Chip with simple program for Toy

[Robert Monsen]

Rich Grise wrote:

On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 18:50:31 +0000, Guy Macon wrote:


Rich Grise wrote:


But I still say that applying electric shocks doesn't sound like the best
way to do things.

Hey! How about some of those microphonic/piezoelectric SMT caps? ;-)

Now *that's* an interesting idea!

I think that I could localize a small mechanical buzzer a lot better
that I could localize a shock. I wonder whether a frequency-of-
buzzing to color-of-image maping would be beneficial.

You know, the government likes to give grants to anyone who works
on technology to assist the handicapped...


At least three times now, I've wasted a day trying to track down that "get
a grant" stuff. I think the bottom line on that is that you have to be
some politician's brother-in-law or something.

Matt Lesko (http://www.lesko.com/adlink7/)

--
Regards,
Robert Monsen

"Your Highness, I have no need of this hypothesis."
- Pierre Laplace (1749-1827), to Napoleon,
on why his works on celestial mechanics make no mention of God.

 

[Rich Grise]

On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 21:23:07 +0000, John Woodgate wrote:

I read in sci.electronics.design that Rich Grise <rich@example.net
wrote (in <pan.2004.12.11.20.08.01.84576@example.net&gt about 'AN:
GuruGram #39', on Sat, 11 Dec 2004:

It seems we're just going to have to sit down and try to reach a
consensus. Who's in charge here, voltage or current? (pun unintended,
but noted.) ;-)

The voltage is there even if the wire is not part of a complete circuit.
Can I do Faraday's equation in ASCII art?

/ / /
| d | |
O e dl = - - | | B dA
| dt| |
/ / /

e is the element of induced voltage
B is the induction
A is the area within which B exists

Some of the puzzles depend on people forgetting that B, A or both may
vary with time.

Having never heard of Farady's equation, I looked it up, and am now more
confused than before:
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22faraday%27s+equation%22&btnG=Google+Search

And I flunked out of school because I couldn't grasp calculus. I get the
concept of the integral - it's the area under the curve. The double
integral, that's conceptually the inverse of the second derivatave, right?
The integral of the integral(s)? Other than that, I'm lost. But I do have
the impression that Faraday's equation has something to do with the
interaction of magnetic fields and electric current, is this close?

Thanks,
Rich
(and don't worry - I'm not asking for anybody to try to teach me calculus! )

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 08:12:54 GMT, the renowned Rich Grise
<rich@example.net> wrote:

On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 21:23:07 +0000, John Woodgate wrote:

I read in sci.electronics.design that Rich Grise <rich@example.net
wrote (in <pan.2004.12.11.20.08.01.84576@example.net&gt about 'AN:
GuruGram #39', on Sat, 11 Dec 2004:

It seems we're just going to have to sit down and try to reach a
consensus. Who's in charge here, voltage or current? (pun unintended,
but noted.) ;-)

The voltage is there even if the wire is not part of a complete circuit.
Can I do Faraday's equation in ASCII art?

/ / /
| d | |
O e dl = - - | | B dA
| dt| |
/ / /

e is the element of induced voltage
B is the induction
A is the area within which B exists

Some of the puzzles depend on people forgetting that B, A or both may
vary with time.

Having never heard of Farady's equation, I looked it up, and am now more
confused than before:
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22faraday%27s+equation%22&btnG=Google+Search

And I flunked out of school because I couldn't grasp calculus. I get the
concept of the integral - it's the area under the curve. The double
integral, that's conceptually the inverse of the second derivatave, right?
The integral of the integral(s)? Other than that, I'm lost. But I do have
the impression that Faraday's equation has something to do with the
interaction of magnetic fields and electric current, is this close?

Thanks,
Rich
(and don't worry - I'm not asking for anybody to try to teach me calculus! )

The integral symbol on the left has a circle in the middle- it's a
*line integral* (around a closed path). The other is a *surface
integral*. There's an old (ca. 1973) little paperback book you may be
able to find called "Div, Grad, Curl, And All That", which goes into
this vector calculus stuff in more detail without being any more
stuffy than necessary.

