Cost of a Traffic Signal ??

Jim Thompson · Dec 3, 2003

I have a "T" intersection near my house.

The "cross" of the "T" has right-of-way with a speed limit of 55, but
usual speeds are 70:

E<--------------->W (Pecos Road)
|<>-(stop sign)
|
| (Desert Foothills)

View to the west is blind due to a slightly rising hill.

Traffic density on Pecos has recently increased dramatically due to a
new freeway section opening several miles to the east.

I have been harping at the city to do something about this unsafe
intersection but was told basically "tough, you're not getting a
traffic light anytime soon and they don't put stop signs on feeders",
but he'd grace my complaint by repainting the white front-edge stripe
(done last Tuesday or Wednesday) and would trim the trees to the west.

Friday night a woman died in an accident there when she was T-boned
trying to get onto Pecos eastbound from Desert Foothills.

My question: What does it cost (purchase and install) for a traffic
light?

I'm going to suggest that the family sue the city for 100X the cost of
a traffic light.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Fred Bloggs · Dec 3, 2003

Jim Thompson wrote:

I have a "T" intersection near my house.

The "cross" of the "T" has right-of-way with a speed limit of 55, but
usual speeds are 70:

E<--------------->W (Pecos Road)
|<>-(stop sign)
|
| (Desert Foothills)

View to the west is blind due to a slightly rising hill.

Traffic density on Pecos has recently increased dramatically due to a
new freeway section opening several miles to the east.

I have been harping at the city to do something about this unsafe
intersection but was told basically "tough, you're not getting a
traffic light anytime soon and they don't put stop signs on feeders",
but he'd grace my complaint by repainting the white front-edge stripe
(done last Tuesday or Wednesday) and would trim the trees to the west.

Friday night a woman died in an accident there when she was T-boned
trying to get onto Pecos eastbound from Desert Foothills.

My question: What does it cost (purchase and install) for a traffic
light?

I'm going to suggest that the family sue the city for 100X the cost of
a traffic light.

...Jim Thompson

The usual approach is to do a "REDUCED SPEED LIMIT" to say 35-45MPH on
Pecos in the vicinity of that intersection with possible flashing
CAUTION sign on both sides. If you have a record of making the city
aware of the problem then I would say they're doubly in for it.

Spehro Pefhany · Dec 3, 2003

On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 08:26:51 -0700, the renowned Jim Thompson
<invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

I have a "T" intersection near my house.

The "cross" of the "T" has right-of-way with a speed limit of 55, but
usual speeds are 70:

E<--------------->W (Pecos Road)
|<>-(stop sign)
|
| (Desert Foothills)

View to the west is blind due to a slightly rising hill.

Traffic density on Pecos has recently increased dramatically due to a
new freeway section opening several miles to the east.

I have been harping at the city to do something about this unsafe
intersection but was told basically "tough, you're not getting a
traffic light anytime soon and they don't put stop signs on feeders",
but he'd grace my complaint by repainting the white front-edge stripe
(done last Tuesday or Wednesday) and would trim the trees to the west.

Friday night a woman died in an accident there when she was T-boned
trying to get onto Pecos eastbound from Desert Foothills.

My question: What does it cost (purchase and install) for a traffic
light?

I'm going to suggest that the family sue the city for 100X the cost of
a traffic light.

A quick google search leads me to think that it's around 100-125K. So,
around $10M-12M.

http://www.thecommondenominator.com/021003_taking.html VA 100K
http://www.ci.carmel.in.us/government/newsrelease/hazeldell2.html IN
124K

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

John Hall · Dec 3, 2003

On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 08:26:51 -0700, Jim Thompson
<invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

...
My question: What does it cost (purchase and install) for a traffic
light?>...

A few years ago, I read the average cost in Calgary (urban
environment) was about Cdn$50,000.

I was living in a very traffic-congested area, and they installed a
new one that I suspected would not make much difference. It didn't, in
my experience. Previously I could usually negotiate my way into the
apartment complex through the stalled traffic. The light made it
slightly easier, and thus perhaps safer, but I don't recall seeing any
collisions there in about four years, and if there were they would
probably not cause serious injury.

I think the traffic planners have two aims in deciding where to
install lights - collision reduction and improved traffic flow.
Sometimes a light can help with both of these, though they are
sometimes orthogonal. Both camps ('citizens for better flow' &
'citizens for better safety') are making apparently good cases for
resources, and it can be difficult to prioritize fairly.

