Digital Television DTV

PaulCsouls · May 23, 2004

Thanks Jan

I'll have to sort through all that. What I'm looking for is better
reception than using rabbit ears, while not having to pay for basic
cable. Terrestrial DTV is supposed to do that. I guess there is not
alot of money in it so there's not alot of support. Most people have
cable, satellite or roof antennaes. Non conformist apartment dwellers
are not a big market.

Paul

On Sat, 22 May 2004 15:46:12 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Fri, 21 May 2004 15:48:10 -0700) it happened "Paul Hovnanian
P.E." <Paul@Hovnanian.com> wrote in <40AE872A.1E0A7FD9@Hovnanian.com>:

Joerg wrote:

Hi Paul,

You might be able to get there via this link:

http://e-www.motorola.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MCT5100&nodeId=01Bfq657448766#

If that doesn't yield enough info I'd contact them for a pdf file. It
would be their ASSP business group.

Interesting. This looks like a simple method for getting a basic DTV
receiver up and running. However, I'd consider a multiple chip solution
with some custom FPGA glue logic. There are some interesting things one
can do if one can intercept the transport stream or individual program
streams. Unfortunately, this capability is something that gives the
motion picture industry fits.

We have DTV as well in our area but I won't do much about it until the
programming gets better. Those dreaded shows won't improve just by
switching to DTV. Except for the news our TV just sits there and I don't
see spending money on it unless it breaks. Just my personal opinion.

I saw some set top boxes that probably contain something like the MCT 5100
but they cost more than our TV did. In Germany it's cheaper, they can get
PC cards for DTV under $100 when they are on sale. Not sure if they'd work
over here in the US though.

Nope. Different modulation scheme.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
I dunno, but I know that I can buy a tuner in Europe, the tuner has
'tuner' in it and viterbi decoder, and 8 bits wide full digital
transport stream out.
For example look at the ALPS tuner:
bsrv2-301a.pdf
from:
http://zanco.dyndns.org/Datasheet/tv_satellite_tuners_and_frontends/
Or perhasps at the ALPS site
http://www3.alps.co.jp/us/pdf/index_broadcasting-e.html
Not sure how far they are in the US with ATSC tuner with build in demodulator,
but I think it must be there.

How to filter transport stream and do things see my page:
http://ip51cf87c4.direct-adsl.nl/panteltje/dvd/

A nice introduction to DTV, and the transport stream by Prof. Navarro is here:
http://www.co.it.pt/seminarios/tvdigital/apres_1.pdf

Anyways, once you have the digital stream, all you need to do is filter out
packets, this can be done in hardware FPGA, very fast processor (so also
on the PC).
I record transport stream, and then run the ts through a software filter
in real time, piped into for example Linux mplayer.
cat myprogram.ts | ts2pes VPID APID | mplayer -
works great.
Or via the ethernet card
JP

Joerg · May 23, 2004

Hi Jan,

On a sunny day (Sat, 22 May 2004 21:45:51 GMT) it happened Joerg

Actually it was not sunny but cold and cloudy in Northern California. That's not supposed to happen in
May but it did.

Even with web radio where there is a standards
Realplayer plays a lot.

But not my once favorite station from Gabon in Africa. Always liked their music but even shortwave
doesn't quite reach us here on the US west coast. When I checked on the web this and many (almost all?)
stations in Africa didn't support Realplayer :-(

vintage AM modulation scheme obviously couldn't be messed up by some bickering standards group.
mm, not yet ;-)

I am pretty sure I'll not be around on earth anymore when that happens. AM held up for almost a century
now and works just fine. Some stations tried single sideband in the 80's. I enjoyed the absence of
selective fading and the fact that the stations wouldn't blow thousands of kilowatts just for a carrier
signal. But even that small step in technology hasn't manifested itself against the "old" method.

Are you living in Germany? I heard from friends that the Berlin area went pretty much completely digital
for TV. One of them said it works quite well. But then again he was able to pick up a PC card receiver
for under 100 Euros.