For example,
CARLO BARONCINI
125 NORTH PARKER STREET, SAN PEDRO, CA
$11.98

Or you can probably find all the pieces to the puzzle on the net, one
way or the other.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlog
DOTyou.knowwhat> wrote (in <cc1or05455lgmndmut41derql23i8v6ahe@4ax.com&gt
about 'AN: GuruGram #39', on Sun, 12 Dec 2004:

The integral symbol on the left has a circle in the middle- it's a *line
integral* (around a closed path).

Yes, that's a little paradoxical, because the voltage is there even if
the path isn't closed insofar as appreciable current can flow. For
example, you can measure it on the 200 mV range of a DMM, which has an
almost infinite input impedance, and by extrapolation it would still be
there if the impedance were really infinite.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

 

[Bob Masta]

On 12 Dec 2004 16:00:58 GMT, Hans-Bernhard Broeker
<broeker@physik.rwth-aachen.de> wrote:

Seconded. Keeping in mind that our nerves themselves are operating
based on electricity, I suspect that the basic rule of thumb is:
there's no such thing as safe electrostimulation of sensory nerves.
Your stimulus can either be too weak for anything to be registered at
all, or too strong to be safe.

The margin between these two thresholds on stimulus strength is
probably too small to be safe for everyday usage other than in a
*very* closely controlled environment (say, within shouting distance
of an ICU, with trained medical personnel controlling the apparatus,
given a rather specific medical indication for doing it).

I recall from my bioengineering neuroscience class a
discussion of touch-sensing neurons becoming desensitized
from overstimulation. The classic example was the "glass harmonica"
player of (I think) late 1800s. The device was a series of disks of
different diameters and/or thicknesses that rotated on a shaft.
There may have been some mechanism to keep the rims wetted.
The performer played this by lightly touching the rims with his
fingertips, producing sound like you get from running a wet finger
around the rim of a wineglass. The story is that the real virtuoso
perfomers, who played a lot, eventually lost sensation in their
fingertips. This was apparently only due to overstimulation, since
there was no obvious tissue damage at the surface.

On a personal note, I used a "cheater" method of wood carving
many years ago. I would put a rotary file bit in a high-speed
die grinder (like a Dremel on steroids, or a long skinny router)
and carve away. This made carving a breeze, but after a half
hour or so of carving, I found my fingertips had a very strange
sensation. Even with everything turned off, there was still
a tingling. The strangest part was that if I tapped on something,
it felt like my fingers were little tuning forks... they seemed to
"ring" for a few seconds afterward.

Probably just as well I never made a career of this!

Best regards,



Bob Masta
dqatechATdaqartaDOTcom

D A Q A R T A
Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis
www.daqarta.com

 

[Keith Wootten]

In message <41b6f241$1_1@news.ecore.net>, Roland Zitzke
<FODVRUTMSTJC@spammotel.com> writes

"Denis Gleeson" <dgleeson-2@utvinternet.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:184c35f9.0412040855.6a4a25df@posting.google.com...
the possibility of allowing the identification of items through a
persons sense of touch.


Since the late 1970s there were devices available called Optacons.
http://www.nfbae.ca/publications/index.php?id=375

Unfortunatly this technology has disappeared from the market. It essencially
consists of a neadle array (20 x 5) where such trigger is stimmulated by
vibrating certain sets of these pins at a time.
This in fact allows detailed pattern recognition without the effect of
distress on the finger.
I am using such device for 25 years now myself and as an engineer I am
constantly looking for techniques to replace / rebuilt it.

<Snip>

I wonder if single line of (say) 16 small needles with 16 photodiodes
(or whatever) controlling them would work? Rather than move your finger
across a fixed array of pins, you have the line of pin/sensors fixed to
your finger and move the line across the object.

Some years ago I tried the electrical stimulation technique but found it
impossible to set a useable frequency/voltage/current. Only small
changes in pressure or moistness varied the stimulus between
undetectable and painful.

