http://www.nab.org/newsroom/issues/digitaltv/dtvstations.asp

Comparisons I've seen show OFDM as a little more tolerant of multipath
at the expense of bit rate. My 8VSB receiver works just fine but WAS
too danged much money.

GG

 

[Paul Hovnanian P.E.]

"John S. Dyson" wrote:

[snip]

The biggest cost difference between the US technology and the European
technology is the necessary support in the US for HDTV. Even if we
had a STB that had only SD outputs, it would still have to decode HDTV
so as to be able to display all programs.

What's the cost difference for an SDTV-capable MPEG decoder and one that
can handle HTDV? I'd guess that its only a matter of a higher clock rate
(symbol rate) and more frame buffer RAM.

--
Paul Hovnanian mailtoaul@Hovnanian.com
note to spammers: a Washington State resident
------------------------------------------------------------------
Aleph-null bottles of beer on the wall
Aleph-null bottles of beer,
You take one down
and pass it around
Aleph-null bottles of beer on the wall

 

[John S. Dyson]

In article <acb22b57.0405261946.358dd4c7@posting.google.com>,
stratus46@yahoo.com (Glenn Gundlach) writes:

toor@iquest.net (John S. Dyson) wrote in message news:<c936aq$2e38$1@news.iquest.net>...
In article <40B51263.49FCEF4C@removethispacbell.net>,
Joerg <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> writes:
Hi Paul,

Reading that story gave me some goose pimples. $400 to $650 for a set top box?
Ouch! That's more than what I paid for the whole TV set.

I guess the Europeans are leading on this one then. They can buy OFDM boxes for
a fraction of that.

In the US, our set-top boxes have to deal with the HDTV MPEG2 decoding,
which does require significantly more horsepower than the typical
SDTV applications (there is very little HDTV in Europe.) Few terrestrial
STBs in Europe really support HDTV.

The biggest cost difference between the US technology and the European
technology is the necessary support in the US for HDTV. Even if we
had a STB that had only SD outputs, it would still have to decode HDTV
so as to be able to display all programs.

John

But how much more complicated is this compared to a $35 DVD player? No
servos, lenses or lasers in the STB. I expect to see $50 STBs when DTV
is in full production. There are currently 1200+ operating stations so
it IS being taken seriously.

The differences in the decoders is significant (current HDTV

decoder chipsets are well over $50 in qty -- ignoring any modulation
scheme issues.) Don't confuse 8VSB with the cost of HDTV!!!
(The price correlation between unsubsidized US HDTV STBS vs other
STBs that don't do HDTV or are subsidized/manditory high volume
might cause some mistaken conclusions.)

Comparisons I've seen show OFDM as a little more tolerant of multipath
at the expense of bit rate. My 8VSB receiver works just fine but WAS
too danged much money.

8VSB really doesn't cause much impact on the cost of your STB --

the HDTV MPEG2 decoders are cost intensive hardware. (For
HDTV type MPEG2, it probably isn't unreasonable to consider
heatsinks, but for SDTV the technology is much less intensive.)

John

 

[John S. Dyson]

In article <40B56888.8C3395E2@hovnanian.com>,
"Paul Hovnanian P.E." <Paul@Hovnanian.com> writes:

"John S. Dyson" wrote:

[snip]

The biggest cost difference between the US technology and the European
technology is the necessary support in the US for HDTV. Even if we
had a STB that had only SD outputs, it would still have to decode HDTV
so as to be able to display all programs.

What's the cost difference for an SDTV-capable MPEG decoder and one that
can handle HTDV? I'd guess that its only a matter of a higher clock rate
(symbol rate) and more frame buffer RAM.

I have heard the today's lowest cost HDTV decoder capable of ATSC might

be around $75-$85 in large qty. More than likely, current production
STBs have more expensive chipsets.

When you scale things like MPEG2, I would expect for the complexity
to scale higher than linear based upon the pixels. Wild
assed guess: greater than Nh * Nv... So, comparing 1920x1080 vs.
720x480, it would probably be at least 6x the CPU speed (maybe a
little less, maybe a little more.) Memory size is probably
approx linear. Encoding probably requires significantly higher
than linear scaling.