I did discuss one situation with them, and they adjusted a left filter
timing in the morning peak, which did improve things (flow). I was
quite impressed with their reasoning against my original proposal (on
safety grounds), and their alternative suggestion.

--
John W Hall <wweexxsseessssaa@telus.net>
Cochrane, Alberta, Canada.
"Helping People Prosper in the Information Age"

Baphomet · Dec 3, 2003

"Jim Thompson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:jgvrsvshu9qiii15rtvlo03volum8setvp@4ax.com...

I have a "T" intersection near my house.

The "cross" of the "T" has right-of-way with a speed limit of 55, but
usual speeds are 70:

E<--------------->W (Pecos Road)
|<>-(stop sign)
|
| (Desert Foothills)

View to the west is blind due to a slightly rising hill.

Traffic density on Pecos has recently increased dramatically due to a
new freeway section opening several miles to the east.

I have been harping at the city to do something about this unsafe
intersection but was told basically "tough, you're not getting a
traffic light anytime soon and they don't put stop signs on feeders",
but he'd grace my complaint by repainting the white front-edge stripe
(done last Tuesday or Wednesday) and would trim the trees to the west.

Friday night a woman died in an accident there when she was T-boned
trying to get onto Pecos eastbound from Desert Foothills.

My question: What does it cost (purchase and install) for a traffic
light?

I'm going to suggest that the family sue the city for 100X the cost of
a traffic light.

Jim -

By any chance, did you send in your complaint registered mail return receipt
requested? I believe that the way most local jurisdictions work is that they
assume liability, once a complaint has been "officially" registered.

Jim Thompson · Dec 3, 2003

On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 08:14:32 -0800, "Baphomet" <no.spam@no.spam.us>
wrote:

"Jim Thompson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:jgvrsvshu9qiii15rtvlo03volum8setvp@4ax.com...
I have a "T" intersection near my house.

The "cross" of the "T" has right-of-way with a speed limit of 55, but
usual speeds are 70:

E<--------------->W (Pecos Road)
|<>-(stop sign)
|
| (Desert Foothills)

View to the west is blind due to a slightly rising hill.

Traffic density on Pecos has recently increased dramatically due to a
new freeway section opening several miles to the east.

I have been harping at the city to do something about this unsafe
intersection but was told basically "tough, you're not getting a
traffic light anytime soon and they don't put stop signs on feeders",
but he'd grace my complaint by repainting the white front-edge stripe
(done last Tuesday or Wednesday) and would trim the trees to the west.

Friday night a woman died in an accident there when she was T-boned
trying to get onto Pecos eastbound from Desert Foothills.

My question: What does it cost (purchase and install) for a traffic
light?

I'm going to suggest that the family sue the city for 100X the cost of
a traffic light.

Jim -

By any chance, did you send in your complaint registered mail return receipt
requested? I believe that the way most local jurisdictions work is that they
assume liability, once a complaint has been "officially" registered.

I sent it by E-mail to my city councilman, who acknowledged it and
said he would have the traffic department call me. They did call but
fluffed me off... *not* a good thing to do to the masked avenger ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Mike · Dec 3, 2003

On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 08:26:51 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

I'm going to suggest that the family sue the city for 100X the cost of
a traffic light.

Isn't there a presumed assumption, in a legal sense, that roads and related
infrastructure are inherently dangerous, and that safety is the
responsibility of the driver?

-- Mike --

Jim Thompson · Dec 3, 2003

On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 08:52:43 -0800, Mike <mike@nospam.com> wrote:

On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 08:26:51 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

I'm going to suggest that the family sue the city for 100X the cost of
a traffic light.

Isn't there a presumed assumption, in a legal sense, that roads and related
infrastructure are inherently dangerous, and that safety is the
responsibility of the driver?

-- Mike --

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Mjolinor · Dec 3, 2003

"Jim Thompson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:i95ssvcd9vmu4plob197o3uva8mrneau61@4ax.com...

On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 08:52:43 -0800, Mike <mike@nospam.com> wrote:

On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 08:26:51 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

I'm going to suggest that the family sue the city for 100X the cost of
a traffic light.

Isn't there a presumed assumption, in a legal sense, that roads and
related
infrastructure are inherently dangerous, and that safety is the
responsibility of the driver?

-- Mike --

True. But the city has been previously advised that the intersection
has hazards that can be alleviated.

All hazards can be alleviated, that doesn't mean it makes sense to do it. I
for one would not like a man in front of my car with a red flag but it would
certainly stop most of the fatalities.

Baphomet · Dec 3, 2003

"Mike" <mike@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:c40vnd59tzkv.1c91zest21pha$.dlg@40tude.net...