With respect to satellite that picture is very different in the US. No free lunch here like in Europe.
You pay for everything, even radio stations. But when using terrestrial broadcast there are no fees
while Europeans usually have to pay a flat fee to some agency. Anyway, when I saw satellite TV in Europe
my impression was the same as in the US, the content just isn't worth investing much into it. A good
book, Internet, a shortwave radio and some local concerts are a much better deal.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Joerg · May 23, 2004

Hi Jim,

My last time in the theaters was "Once upon a time in the West", the greatest Western I have ever seen. So I
went at least half a dozen times. That was in the early 80's.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Jim Thompson · May 23, 2004

On Sun, 23 May 2004 20:54:33 GMT, Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Hi Jim,

My last time in the theaters was "Once upon a time in the West", the greatest Western I have ever seen. So I
went at least half a dozen times. That was in the early 80's.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Jan Panteltje · May 23, 2004

On a sunny day (Sun, 23 May 2004 20:50:54 GMT) it happened Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in
<40B10FDC.BFFC1599@removethispacbell.net>:

With respect to satellite that picture is very different in the US. No free lunch here like in Europe.
You pay for everything, even radio stations. But when using terrestrial broadcast there are no fees
while Europeans usually have to pay a flat fee to some agency. Anyway, when I saw satellite TV in Europe
my impression was the same as in the US, the content just isn't worth investing much into it. A good
book, Internet, a shortwave radio and some local concerts are a much better deal.

Regards, Joerg

Hi, Joerg, sorry to hear that about the weather in California, maybe it is

the next ice-age coming

You may have to relocate to Mexico.
Tortillas.
As an old radio ham, yes ssb is cool, I also did dsb in the sixties.
Mainly 80 and 40 meters.
Later I went CB on 27 MHz
I am in the Netherlands (next to Germany), and yes Germany is now also going
100% digital.
Same is going to happen here, but the analog TV stations are still up.
In this country more then 80% is cable.
As for 'programs not worth it' I disagree.
Although I bought the dish mainly to watch the (digital) channel of my Guru
(www.maharaji.org), there are many other (free to air) channels that are
perhaps of educational value.
For example take CCTV (China), most German stations, important French
stations, almost all Arab stations (including Iraq, I did see it bombed),
Al Jazeera of cause although that is 100% Americanized (bought up I think),
Dutch stations, in fact I can see Cuba and Chili (South America) too.
And hundreds of other ones, free.
This is good to get a view of the political situation from different points,
and shows you where your gov lies, and how you are manipulated.
Amateur radio went out here when internet became more common place.
Here in the Netherlands there was a fixed fee some years ago, but now TV is
free, either payed by commercials, or by the tax payer (for the main stations).
TV is not really bad here, but of cause it is for the masses, for example I
watched formula 1 racing (Monaco) today, via satellite, on German TV, all free.
You get an add every so many minutes, but OK.
There are also movie channels that you have to subscribe too.
Books, I gave up on (google shows me all I ever wanted to know), magazines I
try not to buy, but often come home with some electronics or computer one..
Even the newspaper gives you the choice between internet and normal paper
subscription. Internet is cheaper.
The advantage of text files is that you can search for a keyword, imposable in
a book.
Sat cards for in the PC are now (SkyStar2) 59 Euro inc. tax
(www.alternate.nl).
So that will give you several hundred free stations.
But anyways, it was sunny here

JP

Joerg · May 23, 2004

Hi Jan,

That's where I lived about 20 years ago. In Zuid Limburg which many Dutch folks claim isn't really the
Netherlands. We spoke a wee bit differently than all the others. Back then people had to pay "kijk and
luister geld" for radio and TV, hope I spelled that right. In Germany it was the same.

Yes, you can get lots of opinions from around the world via satellite. But not so easily in the US unless you
have one of those huge dishes like they used to have in Europe in the 80's. Here the cable or satellite
providers put on whatever is most popular. Or in other words what makes the most money. The starter
"packages" usually cost around $30-40 a month. You cannot watch satellite without paying.

59 Euros for a sat card is great. But again in the US that won't do any good because first you must pay the
provider and then you get the box for free anyways.

Books? Maybe I am old fashioned but I really enjoy reading quietly and without using technology gizmos such
as a laptop where the battery dies after a couple hours. Yes, it is very easy to find, for example, a certain
bible passage via the web in seconds. But then again I don't mind spending more time because that way you
just happen across other interesting stuff. I think that is called the "catalog effect". So I read a lot.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Joerg · May 23, 2004

Hi Jim,

I found that surprisingly many people in the US aren't familiar with this movie. Maybe it's just too long ago. It
is a Sergio Leone Film from 1969 with Henry Fonda, Claudia Cardinale, Charles Bronson and other famous actors. It
was done in Italy and I believe the music was from Ennio Morricone. That music alone makes this one worth
watching. Not too much brutality but plenty of scenes that give even tough guys goose pimples. Simple story, lots
of down-to-earth detail.

