Digital Television DTV

PaulCsouls · May 21, 2004

Most stations around me are broadcasting DTV, but receivers seem to be
hard to find. Motorola makes a neat 1 chip solution called the MCT5100
but I can't seem to find a source or a data sheet on it. Does anyone
have information on what the specs are where to get components ?

Thanks
Paul

Joerg · May 21, 2004

Hi Paul,

You might be able to get there via this link:

http://e-www.motorola.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MCT5100&nodeId=01Bfq657448766#

If that doesn't yield enough info I'd contact them for a pdf file. It
would be their ASSP business group.

We have DTV as well in our area but I won't do much about it until the
programming gets better. Those dreaded shows won't improve just by
switching to DTV. Except for the news our TV just sits there and I don't
see spending money on it unless it breaks. Just my personal opinion.

I saw some set top boxes that probably contain something like the MCT 5100
but they cost more than our TV did. In Germany it's cheaper, they can get
PC cards for DTV under $100 when they are on sale. Not sure if they'd work
over here in the US though.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Paul Hovnanian P.E. · May 21, 2004

Joerg wrote:

Hi Paul,

You might be able to get there via this link:

http://e-www.motorola.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MCT5100&nodeId=01Bfq657448766#

If that doesn't yield enough info I'd contact them for a pdf file. It
would be their ASSP business group.

Interesting. This looks like a simple method for getting a basic DTV
receiver up and running. However, I'd consider a multiple chip solution
with some custom FPGA glue logic. There are some interesting things one
can do if one can intercept the transport stream or individual program
streams. Unfortunately, this capability is something that gives the
motion picture industry fits.

We have DTV as well in our area but I won't do much about it until the
programming gets better. Those dreaded shows won't improve just by
switching to DTV. Except for the news our TV just sits there and I don't
see spending money on it unless it breaks. Just my personal opinion.

I saw some set top boxes that probably contain something like the MCT 5100
but they cost more than our TV did. In Germany it's cheaper, they can get
PC cards for DTV under $100 when they are on sale. Not sure if they'd work
over here in the US though.

Nope. Different modulation scheme.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

--
Paul Hovnanian mailto

aul@Hovnanian.com
note to spammers: a Washington State resident
------------------------------------------------------------------
Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change.

Joerg · May 21, 2004

I saw some set top boxes that probably contain something like the MCT 5100
but they cost more than our TV did. In Germany it's cheaper, they can get
PC cards for DTV under $100 when they are on sale. Not sure if they'd work
over here in the US though.

Nope. Different modulation scheme.

Thanks for the info, Paul. That's almost what I expected. Beats me why the countries around the
world have such a hard time to agree on a standard. They can't even agree on a common digital radio
standard. Everyone has to create their own little thing. Probably because it would make it all too
easy otherwise.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Julie · May 21, 2004

Joerg wrote:

I saw some set top boxes that probably contain something like the MCT 5100
but they cost more than our TV did. In Germany it's cheaper, they can get
PC cards for DTV under $100 when they are on sale. Not sure if they'd work
over here in the US though.

Nope. Different modulation scheme.

Thanks for the info, Paul. That's almost what I expected. Beats me why the countries around the
world have such a hard time to agree on a standard. They can't even agree on a common digital radio
standard. Everyone has to create their own little thing. Probably because it would make it all too
easy otherwise.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Forget standardization on anything 'complicated', we can't even get a standard
on fundamental AC frequency and amplitude!

Joerg · May 21, 2004

Yes, Julie, but AC standards were set when a steamer across the Altantic was the only means of travel and
letters had to go the same route. I just don't understand why in this day and age it didn't get any
better. We might as well cut the travel budgets to all those meetings and save the taxpayers some money.

There are examples where standards were set properly. One is telecom and data. An IP protocol is an IP
protocol no matter where you are on the planet. And a phone from Europe can be made to work in the US, at
least to some degree. With radios, even analog ones, that's another matter. The ones with a PLL won't cut
it because the channel spacing is different. And forget about analog TV where almost nothing is
compatible. Seems like the standard makers learned nothing when going to DTV.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

PaulCsouls · May 22, 2004

Thanks Joerg

I found that one. But there doesn't seem to be much information. I
also found one at ATI
http://www.ati.com/products/dtv.html

I agree with your assessment of TV. That's why I keep wondering why I
pay for basic cable just to get the reception when I can get digital
reception. All my searches for DTV either end up at satellite TV sites
or overseas. I beginning to think it's a plot by the cable and
satellite companies.