On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 08:26:51 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

I'm going to suggest that the family sue the city for 100X the cost of
a traffic light.

Isn't there a presumed assumption, in a legal sense, that roads and
related
infrastructure are inherently dangerous, and that safety is the
responsibility of the driver?

-- Mike --

Absolutely, but let's take an extreme example of a sinkhole opening up in
the middle of the street. In most local jurisdictions, once they have been
officially notified, and that usually requires it to be sent snail mail
registered return receipt (no e-mail need apply), any injuries that accrue
due to the localities negligence in performing a timely repair, become
actionable.

In this particular case where an improvement is being sought for safety
reasons, I suspect that you would have to have sufficient documentation as
to a history of previous accidents or near accidents. Then it should
probably be presented to the Planning Board for their consideration. They
forward their findings to the village/town/city board who give it a thumbs
up or down and then pass it on to the Department of Transportation for their
consideration. They are normally very cooperative when a proposal has the
imprimatur of local government.

Proper procedure (and I'm sure it varies somewhat from jurisdiction to
jurisdiction) should be followed so as to allow a minimum of wiggle room for
the bureaucrats to two step their way out of.

Baphomet · Dec 3, 2003

"Mjolinor" <mjolinor@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:O%ozb.404$F57.269@newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net...

"Jim Thompson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:i95ssvcd9vmu4plob197o3uva8mrneau61@4ax.com...
On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 08:52:43 -0800, Mike <mike@nospam.com> wrote:

On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 08:26:51 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

I'm going to suggest that the family sue the city for 100X the cost
of
a traffic light.

Isn't there a presumed assumption, in a legal sense, that roads and
related
infrastructure are inherently dangerous, and that safety is the
responsibility of the driver?

-- Mike --

True. But the city has been previously advised that the intersection
has hazards that can be alleviated.

All hazards can be alleviated, that doesn't mean it makes sense to do it.
I
for one would not like a man in front of my car with a red flag but it
would
certainly stop most of the fatalities.

Unfortunately, stupidity (the biggest hazard of them all) doesn't lend
itself easily to legislation.

Spehro Pefhany · Dec 3, 2003

On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 10:45:56 -0800, the renowned "Baphomet"
<no.spam@no.spam.us> wrote:

for one would not like a man in front of my car with a red flag but it
would
certainly stop most of the fatalities.

Unfortunately, stupidity (the biggest hazard of them all) doesn't lend
itself easily to legislation.

There are also budget issues. It might be nice to get rid of 100% of
all railway level crossings, but it would cost too much for taxpayers.
So they pick what they think are the most dangerous crossings and put
the $millions each into upgrading those first. Aside from the capital
cost, they require maintenance and eventual replacement. At some point
they do have to put a value on a life- if it's going to cost $5M to
upgrade the crossing and one person on average will be killed every 5
years, in a place with an average income of $xxK, maybe it won't get
done.

A hotel I stayed at recently (in Indiana) was located on a service
road beside the interstate. The service road had absolutely no
lighting and ran dead-straight parallel to the interstate until it
made a sudden unusually sharp and poorly marked right turn to curve
down and intersect the cross street. The cross street was somewhat
elevated and shielded by earth etc. so you could not see traffic there
as an indicator. There were five or six different shrines to dead
motorists at the sharp bend.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

Luhan Monat · Dec 3, 2003

Jim Thompson wrote:

I have a "T" intersection near my house.

The "cross" of the "T" has right-of-way with a speed limit of 55, but
usual speeds are 70:

E<--------------->W (Pecos Road)
|<>-(stop sign)
|
| (Desert Foothills)

View to the west is blind due to a slightly rising hill.

Traffic density on Pecos has recently increased dramatically due to a
new freeway section opening several miles to the east.

I have been harping at the city to do something about this unsafe
intersection but was told basically "tough, you're not getting a
traffic light anytime soon and they don't put stop signs on feeders",
but he'd grace my complaint by repainting the white front-edge stripe
(done last Tuesday or Wednesday) and would trim the trees to the west.

Friday night a woman died in an accident there when she was T-boned
trying to get onto Pecos eastbound from Desert Foothills.

My question: What does it cost (purchase and install) for a traffic
light?

I'm going to suggest that the family sue the city for 100X the cost of
a traffic light.

...Jim Thompson

Jim,

A friend of mine tried the same thing in Santa Barbara/CA. She was
finally told that it would take 10 major accidents (or 3 deaths) before
the city would consider puttinging in a traffic signal. That is the
'cost' of putting in a traffic signal in California!

