Convenience über alles!...

[bitrex]

On 6/1/2022 3:29 AM, Ricky wrote:

I\'ve heard that 87.4% of all statistics are made up! Yeah, when you make up your own statistics, you can prove anything you want.


https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1134702_americans-dont-want-ev-yet-half-wont-pay-extra-for-electrified

5% saw their next vehicle being an EV, the financial incentives to pull
the trigger aren\'t that great.

You are ignorant of the facts. BEVs are selling, limited only by how fast they can make them, literally! Tesla has a months long waiting list. Instead of trying to promote BEVs by selling a lower end model, they\'ve dropped all the cheaper versions, yet people are pounding on their doors with cash in hand! There\'s nothing you can say about people not wanting to drive BEVs.

They\'re selling many other vehicles as fast as they can make them, too,
prices for new vehicles are up across the board. 250,000 pickup trucks
get sold every month in the US IIRC that\'s close to what Tesla sells in
a year in the US.

Difference is Tesla buyers may be pounding on Tesla\'s door cash-in-hand
but the average pickup buyer doesn\'t have cash in hand they\'re taking
out 72, 84 month loans on those and I expect the number of people who\'re
going to default over that timeframe is a lot.

It hardly seems sustainable just from a financial perspective. But
simultaneously the imminent death of the ICE seems exaggerated.

 

[rbowman]

On 06/01/2022 02:08 AM, bitrex wrote:

On 5/31/2022 11:27 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 5/31/2022 7:40 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 05/31/2022 12:00 PM, bitrex wrote:
The roads in many areas of Boston tend to be laid out about where the
carts went, there doesn\'t seem to be a lot of design to it though.

You could do like Denver -- lay out the *grid* along the Platte, then
decide
that a compass points orientation would be smarter!

When you start with a town square that really is an irregular
pentagon things go to hell in a hurry. Then you have to remember the
Back Bay really was a bay and the Fens a tidal marsh. Even the Fens
got redone when they dammed the Charles and it went from brackish to
fresh water.

It adds charm. I enjoyed walking around the town when I had work in
the area. \'Walking is the operant word. I\'d drive down from NH Sunday
night and park the car, only retrieving it to drive home Friday
afternoon.

There\'s really no need to drive *in* Boston as public transit and other
livery services abound. Moreso than many other metro areas.

And, the region is relatively dense. E.g., the core metro area would fit
*in* the city limits of Chicago.

The public transit in Boston is adequate-on-a-good-day at best, and a
nightmare when the system isn\'t having a good day

https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/as-crews-continue-to-work-on-red-line-derailment-damage-commuters-remain-troubled/114667/

https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/red-line-service-down-replaced-with-shuttle-bus/2428171/

https://www.wcvb.com/article/mbta-orange-line-braking-problem-removed-from-service-may-19-2022/40050137

They can\'t even buy new trains and get them to work.

 

[bitrex]

On 6/1/2022 10:25 AM, rbowman wrote:

On 06/01/2022 02:08 AM, bitrex wrote:
On 5/31/2022 11:27 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 5/31/2022 7:40 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 05/31/2022 12:00 PM, bitrex wrote:
The roads in many areas of Boston tend to be laid out about where the
carts went, there doesn\'t seem to be a lot of design to it though.

You could do like Denver -- lay out the *grid* along the Platte, then
decide
that a compass points orientation would be smarter!

When you start with a town square that really is an irregular
pentagon things go to hell in a hurry. Then you have to remember the
Back Bay really was a bay and the Fens a tidal marsh. Even the Fens
got redone when they dammed the Charles and it went from brackish to
fresh water.

It adds charm. I enjoyed walking around the town when I had work in
the area. \'Walking is the operant word. I\'d drive down from NH Sunday
night and park the car, only retrieving it to drive home Friday
afternoon.

There\'s really no need to drive *in* Boston as public transit and other
livery services abound.  Moreso than many other metro areas.

And, the region is relatively dense.  E.g., the core metro area would
fit
*in* the city limits of Chicago.

The public transit in Boston is adequate-on-a-good-day at best, and a
nightmare when the system isn\'t having a good day

https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/as-crews-continue-to-work-on-red-line-derailment-damage-commuters-remain-troubled/114667/


https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/red-line-service-down-replaced-with-shuttle-bus/2428171/


https://www.wcvb.com/article/mbta-orange-line-braking-problem-removed-from-service-may-19-2022/40050137


They can\'t even buy new trains and get them to work.