Paul

On Fri, 21 May 2004 19:25:03 GMT, Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Hi Paul,

You might be able to get there via this link:

http://e-www.motorola.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MCT5100&nodeId=01Bfq657448766#

If that doesn't yield enough info I'd contact them for a pdf file. It
would be their ASSP business group.

We have DTV as well in our area but I won't do much about it until the
programming gets better. Those dreaded shows won't improve just by
switching to DTV. Except for the news our TV just sits there and I don't
see spending money on it unless it breaks. Just my personal opinion.

I saw some set top boxes that probably contain something like the MCT 5100
but they cost more than our TV did. In Germany it's cheaper, they can get
PC cards for DTV under $100 when they are on sale. Not sure if they'd work
over here in the US though.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

PaulCsouls · May 22, 2004

On Fri, 21 May 2004 15:48:10 -0700, "Paul Hovnanian P.E."
<Paul@Hovnanian.com> wrote:

Interesting. This looks like a simple method for getting a basic DTV
receiver up and running. However, I'd consider a multiple chip solution
with some custom FPGA glue logic.

Yes, I'm beginning to think I need to look around for some open source
FPGA components for the MPEG stuff. The special purpose stuff doesn't
seem available to your average engineer.

Paul

Jan Panteltje · May 22, 2004

On a sunny day (Fri, 21 May 2004 15:48:10 -0700) it happened "Paul Hovnanian
P.E." <Paul@Hovnanian.com> wrote in <40AE872A.1E0A7FD9@Hovnanian.com>:

Joerg wrote:

Hi Paul,

You might be able to get there via this link:

http://e-www.motorola.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MCT5100&nodeId=01Bfq657448766#

If that doesn't yield enough info I'd contact them for a pdf file. It
would be their ASSP business group.

Interesting. This looks like a simple method for getting a basic DTV
receiver up and running. However, I'd consider a multiple chip solution
with some custom FPGA glue logic. There are some interesting things one
can do if one can intercept the transport stream or individual program
streams. Unfortunately, this capability is something that gives the
motion picture industry fits.

We have DTV as well in our area but I won't do much about it until the
programming gets better. Those dreaded shows won't improve just by
switching to DTV. Except for the news our TV just sits there and I don't
see spending money on it unless it breaks. Just my personal opinion.

I saw some set top boxes that probably contain something like the MCT 5100
but they cost more than our TV did. In Germany it's cheaper, they can get
PC cards for DTV under $100 when they are on sale. Not sure if they'd work
over here in the US though.

Nope. Different modulation scheme.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
I dunno, but I know that I can buy a tuner in Europe, the tuner has

'tuner' in it and viterbi decoder, and 8 bits wide full digital
transport stream out.
For example look at the ALPS tuner:
bsrv2-301a.pdf
from:
http://zanco.dyndns.org/Datasheet/tv_satellite_tuners_and_frontends/
Or perhasps at the ALPS site
http://www3.alps.co.jp/us/pdf/index_broadcasting-e.html
Not sure how far they are in the US with ATSC tuner with build in demodulator,
but I think it must be there.

How to filter transport stream and do things see my page:
http://ip51cf87c4.direct-adsl.nl/panteltje/dvd/

A nice introduction to DTV, and the transport stream by Prof. Navarro is here:
http://www.co.it.pt/seminarios/tvdigital/apres_1.pdf

Anyways, once you have the digital stream, all you need to do is filter out
packets, this can be done in hardware FPGA, very fast processor (so also
on the PC).
I record transport stream, and then run the ts through a software filter
in real time, piped into for example Linux mplayer.
cat myprogram.ts | ts2pes VPID APID | mplayer -
works great.
Or via the ethernet card

JP

Jan Panteltje · May 22, 2004

On a sunny day (Fri, 21 May 2004 23:09:17 GMT) it happened Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in
<40AE8D49.E78D6687@removethispacbell.net>:

I saw some set top boxes that probably contain something like the MCT 5100
but they cost more than our TV did. In Germany it's cheaper, they can get
PC cards for DTV under $100 when they are on sale. Not sure if they'd work
over here in the US though.

Nope. Different modulation scheme.

Thanks for the info, Paul. That's almost what I expected. Beats me why the countries around the
world have such a hard time to agree on a standard. They can't even agree on a common digital radio
standard. Everyone has to create their own little thing. Probably because it would make it all too
easy otherwise.

Regards, Joerg

See my reply in this thread.