--
Luhan Monat, "LuhanKnows" At 'Yahoo' dot 'Com'
http://members.cox.net/berniekm
"The future is not what it used to be."

Ross Mac · Dec 3, 2003

"Luhan Monat" <shootspammers@random.com> wrote in message
news:zJqzb.57555$m24.48295@fed1read02...

Jim Thompson wrote:
I have a "T" intersection near my house.

The "cross" of the "T" has right-of-way with a speed limit of 55, but
usual speeds are 70:

E<--------------->W (Pecos Road)
|<>-(stop sign)
|
| (Desert Foothills)

View to the west is blind due to a slightly rising hill.

Traffic density on Pecos has recently increased dramatically due to a
new freeway section opening several miles to the east.

I have been harping at the city to do something about this unsafe
intersection but was told basically "tough, you're not getting a
traffic light anytime soon and they don't put stop signs on feeders",
but he'd grace my complaint by repainting the white front-edge stripe
(done last Tuesday or Wednesday) and would trim the trees to the west.

Friday night a woman died in an accident there when she was T-boned
trying to get onto Pecos eastbound from Desert Foothills.

My question: What does it cost (purchase and install) for a traffic
light?

I'm going to suggest that the family sue the city for 100X the cost of
a traffic light.

...Jim Thompson

Jim,

A friend of mine tried the same thing in Santa Barbara/CA. She was
finally told that it would take 10 major accidents (or 3 deaths) before
the city would consider puttinging in a traffic signal. That is the
'cost' of putting in a traffic signal in California!

--
Luhan Monat, "LuhanKnows" At 'Yahoo' dot 'Com'
http://members.cox.net/berniekm
"The future is not what it used to be."

Luhan, you got it...I'm in California too and after several fatalies they

get serious. There used to be a mountain intersection up on Hwy 17 that
connects silicon valley to Santa Cruz. It wasn't until a carload of people,
a mother and her 2 kids was obliterated by a 80,000 lb big rig full of sand
that they put in an overpass. And that was not the only fatality. Of course,
the taxpayers in California, are too busy paying for soundwalls and
overpriced utility commodities to solve problems that cause fatalities!

Ross Mac · Dec 3, 2003

"Ross Mac" <this.is.a.fake@example.invalid> wrote in message
news:eJrzb.146017$Ec1.5846674@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

"Luhan Monat" <shootspammers@random.com> wrote in message
news:zJqzb.57555$m24.48295@fed1read02...
Jim Thompson wrote:
I have a "T" intersection near my house.

The "cross" of the "T" has right-of-way with a speed limit of 55, but
usual speeds are 70:

E<--------------->W (Pecos Road)
|<>-(stop sign)
|
| (Desert Foothills)

View to the west is blind due to a slightly rising hill.

Traffic density on Pecos has recently increased dramatically due to a
new freeway section opening several miles to the east.

I have been harping at the city to do something about this unsafe
intersection but was told basically "tough, you're not getting a
traffic light anytime soon and they don't put stop signs on feeders",
but he'd grace my complaint by repainting the white front-edge stripe
(done last Tuesday or Wednesday) and would trim the trees to the west.

Friday night a woman died in an accident there when she was T-boned
trying to get onto Pecos eastbound from Desert Foothills.

My question: What does it cost (purchase and install) for a traffic
light?

I'm going to suggest that the family sue the city for 100X the cost of
a traffic light.

...Jim Thompson

Jim,

A friend of mine tried the same thing in Santa Barbara/CA. She was
finally told that it would take 10 major accidents (or 3 deaths) before
the city would consider puttinging in a traffic signal. That is the
'cost' of putting in a traffic signal in California!

--
Luhan Monat, "LuhanKnows" At 'Yahoo' dot 'Com'
http://members.cox.net/berniekm
"The future is not what it used to be."

Luhan, you got it...I'm in California too and after several fatalies they
get serious. There used to be a mountain intersection up on Hwy 17 that
connects silicon valley to Santa Cruz. It wasn't until a carload of
people,
a mother and her 2 kids was obliterated by a 80,000 lb big rig full of
sand
that they put in an overpass. And that was not the only fatality. Of
course,
the taxpayers in California, are too busy paying for soundwalls and
overpriced utility commodities to solve problems that cause fatalities!

Oh, by the way, they named the bridge after the dead women...California

politics in action....Arnie has his hands full with this mess!!!

Genome · Dec 3, 2003

"Jim Thompson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:jgvrsvshu9qiii15rtvlo03volum8setvp@4ax.com...