Here is some info on it:

http://www.turnerclassicmovies.com/ThisMonth/Article/0,,72479%7C72480%7C12473,00.html

Best would be to get a hold of a European copy if you can play PAL tapes since at least the first showings in the
US had some stuff cut out. Maybe newer tapes in the US hold the full version.

Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com

Jan Panteltje · May 23, 2004

On a sunny day (Sun, 23 May 2004 21:53:46 GMT) it happened Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in
<40B11E9D.54A43CB7@removethispacbell.net>:

Hi Jan,

That's where I lived about 20 years ago. In Zuid Limburg which many Dutch folks claim isn't really the
Netherlands.
Right, Maastricht?

Only hill in the country is there, 'Vaalser berg'.

We spoke a wee bit differently than all the others. Back then people had to pay "kijk and

luister geld"
Spelling 100% correct! Now that ended about 5 or so years ago.

I honestly payed it (only) the last 2 years.
Thats when their 'lock you up if you don't pay campain' became really intense.
Probably because no one would be left, they made it free ;-)

for radio and TV, hope I spelled that right. In Germany it was the same.

Yes, you can get lots of opinions from around the world via satellite. But not so easily in the US unless you
have one of those huge dishes like they used to have in Europe in the 80's. Here the cable or satellite
providers put on whatever is most popular. Or in other words what makes the most money. The starter
"packages" usually cost around $30-40 a month. You cannot watch satellite without paying.

59 Euros for a sat card is great. But again in the US that won't do any good because first you must pay the
provider and then you get the box for free anyways.
Well here many people have ways of watching things for free.

Although the term 'information terrorist' was invented by me some years ago,
and the hunt for terrorists takes on momentum, free TV viewing is still a sport
here it seems.
As was evading taxes...
'Zwart kijken' was the Dutch term for watching without paying 'Kijk en luistergeld'.
As electronics bastler... I already had requests fro mteh states for decrypt
stuff.
I do not give it, US has DCMA, NSA monitors my emails, it would put them in
jail.
We found a different way...
LOL

Joerg · May 23, 2004

Hi Jan,

It was actually Vaals. Nice little town. I lived right above a pub and enjoyed being able to walk everywhere. Even
to the farmers market. That's one of the few downsides in the US. Here most areas are zoned into three categories,
residential, industrial and commercial (retail stores). That means that there usually is no shop or pub that you
can walk to. You need a car for everything. Since I and most (hopefully all...) neighbors won't drink and then
drive that means pubs are getting less business than they would if the zoning wasn't so strict.

It is amazing how fast a language gets rusty when you don't use it. But at least I can still read and listen to
Dutch.

Sat box hacks? Yes, there are certainly also people in the US who break these sat boxes and watch without paying.
But I like to keep things honest. After all, the sat providers have to run a business and it would only cause the
honest folks to pay more than their share. Personally I just use the local TV channels, it's all we really need
for what little TV we watch.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Jan Panteltje · May 23, 2004

On a sunny day (Sun, 23 May 2004 23:32:50 GMT) it happened Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in
<40B135D5.90DF40E2@removethispacbell.net>:

Hi Jan,

It was actually Vaals. Nice little town.
OK

I lived right above a pub and enjoyed being able to walk everywhere. Even
Actually I did too, for about 4 years.

to the farmers market.
Yep, great ain't it?

That's one of the few downsides in the US.
Well, I would not be impolite, their current prfsident is also one.

Here most areas are zoned into three categories,
residential, industrial and commercial (retail stores).
Why would anyone want to go there

That means that there usually is no shop or pub that you
can walk to. You need a car for everything. Since I and most (hopefully all...) neighbors won't drink and then
Well, here I am sure) EVERY village (however small) has a 'cafe'.

It may not have a shop where you can buy food, but a bar it will have

drive that means pubs are getting less business than they would if the zoning wasn't so strict.
I have been in America, I known the place.

People are scared to be out late at night, the streets are empty.
Police in every corner, police state.
Take Amsterdam in the summer in the evening.
You can walk, thousands of people on the streets.. great place.

It is amazing how fast a language gets rusty when you don't use it. But at least I can still read and listen to
Dutch.
There used to be 'Radio Wereldomroep' on the short waves.