The Orange Line in particular will be much improved once they get the
bugs out, the Hawker Siddeley cars are almost as old as I am but haven\'t
aged nearly as well.

 

[bitrex]

On 5/31/2022 5:26 PM, Don Y wrote:

On 5/31/2022 10:14 AM, Rich S wrote:
On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 2:52:31 PM UTC, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2022-05-31 01:05, Rich S wrote:
[...] We really need \"inoculation\" at a young age to be
critical thinkers. What schooling & parenting should be...
regards, rs

Disagree. Ideas drilled into you at a young age are
uncritically accepted as beliefs. Critical thinking
comes later. Weak logic and cognitive fallacies are
of all ages, but advanced education helps, even if
it\'s no panacea.

Jeroen Belleman

I agree, partially, Jeroen. To me \"young\" is as \"old\" as 18 y.o.
  Anyway, I hypothesize, we (educators in U.S., in particular)
generally underestimate the age at which the brain
can begin to think critically. True, you don\'t want the
students to be disruptive, and begin challenging everything
being taught.

You can encourage \"free thought\" without inviting outright
challenges to (ahem) \"dogma\".

Even activities like \"choosing a science fair project\"
require some initiative on the part of the student;
what do you want to do and what do you expect to show, etc.

But if we (in U.S.) are treating 18 y.o. as an
adult, legally, with some serious responsibilities and decisions
(that affect them, me, and everyone around them)
then we better prepare them accordingly. Unfortunately
the source for this preparation is increasingly dependent
of the public schools.

And, \"know-better\" legislators want to lay a heavy hand on WHAT
they can be exposed to and, by extension, be able to \"think for
themselves\" about.

Imagine a whole class of people terrified of certain *books*
(likely because you can\'t SHOOT a book!) or *concepts*...

Gotta pity the poor children so constrained in their thoughts.
Wonder what life will be like when they are LATER, exposed to
people (in positions of power/influence) who espouse DIFFERENT
\"beliefs\"?

No time for public education, need to ban pornography, clearly
responsible for low birth rates and the degeneration of our precious
American bodily fluids in general:

<https://www.deseret.com/u-s-world/2022/5/31/23148731/jd-vance-ohio-senate-candidate-pornography-should-be-banned-to-save-families-birth-rate-marriage-us>

Achtung raus! Hup! Raus mein Fuhrer jawohl! Zee good Germans is heah to
save Ameirka.

And public education is next on the chopping block after Roe v Wade, we
have to ensure educators are teaching young women menstrual blood is the
cum of a demon and the devil needs to be beaten out of them to prevent
his cum from getting in there, as is proper, not any of that boring
scientific or medical crap about it. It\'s probably all tainted with the
CRT anyway.

 

[bitrex]

On 5/30/2022 7:36 AM, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 2:12:54 AM UTC+10, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sun, 29 May 2022 15:51:37 +0100, Martin Brown
\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 29/05/2022 14:19, Ricky wrote:

snip

Mining the lithium for the batteries is a nasty business despoiling
various pristine habitats with little concern for the inhabitants.

It can be be. It doesn\'t have to be.

Out of sight out of mind for those that want to pretend that there is no downside to electric vehicles and growth of Lithium batteries. They also end up with radioactive tailings in Peru (or uranium as a by-product).

They can. It is a matter of choice. The fact that uranium deposits were found nearby is a coincidence, and the choice about what to do with them is entirely independent.

https://www.mining-technology.com/analysis/cracking-lithium-triangle-will-new-legislation-open-gates-peru/

You have a strange imagination. Chances are if this technology had been
available back then only the very richest people would ever have had a
car. Until mass production petrol cars were rich men\'s expensive toys.

Battery cars were popular early on. There weren\'t many of them so they were just as expensive as petrol cars.

EVs have proved difficult to mass produce economically.

Twaddle.

Instead, many of us think spoiling our environment is secondary to
our convenience, as if we had a birthright to roaming the earth in
ways that destroy the environment, our \"convenience\" is paramount!
Convenience über alles!

The next generation can pay for it. Politicians can\'t ever see any
further than the next election and often not even that far

Lifespans, nutrition, crop yields, access to education and medical
care, human rights, practically anything you can name keeps getting
better. Oil and gas are major contributors to human well-being.