Considering the current product is probably using 2-3yrs old technology
(at least), this would be the era of fast P3s running at 866MHz.

John

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Wed, 26 May 2004 21:50:34 GMT) it happened Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in
<40B51263.49FCEF4C@removethispacbell.net>:

Hi Paul,

Reading that story gave me some goose pimples. $400 to $650 for a set top box?
Ouch! That's more than what I paid for the whole TV set.

I guess the Europeans are leading on this one then. They can buy OFDM boxes for
a fraction of that.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
Hey, I hope you noticed that article was from jan 2003!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JP

 

[Joerg]

Hi John,

Yes, when you are willing to spend $1k to $2k that holds true. But being a cheapskate
when it comes to TV I grudgingly spent about $250 seven years ago for a 25" set and that
was it. Well, plus another $100 or so in parts to make an in-house distribution network
so we can watch VCR tapes playing on the living room VCR anywhere else.

After moving here we didn't even have a TV for about 8 months and weren't missing it. The
only reason I bought one back then was that it became winter and we wanted to see the
weather forecast. No broadband Internet here back then.

DTV makes me wonder when the time will come where it is rendered obsolete by broadband
Internet. DSL or cable modem speeds today don't cut it for MPEG but what if fibers become
ubiquitous some day? Or some more clever coax net with a fiber backbone running the
streets (that's what we already have for DSL around here). Then we could see HDTV quality
on a $250 monitor from our favorite wholesaler.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

[Joerg]

Hi Jan,

I did see the date of 2003 but I haven't seen any cheaper stuff show up on the
shelves yet at the usual stores. Actually, there isn't much DTV set top gear at all
on the shelves to begin with, eventhough several stations began transmissions. Which
makes me wonder.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

[Glenn Gundlach]

toor@iquest.net (John S. Dyson) wrote in message news:<c93psh$2jil$2@news.iquest.net>...

In article <acb22b57.0405261946.358dd4c7@posting.google.com>,
stratus46@yahoo.com (Glenn Gundlach) writes:
toor@iquest.net (John S. Dyson) wrote in message news:<c936aq$2e38$1@news.iquest.net>...
In article <40B51263.49FCEF4C@removethispacbell.net>,
Joerg <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> writes:
Hi Paul,

Reading that story gave me some goose pimples. $400 to $650 for a set top box?
Ouch! That's more than what I paid for the whole TV set.

I guess the Europeans are leading on this one then. They can buy OFDM boxes for
a fraction of that.

In the US, our set-top boxes have to deal with the HDTV MPEG2 decoding,
which does require significantly more horsepower than the typical
SDTV applications (there is very little HDTV in Europe.) Few terrestrial
STBs in Europe really support HDTV.

The biggest cost difference between the US technology and the European
technology is the necessary support in the US for HDTV. Even if we
had a STB that had only SD outputs, it would still have to decode HDTV
so as to be able to display all programs.

John

But how much more complicated is this compared to a $35 DVD player? No
servos, lenses or lasers in the STB. I expect to see $50 STBs when DTV
is in full production. There are currently 1200+ operating stations so
it IS being taken seriously.

The differences in the decoders is significant (current HDTV
decoder chipsets are well over $50 in qty -- ignoring any modulation
scheme issues.) Don't confuse 8VSB with the cost of HDTV!!!
(The price correlation between unsubsidized US HDTV STBS vs other
STBs that don't do HDTV or are subsidized/manditory high volume
might cause some mistaken conclusions.)


Comparisons I've seen show OFDM as a little more tolerant of multipath
at the expense of bit rate. My 8VSB receiver works just fine but WAS
too danged much money.

8VSB really doesn't cause much impact on the cost of your STB --
the HDTV MPEG2 decoders are cost intensive hardware. (For
HDTV type MPEG2, it probably isn't unreasonable to consider
heatsinks, but for SDTV the technology is much less intensive.)