JP

Paul Hovnanian P.E. · May 22, 2004

Jan Panteltje wrote:

On a sunny day (Fri, 21 May 2004 15:48:10 -0700) it happened "Paul Hovnanian
P.E." <Paul@Hovnanian.com> wrote in <40AE872A.1E0A7FD9@Hovnanian.com>:

Joerg wrote:

Hi Paul,

You might be able to get there via this link:

http://e-www.motorola.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MCT5100&nodeId=01Bfq657448766#

If that doesn't yield enough info I'd contact them for a pdf file. It
would be their ASSP business group.

Interesting. This looks like a simple method for getting a basic DTV
receiver up and running. However, I'd consider a multiple chip solution
with some custom FPGA glue logic. There are some interesting things one
can do if one can intercept the transport stream or individual program
streams. Unfortunately, this capability is something that gives the
motion picture industry fits.

We have DTV as well in our area but I won't do much about it until the
programming gets better. Those dreaded shows won't improve just by
switching to DTV. Except for the news our TV just sits there and I don't
see spending money on it unless it breaks. Just my personal opinion.

I saw some set top boxes that probably contain something like the MCT 5100
but they cost more than our TV did. In Germany it's cheaper, they can get
PC cards for DTV under $100 when they are on sale. Not sure if they'd work
over here in the US though.

Nope. Different modulation scheme.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

I dunno, but I know that I can buy a tuner in Europe, the tuner has
'tuner' in it and viterbi decoder, and 8 bits wide full digital
transport stream out.

Good info here. Thanks.

For example look at the ALPS tuner:
bsrv2-301a.pdf
from:
http://zanco.dyndns.org/Datasheet/tv_satellite_tuners_and_frontends/
Or perhasps at the ALPS site
http://www3.alps.co.jp/us/pdf/index_broadcasting-e.html
Not sure how far they are in the US with ATSC tuner with build in demodulator,
but I think it must be there.

How to filter transport stream and do things see my page:
http://ip51cf87c4.direct-adsl.nl/panteltje/dvd/

A nice introduction to DTV, and the transport stream by Prof. Navarro is here:
http://www.co.it.pt/seminarios/tvdigital/apres_1.pdf

Anyways, once you have the digital stream, all you need to do is filter out
packets, this can be done in hardware FPGA, very fast processor (so also
on the PC).
I record transport stream, and then run the ts through a software filter
in real time, piped into for example Linux mplayer.
cat myprogram.ts | ts2pes VPID APID | mplayer -
works great.
Or via the ethernet card
JP

The problem with this approach is that you can also sent the high def.
MPEG streams to a disk drive. This is giving the movie studios fits and
they are pushing for laws to prohibit the manufacture and sale of any
device that gives the user access to the data stream. The OP may not
care about this and the one chip solution (IF in, RGB out) may be
suitable for his needs.

Funny thing about movie studios: the regulations that they are backing
would require any tuner/demodulator to negotiate a secure digital link
with a high def monitor. If the monitor can not verify that it is a
compliant unit (i.e. no record capability) the tuner must down convert
the signal resolution to 480 lines.

Thank you very much. If I am a pirate, intent on recording/burning
illegal DVDs, I'd have to down convert the HDTV signal to 480 lines
anyway, since that is typical DVD resolution. You just saved me the
trouble (not that its very difficult to do).

Other proposed schemes would require tuners to provide only analog
outputs to non-compliant displays. But this is still far beyond the
resolution that current pirates obtain with the camcorders they sneak
into movie theaters. And even at that low level of quality, they still
move product. On the other hand, if they (the studios) just left the raw
digital signal accessible, they could easily embed digital watermarks
into the data stream which would otherwise be obscured by a D/A
conversion.

--
Paul Hovnanian mailto

aul@Hovnanian.com
note to spammers: a Washington State resident
------------------------------------------------------------------
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum
immane mittam. (Translation from latin: "I have a catapult. Give me
all the money, or I will fling an enormous rock at your head.")

Paul Hovnanian P.E. · May 22, 2004

Joerg wrote:

I saw some set top boxes that probably contain something like the MCT 5100
but they cost more than our TV did. In Germany it's cheaper, they can get
PC cards for DTV under $100 when they are on sale. Not sure if they'd work
over here in the US though.

Nope. Different modulation scheme.

Thanks for the info, Paul. That's almost what I expected. Beats me why the countries around the
world have such a hard time to agree on a standard. They can't even agree on a common digital radio
standard. Everyone has to create their own little thing. Probably because it would make it all too
easy otherwise.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Its called market segmentation. You split the world up into lots of
isolated markets so that local manufacturers don't have to contend with
foreign competition.