Oil and gas were major contributors to human well-being. Now that we\'ve burnt enough of them to generate appreciable global warming, the downsides are starting to become more obvious (not that John Larkin wants to know).

snip - reversion to the Middle Ages isn\'t the only choice available

This is a real person with actual power in the US government:

<https://twitter.com/patriottakes/status/1531024532231839744>

“They want to know when you are eating,” she said, \'they want to know if
you are eating a cheeseburger which is very bad because Bill Gates wants
you to eat his fake meat that grows in a peach tree [sic] dish.\'\"

So while we might not have to revert to the Middle Ages, there\'s a
pretty good chance we will.

 

[John Larkin]

On Tue, 31 May 2022 19:02:49 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
wrote:

On Tue, 31 May 2022 14:30:51 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

...
This is fun, St Mary\'s Park.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5mhmlrn456unoto/St_Marys_Park.jpg?raw=1

It\'s amazing that all the houses were built on hillsides, streets with
30% grades, using horses and people to haul wood and bricks.

I just came back from Portugal. Here is a historical example of just
that:

.<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porto#/media/File:Ribera_area_along_the_river_Duoro,_Porto,_Portugal,_2019.jpg


The whole Douro River is like that, only vineyards not buildings. Lots
of olive and almond trees as well. The slopes often exceed 30%, and
it\'s mostly to all hand work.

.<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douro#/media/File:Rio_Douro_-_Portugal_(32615481975)_(cropped).jpg

.<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douro#/media/Fileouro_Valley_Regua.jpg


Joe Gwinn

Looks like you could tip a cow and it would roll all the way down into
the river.

--

If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties.
Francis Bacon

 

[John Larkin]

On Tue, 31 May 2022 20:40:55 -0600, rbowman <bowman@montana.com>
wrote:

On 05/31/2022 12:00 PM, bitrex wrote:
On 5/31/2022 11:05 AM, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 30 May 2022 21:13:30 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 5/29/2022 9:19 AM, Ricky wrote:
What is amazing in the debates over BEV adoption, is the sense of
entitlement.

2,000 years ago, the Romans built pipes of lead and were slowly
poisoned. 200 years ago, we tossed our trash anywhere we felt and
suffered the disease. 100 years ago we mined resources without
regard to the damage done and lived with being slowly poisoned.
Now, all of those things are recognized as being harmful to our
society and none are allowed. It costs us convenience and even
money, but we recognize that it is important to not live in an
environment of filth and waste.

Come the year 2000, we have despoiled our air with the fumes of
toxic auto emissions, released enough CO2 to raise the temperature
of the planet and are on our way to the blackening of the world we
live in, not so different from the poisonous fogs of London. Yet,
so many of us deny this reality and refuse solutions. In
particular, with autos, they act as if spewing noxious emissions for
our personal transportation convenience is a birthright!

There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to
walk. We have reached a point where, if we want to continue to roam
the world in cages of steel and glass, we must abandon the most
poisonous forms of transportation. Even with the existing
regulations, fossil fuels continue to spoil our air and very
importantly, release CO2, the most serious form of pollution in this
century. Meanwhile, we are presented with a paradigm shift that can
resolve much of the impact of our transport plight, the battery
electric vehicle. Yet, so many refuse to consider it, simply
because it is different, with different advantages and different
liabilities.

If this were 120 years ago and we were presented with this sort of
transportation, the world would jump at it and it would have swept
aside all the noxious gas burning autos to become the only form of
land transportation. We would have never known about smog or the
disasters of oil spilling into our water ways, destroying miles of
coastline environments. But mostly, we would all be enjoying the
convenience of battery powered cars.

Instead, many of us think spoiling our environment is secondary to
our convenience, as if we had a birthright to roaming the earth in
ways that destroy the environment, our \"convenience\" is paramount!
Convenience über alles!


\"There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to
walk.\"

Then again, nobody ASKED to be born into a country called the USA that
was designed around the automobile and had much of its public
transportation infrastructure dismantled in favor a long time ago.

No. The USA was \"designed around\" horses and mules and canoes and
sailing ships and wagons. People like to move themselves and their
stuff around. If anything designed our country, it was the collective
personal preferences.

The roads in many areas of Boston tend to be laid out about where the
carts went, there doesn\'t seem to be a lot of design to it though.

When you start with a town square that really is an irregular pentagon
things go to hell in a hurry. Then you have to remember the Back Bay
really was a bay and the Fens a tidal marsh. Even the Fens got redone
when they dammed the Charles and it went from brackish to fresh water.

It adds charm. I enjoyed walking around the town when I had work in the
area. \'Walking is the operant word. I\'d drive down from NH Sunday night
and park the car, only retrieving it to drive home Friday afternoon.