Cheers
--
Keith Wootten

 

Regarding safety:

Keith Wootten wrote:

Some years ago I tried the electrical stimulation technique but found
it
impossible to set a useable frequency/voltage/current. Only small
changes in pressure or moistness varied the stimulus between
undetectable and painful.

and Hans-Bernhard Broeker wrote:

I suspect that the basic rule of thumb is:
there's no such thing as safe electrostimulation of sensory nerves.
Your stimulus can either be too weak for anything to be registered at
all, or too strong to be safe.

Neural stimulation can be done safely, though special care is certainly
indicated -- as is keeping well away from the heart, unless you're an
EMT or a cardiologist!

In the U.S. there are devices approved by the FDA, for use (including
home use) for treating chronic pain. Googling
TENS neural stimulation will produce many hits on such. An earlier
poster alluded to 5 mA, and this is in the range mentioned in several
biomedical Eng. texts. That's a rough ballpark, though it doesn't take
into account electrode area, and thus current density. It does,
however, point toward a key aspect of doing this reasonably safety --
controlling the current, very important, given the wide variations in
resistance.

Interested readers may wish to read a related thread on
sci.electronics.design,
thread title "Bipolar current source for muscle stimulations"
(started 23Oct2004.) This thread includes a schematic for delivering a
controlled (bipolar) current, submitted by the estimable Winfield Hill.
-- Larry Pfeffer
(larry underscore pfeffer at verizon dot com)

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that Jamie <jamie_5_not_valid_after_5_P
lease@charter.net> wrote (in <vkGvd.4576$8n.2575@fe06.lga&gt about
'Circuit that produces a tingling sensation in the fingers.', on Tue, 14
Dec 2004:

John Woodgate wrote:

I read in sci.electronics.design that Nicholas O. Lindan <see@sig.com
wrote (in <zwEvd.4831$Yj4.2677@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net&gt about
'Circuit that produces a tingling sensation in the fingers.', on Tue, 14
Dec 2004:


There is no such thing as no such thing.


Quite right. Now I have a special bargain for you. A hundred $6 bills
for $500.
Hmm. thats a deal! is 100 all you have in stock!

Absolutely not. (;-)

--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that Roger Johansson <no-email@home.se>
wrote (in <Xns95C094F46393D86336@130.133.1.4&gt about 'Circuit that
produces a tingling sensation in the fingers.', on Wed, 15 Dec 2004:

Paul Burke <paul@scazon.com> wrote:

John Woodgate wrote:

Sorry, I can only accept four $125 bills, or three Ł133.33 bills.

Discount eh?

You have to realize that John Woodgate is so old that when he learned the
multiplication table it was still very new, and still contained some
faulty results. The multiplication tables have been debugged since then.


I really didn't want to explain, but I suppose I must. The $133.33 bills

are much rarer, and sell to collectors at over $2500 each.

I'd even accept a genuine 1952 English penny.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

 

[Roger Johansson]

Paul Burke <paul@scazon.com> wrote:

You have to realize that John Woodgate is so old that when he learned
the
multiplication table it was still very new, and still contained some
faulty results. The multiplication tables have been debugged since
then.

John, like myself, was taught the tables in an age when you had to be
prepared to change base several times within a single problem. 12d =
1s, 20s = Ł1, 21s = 1 guinea. A Ł133/6/8d note would not have been
surprising back then.

His lame defence surprised me, I thought he would say something like this:

"Well, I was the chairman of the committee which set up the multiplication
tables, and the other guys on that committee messed it up."

Then he would try to blame his old friends, Euclid, Pythagoras, Archimedes,
and those arabs with names you cannot pronounce, like Al-Khowarismi
(AKA mr. Algoritm) who wrote the book Kitab al-jabr wa al-muqabalah,
(al-jabr was later pronounced as "algebra").



--
Roger J.

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that Paul Burke <paul@scazon.com> wrote
(in <32b154F3k64i0U1@individual.net&gt about 'Circuit that produces a
tingling sensation in the fingers.', on Wed, 15 Dec 2004:

Roger Johansson wrote:
You have to realize that John Woodgate is so old that when he
learned the
multiplication table it was still very new, and still contained some
faulty results. The multiplication tables have been debugged since then.