John

True but in 1983 I bought a $900 CD player-- discounted to only $750.
Saw some at Target recently for $12.99 with your choice of blue or
black. First Dolby B decoders that Advent used in '73 were $5 per
machine. Prices will drop-- I'm betting a lot.
GG

 

[John S. Dyson]

In article <40B63B88.FE4AC715@removethispacbell.net>,
Joerg <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> writes:

Hi John,

Yes, when you are willing to spend $1k to $2k that holds true. But being a cheapskate
when it comes to TV I grudgingly spent about $250 seven years ago for a 25" set and that
was it. Well, plus another $100 or so in parts to make an in-house distribution network
so we can watch VCR tapes playing on the living room VCR anywhere else.

Now I understand you, and you make a VERY GOOD point .

DTV makes me wonder when the time will come where it is rendered obsolete by broadband
Internet. DSL or cable modem speeds today don't cut it for MPEG but what if fibers become
ubiquitous some day? Or some more clever coax net with a fiber backbone running the
streets (that's what we already have for DSL around here). Then we could see HDTV quality
on a $250 monitor from our favorite wholesaler.

I'd like to see the entire last mile problem solved, with mobile bidirectional

data (and perhaps even point to point SDTV.) OTA is one way to solve the
last mile problem, but I agree that broadband internet is also interesting.

John

 

[Joerg]

Hi John,

Yes, the last mile is a problem. But in our area they went all out and fibered many streets and
biz parks. Depending on what you are willing to pay you can even get a fiber connection which
really roars. At least in the biz park. Most folks use DSL though, and cable modem.

So it's actually not a last mile anymore but more like a "last few hundred feet". New
construction has channels so they can pull fiber or coax to the trunk line if that becomes a
market. It's only a supply and demand issue, not a technical one anymore.

Bidirectional is nice but the majority of users just wants blazing speed to their premises, the
other direction isn't so important to them.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Thu, 27 May 2004 19:02:07 GMT) it happened Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in
<40B63C69.28F8DBD5@removethispacbell.net>:

Hi Jan,

I did see the date of 2003 but I haven't seen any cheaper stuff show up on the
shelves yet at the usual stores. Actually, there isn't much DTV set top gear at all
on the shelves to begin with, eventhough several stations began transmissions. Which
makes me wonder.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

I dunno, you can have endless discussions about these things.
90 seconds www.google.com with search for
'ATSC tuner price settop'
Find me one for 249$ on ebay (HDTV settop box).

http://electronics.listings.ebay.com/Televisions_HDTV-Receivers-Tuners_W0QQfromZR4QQsacategoryZ61396QQsasaleclassZ2QQsbrbinZtQQsocmdZListingItemList
So, if you want one, spend some time with google perhaps.
JP

 

[Joerg]

Hi Jan,

Yes, you can certainly find a deal on the web or ebay and then hope that it is from a reliable source. But unless these boxes are available at the local
markets terrestrial DTV isn't going to be successful. I don't know anyone in our neighborhood who can receive it.

However, this may be water under the bridge since most households here in the US are either connected to satellite TV or cable. For them the box issue
is transparent because you simply get one sent to you if you sign up for a certain package and usually a minimum number of months. The others, like us,
usually don't care much about TV. By the time the FCC mandated switch to digital has been completed I am sure (or at least hoping) there will be some
bare bones non-HDTV capable boxes available at Radio Shack.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

[Joel Kolstad]

Joerg <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Yes, the last mile is a problem. But in our area they went all out and
fibered many streets and biz parks. Depending on what you are willing to
pay you can even get a fiber connection which really roars. At least in
the biz park. Most folks use DSL though, and cable modem.

I've always found it interesting that presumably it has been cost effective
the "first time around" to string up phone line and cable TV lines all
through that 'last mile' (especially cable TV, which typically had to deal
with the buildings already being erected in back there in the '70s/'80s when
most neighborhoods were getting wires), yet supposedly it isn't "this time
around" for fiber. Can anyone explain this?