Lots of California towns started with random placed houses, and
streets were declared later, so are a mess. Dutch Flat has nice
straight streets with houses aligned to sidewalks, because every time
it burned down it was rebuilt a little better.

--

If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties.
Francis Bacon

 

[wmartin]

On 6/1/22 01:08, bitrex wrote:

On 5/31/2022 11:27 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 5/31/2022 7:40 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 05/31/2022 12:00 PM, bitrex wrote:
The roads in many areas of Boston tend to be laid out about where the
carts went, there doesn\'t seem to be a lot of design to it though.

You could do like Denver -- lay out the *grid* along the Platte, then
decide
that a compass points orientation would be smarter!

When you start with a town square that really is an irregular
pentagon things go to hell in a hurry. Then you have to remember the
Back Bay really was a bay and the Fens a tidal marsh. Even the Fens
got redone when they dammed the Charles and it went from brackish to
fresh water.

It adds charm. I enjoyed walking around the town when I had work in
the area. \'Walking is the operant word. I\'d drive down from NH Sunday
night and park the car, only retrieving it to drive home Friday
afternoon.

There\'s really no need to drive *in* Boston as public transit and other
livery services abound.  Moreso than many other metro areas.

And, the region is relatively dense.  E.g., the core metro area would fit
*in* the city limits of Chicago.

The public transit in Boston is adequate-on-a-good-day at best, and a
nightmare when the system isn\'t having a good day

Sooo, did Charlie ever get off the MTA?

 

[Don Y]

On 6/1/2022 11:07 AM, wmartin wrote:

On 6/1/22 01:08, bitrex wrote:
On 5/31/2022 11:27 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 5/31/2022 7:40 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 05/31/2022 12:00 PM, bitrex wrote:
The roads in many areas of Boston tend to be laid out about where the
carts went, there doesn\'t seem to be a lot of design to it though.

You could do like Denver -- lay out the *grid* along the Platte, then decide
that a compass points orientation would be smarter!

When you start with a town square that really is an irregular pentagon
things go to hell in a hurry. Then you have to remember the Back Bay really
was a bay and the Fens a tidal marsh. Even the Fens got redone when they
dammed the Charles and it went from brackish to fresh water.

It adds charm. I enjoyed walking around the town when I had work in the
area. \'Walking is the operant word. I\'d drive down from NH Sunday night and
park the car, only retrieving it to drive home Friday afternoon.

There\'s really no need to drive *in* Boston as public transit and other
livery services abound. Moreso than many other metro areas.

And, the region is relatively dense. E.g., the core metro area would fit
*in* the city limits of Chicago.

The public transit in Boston is adequate-on-a-good-day at best, and a
nightmare when the system isn\'t having a good day

Sooo, did Charlie ever get off the MTA?

No (\"He\'ll never return\") -- and, after all that, O\'Brien lost!

 

[Joe Gwinn]

On Wed, 01 Jun 2022 10:16:51 -0700, John Larkin
<jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

On Tue, 31 May 2022 19:02:49 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net
wrote:

On Tue, 31 May 2022 14:30:51 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

...
This is fun, St Mary\'s Park.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5mhmlrn456unoto/St_Marys_Park.jpg?raw=1

It\'s amazing that all the houses were built on hillsides, streets with
30% grades, using horses and people to haul wood and bricks.

I just came back from Portugal. Here is a historical example of just
that:

.<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porto#/media/File:Ribera_area_along_the_river_Duoro,_Porto,_Portugal,_2019.jpg


The whole Douro River is like that, only vineyards not buildings. Lots
of olive and almond trees as well. The slopes often exceed 30%, and
it\'s mostly to all [done by] hand work.

.<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douro#/media/File:Rio_Douro_-_Portugal_(32615481975)_(cropped).jpg

.<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douro#/media/Fileouro_Valley_Regua.jpg


Joe Gwinn

Looks like you could tip a cow and it would roll all the way down into
the river.

Yes. It\'s way too steep and broken for cattle. You do see sheep, and
mountain goats would also work.

Joe Gwinn

 

[Don Y]

On 6/1/2022 7:03 AM, bitrex wrote:

On 6/1/2022 5:11 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 6/1/2022 1:08 AM, bitrex wrote:
On 5/31/2022 11:27 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 5/31/2022 7:40 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 05/31/2022 12:00 PM, bitrex wrote:
The roads in many areas of Boston tend to be laid out about where the
carts went, there doesn\'t seem to be a lot of design to it though.

You could do like Denver -- lay out the *grid* along the Platte, then decide
that a compass points orientation would be smarter!