--
Paul Hovnanian mailto

aul@Hovnanian.com
note to spammers: a Washington State resident
------------------------------------------------------------------
All those who believe in psychokinesis raise my hand.

Jan Panteltje · May 22, 2004

On a sunny day (Sat, 22 May 2004 10:04:53 -0700) it happened "Paul Hovnanian
P.E." <Paul@Hovnanian.com> wrote in <40AF8835.8368A74D@Hovnanian.com>:

The problem with this approach is that you can also sent the high def.
MPEG streams to a disk drive. This is giving the movie studios fits and
they are pushing for laws to prohibit the manufacture and sale of any
device that gives the user access to the data stream. The OP may not
care about this and the one chip solution (IF in, RGB out) may be
suitable for his needs.

Funny thing about movie studios: the regulations that they are backing
would require any tuner/demodulator to negotiate a secure digital link
with a high def monitor. If the monitor can not verify that it is a
compliant unit (i.e. no record capability) the tuner must down convert
the signal resolution to 480 lines.

Thank you very much. If I am a pirate, intent on recording/burning
illegal DVDs, I'd have to down convert the HDTV signal to 480 lines
anyway, since that is typical DVD resolution. You just saved me the
trouble (not that its very difficult to do).

Other proposed schemes would require tuners to provide only analog
outputs to non-compliant displays. But this is still far beyond the
resolution that current pirates obtain with the camcorders they sneak
into movie theaters. And even at that low level of quality, they still
move product. On the other hand, if they (the studios) just left the raw
digital signal accessible, they could easily embed digital watermarks
into the data stream which would otherwise be obscured by a D/A
conversion.
OK, I think (my view) that this whole thing about copy right protection

has gone way out of control, and indeed seems to be playing field of
lawyers more then engineers. It seems some companies just think up some
'solution' and who gets the contract makes big money.
It is an example of a society gone astray, really.
I was reading in the paper that now in NewYork you can no longer take
pictures in the tube, as those pictures can be used by terrorists.
How increadible stupid can you get?
Politics, not science!
That system you are talking about will of cause be hacked within a few weeks
by a 12 year old who wants to see what the is not allowed to see...
And, with that hack, ALL OF THE WORLD is in the clear.
I have the source to much of the top secret DTV crypt stuff, some of it was
released by the competion to do max damage to the other side.
hehe, so what do you expect will happen

And any image on a screen, well we had studio camera on a monitor years
and years ago, and hard to tell the difference even for a profi.
It is exactly this kind of 'straight jacket' by stupidity (like that no
pics), that makes me feel like a good WW3 nuke session would perhaps help to
bring things back to reality.
And it is not only in this field oh no.
JP

Joerg · May 22, 2004

Hi Paul,

There are some terrestrial DTV broadcasts. In our area (Northern California) some stations got a
temporary extra channel where their DTV signals transmit. But even then, the content is what
matters. I expect the DTV material to be on the same level as the analog broadcast. Except for the
history channel and some newscast, not much. Which is also why we have neither cable nor satellite.
When we see what's on cable at neighbors I find most of the movies there pretty disgusting. The
shows are so hollow that I'd fall asleep in minutes. I just don't see how DTV is going to improve
that.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Jim Thompson · May 22, 2004

On Sat, 22 May 2004 21:33:36 GMT, Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Hi Paul,

There are some terrestrial DTV broadcasts. In our area (Northern California) some stations got a
temporary extra channel where their DTV signals transmit. But even then, the content is what
matters. I expect the DTV material to be on the same level as the analog broadcast. Except for the
history channel and some newscast, not much. Which is also why we have neither cable nor satellite.
When we see what's on cable at neighbors I find most of the movies there pretty disgusting. The
shows are so hollow that I'd fall asleep in minutes. I just don't see how DTV is going to improve
that.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

DTV is certainly NOT going to improve content. That's why my personal
DVD movie library is approaching 300.

And I see two new movies that I must buy as soon as they appear on
DVD: the new versions of "Stepford Wives" and "Manchurian Candidate"
(I have the originals

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Joerg · May 22, 2004

Hi Jan,

Thanks for the info. The ALPS TDH series has both demodulation schemes in there so it should be
usable in the US and Europe. The only problem is that when you go to a computer store over there to
buy one of those low cost specials nobody knows what's in the box. The sales guys often only know
what is written on the carton. I remember when I had to buy a multi-standard VCR in Europe I had to
go through an expensive radio store because only they could find me all the specs (that was before
Internet).