They had budget cuts, not even sure they are still on the air...

Sat box hacks? Yes, there are certainly also people in the US who break these sat boxes and watch without paying.
But I like to keep things honest. After all, the sat providers have to run a business and it would only cause the
honest folks to pay more than their share.
If it was not possible to watch it 'hacked' nobody would bother, there are

really enough free to air programs.
Only very few of these commercial ventures actually live.
Sky in UK seems to be one of them, but Murdoch is 100% US controlled I think.
Whoaaaaaaa!

Personally I just use the local TV channels, it's all we really need
Yea, but don't you mis teletekst?

mm maybe internet replaces it.
http://teletekst.nos.nl/gif/100-01.html
At the bottom of the page you can download teletext browser.
Will give you all the Dutch news you want online.
JP

Rich Grise · May 24, 2004

"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message

On Sat, 22 May 2004 22:09:57 GMT, Joerg
lives, we did it: We rented a movie on VHS tape! It was "My big fat Greek
wedding" and that finally was
We rarely go to a theater, though the wife talked me into going to the
new version of "The Ladykillers" (I already own the Alec Guinness
version).

Yesterday afternoon, I took my inner child to go see "Shrek II."
It was fun!

There were even a couple of fart jokes, but if
you can believe it, they were actually _cute_ fart jokes!
Unfortunately, most of the best gags are already in the
trailer and reviews.

Cheers!
Rich

Jan Panteltje · May 24, 2004

Actually you can get many internet radio stations if you go to www.netscape.com
and press 'Internet radio' top left, and download their program.
LOTS of readio, selectable by genre.
It's only for MS Widows though.
JP

maxfoo · May 25, 2004

On Sun, 23 May 2004 22:35:34 GMT, Joerg <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net>
wrote:

Hi Jim,

I found that surprisingly many people in the US aren't familiar with this movie. Maybe it's just too long ago. It
is a Sergio Leone Film from 1969 with Henry Fonda, Claudia Cardinale, Charles Bronson and other famous actors. It
was done in Italy and I believe the music was from Ennio Morricone. That music alone makes this one worth
watching. Not too much brutality but plenty of scenes that give even tough guys goose pimples. Simple story, lots
of down-to-earth detail.

AMC will be showing it thursday 8pm...but check your area listing.

Once Upon a Time in the West (1969)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Once Upon a Time in the West (1969)
AMC May 27 08:00pm Add to My Calendar
Movies, 210 Mins.
***+ (Rated PG-13)

An outlaw working for a railroad magnate fights a stranger for a New Orleans
widow's land. Directed by Sergio Leone. Adult Situations; Language.

Cast: David Carradine, Henry Fonda, Claudia Cardinale, Ronny Cox, Charles
Bronson, Melinda Dillon, Jason Robards Jr., Frank Wolff, Gabriele Ferzetti,
Keenan Wynn, Paolo Stoppa, Marco Zuanelli, Lionel Stander, Jack Elam, Woody
Strode, John Frederick, Enzo Santianello.
Director(s): Hal Ashby, Sergio Leone.
Producer(s): Fulvio Morsella, Robert F. Blumofe, Harold Leventhal.

Remove "HeadFromButt", before replying by email.

Tom MacIntyre · May 25, 2004

On Tue, 25 May 2004 23:27:14 GMT, maxfoo
<maxfooHeadFromButt@punkass.com> wrote:

On Sun, 23 May 2004 22:35:34 GMT, Joerg <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net
wrote:

Hi Jim,

I found that surprisingly many people in the US aren't familiar with this movie. Maybe it's just too long ago. It
is a Sergio Leone Film from 1969 with Henry Fonda, Claudia Cardinale, Charles Bronson and other famous actors. It
was done in Italy and I believe the music was from Ennio Morricone. That music alone makes this one worth
watching. Not too much brutality but plenty of scenes that give even tough guys goose pimples. Simple story, lots
of down-to-earth detail.

AMC will be showing it thursday 8pm...but check your area listing.

Once Upon a Time in the West (1969)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Once Upon a Time in the West (1969)
AMC May 27 08:00pm Add to My Calendar
Movies, 210 Mins.
***+ (Rated PG-13)

An outlaw working for a railroad magnate fights a stranger for a New Orleans
widow's land. Directed by Sergio Leone. Adult Situations; Language.