When you start with a town square that really is an irregular pentagon
things go to hell in a hurry. Then you have to remember the Back Bay
really was a bay and the Fens a tidal marsh. Even the Fens got redone when
they dammed the Charles and it went from brackish to fresh water.

It adds charm. I enjoyed walking around the town when I had work in the
area. \'Walking is the operant word. I\'d drive down from NH Sunday night
and park the car, only retrieving it to drive home Friday afternoon.

There\'s really no need to drive *in* Boston as public transit and other
livery services abound. Moreso than many other metro areas.

And, the region is relatively dense. E.g., the core metro area would fit
*in* the city limits of Chicago.

The public transit in Boston is adequate-on-a-good-day at best, and a
nightmare when the system isn\'t having a good day

I don\'t think you understand how \"nightmarish\" public transit can be ALL
of the time!

E.g., my most common drive is to my volunteer gig. It\'s about 20 minnutes
in a private vehicle.

If I had to rely on public transit (busses, here), it would mean a 1.25 mile
walk to the bus stop -- hopefully timed to arrive just before a bus departs
on the route in which I\'m interested.

Then, a 22 minute (per their schedule) drive to another stop -- where I\'d
wait ~20 minutes (assuming all is going well!) for my connection. Then, a
5 minute drive to the final stop. And a half mile walk to the destination.

At my 4MPH walking pace, that\'s ~25 minutes on foot plus 27 minutes on wheels.
Almost three times longer than my \"drive WHEN it is convenient for me to do so\"
approach. And, having to deal with *sharing* the vehicle with \"others\"...

[And, who knows how I would drag any rescued kit home via the busline!]

Yes, I live far enough from Boston proper that if I wanted to get to South
Station downtown as of 10 AM this morning without using a car or taxi at all my
adventure starts with a 20 minute walk to a bus stop, then a 50 minute bus
ride, then a 35 minute heavy rail train ride.

The trip I described is just over 9 miles -- roughly the distance from Park St
station to Big Joyce Chen\'s (@ Fresh Pond). Note that we occupy ~230 sq mi
(almost exactly the size of Chicago) while Beantown clocks in at under 50
(almost exactly the size of San Francisco). So, *practical* distances here
are considerably larger.

Google sometimes routes me a bit differently with a shorter bus ride and longer
train ride depending on the time of day, but it always ends up suggesting a
trip that takes over 2 hours. By car even in traffic the same trip would take
me 45 minutes tops, it\'s only about 25 miles away I don\'t live _that_ far
outside the city.

Our \"pilgrimage\" is a regular trip to the oriental market. It\'s about
15 driven miles -- 30 minutes. By bus, *90* minutes including two
transfers. (and, of course, you\'re stuck with *their* schedule instead
of your own) And, would have to carry your groceries that 1.25 miles
from the \"local\" bus stop to the house.

But housing closer in within easy striking distance of a light rail station
tends to command a premium price tag.

Our \"light rail\" is confined to downtown/university -- typically only used by
students too lazy to use their legs...

Of course, I have no idea what the MTA is like, now as it\'s been decades
since I\'ve been there. And, I\'ve not a clue as to how Big Dig is mucking
with surface transportation...

The Big Dig has been done for pushing 20 years and made getting in and out of
town by car a _lot_ better, but mucked with public transit in Boston a lot. A
large amount of the debt for that got shoveled off onto the MBTA, circa 2010 a
quarter of the MBTA\'s operating budget was spent on Big Dig debt service.

The system was running really threadbare for many years and it came to a head
in 2014-2015 when the exceptional snowfall of that winter regularly ground the
subway system to a halt, stuff was massively breaking down every week. The
average age of a trainset a decade ago was like 32 years old or something.

The joke was the MBTA\'s general manager Beverly Scott had announced her
resignation \"before the snow had even stopped falling\" which wasn\'t far from
the truth.

As of a few years back they\'ve begun investing more money in track & equipment
upgrades and they\'ve got several hundred new trainsets built in Springfield MA
by Chinese state-owned CRRC (grumble grumble), however they\'re having teething
troubles as new trainsets tend to do:

The mass transit folly, here (besides lack of light rail or other non-bus
transport) is the adoption of the same sorts of vehicles that you would
find in a \"big (dense) city\" where our ridership is considerably lighter
and more geographically varied. A smarter solution would be \"kiddie
busses\" running more frequently and over more routes.