What beats me is why the US had to go 8-VSB while most of the rest of the world went OFDM (which
actually was suggested right here in the US, too). Same with digital radio as far as I can see. I'll
just stay away from all that stuff as long as I can. Even with web radio where there is a standards
fight going on (guess who'll win that one...). My trusty old shortwave radio works just fine. The
vintage AM modulation scheme obviously couldn't be messed up by some bickering standards group.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Joerg · May 22, 2004

Hi Jim,

Here I must confess that we don't even own a DVD player. But last month, for the first time in our
lives, we did it: We rented a movie on VHS tape! It was "My big fat Greek wedding" and that finally was
an enjoyable movie. Neighbors told us we just had to see it because that's pretty much how their wedding
went.

Further rummaging in the video store didn't enthuse us much though.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Joel Kolstad · May 22, 2004

Joerg <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

What beats me is why the US had to go 8-VSB while most of the rest of the
world went OFDM (which actually was suggested right here in the US, too).
Same with digital radio as far as I can see.

DRM and iBiquity are both OFDM, no? I've been fully expecting that
commercial radios will very quickly support both standards just by running
different software in their DSPs.

My trusty old
shortwave radio works just fine. The vintage AM modulation scheme
obviously couldn't be messed up by some bickering standards group.

The modulation scheme can't be changed, but you can bet that sooner or later
the FCC is going to dictate which modulation schemes are allowed in the
commercial frequency bands. Within the next couple of decades I think we
will be seeing the phase-out of traditional AM and FM in favor of various
digital modulation schemes on the commercial bands.

---Joel

Jim Thompson · May 22, 2004

On Sat, 22 May 2004 22:09:57 GMT, Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Hi Jim,

Here I must confess that we don't even own a DVD player. But last month, for the first time in our
lives, we did it: We rented a movie on VHS tape! It was "My big fat Greek wedding" and that finally was
an enjoyable movie. Neighbors told us we just had to see it because that's pretty much how their wedding
went.

Further rummaging in the video store didn't enthuse us much though.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

I have that on DVD also ;-)

I usually buy movies based on friend's recommendations.

We rarely go to a theater, though the wife talked me into going to the
new version of "The Ladykillers" (I already own the Alec Guinness
version).

The new version was funny though punctuated with an unnecessary level
of black-style vulgarity.

The last time I went to a theater before that was to see "Braveheart"
;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Jan Panteltje · May 22, 2004

On a sunny day (Sat, 22 May 2004 21:45:51 GMT) it happened Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in
<40AFCB41.C00689CC@removethispacbell.net>:

Hi Jan,

Thanks for the info. The ALPS TDH series has both demodulation schemes in there so it should be
usable in the US and Europe. The only problem is that when you go to a computer store over there to
buy one of those low cost specials nobody knows what's in the box.
hehe, I was looking for some PC card on a website, it said 'details', so

I clicked, and I got a BIGGER picture of the box.

The sales guys often only know
what is written on the carton. I remember when I had to buy a multi-standard VCR in Europe I had to
go through an expensive radio store because only they could find me all the specs (that was before
Internet).
Yep, and in those times multi standard receivers - I think there was only

Barco, very expensive.

What beats me is why the US had to go 8-VSB while most of the rest of the world went OFDM (which
Well, I followed that discussion in newsgroups, and the decicion making

process, and there was something about better long range and reflections.
But maybe that person here who mentioned 'market protection' has the right
answer.
It HAD to be different from Europe, because else the market would have been
'spoiled' by cheap European receivers. (Europe has now had digital for many
years).
I am sure the prices will drop in the next few years in the US too, as
production increases.
Hey today on German TV there was a DVD recorder (with receiver etc),
for 199 Euro, that worked on DVD+RW and DVD+R, so prices of that stuff are
now also dropping.

actually was suggested right here in the US, too).
Yes, and a lot of effort was made... But market protection won.

Same with digital radio as far as I can see. I'll
just stay away from all that stuff as long as I can.
I have satellite, I dunno how many free digital radio stations there

are, but more then a hundred, from all over the world, I hardly listen to it
though.

Even with web radio where there is a standards
Realplayer plays a lot.

fight going on (guess who'll win that one...). My trusty old shortwave radio works just fine. The
Dunno who will win, 2 systems, competion, better quality, why one winner.

vintage AM modulation scheme obviously couldn't be messed up by some bickering standards group.
mm, not yet ;-)

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
You are at the start of new technology, I always liked to be at front, was

first with this digital TV stuff, and you take your chances.
Standards will perhaps last a bit shorter... things become obsolete,
better products come, you may have to buy twice.
Take that DVD stuff, DVD- DVD+, now Blue Light, and some other standard.

Regards
JP

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