John, like myself, was taught the tables in an age when you had to be
prepared to change base several times within a single problem. 12d = 1s,
20s = Ł1, 21s = 1 guinea. A Ł133/6/8d note would not have been
surprising back then.

We also had to convert from Ł133/6/8 to Ł133.33 *mentally* and Ł24.737
to Ł24/14/8 and three farthings as well. Mental calculation in base 960.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that Roger Johansson <no-email@home.se>
wrote (in <Xns95C0A6BD2A15286336@130.133.1.4&gt about 'Circuit that
produces a tingling sensation in the fingers.', on Wed, 15 Dec 2004:

His lame defence surprised me, I thought he would say something like
this:

"Well, I was the chairman of the committee which set up the
multiplication tables, and the other guys on that committee messed it
up."

I never blame other people, even though it's always their fault. And I
meant it about the penny, but not the Ł15 copies you can buy on the web.
A real one would produce a tingling sensation in anybody's fingers. (;-)
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

 

[John Fields]

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:07:20 +0000, John Woodgate
<jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote:

I never blame other people, even though it's always their fault. And I
meant it about the penny, but not the Ł15 copies you can buy on the web.
A real one would produce a tingling sensation in anybody's fingers. (;-)

---
Much like one of our 1913 Liberty Head nickles?

--
John Fields

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that John Fields <jfields@austininstrum
ents.com> wrote (in <9np0s01f8m3qgaoifcr41k1flmda1mpjvo@4ax.com&gt about
'Circuit that produces a tingling sensation in the fingers.', on Wed, 15
Dec 2004:

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:07:20 +0000, John Woodgate
jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote:

I never blame other people, even though it's always their fault. And I
meant it about the penny, but not the Ł15 copies you can buy on the web.
A real one would produce a tingling sensation in anybody's fingers. (;-)

---
Much like one of our 1913 Liberty Head nickles?

Not in the same ball-park.(;-) There are five known nickels, but there

is only ONE known 1952 English penny.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

 

[Rich The Philosophizer]

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 14:11:46 +0000, John Woodgate wrote:

I read in sci.electronics.design that Roger Johansson <no-email@home.se
wrote (in <Xns95C094F46393D86336@130.133.1.4&gt about 'Circuit that
produces a tingling sensation in the fingers.', on Wed, 15 Dec 2004:
Paul Burke <paul@scazon.com> wrote:

John Woodgate wrote:

Sorry, I can only accept four $125 bills, or three Ł133.33 bills.

Discount eh?

You have to realize that John Woodgate is so old that when he learned the
multiplication table it was still very new, and still contained some
faulty results. The multiplication tables have been debugged since then.


I really didn't want to explain, but I suppose I must. The $133.33 bills
are much rarer, and sell to collectors at over $2500 each.

I'd even accept a genuine 1952 English penny.

From the side thread, it sort of sounds like that should be, "_the_
genuine 1952 English penny." ;-)

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Keith Williams]

In article <pan.2004.12.15.18.04.20.597123@neodruid.org>,
null@example.net says...

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:53:06 +0000, John Woodgate wrote:

I read in sci.electronics.design that Paul Burke <paul@scazon.com> wrote
(in <32b154F3k64i0U1@individual.net&gt about 'Circuit that produces a
tingling sensation in the fingers.', on Wed, 15 Dec 2004:
Roger Johansson wrote:
You have to realize that John Woodgate is so old that when he
learned the
multiplication table it was still very new, and still contained some
faulty results. The multiplication tables have been debugged since
then.

John, like myself, was taught the tables in an age when you had to be
prepared to change base several times within a single problem. 12d = 1s,
20s = Ł1, 21s = 1 guinea. A Ł133/6/8d note would not have been
surprising back then.

We also had to convert from Ł133/6/8 to Ł133.33 *mentally* and Ł24.737
to Ł24/14/8 and three farthings as well. Mental calculation in base 960.