 

[Don Y]

On 6/1/2022 7:05 AM, bitrex wrote:

On 6/1/2022 10:03 AM, bitrex wrote:

Yes, I live far enough from Boston proper that if I wanted to get to South
Station downtown as of 10 AM this morning without using a car or taxi at all
my adventure starts with a 20 minute walk to a bus stop, then a 50 minute bus
ride, then a 35 minute heavy rail train ride.

Google sometimes routes me a bit differently with a shorter bus ride and
longer train ride depending on the time of day, but it always ends up
suggesting a trip that takes over 2 hours. By car even in traffic the same
trip would take me 45 minutes tops

At the absolute peak of weekday rush hour it might take an hour.

Driving (personal vehicle) tends to be pretty quick, here, as the
speed limits \"in town\" are 45MPH (freaks visitors from NYC out!).
But, the distances (*in* town) tend to be longer.

And, there\'s no coherent thought in how the town is laid out
so it\'s not like businesses are in one particular area while
residences are in others.

[There\'s at least one \"community\" that has tried to be self-contained.
They\'re located far enough from everything else that they really have
an incentive to be so! Just *don\'t* need medical care...]

 

[Don Y]

On 6/1/2022 7:15 AM, rbowman wrote:

On 06/01/2022 01:26 AM, bitrex wrote:

If you have an 80 year old rifle and an \'86 pickup you\'re not the type
to trade them in anyway, you are likely an old-junk hoarder like Sanford
& Son, saving rusty screws in a jar too.

https://youtu.be/FUjWYm8bh8U

Or, someone who figures \"if it ain\'t broke...\".

How long do you \"keep\" a love interest?

I miss Red Green. That, Austin City Limits, and a few other programs on PBS are
about my only TV consumption.

Meh. A little RG goes a LONG way (how many ways can you tell the same joke?)

We abandoned broadcast TV (and cable) many years ago. Occasionally, we will
try to catch The Evening Commercials as they sometimes have a few minutes
of news and weather interspersed.

But, once you start *reading* the news stories (from the same broadcasters)
on-line... and realize that each \"story\" is a mere three sentences... <shrug>

The TV is now a giant DVD player -- our local library has ~8000 titles so
we\'ve usually got 20+ \"on hold\" along with a dozen or two at home.
(and, if you treat it as \"entertainment\", then rewatching SOME films is
perfectly acceptable -- esp if you \"watch\" with your ears while your
eyes are busy with other things!)

 

[Martin Brown]

On 30/05/2022 12:36, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 2:12:54 AM UTC+10, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sun, 29 May 2022 15:51:37 +0100, Martin Brown
\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 29/05/2022 14:19, Ricky wrote:

snip

Mining the lithium for the batteries is a nasty business despoiling
various pristine habitats with little concern for the inhabitants.

It can be be. It doesn\'t have to be.

It is pretty bad at the moment. Like a gold rush.

Out of sight out of mind for those that want to pretend that there is no downside to electric vehicles and growth of Lithium batteries. They also end up with radioactive tailings in Peru (or uranium as a by-product).

They can. It is a matter of choice. The fact that uranium deposits were found nearby is a coincidence, and the choice about what to do with them is entirely independent.

https://www.mining-technology.com/analysis/cracking-lithium-triangle-will-new-legislation-open-gates-peru/

You have a strange imagination. Chances are if this technology had been
available back then only the very richest people would ever have had a
car. Until mass production petrol cars were rich men\'s expensive toys.

Battery cars were popular early on. There weren\'t many of them so they were just as expensive as petrol cars.

Evidence for this? They had a false dawn around 1910 but then were
outpaced at every turn by the internal combustion engine. Until the
advent of modern Nd magnetic materials and lithium batteries they were
always in very real trouble for power to weight ratio.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378765/worth-the-watt-a-brief-history-of-the-electric-car-1830-to-present/

Battery and motor technology were just not really up to it until
comparatively recently. UK had daily milk delivery vehicles powered by
lead acid cells when I was young but that was about it as far as
electric vehicles went. (advantage of nearly silent operation)

Trams were OK because they could avoid carrying the battery weight.

Instead, many of us think spoiling our environment is secondary to
our convenience, as if we had a birthright to roaming the earth in
ways that destroy the environment, our \"convenience\" is paramount!
Convenience über alles!

The next generation can pay for it. Politicians can\'t ever see any
further than the next election and often not even that far

Lifespans, nutrition, crop yields, access to education and medical
care, human rights, practically anything you can name keeps getting
better. Oil and gas are major contributors to human well-being.