I have a "T" intersection near my house.

...Jim Thompson
--

Congratulations.....

I, otherwise known as the one who is using the keyboard at the moment, seem
to remember that the other one, who is not using the keyboard at the moment
remembers that one, or multiple ones, of your siblings entered the legal
profession, or became accountants. The other one tells me you appeared to be
quite proud about their 'achievements'.

Why not ask them....?

It is interesting to consider the fact that 'Old Folks' used 'the system' to
benefit themselves when they were 'Young Folks'. Now they are 'Old Folks'
they have a sudden desire to manipulate the system to........ benefit
themselves.

And then they moan about it.

Be a true altruist or, shut the fuck up.

DNA

Spehro Pefhany · Dec 3, 2003

On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 21:31:35 -0000, the renowned "Genome"
<genome@nothere.com> wrote:

"Jim Thompson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:jgvrsvshu9qiii15rtvlo03volum8setvp@4ax.com...

I have a "T" intersection near my house.

...Jim Thompson
--

Congratulations.....

I, otherwise known as the one who is using the keyboard at the moment, seem
to remember that the other one, who is not using the keyboard at the moment
remembers that one, or multiple ones, of your siblings entered the legal
profession, or became accountants. The other one tells me you appeared to be
quite proud about their 'achievements'.

Why not ask them....?

It is interesting to consider the fact that 'Old Folks' used 'the system' to
benefit themselves when they were 'Young Folks'. Now they are 'Old Folks'
they have a sudden desire to manipulate the system to........ benefit
themselves.

And then they moan about it.

Be a true altruist or, shut the fuck up.

DNA: Altruism is Evil. Haven't you gotten your dose of Ayn Rand?

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

Jim Thompson · Dec 3, 2003

On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 22:23:33 GMT, Spehro Pefhany
<speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:

On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 21:31:35 -0000, the renowned "Genome"
genome@nothere.com> wrote:
[snip]
Be a true altruist or, shut the fuck up.

DNA: Altruism is Evil. Haven't you gotten your dose of Ayn Rand?

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Genome · Dec 3, 2003

"Jim Thompson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:grossvkn08l9jfg7mp663ek87uf4hs1f34@4ax.com...

On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 22:23:33 GMT, Spehro Pefhany
speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:

On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 21:31:35 -0000, the renowned "Genome"
genome@nothere.com> wrote:
[snip]
Be a true altruist or, shut the fuck up.

DNA: Altruism is Evil. Haven't you gotten your dose of Ayn Rand?

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

DNA/Genome/Whatever is nonexistent in my world.

Everyone should do likewise.

...Jim Thompson

That's why I'm easy...... oh oh oh oh,
I'm easy like Sunday morning........

Two birds.....

DNA

DarkMatter · Dec 4, 2003

On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 08:26:51 -0700, Jim Thompson
<invalid@invalid.invalid> Gave us:

My question: What does it cost (purchase and install) for a traffic
light?

The light and controller could be around $100k. Installing it,
probably twice that, at the rate our illustrious government gold
bricker fucks bill the shit out.

It took 30 years and several deaths for them to do this at an
intersection in northern greater Cincinnati.

They cut away 40 feet of elevation on the hill approach, however.

It was a 55 changing into a forty 300 feet before the light even,
and the shit STILL happened. Flashing red on Pippin, flashing yellow
on Kemper... still no change.

Cost? Probably booked it at a couple million... the bastards. Had
they done it back when it was needed, several people would still be
here, and the cost would have been several hundred k$ less, I'm sure.
If not more.

What gets me is that business, and people pay exorbitant taxes, and
these bastards make $100k plus salaries to NOT get their fucking job
done!

The fucking streets should be paved in gold by now, and schools too!
The bastard suck away millions in perks, for NO WORK DONE!

They suck away millions more in lottery "earnings" and the schools
STILL suck!

I want the same exact constitution and government we have, with an
entirely different crew doing it, and doing it for LESS pay than is
the current level. The lame assed NON-stateman pricks have
practically tripled their salaries in the last ten years.

That's pretty goddamned lame, considering their lackluster
performances.

We should scrutinize the bastards MORE. We have been complacent too
fucking long. People are stupid.

This great, claims to be "intelligent" state of California elected
Ahhnohld. Proof that even smart people can be utter retards.
And utter retards can be thwarted into the limelight and the master
button box based on image alone.

I hope he fails as a lesson to retards that claim to be smart
everywhere.

Cost of a Traffic Signal ??

Jim Thompson

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