I've heard that in England, they spend a semester learning to make change,
but weights and measures are done in a day (metric). In the US, it's the
other way around.

It took me a while to get used to their FSF[*] system.

Well, before they decimalized the pound.

Ten ounces to the pound?


[*] - Furlong Stone Fortnight


--
Keith

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that Rich The Philosophizer
<null@example.net> wrote (in <pan.2004.12.15.18.04.20.597123@neodruid.or
g&gt about 'Circuit that produces a tingling sensation in the fingers.',
on Wed, 15 Dec 2004:

I've heard that in England, they spend a semester learning to make
change, but weights and measures are done in a day (metric). In the US,
it's the other way around.

Well, before they decimalized the pound.

No, we kept avoirdupois long after dismalization. In fact, we are still
getting people prosecuted for selling potatoes in pounds instead of
units of 454 grams.

I don't know whether the kids are taught hexadecimal or '16 ounces = 1
pound'.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that Rich The Philosophizer
<null@example.net> wrote (in <pan.2004.12.15.18.07.49.539722@neodruid.or
g&gt about 'Circuit that produces a tingling sensation in the fingers.',
on Wed, 15 Dec 2004:

From the side thread, it sort of sounds like that should be, "_the_
genuine 1952 English penny." ;-)

I was careful to say that only one example is KNOWN. I believe there are
alleged to be up to five more out there somewhere. They were not issued
in Britain, but in the then British islands in the Caribbean.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

 

[Rich Grise]

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 13:59:29 -0500, Keith Williams wrote:

In article <pan.2004.12.15.18.04.20.597123@neodruid.org>, null@example.net
says...
On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:53:06 +0000, John Woodgate wrote:

I read in sci.electronics.design that Paul Burke <paul@scazon.com
wrote (in <32b154F3k64i0U1@individual.net&gt about 'Circuit that
produces a tingling sensation in the fingers.', on Wed, 15 Dec 2004:
Roger Johansson wrote:
You have to realize that John Woodgate is so old that when he
learned the
multiplication table it was still very new, and still contained some
faulty results. The multiplication tables have been debugged since
then.

John, like myself, was taught the tables in an age when you had to be
prepared to change base several times within a single problem. 12d =
1s, 20s = Ł1, 21s = 1 guinea. A Ł133/6/8d note would not have been
surprising back then.

We also had to convert from Ł133/6/8 to Ł133.33 *mentally* and
Ł24.737 to Ł24/14/8 and three farthings as well. Mental calculation
in base 960.

I've heard that in England, they spend a semester learning to make
change, but weights and measures are done in a day (metric). In the US,
it's the other way around.

It took me a while to get used to their FSF[*] system.

Well, before they decimalized the pound.

Ten ounces to the pound?

Oh, you Brits and your British Humour! Of course, if I'd said, "Pound

Sterling," neither of you would have had this opportunity. I hope you
appreciate it! ;-)

Cheers!
Rich
> [*] - Furlong Stone Fortnight

 

[Rich Grise]

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 19:14:38 +0000, John Woodgate wrote:

I read in sci.electronics.design that Rich The Philosophizer
null@example.net> wrote (in <pan.2004.12.15.18.07.49.539722@neodruid.or
g&gt about 'Circuit that produces a tingling sensation in the fingers.', on
Wed, 15 Dec 2004:
From the side thread, it sort of sounds like that should be, "_the_
genuine 1952 English penny." ;-)

I was careful to say that only one example is KNOWN. I believe there are
alleged to be up to five more out there somewhere. They were not issued in
Britain, but in the then British islands in the Caribbean.

Back in the 1970's I had heard that the "Joseph W. Barr" $1.00 bill was
worth something on the collector market because it was so rare. I was in
Okinawa at the time, in the USAF, where they spent dollars, since it was
an "American Protectorate" or something. It turns out that that's were all
of the Barr dollars went. I collected about two hundred of them to take
home and cash in, but apparently so did every other GI that came home from
Oki that year. )-;

Cheers!
Rich