Oil and gas were major contributors to human well-being. Now that we\'ve burnt enough of them to generate appreciable global warming, the downsides are starting to become more obvious (not that John Larkin wants to know).

snip - reversion to the Middle Ages isn\'t the only choice available

In practice it might well be at least for all but the richest people.

Energy is going to be very expensive now and for the foreseeable future.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[bitrex]

On 6/1/2022 4:49 PM, Martin Brown wrote:

Evidence for this? They had a false dawn around 1910 but then were
outpaced at every turn by the internal combustion engine. Until the
advent of modern Nd magnetic materials and lithium batteries they were
always in very real trouble for power to weight ratio.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378765/worth-the-watt-a-brief-history-of-the-electric-car-1830-to-present/


Battery and motor technology were just not really up to it until
comparatively recently. UK had daily milk delivery vehicles powered by
lead acid cells when I was young but that was about it as far as
electric vehicles went. (advantage of nearly silent operation)

Trams were OK because they could avoid carrying the battery weight.

Wow, were the milk trucks run on battery so they wouldn\'t disturb
residents early in the morning?

That\'s different than how things are in the US where all service
vehicles that come thru your neighborhood early in the morning seem to
try to make as much noise as they can unless your neighborhood\'s median
income is 100 grand or over

 

[bitrex]

On 5/31/2022 10:40 PM, rbowman wrote:

\"There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to
walk.\"

Then again, nobody ASKED to be born into a country called the USA that
was designed around the automobile and had much of its public
transportation infrastructure dismantled in favor a long time ago.

No. The USA was \"designed around\" horses and mules and canoes and
sailing ships and wagons. People like to move themselves and their
stuff around. If anything designed our country, it was the collective
personal preferences.

The roads in many areas of Boston tend to be laid out about where the
carts went, there doesn\'t seem to be a lot of design to it though.

When you start with a town square that really is an irregular pentagon
things go to hell in a hurry. Then you have to remember the Back Bay
really was a bay and the Fens a tidal marsh. Even the Fens got redone
when they dammed the Charles and it went from brackish to fresh water.

It adds charm. I enjoyed walking around the town when I had work in the
area. \'Walking is the operant word. I\'d drive down from NH Sunday night
and park the car, only retrieving it to drive home Friday afternoon.

The \"charm\" also then tends to mean nobody wants anything built in or
near their charming neighborhood.

Housing in San Francisco and Boston proper is a terrible value for what
you get, this $448/month unit in Tokyo (also some of the most expensive
real estate in the world) is fantastic for the rent.

<https://youtu.be/ooh1aoEJKZc?t=732>


You\'d be hard-pressed to find anything as nice within the Boston city
limits for three times the price.

 

[Clifford Heath]

On 2/6/22 07:08, bitrex wrote:

On 6/1/2022 4:49 PM, Martin Brown wrote:

Evidence for this? They had a false dawn around 1910 but then were
outpaced at every turn by the internal combustion engine. Until the
advent of modern Nd magnetic materials and lithium batteries they were
always in very real trouble for power to weight ratio.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378765/worth-the-watt-a-brief-history-of-the-electric-car-1830-to-present/


Battery and motor technology were just not really up to it until
comparatively recently. UK had daily milk delivery vehicles powered by
lead acid cells when I was young but that was about it as far as
electric vehicles went. (advantage of nearly silent operation)

Trams were OK because they could avoid carrying the battery weight.

Wow, were the milk trucks run on battery so they wouldn\'t disturb
residents early in the morning?

That\'s different than how things are in the US where all service
vehicles that come thru your neighborhood early in the morning seem to
try to make as much noise as they can unless your neighborhood\'s median
income is 100 grand or over

I still remember the 5:30AM clip-clop of the horse-drawn milkcart and
the clink of glass bottles as the milkman called Whoooah or g\'up to the
horse to keep pace. It wasn\'t a noise that woke me, or an unpleasant
sound if I was awake already.

Clifford Heath.

 

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 09:28:04 +1000, Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net>
wrote:

On 2/6/22 07:08, bitrex wrote:
On 6/1/2022 4:49 PM, Martin Brown wrote:

Evidence for this? They had a false dawn around 1910 but then were
outpaced at every turn by the internal combustion engine. Until the
advent of modern Nd magnetic materials and lithium batteries they were
always in very real trouble for power to weight ratio.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378765/worth-the-watt-a-brief-history-of-the-electric-car-1830-to-present/


Battery and motor technology were just not really up to it until
comparatively recently. UK had daily milk delivery vehicles powered by
lead acid cells when I was young but that was about it as far as
electric vehicles went. (advantage of nearly silent operation)

Trams were OK because they could avoid carrying the battery weight.