And there's supposedly a frighteningly large amount of dark fiber out there
right now... installed during the Internet boom of the in anticipation of a
bandwidth crunch that never really came.

---Joel Kolstad

 

[Terry Given]

"Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message
news:40B652F3.56E1447C@removethispacbell.net...

Hi John,

Yes, the last mile is a problem. But in our area they went all out and
fibered many streets and
biz parks. Depending on what you are willing to pay you can even get a
fiber connection which
really roars. At least in the biz park. Most folks use DSL though, and
cable modem.

So it's actually not a last mile anymore but more like a "last few hundred
feet". New
construction has channels so they can pull fiber or coax to the trunk line
if that becomes a
market. It's only a supply and demand issue, not a technical one anymore.

Bidirectional is nice but the majority of users just wants blazing speed
to their premises, the
other direction isn't so important to them.

Regards, Joerg

Funny story: Before I found my farmlet in Te Aroha, I rented a house in
Hamilton, NZ. It was brand new, in a brand new suburb. Telecom had used
fiber in about half of the new subdivision, and copper in the other half.
Houses on fiber had a fiber-to-wire box hiding somewhere under the footpath
(sidewalk . All those houses CANT get ADSL, because its a copper-only
service. doh. Luckily I had copper. It did seem odd though, that these
people couldnt get broadband internet access because they *only* had a
fiber-optic connection.

Cheers
Terry

 

[Jan Panteltje]

Hi Joerg
Digital HDTV PC cards for the US are now also available:
http://www.digitalconnection.com/Products/Video/fusion3qam.asp

JP

 

[Joerg]

Hi Jan,

Thanks. Seems prices do start to come down even here in the US. $199
plus $19 for the remote isn't bad at all.

The only thing you need with this one is a PC in the living room.
Despite all hype in the media this hasn't happened yet. It would have to
be a silent PC where you can't hear fans or hard drives. Most of all,
one that does not crash which means it cannot run the usual consumer
grade op systems. Technically possible but the industry has to get that
into their heads first.

Now we'd need a module like that with an integrated converter and
modulator to bring it all into a regular TV, or at least with a standard
output that the new screens can take without the need to have a PC in
between. That should not be a big engineering deal either.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

[PaulCsouls]

On Sun, 30 May 2004 16:29:42 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hi Joerg
Digital HDTV PC cards for the US are now also available:
http://www.digitalconnection.com/Products/Video/fusion3qam.asp

JP

Yes but their set top box is $500.00 and back ordered.

Paul

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Mon, 31 May 2004 16:17:56 GMT) it happened PaulCsouls
<paulcsouls@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
<9gmmb0loavsqhkcagquuf50upm3reabsvk@4ax.com>:

On Sun, 30 May 2004 16:29:42 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hi Joerg
Digital HDTV PC cards for the US are now also available:
http://www.digitalconnection.com/Products/Video/fusion3qam.asp

JP

Yes but their set top box is $500.00 and back ordered.

Paul
Not exactly sure I get your point here?

As far as settop (standalone) box versus PC(I) card goes, I use a PCI card
for DTV, and the PC is always on as server anyways... RGB out for those
that need it... recording directly to harddisk, can watch on monitor too,
if the noise is a problem you could put the PC in a cabinet or other room even,
I know in Europe many people have networked (ethernet) computers, and a cheap
old box for the DTV (Linux VDR), something to do with decrypt too, nice to have
the PC, can write your own soft, new PC take card with you if need be...
JP

 

[Joerg]

Hi Jan,

Paul's point is, I guess, that most consumers would want a set top box
that simply enables them to keep watching TV on their usual sets when it
all goes digital. Some have invested considerable money into their large
screen analog sets and they don't want to let that go to waste.

A PC is not really a solution for many. There is no PC in the living
room and they don't want to place one there. Neither do they want to
have that PC crash in the middle of a football game. Plus it's noisy
with all that fan buzz and hard drive activity.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com