Cast: David Carradine, Henry Fonda, Claudia Cardinale, Ronny Cox, Charles
Bronson, Melinda Dillon,

Melinda Dillon isn't even listed in the credits for this on the
Internet Movie Database. It would've been her first movie, by the look
of it, after having had a few TV guest appearances.

Tom

Jason Robards Jr., Frank Wolff, Gabriele Ferzetti,
Keenan Wynn, Paolo Stoppa, Marco Zuanelli, Lionel Stander, Jack Elam, Woody
Strode, John Frederick, Enzo Santianello.
Director(s): Hal Ashby, Sergio Leone.
Producer(s): Fulvio Morsella, Robert F. Blumofe, Harold Leventhal.

Remove "HeadFromButt", before replying by email.

Jim Thompson · May 25, 2004

On Tue, 25 May 2004 23:45:49 GMT, Tom MacIntyre
<tom__macintyre@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, 25 May 2004 23:27:14 GMT, maxfoo
maxfooHeadFromButt@punkass.com> wrote:

On Sun, 23 May 2004 22:35:34 GMT, Joerg <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net
wrote:

Hi Jim,

I found that surprisingly many people in the US aren't familiar with this movie. Maybe it's just too long ago. It
is a Sergio Leone Film from 1969 with Henry Fonda, Claudia Cardinale, Charles Bronson and other famous actors. It
was done in Italy and I believe the music was from Ennio Morricone. That music alone makes this one worth
watching. Not too much brutality but plenty of scenes that give even tough guys goose pimples. Simple story, lots
of down-to-earth detail.

AMC will be showing it thursday 8pm...but check your area listing.

Once Upon a Time in the West (1969)

[snip]

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

maxfoo · May 25, 2004

On Tue, 25 May 2004 23:45:49 GMT, Tom MacIntyre <tom__macintyre@hotmail.com>
wrote:

Melinda Dillon isn't even listed in the credits for this on the
Internet Movie Database. It would've been her first movie, by the look
of it, after having had a few TV guest appearances.

Tom

Yahoo had her listed...

http://tv.yahoo.com/

Remove "HeadFromButt", before replying by email.

PaulCsouls · May 26, 2004

Continuing my quest for terrestrial DTV in the USA.

Here an interesting article on its availability.

http://broadcastengineering.com/ar/broadcasting_dsr/

Here's a neat 'how to' by Analog Devices.

http://www.analog.com/UploadedFiles/Technical_Articles/371982266wideband.pdf

The AD6620 and AD6640 are both available from Digikey one's $50 and
the other is $25. Kind of steep but then my cable bill is $42/month.

Paul

Joerg · May 26, 2004

Hi Paul,

Reading that story gave me some goose pimples. $400 to $650 for a set top box?
Ouch! That's more than what I paid for the whole TV set.

I guess the Europeans are leading on this one then. They can buy OFDM boxes for
a fraction of that.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

John S. Dyson · May 26, 2004

In article <40B51263.49FCEF4C@removethispacbell.net>,
Joerg <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> writes:

Hi Paul,

Reading that story gave me some goose pimples. $400 to $650 for a set top box?
Ouch! That's more than what I paid for the whole TV set.

I guess the Europeans are leading on this one then. They can buy OFDM boxes for
a fraction of that.

In the US, our set-top boxes have to deal with the HDTV MPEG2 decoding,

which does require significantly more horsepower than the typical
SDTV applications (there is very little HDTV in Europe.) Few terrestrial
STBs in Europe really support HDTV.

The biggest cost difference between the US technology and the European
technology is the necessary support in the US for HDTV. Even if we
had a STB that had only SD outputs, it would still have to decode HDTV
so as to be able to display all programs.

John

Joerg · May 26, 2004

Hi John,

You are right, HDTV support does make a huge difference. Europe has had their bout
with HDTV some time in the 80's. I remember when really expensive sets were sold in
Scandinavia. These were huge and affordable flat screens were not invented yet.

Shortly after that the programming fizzled and then some people ended up with what
the press there called the largest and most expensive nightstands ever. But of course
we are now two decades later and the US consumer has always been more willing to
spend on fun stuff, even if it's just to watch the baseball games in king size
fashion.

Personally I sometimes think whether mankind really needs HDTV. But that's besides
the point. I just won't spend that much dough on something like TV. Just figure how
many tickets for a good stadium seat you can buy for the price of an HDTV set.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

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