Wow, were the milk trucks run on battery so they wouldn\'t disturb
residents early in the morning?

That\'s different than how things are in the US where all service
vehicles that come thru your neighborhood early in the morning seem to
try to make as much noise as they can unless your neighborhood\'s median
income is 100 grand or over

I still remember the 5:30AM clip-clop of the horse-drawn milkcart and
the clink of glass bottles as the milkman called Whoooah or g\'up to the
horse to keep pace. It wasn\'t a noise that woke me, or an unpleasant
sound if I was awake already.

Clifford Heath.

My dad was a milkman. I used to help him run his route on Saturday,
starting about 4 AM.

He said that he was really teaching me to work hard in school so I
wouldn\'t be stuck in a job like his. It worked.

--

If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties.
Francis Bacon

 

[rbowman]

On 06/01/2022 02:37 AM, Don Y wrote:

OTOH, *storing* a car was always tedious -- esp if you didn\'t have a
driveway
or parking area set aside for your use (on both ends of the trip).

When I worked direct for a company in Cambridge and got restless we had
the \'what would it take to keep you?\' conversation. My answer was a card
for the indoor parking garage. They had a uncontrolled lot down the
street but I was driving a Firebird. They had a bad way of going missing
in Boston.

A friend went through two Healey 3000\'s that were stolen and got sick of
the hassle so he bought a Volvo sedan. That got stolen too but at least
that one was recovered.

 

[Don Y]

On 6/1/2022 1:49 PM, Martin Brown wrote:

On 30/05/2022 12:36, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 2:12:54 AM UTC+10,
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sun, 29 May 2022 15:51:37 +0100, Martin Brown
\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 29/05/2022 14:19, Ricky wrote:

snip

Mining the lithium for the batteries is a nasty business despoiling
various pristine habitats with little concern for the inhabitants.

It can be be. It doesn\'t have to be.

It is pretty bad at the moment. Like a gold rush.

Out of sight out of mind for those that want to pretend that there is no
downside to electric vehicles and growth of Lithium batteries. They also
end up with radioactive tailings in Peru (or uranium as a by-product).

They can. It is a matter of choice. The fact that uranium deposits were found
nearby is a coincidence, and the choice about what to do with them is
entirely independent.
https://www.mining-technology.com/analysis/cracking-lithium-triangle-will-new-legislation-open-gates-peru/


You have a strange imagination. Chances are if this technology had been
available back then only the very richest people would ever have had a
car. Until mass production petrol cars were rich men\'s expensive toys.

Battery cars were popular early on. There weren\'t many of them so they were
just as expensive as petrol cars.

Evidence for this? They had a false dawn around 1910 but then were outpaced at
every turn by the internal combustion engine. Until the advent of modern Nd
magnetic materials and lithium batteries they were always in very real trouble
for power to weight ratio.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378765/worth-the-watt-a-brief-history-of-the-electric-car-1830-to-present/


Battery and motor technology were just not really up to it until comparatively
recently. UK had daily milk delivery vehicles powered by lead acid cells when I
was young but that was about it as far as electric vehicles went. (advantage of
nearly silent operation)

Trams were OK because they could avoid carrying the battery weight.

Instead, many of us think spoiling our environment is secondary to
our convenience, as if we had a birthright to roaming the earth in
ways that destroy the environment, our \"convenience\" is paramount!
Convenience über alles!

The next generation can pay for it. Politicians can\'t ever see any
further than the next election and often not even that far

Lifespans, nutrition, crop yields, access to education and medical
care, human rights, practically anything you can name keeps getting
better. Oil and gas are major contributors to human well-being.

Oil and gas were major contributors to human well-being. Now that we\'ve burnt
enough of them to generate appreciable global warming, the downsides are
starting to become more obvious (not that John Larkin wants to know).

snip - reversion to the Middle Ages isn\'t the only choice available

In practice it might well be at least for all but the richest people.

Energy is going to be very expensive now and for the foreseeable future.

\"Very?\" <shrug> Energy is relatively cheap (US).

And, there are things that manufacturers can do to increase
energy *efficiency* (whether a response to a market demand
or legislative action).

I suspect the bigger problem is going to be water -- and, to
a lesser (in terms of how widespread) extent, foodstuffs.
There\'s not much that can be done to \"make more\" or \"need less\"
(though lots of waste in the US that could be addressed).

The populations that haven;\'t had to worry about these issues
will likely feel very \"inconvenienced\" by them.